1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 28 Jun 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 357       Contents:> RE: Education Ministry rethinks payroll plans (Oracle and VMS)P EXECSTACKPAGES? (Was  Re: Oops! (Was: Re: Stacks, Static, Item Lists, Modes and P Re: EXECSTACKPAGES? (Was  Re: Oops! (Was: Re: Stacks, Static, Item Lists, Modes  Re: Floating point questions Re: Floating point questions Re: Floating point questions Re: Floating point questions Re: Floating point questions Re: Floating point questionsP Re: How to run program in background. How to list my processies and kill a runniP Re: How to run program in background. How to list my processies and kill a runni How to set LOCKIDTBL?  Re: How to set LOCKIDTBL? / It's not personal (Was: Re: APACHE$PRIVILEDGED) ) Re: New OpenVMS Virtualization Whitepaper ) RE: New OpenVMS Virtualization Whitepaper ' Re: ntpdate fails after VMS 8.2 upgrade ' Re: ntpdate fails after VMS 8.2 upgrade # Re: Open VMS OS recovery on Itanium ' Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarked  Re: Proxy Server for OpenVMS? 6 Reader's Digest version? (Was: Re: APACHE$PRIVILEDGED) SFTP Output redirection  Re: SFTP Output redirection  Re: SFTP Output redirection  TCPIP question Re: TCPIP question Re: TCPIP question# Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support # Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support # Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support # Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support # Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support # Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support # Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support # Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support # Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support # Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support # Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support # Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support ' VMS V4.7 Distribution needed for 11/730 + Re: VMS V4.7 Distribution needed for 11/730 + Re: VMS V4.7 Distribution needed for 11/730 + Re: VMS V4.7 Distribution needed for 11/730   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:10:24 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> G Subject: RE: Education Ministry rethinks payroll plans (Oracle and VMS) T Message-ID: <FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684016648AA@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----= > From: dooleys@snowy.net.au [mailto:dooleys@snowy.net.au]=20  > Sent: June 27, 2006 12:31 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ; > Subject: Re: Education Ministry rethinks payroll plans=20  > (Oracle and VMS) >=20 >=20 > Doug Phillips wrote: > > JF Mezei wrote:  > > > Ian Miller wrote: B > > > > "Those concerns have been resolved now that support for=20 > Oracle and VMSB > > > > has been extended and Mr Cholewa says the option of the=20 > Education 5 > > > > Ministry upgrading Datapay has been revived."  > > >  > > > H > > > Support should not have been "extended".  They should have clearly@ > > > stated that there never had been any thoughts of ending=20 > support. Period. > > >  > > > B > > > If you want to kill rumours of VMS being desupported, you=20 > don't just? > > > extend support from year to year, you use the media to=20  > kill the rumour A > > > once and for all. They may have rescued that one account=20  > for a few more2 > > > years, but they missed a golden opportunity. > > ? > > Hmmm. I wonder if Oracle and VMS were ever updated since=20  > 1997. Although? > > I don't know for sure, I suspect that version support is=20  > what expired > > and was then extended.D > Remember that the IT group in the Education Ministry also get paid > using E > this payroll system, so they are unlikely to make rash decisions :) F > The "extended support" was probably from the supplier of the payroll > software, E > not from HP or Oracle. The payroll system may have been "certified" G > (whatever that means) on vms/oracle version 7, and when these go onto B > "prior version support", the software company then has to decide	 > whether 5 > to support vms 8/oracle 10 or abandon the platform. F > The vms market share and growth prospects usually make that decision > easy. E > Most surviving software companies that did vms applications can now  > supplyH > their systems with windows or browser front-ends, with server software > like > windows/sql server/IIS > windows/oracle/apache  > unix/oracle/apache > linux/mySQL/apacheF > I know they could also support vms/oracle/apache, but is the cost of > doing  > so worth the extra customer? > Phil >=20    F The bigger question might be "Can the Customers and Vendors afford theH resources and effort associated with the QA testing of their applicationG with the 10-20 monthly *security* (not bug) OS and supporting utilities 0 patches associated with Linux and Windows OS's?"  ? [RH Security site lists approx 7-20 security patches per month]   @ In addition, can the Cust afford to deal with HR security issuesE associated with hackers getting access to Cust and employee personnel  data?=20  C For some vendors and Cust's implementing IT systems, this is a huge E consideration - especially since the focus going forward is web based % services for end users or clients.=20   E As an example, how much longer would you deal with a bank or firm who G just sent you a letter stating that under the State law, they needed to D inform you that all the personal financial, home address and contact6 information they had on you is now on the Internet?=20  H While no platform is 100% secure, imho, it stands to reason that puttingH your HR system on a platform that has 10-20 security patches *per month*E (e.g. Linux - Windows is similar) is obviously placing your firm at a F higher risk than a platform that has much, much fewer security issues.   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:58:12 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> Y Subject: EXECSTACKPAGES? (Was  Re: Oops! (Was: Re: Stacks, Static, Item Lists, Modes and  1 Message-ID: <e7u8r0$4ng$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi John,  G > The other stacks have fixed sizes (see KSTACKPAGES and EXECSTACKPAGES  > SYSGEN parameters).   L What version of VMS are you using? Can you please include the output from: -   sysgen> show execstackpages   9 Got a release note for when it was introduced/taken-away?   K If you execeed the Exec-Mode stack you currently bump into memory (Sentinel J page? Kernel stack?) that triggers an access violation. (Which is all thatJ one could ask for) But if you point the SP to somewhere that isn't a validJ Exec-Mode stack address but still valid memory then the system limps on. IE know it would be an absolute obscenity to add a /CHECK=STACK compiler < qualifier for MACRO but is there nothing that could be done?  G Don't get me wrong; I'm from the school of thought that says "If you're I doing that sort of stuff with the stack in inner-mode then you should put K your hands up and move slowly away from the keybaord" but air-bags are good  eh?   I Don't worry, it's just that I've talked more about stacks in the last two L days than I have in the last 20 years. I expect to tire of it by the weekend :-)    Thanks again for your replies.   Cheers Richard Maher  I PS. Have you seen comp.lang.cobol? How anyone could be that interested in K COBOL escapes me (and I'm a COBOL fan!) but they are talking about a lot of " stuff that DEC COBOL doesn't have.  3 "John Reagan" <john.reagan@hp.com> wrote in message , news:XFbog.2273$hi3.1132@news.cpqcorp.net... > Richard Maher wrote: > > Hi John, > > L > > Thanks for the details of what BLISS actually does. If you can help with@ > > what MACRO was doing with the following scenario (apart from Pilot-Error,L > > and no compiler can save complete idiots from themselves :-) then pleaseK > > jump in. You see, I made a boo-boo in the little example I was using to K > > check user-mode access to the exec-mode stack. I thought I was grabbing  ten L > > pageLETS of stack space for some local storage and frigging around, when I H > > was actually taking ten pages. I'll have to find one of those lovely memory > H > As you have found out, only the user-mode stack automatically expands.G > The other stacks have fixed sizes (see KSTACKPAGES and EXECSTACKPAGES  > SYSGEN parameters).  > H > Even allocating 10 pagelets with 'SUBL2 #10*512, SP' is quite a bit ofG > execstack space when the default EXECSTACKPAGES on my Alpha system is  > only 2 8K pages. >  > --  
 > John Reagan 1 > HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  > Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:46:33 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> Y Subject: Re: EXECSTACKPAGES? (Was  Re: Oops! (Was: Re: Stacks, Static, Item Lists, Modes  ) Message-ID: <op.tbu7jviyzgicya@hyrrokkin>   3 On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:58:12 -0700, Richard Maher   $ <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote:  H > What version of VMS are you using? Can you please include the output  	 > from: -  > sysgen> show execstackpages ; > Got a release note for when it was introduced/taken-away?   > Works on F8.3 but not on 8.2, 7.3-2, 7.3-1 or 7.3 (AXP or VAX)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:37:29 +0100 * From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>% Subject: Re: Floating point questions 2 Message-ID: <e7tikp$5bb$1@blackmamba.itd.rl.ac.uk>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  % news:44A19249.2EF63EC@teksavvy.com...   D > I fully understand that doing any math operation in floating pointC > yields a fuzzy result that cannot be tested for equality. But can A > specifc constant values be represented precisely when those are 7 > essentially large integers stored as floating point ?   @ Not when the integers have more digits than you have significantA figures. You need accuracy of 1 part in 10^25 to distinguish 1e25  from 1e25 + 1.     ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 08:04:26 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) % Subject: Re: Floating point questions 3 Message-ID: <tN9itD5lfNIn@eisner.encompasserve.org>   R In article <e7s0i9$l71$1@nntp.aioe.org>, "Dann Corbit" <dcorbit@connx.com> writes:= > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  E >> And if that program is compiled on an alpha, what does "float" and % >> "double" translate to by default ?  >  > F & D, IIRC.  $    Nope.  Alpha defaults to F and G.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:55:22 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> % Subject: Re: Floating point questions ) Message-ID: <op.tbu7ykxpzgicya@hyrrokkin>   E On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:50:36 -0700, <briggs@encompasserve.org> wrote:   9 > In article <44A19249.2EF63EC@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei  =   ( > <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >> Tom Linden wrote:2 >>> You can not test for equality, you must write,' >>>   if abs(variable-1.0e25) < epsilon I >>> Based on what you are doing, you should be able to determine the val=  ue  =    >>> of >>> the constant epsilon.  >> >>I >> This is what I thought. However, in this case, the GPS sets a field t=  o a I >> specific value (not a calculated value). Wouldn't it then be a trusta=  ble 
 >> value ? >> >> eg: >>
 >> 	A =3D 1.0 2 >> 	if( A =3D=3D 1.0 ) then printf("Hello World"); > I > 1.0 is exactly representable in all varieties of 32 and 64 bit floatin=  g  > point. > G > 1.0E+25 is not exactly representable in any of the standard varieties " > of 32 and 64 bit floating point. > I > If your implementation language offers any guarantees in this area, it=   ) > is probably something to the effect of:  > F >   "If a floating point literal or expression has a true mathematicalG >    value that is not expressible in the floating point implementation I >    in use then the result of evaluating that expression will be either=   I >    the next higher representable number or the next lower representabl=  e 
 >    number".  > C >   "Code that depends on which of these two choices are made is  =   
 > erroneous".  > E >> I fully understand that doing any math operation in floating point < >> yields a fuzzy result that cannot be tested for equality. > A > This is not true.  This is a overly paranoid rule of thumb.  In F > most cases, the result of a floating point computation will be exactD > if the true mathematical result (and all intermediate results) are > exactly expressible. > I > Some math libraries may relax this guarantee in the name of performanc=  e. > 
 >> But canB >> specifc constant values be represented precisely when those are8 >> essentially large integers stored as floating point ? >  > Yes. > = > 1.0E+25 is exactly representable in 128 bit floating point. E > 2^48 is exactly representable in 32, 64 and 128 bit floating point.  > E >> In the case where I do have to find the difference and test if the I >> difference is smaller than "epsilon",  how do I go about deciding the=    >> value of epsilon ?  > A > For 32 bit floating point, epsilon will be about 1 millionth of 1 > the value being compared against.  i.e. 1.0E+19  > I >> Again, this is for a test of a specific constant value that the GPS u=  ses + >> to indicate that this field is unusable.  > I > What specific constant value?  The value we've seen is "1.0E+25".  But=   3 > that's not an unambiguous floating point literal.   I That is true for Float Binary, but not for Float Decimal or scaled Fixed=    =    Decimal.I So the trick here would be to right a subroutine of a few lines in PL/I =  to perform the test.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 11:50:36 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org% Subject: Re: Floating point questions 3 Message-ID: <aGawXMRKLDU9@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <44A19249.2EF63EC@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  > Tom Linden wrote: 1 >> You can not test for equality, you must write, & >>   if abs(variable-1.0e25) < epsilonL >> Based on what you are doing, you should be able to determine the value of >> the constant epsilon. >  > J > This is what I thought. However, in this case, the GPS sets a field to aJ > specific value (not a calculated value). Wouldn't it then be a trustable	 > value ?  >  > eg:  > 
 > 	A = 1.0- > 	if( A == 1.0 ) then printf("Hello World");   G 1.0 is exactly representable in all varieties of 32 and 64 bit floating  point.  E 1.0E+25 is not exactly representable in any of the standard varieties   of 32 and 64 bit floating point.  F If your implementation language offers any guarantees in this area, it' is probably something to the effect of:   D   "If a floating point literal or expression has a true mathematicalE    value that is not expressible in the floating point implementation F    in use then the result of evaluating that expression will be eitherG    the next higher representable number or the next lower representable     number".   J   "Code that depends on which of these two choices are made is erroneous".  D > I fully understand that doing any math operation in floating point; > yields a fuzzy result that cannot be tested for equality.   ? This is not true.  This is a overly paranoid rule of thumb.  In D most cases, the result of a floating point computation will be exactB if the true mathematical result (and all intermediate results) are exactly expressible.  H Some math libraries may relax this guarantee in the name of performance.  	 > But can A > specifc constant values be represented precisely when those are 7 > essentially large integers stored as floating point ?    Yes.  ; 1.0E+25 is exactly representable in 128 bit floating point. C 2^48 is exactly representable in 32, 64 and 128 bit floating point.    D > In the case where I do have to find the difference and test if theG > difference is smaller than "epsilon",  how do I go about deciding the  > value of epsilon ?  ? For 32 bit floating point, epsilon will be about 1 millionth of / the value being compared against.  i.e. 1.0E+19   J > Again, this is for a test of a specific constant value that the GPS uses* > to indicate that this field is unusable.  F What specific constant value?  The value we've seen is "1.0E+25".  But1 that's not an unambiguous floating point literal.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 11:58:26 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org% Subject: Re: Floating point questions 3 Message-ID: <V8Hp$IWV+vg$@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <e7tikp$5bb$1@blackmamba.itd.rl.ac.uk>, "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> writes:  > = > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  ' > news:44A19249.2EF63EC@teksavvy.com...  > E >> I fully understand that doing any math operation in floating point D >> yields a fuzzy result that cannot be tested for equality. But canB >> specifc constant values be represented precisely when those are8 >> essentially large integers stored as floating point ? > B > Not when the integers have more digits than you have significantC > figures. You need accuracy of 1 part in 10^25 to distinguish 1e25  > from 1e25 + 1.    A If what you're comparing against is another floating point number ? then you only need a 58 (maybe 59) bit mantissa to render 1E+25  unambiguous.  / That's one part in 5^25, not one part in 10^25.   ? But yes, if what you're comparing against is the integer-valued D expression "1E+25 + 1" then you would need an 83 bit (10^25 ~= 2^83)	 mantissa.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:25:30 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> % Subject: Re: Floating point questions ) Message-ID: <op.tbu9cs06zgicya@hyrrokkin>   E On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:58:26 -0700, <briggs@encompasserve.org> wrote:   H > In article <e7tikp$5bb$1@blackmamba.itd.rl.ac.uk>, "Richard Brodie"  =   > <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> writes:  >>= >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message ( >> news:44A19249.2EF63EC@teksavvy.com... >>F >>> I fully understand that doing any math operation in floating pointE >>> yields a fuzzy result that cannot be tested for equality. But can C >>> specifc constant values be represented precisely when those are 9 >>> essentially large integers stored as floating point ?  >>C >> Not when the integers have more digits than you have significant D >> figures. You need accuracy of 1 part in 10^25 to distinguish 1e25 >> from 1e25 + 1.  > C > If what you're comparing against is another floating point number A > then you only need a 58 (maybe 59) bit mantissa to render 1E+25  > unambiguous. > 1 > That's one part in 5^25, not one part in 10^25.  > A > But yes, if what you're comparing against is the integer-valued I > expression "1E+25 + 1" then you would need an 83 bit (10^25 ~=3D 2^83)=    > mantissa.   E Strictly speaking, Mantissa is the fractional part of a logarithm and > the fractional part of a decimal is just that, IIRC.  However,D Mantissa has been misused for so long that it is now in most circles acceptable usage.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 08:14:27 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Y Subject: Re: How to run program in background. How to list my processies and kill a runni 3 Message-ID: <0SDhfKIDhrKH@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <1151484491.503009@proxy.dienste.wien.at>, "Ferry Bolhar" <bol@adv.magwien.gv.at> writes: > > > "Foreground" - Every interactive (terminal-attached) processG > "Background" - SPAWN/NOWAIT+ATTACH (similar to a '&' in a shell's job  > control environment)# > "Daemon" - RUN/DETACHED or SUBMIT   E    A UNIX daemon is generally deeply connected into the UNIX kernel,  D    usually in the I/O system.  It's much closer to a VMS ACP than a ;    detached process you'ld get from run/detached or submit.   D    VMS batch processing is more like UNIX "at" command or cron jobs,D    although I have seen queues set up on AIX like printers but with ?    /bin/sh as the input filter which then gave it a true batch      capability.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:31:13 +0200 , From: "Ferry Bolhar" <bol@adv.magwien.gv.at>Y Subject: Re: How to run program in background. How to list my processies and kill a runni 5 Message-ID: <1151505073.594510@proxy.dienste.wien.at>    Bob Koehler:  F >    A UNIX daemon is generally deeply connected into the UNIX kernel,E >    usually in the I/O system.  It's much closer to a VMS ACP than a = >    detached process you'ld get from run/detached or submit.   F Well, depends on how you define "daemon". AFAIK this is the definitionJ for a process "running in background", without an attached terminal. ThereL are many processes like this, typically with their names ended with "d", butG not necessarily deeply connected into the UNIX kernel. For example, the D Apache WEB server "httpd" is a daemon, but not more connected to theH UNIX kernel than standard utilities like awk, sed, the shell or perl (at least 0 Apache 1.3 when building with "normal" options).   Greetings, Ferry   --   Ing. Ferry Bolhar % Municipality of Vienna, Department 14  A-1010 Vienna / AUSTRIA  E-mail: bol@adv.magwien.gv.at    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 06:39:57 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> Subject: How to set LOCKIDTBL?C Message-ID: <1151501997.081982.125110@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>   D I noticed that AUTOGEN always increases LOCKIDTBL on my v6.1 systems+ and always decreases it on my v6.2 systems:   
 v6.2 example:     LOCKIDTBL parameter information:         Feedback information. .            Old value was 208, New value is 166'            Current number of locks: 280 $            Peak number of locks: 208  B Notice that the current number of locks is larger than its peak!!!    
 v6.1 example:     LOCKIDTBL parameter information:         Feedback information. 0            Old value was 3198, New value is 3327'            Current number of locks: 331 %            Peak number of locks: 3456   B And I really doubt the peak number of locks is correct in the v6.1E example. I've never seen it anywhere near that high in a MONITOR LOCK  display.  E If I let MONITOR LOCK run overnight, can I use that to set this param D (as a workaround) by picking a value a little larger or smaller than6 the peak? Or some other way? Does it even matter much?  > These are MicroVAX 3100's (models 80, 90, 95) if that matters.   thanks   AEF    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:31:17 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>" Subject: Re: How to set LOCKIDTBL?1 Message-ID: <Vowog.2316$iS3.643@news.cpqcorp.net>   
 AEF wrote:F > I noticed that AUTOGEN always increases LOCKIDTBL on my v6.1 systems- > and always decreases it on my v6.2 systems:  ... @ > These are MicroVAX 3100's (models 80, 90, 95) if that matters.    H Databases and a few applications can require great huge piles of locks. G   Various other operations and applications and environments don't.  A  F MicroVAX 3100 running some applications will churn along with minimal E locking activity, while a clustered MicroVAX 3100 running Oracle Rdb  F will require rather more locks; it's the application load and not the H system model that tends to be key here.  (Yes, once again Hoff displays # his hammerlock on the obvious.  :-)   H LOCKIDTBL sets the initial number of locks.  The table grows.  In older H OpenVMS releases, the table can grow as far up as LOCKIDTBL_MAX -- that ? upper-limit parameter is obsolete in current releases, however.   D I'd look for any updates involving AUTOGEN here, and I'd ensure the E FEEDBACK mechanism is used on SHUTDOWN.  (This is the usual "do make  ; sure you have the current ECOs loaded" request, obviously.)   I I'd also be tempted to set a MIN_LOCKIDTBL in MODPARAMS.DAT, and move on  I to the next matter.   The lock tables aren't a particularly big consumer  C of system resources -- off-hand, I don't recall the size of a lock  ( entry, but it's undoubtedly in the IDSM.  G I'd look at memory usage, as well; at how much memory is configured in  B these systems, and how much memory is in current use. OpenVMS VAX D systems can be constrained around VIRTUALPAGECNT and BALSETCNT, for H instance (that must fit into S0 space with the pool and most everything B else System), and around the working sets of all of the processes I presently active (that must fit into the available memory left after the  G memory dedicated to OpenVMS is reserved).  (Why do I mention this?  If  E AUTOGEN detects physical memory constraints, it can start ratcheting  > down various settings and in various apparently-strange ways.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:30:38 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> 8 Subject: It's not personal (Was: Re: APACHE$PRIVILEDGED)1 Message-ID: <e7u779$2l0$1@news-02.connect.com.au>   	 Hi Steve,   C > So I'm the designated tall poppy?  I'm flattered; thank you.  :-)   I I think you'll find that it is *I* who am the injured party here, and the I victim of thuggish bullying. Having said that, after my robust defense, I K don't think anyone else will be trying to take my lunch-money again anytime F soon. So, as you're now being so incredibly reasonable about the whole" thing, let us make the business: -  1 You can have the CDs, but I'm keeping the dog :-)    On 26 June 2006, Hoff wrote:-  > a modicum of respect  ! On this basis we can proceed. . .   G I agree with *everything* you've said below! It is light on opinionated J rhetoric, and contains much useful information. Could be good somewhere inJ the programming concepts manual. The/a problem I still have is that you'veL gone much further than that, many times here in COV. Now, neither of us have7 the spare time for this so let's draw a line under it:-   G 1) You have stated/inferred/scare-crowed/"Wolf"-cried/FUDded that it is G "Intrinsicly and architecturally *impossible* to *securely* call out to I *any* RTL routine from an inner-mode UWSS with an *untrusted* caller!" If D you simply agree *unequivocally* to the following statement then I'm prepared to walk-away: -  K "It is perfectly possible, however difficult and dangerous the task may be, I to securely call out to an RTL routine that is architected to function at  inner-mode"   H 2) We must come to an accomadation on your use of the emotion-laden wordI "unsupported". Let's face it, *no* RTL routine is "supported" to function G with threads unless it publishes its tolerence explicitly. Yet VMS says E "Unlesss it explicity says it doesn't support threads then we'll just G proceed on the basis that everything is peachy." The half-truth in what B you've had to say about UWSSs is that *many* and varied (and oftenK essential) RTL programming practices render a routine "inappropriate" to be D called from inner-mode. (Especially, and routine that is stateful at user-mode like lib$*_vm*)   K Let's face it, correct system development and design is challenging, and so K it should be! That's why we (used to :-() get paid the big bucks. But if we L took your attitude (and a lot of sites are!) then there would be no in-house development at all!   L "Ooooh! I wouldn't do any programming if I were you. It's absolutely fraughtK with danger! There are integer underflows and overflows and divide by zeros I errors (not to mention rounding issues). Then there's having to check for K EOF and remembering to reset the LINE_CNT to zero after a page-throw, where K will it all end? I buy software off-the-shelf, what other folks do is up to L them but if a support call gets anywhere near me then my input is that it is$ unsupported to touch the keyboard!".  G > And Mr Maher, are you going to submit your FAKE_VM tool update to the  > OpenVMS Freeware?   H Not sure what you're refering to here? If it's my FAKE_RTL.COM then it'sG just Gillie's with about twenty extra lines and 1/2 doz modified lines. E Nothing very clever and whoever owns fake_rtl can take (or leave) the J changes I've made. FAKE_RTL itself It's quite clever with what it does andK if my changes make it a bit more useful then I'll happily hand them over to K whoever. If you were refering to some VM tool (especially one that protects F it's inventory(s) at CURR-Mode and tolerates inner-mode allocating andI freeing memory from outer-mode pools then I don't have one :-( I think we H all want one of them!) I was going to submit the WAITFR_FILE stuff but I@ think it loops if the Lock Value Block is trashed as I balked atE revalidating it myself. As (IMHO) it is a very useful example of UWSS E programming (and would be the only *MACRO* example available) I think J SYS$EXAMPLES would be a far more suitable home, and if we can thrash out a> few more details then I'll tighten it up a bit and we're done.   Cheers Richard Maher  K PS. My currency is starting to suffer from over-exposure but I am hell-bent < on banging-on about this issue untill you put-up of shut-up.  9 "Hoff Hoffman" <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> wrote in message + news:PSSng.2241$AH2.217@news.cpqcorp.net...  > C > So I'm the designated tall poppy?  I'm flattered; thank you.  :-)  > @ > Some background on security and privileged application code... > D > The primary security on OpenVMS and on most other multi-processingH > operating systems is implemented via the memory management system (theG > page tables) and via what VAX calls the change-mode routines, via the E > Alpha SRM PALcode change-mode equivalent, or via what the IA-32 and G > IA-32e architectures refer to as the call gate.  The operating system J > protects itself by restricting access into the inner memory access modes > and to the pages of memory.  > H > With any privileged code, the code has to ensure that an accidental orF > induced corruption in shared resources does not compromise security.E > Most folks working with such a construct know to probe the argument B > lists, though a few folks might well miss the second-level probeJ > involved when descriptors or such are involved within the argument list.G >   Far more subtle (but no less hazardous) can be security attacks via F > intentionally or unintentionally shared resources, such as the imageJ > pool (if and as applicable) or (again, if applicable) the stack.  One ofE > the most subtle attacks is to either induce a run-time error within I > inner-mode code, or (worse) to fully hijack the inner-mode code.   This G > is the usual target intent for a buffer-overrun attack, obviously --  2 > either to destabilize the code, or to hijack it. > A > With OpenVMS constructs including device drivers (or drivers an E > ancillary control processes (ACPs))and user-written system services E > (UWSS; also known as privileged shareable images), these constructs E > operate in inner processor modes.  (I'll leave execlets for another D > day.)  Device drivers and UWSS interfaces both have APIs, with theI > former built into and through $qio[w] and $io_perform[w] and the latter I > using the so-called privileged library vector and the associated change  > mode handlers. > G > Drivers, ACPs, UWSS images and execlets are all part of the so-called F > trusted computing base (TCB), and such hunks of code are accordingly. > responsible for maintaining system security. > F > The device driver interface provides routines that probe buffers forF > read or read and write access, while the UWSS interface requires theI > code more directly perform the probes using built-ins, PALcode calls or A > such.  Performing the individual argument list and buffer probe D > operations is easy.  Determining and performing all of the variousA > potential cases in a non-trivial argument list is somewhat more @ > involved.  Code must also buffer information in a trusted areaI > as required and/or must re-probe the arguments upon completion to avoid G > having the argument list to avoid attacks based on changing the data.  > E > One of the more hazardous situations for system security is a mixed C > environment; where there are resources shared between trusted and G > untrusted environments.  On an OpenVMS system, this can include ASTs, B > the heap, the stack, argument lists, or -- such as in a threadedG > environment -- most anything.  Here, as with most other environments, J > the memory page protections are your best resource.  But within the sameG > address space of a process, this can be more difficult than it seems. D > For UWSS code that uses RTL services, for instance, attacks can beE > via deliberately-induced heap or stack corruptions, or even through G > hijacking the contents of unprotected pages.  Context arguments often J > used in multi-part calls are and must be carefully secured, and the codeC > must be willing and able to accept any corruptions to the values. J > (Drivers can tend to avoid the need  for context arguments by being able. > to store data in trusted regions of memory.) > J > And probably the most hazardous environment is where application code isK > performing security-related functions, such as authentication or evasion.  > J > As for the UWSS, calling into a routine that isn't intended to be calledD > from privileged environments can open up various subtle exposures.I > Installing an executable image, for instance, and specifically an image G > that wasn't intended to be installed, can cause security exposures as H > the tool might be able to read or write files or objects not otherwiseJ > accessible.  Not only will the operation that requires privileges now beH > permitted, but other and potentially unintended operations can also beI > permitted.  This is where a security investigation into the called code J > can be potentially involved, as well -- since the called code may or mayE > not expect the inner-mode call, you need to ensure it will function J > correctly for your environment.  (If the environment has untrusted users# >   and if it needs to be secured.)  > J > If you can trust the calling environment -- and anybody that can link toF > an activate the UWSS when installed -- then the coding involved in aI > UWSS is trivial.  (If I trust the calling code but not the environment, J > then I tend to install the executable image with privileges.  If I can'tB > trust the calling code (or the environment), then I start to getK > seriously paranoid.  This can be a UWSS, a driver or a driver and ACP --  G > as has been obvious in variations of this thread, I tend to prefer to I > call RTL services from user-mode, for instance, and an ACP or an AST is  > the usual path.) > C > Now as to what other folks might choose here and how a particular J > programmer might choose to implement something, well, that's up to them. > G > And Mr Maher, are you going to submit your FAKE_VM tool update to the I > OpenVMS Freeware?  We're past the deadline, but if you can get the tool G > packaged and submitted Real Soon Now, I can add it into the packaging  > that's presently underway. >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:21:02 +0200 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> 2 Subject: Re: New OpenVMS Virtualization Whitepaper; Message-ID: <eb9ba$44a249ff$50db5015$27766@news.hispeed.ch>    Doug Phillips wrote: > Paul Sture wrote:  >  >>Doug Phillips wrote: >> >>F >>>Maybe I just got a lucky card, but I got a Bingo on the first page! >>> 2 >>>< http://isd.usc.edu/~karl/Bingo/bbbingo.html > >>> G >>"Sorry, your browser does not interpret JavaScriptTM or you have this E >>function turned off. Please go to  Mozilla for a copy of Mozilla or  >>FireFox."  >> >>???  >  >  > What "???" ?I >    -- the JavaScript message? The site uses JavaScript, so if you don't B > have JavaScript installed or you have it turned off you get that
 > message.I >    -- the Mozilla /Firefox reference? Since you're using Thunderbird on ) > your Mac, you likely know about Moz/FF.  >   E I simply thought that suggesting a download of Moz/FF because I have  < Javascript (deliberately) disabled was a total non sequitur.  ) I should have addeed a smiley, I suppose.   G > The link is to a "Buzzword Bingo" generator. Here's another if you're  > still curious: > , > < http://www.lurkertech.com/chris/bingo/ > >   	 Nice one.   F > This post was a follow-on to a thread back-a-bit where I stated thatB > the word "virtualization" was just a buzzword because it doesn'tH > actually describe anything specific. The white paper's first text page > (pg.3) contains such as: > = > "...incompatible silos of IT infrastructure deployed around < > the classic paradigm of disparate applications, databases,: > servers and networks.Companies need to be agile in their: > response to rapidly changing business/legislative/global: > demands and this is what virtualization and the Adaptive > Enterprise address." > 2 > One square short of a bingo on that bit alone;-) >   " Ah, your post makes sense now. :-)  H > But, since the first section is titled: "Executive Summary", buzzwordsF > aren't a real bad thing. The rest of the WP goes on the explain (but9 > not admit) in increasingly acronymic terms how the word G > "virtualization" isn't actually one thing but that many of the things > > we've known to be types of virtualization (VM's, Hard & Soft@ > partitions, etc) are part of HP's "Adaptive Enterprise" world. > G > Just for fun, google the word "virtualization" at, say www.ibm.com as  > + > Google [virtualization site:www.ibm.com ]  > 7 > and also try some other well know makers of IT stuff.  > H > Buzzword. Everyone's using it to mean whatever they want it to mean so > it doesn't mean anything.  >     I'll agree with that definition.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:07:28 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> 2 Subject: RE: New OpenVMS Virtualization WhitepaperT Message-ID: <FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B868401664826@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----7 > From: Doug Phillips [mailto:dphill46@netscape.net]=20  > Sent: June 27, 2006 5:42 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 4 > Subject: Re: New OpenVMS Virtualization Whitepaper >=20 [snip..]   >=20H > Buzzword. Everyone's using it to mean whatever they want it to mean so > it doesn't mean anything.  >=20     Re: virtualization buzzword...  E The reason for this is that virtualization is basically a strategy to E make better use of under utilized IT hardware and software resources. F Hence, you can see that this is a huge area that can easily be used to= describe a host of different sub strategies and technologies.   ? As an example, from an OpenVMS perspective, you could reference E OpenVMS's distributed cluster batch queues as a virtual batch manager H and be correct. The same could be stated a referring to OpenVMS's nativeD virtual disk and multiple controller technologies (shadowing) or itsH virtual site clustering capability (multi-site, active-active clusters).  E "Virtualization" is kind of like the word "clusters" and "security" - H its all in the eyes of the beholder. To really get into the details, you6 need to clarify what components you are talking about.   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 09:58:53 -0700/ From: "Volker Halle" <volker_halle@hotmail.com> 0 Subject: Re: ntpdate fails after VMS 8.2 upgradeC Message-ID: <1151513933.632904.273290@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>    Wilm,    > $ ntpdate -o 3 <mynode> + > Looking for host <mynode> and service ntp N > Error : The service passed was not recognized for the specified socket type.8 > 23 Jun 11:19:24 ntpdate[160]: can't find host <mynode> > ? > 23 Jun 11:19:24 ntpdate[160]: no servers can be used, exiting   E I've seen this error on TCPIP V5.5, when the NTP service had not been C configured at least once (does not need to be started). On previous > version, NTPDATE seems to work, even if the NTP serivce is not configured.    Volker.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:06:37 +0200 3 From: Wilm Boerhout <w5OLD.boerhout@PAINTplanet.nl> 0 Subject: Re: ntpdate fails after VMS 8.2 upgrade4 Message-ID: <44a2b71d$0$387$ba620dc5@nova.planet.nl>  ( on 28-6-2006 18:58 Volker Halle wrote...  G > I've seen this error on TCPIP V5.5, when the NTP service had not been E > configured at least once (does not need to be started). On previous @ > version, NTPDATE seems to work, even if the NTP serivce is not
 > configured.   H ntp service has never been configured on this node f'r sure, neither on G V7.3, nor on V8.2. Looks promising, I'll let you know how it turns out.    /Wilm    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:19:14 -0500 ' From: "Earl Lakia" <elakia@hotmail.com> , Subject: Re: Open VMS OS recovery on Itanium: Message-ID: <sKednZxeb8Z7Ej_ZnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@comcast.com>  ? Just to let the group know, the problem was with the setting of  the console devices.    2 "Earl Lakia" <elakia@hotmail.com> wrote in message4 news:N5ydnfF_IdQouRLZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@comcast.com.... > During one of the HP DSPP sponsored events I > 1 > received an RX2600 server.  This system doesn't  > ) > have any real way of backing itself up.  >  >  > ? > Anyway after an 8.1 Field Test to 8.2, I find that neither of  > 0 > my disks will boot.  Additionally, I was never > < > given any VMS distribution (there weren't enough copies at > 7 > the event).  I was able to get a VMS 8.2 distribution  > 3 > from my customer hoping the DVD would allow me to  > # > restore to a virgin distribution.  >  >  > 1 > I tried to boot it with the EFI and it seems to  > : > hit the DVD for sometime, but then hangs.  Additionally, > < > I am able to boot the Linux kit and the offline diagnostic > 3 > utilities CDs.  Looking at my documentation under  > 3 > "Restoring the OS", only HPUX, Windows, and Linux  > 4 > are mentioned.  What is the procedure for OpenVMS? >  >  > 4 > I also ran the offline diagnostics and all of them > 8 > passed.  Not to say there isn't still something wrong, > 7 > but things seem to be functioning.  Don't know if the  > 5 > diagnostics really test interrupts, etc.  But I can  > 6 > place data to and from the EFI partition on the SCSI > 	 > drives.  >  >  > 6 > Any help out there?  Should the VMS 8.2 distribution > 6 > DVD boot?  I have seen the documentation on updating > : > from a zip download file (this is what I did originally) > : > but not for an OpenVMS system recovery from a DVD or CD. >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 08:29:15 -0700- From: "Andrew" <andrew_harrison@symantec.com> 0 Subject: Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarkedC Message-ID: <1151508555.482972.105640@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Alan Greig wrote:  > > G > > With the dual core Montecito finally about to appear, it seems that I > > quad-core X64 Intel samples are out and about. There's a benchmark at G > > http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1527913 if you  > > haven't yet seen it. >  > H > This will certaintly give the 8086 at the very least an image of beingJ > ahead of that IA64 thing which just now getting to dual core. The delays@ > in IA64 means that IA64 will never catch up and will always be > considered an "also ran".  >   E With the Woodcrest Xeon 5160 CPU performance numbers now out it would = appear that x86-64 has taken another large step beyond IA-64.   D 3.0 Ghz Xeon 5160 does 3057 SPEcint2005 vs 1.6 Ghz 9MB IA-64 at 1590, SPECint and 2797 SPECfp vs 2712 for Itanium.  E It would appear that with the introduction of Woodcrest that the last ) refuge for Itanium, FP has been breached.   F The Xeon 5160 also does well on SPECrateINT for 2 cores of 61.7 vs theD best 2 core Itanium result of 35.5. For SPECratefp Woodcrest at 49.3G for 2 cores is slightly slower than Itanium at 51.5 but when you get to 0 4 cores Woodcrest does 85.9 vs 77.9 for Itanium.  D The new Xeon is dual core so the SPECrate numbers are done with half/ the number of CPU's when compared with Itanium.    regards  Andrew Harrison   E > And while Intel may not yet announce the end of IA64, I suspect its H > reorg/streamlining will not add engineering resources to IA64, and mayC > shift more of them to the 8086.  The question should now be asked H > whether IA64 will be able to even keep up or whether the gap which hadG > narrowed significantly since Merced will again start to grow, leaving " > IA64 further and further behind.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 06:07:32 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com & Subject: Re: Proxy Server for OpenVMS?C Message-ID: <1151500052.315182.289260@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   E Purveyor web server from Process Software has proxy service plus site 
 filtering ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:40:14 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> ? Subject: Reader's Digest version? (Was: Re: APACHE$PRIVILEDGED) 1 Message-ID: <e7u7p9$3ch$1@news-02.connect.com.au>   
 G'day Ian,  L I was rather hoping for just the juicy bits. (Anyway, I'll bet you London toI a brick that it calls out from inner-mode to RTL routines such as $getuai J and many others) No one seems to care and I'm sick of salmoning, so repeat? after me "When they do, it it is good - If I do it, it is bad".    Cheers Richard Maher  + "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> wrote in message = news:1151308801.289552.129000@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com... ; > After an extensive search lasting several seconds I found  > H > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_source.html > " > See if it contains what you seek >    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 01:41:33 -0700* From: "Palda" <jiri.pallich@logicacmg.com>  Subject: SFTP Output redirectionC Message-ID: <1151484093.241527.100720@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>   
 Greetings,  E I have some problems with SFTP client on OpenVMS (TCPIP$SSH_SFTP2.EXE D V7.3-2-02). I am using it in batch mode (sftp "-B" .....) running it% from a command procedure (.COM file).   E 1) I am not able to redirect all the output. The body of the COM file  looks like this:   ...   $ DEFINE SYS$OUTPUT SFTP_CMD.LOG$ $ SFTP "-B" SFTP_CMD.ARG "user@node" $ DEASSIGN SYS$OUTPUT  ...   G Most of the output is still printed on the screen and not to that file.  Am I doing something wrong? :o)   F Example of the output which is printed on the screen instead of to the file:   G blabla.                         |    16B |   0.0 kB/s | TOC: 00:00:01 |  100%   2) I always get this warning:   ; Warning: Need basic cursor movement capability, using vt100   A Is there any way how to get rid of this message? Does it have any ! impact to the sftp functionality?     & Thank you in advance for your help ;-)  	 Sincerely  Jiri Pallich   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 07:15:20 -0700- From: "Wilm Boerhout" <w5.boerhout@planet.nl> $ Subject: Re: SFTP Output redirectionB Message-ID: <1151504120.674148.32550@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   jiri,   B Don't know much about sftp, but from the looks of it, it seems theF program is written with interactive use on a VT-like terminal in mind.  A It could be that it assigns a channel to the terminal device "TT" ' itself, so you could try the following:   & $ DEFINE /USER SYS$OUTPUT SFTP_CMD.LOG $ DEFINE /USER TT NL: $ $ SFTP "-B" SFTP_CMD.ARG "user@node"  C (note that the /USER saves you from the $ DEASSIGN SYS$OUTPUT stuf, + image rundown clears the logicals as well.)    HTH, Wilm   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 07:49:22 -0700  From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>$ Subject: Re: SFTP Output redirectionB Message-ID: <1151506162.423729.23770@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com>  C Make sure you are on TCPIP V5.4 and latest ECO kit. There have been  lots of fixes for ssh.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:52:26 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: TCPIP question ) Message-ID: <op.tbu19oxazgicya@hyrrokkin>   - I wanted to check the config of my POP server  TCPIP> SHOW version   <    HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 5E    on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V7.3-2   ( TCPIP> SHOW CONFIGURATION ENABLE SERVICE   Enable serviceI       BIND, LBROKER, METRIC, NTP, POP, PWIP_DRIVER, SMTP, SSH, SSH_CLIEN=  T   < These I presume are the components.  According to help file:  F           SHOW CONFIGURATION  { component | ENABLE SERVICE [service] |  -                               START ROUTING }   )                               [ /COMMON ]   '                               [ /FULL ]   0                               [ /OUTPUT=3Dfile ] So ...   TCPIP> sho config POP A %CLI-W-IVKEYW, unrecognized keyword - check validity and spelling    \POP\    What am I misunderstanding?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:10:56 -0400 # From: sol gongola <sol@adldata.com>  Subject: Re: TCPIP question 0 Message-ID: <1151507512.997479@nntp.acecape.com>   Tom Linden wrote: / > I wanted to check the config of my POP server  > TCPIP> SHOW version  > = >   HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 5 F >   on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V7.3-2 > * > TCPIP> SHOW CONFIGURATION ENABLE SERVICE >  > Enable serviceJ >      BIND, LBROKER, METRIC, NTP, POP, PWIP_DRIVER, SMTP, SSH, SSH_CLIENT > > > These I presume are the components.  According to help file: > G >          SHOW CONFIGURATION  { component | ENABLE SERVICE [service] |  > . >                              START ROUTING } > * >                              [ /COMMON ] > ( >                              [ /FULL ] > / >                              [ /OUTPUT=file ]  > So ... >  > TCPIP> sho config POP C > %CLI-W-IVKEYW, unrecognized keyword - check validity and spelling  >  \POP\ >  > What am I misunderstanding?  sho service pop/full   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 08:13:57 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: TCPIP question C Message-ID: <1151507637.889080.234470@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   @ Looks like the POP entry was under ENABLE SERVICE, not SHOW CONF  0 SHOW SERVICE POP might give what you're after...   Tom Linden wrote: / > I wanted to check the config of my POP server  > TCPIP> SHOW version  > > >    HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 5G >    on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V7.3-2  > * > TCPIP> SHOW CONFIGURATION ENABLE SERVICE >  > Enable serviceK >       BIND, LBROKER, METRIC, NTP, POP, PWIP_DRIVER, SMTP, SSH, SSH_CLIENT  > > > These I presume are the components.  According to help file: > H >           SHOW CONFIGURATION  { component | ENABLE SERVICE [service] | > / >                               START ROUTING }  > + >                               [ /COMMON ]  > ) >                               [ /FULL ]  > 0 >                               [ /OUTPUT=file ] > So ... >  > TCPIP> sho config POP C > %CLI-W-IVKEYW, unrecognized keyword - check validity and spelling 	 >   \POP\  >  > What am I misunderstanding?    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 01:38:28 -0700  From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>, Subject: Re: VAX Open VMS Production SupportC Message-ID: <1151483908.359152.151040@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com>    you may also wish post this in( http://www.openvms.org/phorum/list.php?2   as it may reach other people.   C I agree with a point made by another poster - you are looking for a E senior person for temp job - there are people out there but the money  better be good.    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2006 11:54:13 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), Subject: Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support, Message-ID: <4gf8v5F1lshs4U3@individual.net>  . Well, as long as we're talking jobs here......    B Anybody know of any COBOL, Fortran or Pascal programmers needed in; Georgia anywhere?  How about the San Antonio, TX area?  :-) D I may not be a senior VMS Sys Admin, but I can program with the best
 of them!!!   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 05:26:59 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> , Subject: Re: VAX Open VMS Production SupportA Message-ID: <1151497619.688725.7240@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:0 > Well, as long as we're talking jobs here...... >  > D > Anybody know of any COBOL, Fortran or Pascal programmers needed in= > Georgia anywhere?  How about the San Antonio, TX area?  :-) F > I may not be a senior VMS Sys Admin, but I can program with the best > of them!!! >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  G Jason's ad also appears on www.dice.com along with a few others.  There G are some COBOL ads but nothing in those locations.  Something in NJ and ) near San Diego last time I looked though.   D Had enough of academia, Bill?  Or just looking for a warmer climate? :-)    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 05:24:28 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> , Subject: Re: VAX Open VMS Production SupportB Message-ID: <1151497468.550251.66670@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote: > JasonatMISI wrote: > > 	 > > Wilm,  > > D > >     Thank you for the info!  I wondered where the original quoteI > > originated. :-)  Shame you are in the wrong country.  This is a tough  > > spot to fill.  > , > Well, there's some valid reasons for that: > I > VMS folks with finance banking experience do exist; however, most of us I > are senior people who can see retirement at or just beyond the horizon. G > Changing jobs now would be hard to motivate unless current conditions  > are sufficiently intolerable.  > F > Again, most VMS folks are senior people who expect - or need - to be5 > paid a senior person's salary, not entry-level pay.  > G > Also, most folks who are looking want W2/full-time, not contract/temp  > 1099.  > I > Actually, VMS folks are in great abundance in the job market. Where "it H > gets stuck" is at the "experience must be current" statement. Some VMSE > folks were laid off over a decade ago, and use the OpenVMS hobbyist J > program to stay as current as possible within budgetary limits (not many% > home SANs out there, I'm thinking).  >   E Exactly.  Perhaps they could make a looser definition of "current" in  this situation.   F I became a VMS user in 1981, a paid VAX BASIC programmer in 1983 and aB paid System Manager in 1985.  My last paid experience with VMS wasF 13-Dec-2002.  However, I have a 4-node VMScluster at home running V8.2A and Oracle just to keep in touch (and I did manage to cobble up a E halfway decent SAN using surplus HSG80's and Compaq SAN switches.  No  EVA's or XP's though).   > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > ( > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page# > http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/  > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > $ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: $ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2006 12:46:56 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), Subject: Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support, Message-ID: <4gfc20F1j61vjU1@individual.net>  A In article <1151497619.688725.7240@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > 	"johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: >  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:1 >> Well, as long as we're talking jobs here......  >> >>E >> Anybody know of any COBOL, Fortran or Pascal programmers needed in > >> Georgia anywhere?  How about the San Antonio, TX area?  :-)G >> I may not be a senior VMS Sys Admin, but I can program with the best 
 >> of them!!!  >> > I > Jason's ad also appears on www.dice.com along with a few others.  There I > are some COBOL ads but nothing in those locations.  Something in NJ and + > near San Diego last time I looked though.   F I've watched Dice and Monster since they started.  I even sent resumesE a couple times but that was just to see how well it worked so I could F help upcoming graduates with their job hunting.  Local career servicesE kept pointing seniors in that direction.  I found it to to be a total  waste of time and effort.    > F > Had enough of academia, Bill?  Or just looking for a warmer climate? >:-)  E Truth be told, a little of both and other events.  As people may have D noticed by comments I have made here a couple years ago I joined theF National Guard after a long break from my real Army days.  I became anI IT Officer and had to go away to school for close to six months.  Through G good planning, experience and a bit of tele-commuting I kept everything I running smoothly while I was away.  The result of this seems to have been G convincing my boss's boss (and the administrators above him) that maybe J the department doesn't need a full-time computer person (because for thoseI 6 months everything continued ti run while they think no one was watching I the store!  No good deed goes unpunished.).  So I now find my self in the F unenviable position of not feeling particularly secure in my job, even after 18 years working here.  D Unlike others who work in this area I am not going to wait till theyE put the pink slip in my pay envelope.  And, given the chance, I think B I would enjoy getting back into programming full-time for a livingF again.  Not that I wouldn't take a job doing Unix Sys Admin or NetworkD Management, both of which I am also qualified for.  At this point, IG have one prospect just south of Atlanta but nothing is written in stone  yet.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:52:19 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> , Subject: Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support) Message-ID: <op.tbuwph1mzgicya@hyrrokkin>   7 On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:01:46 -0700, David J. Dachtera   # <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net> wrote:   4 >> If it is tough to fill, you aren't paying enough.( > He's a recruiter - it's not up to him.   I know,  "you" is collective.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:55:12 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> , Subject: Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support) Message-ID: <op.tbuwuasizgicya@hyrrokkin>   H On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 04:54:13 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   wrote:  0 > Well, as long as we're talking jobs here...... >  > D > Anybody know of any COBOL, Fortran or Pascal programmers needed in= > Georgia anywhere?  How about the San Antonio, TX area?  :-) F > I may not be a senior VMS Sys Admin, but I can program with the best > of them!!! Are you leaving Scranton?  >  > bill >    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2006 13:26:13 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), Subject: Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support, Message-ID: <4gfeblF1mobfnU1@individual.net>  ) In article <op.tbuwuasizgicya@hyrrokkin>, & 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:J > On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 04:54:13 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   > wrote: > 1 >> Well, as long as we're talking jobs here......  >> >>E >> Anybody know of any COBOL, Fortran or Pascal programmers needed in > >> Georgia anywhere?  How about the San Antonio, TX area?  :-)G >> I may not be a senior VMS Sys Admin, but I can program with the best 
 >> of them!!!  > Are you leaving Scranton?   G See my last message in this thread.  I need to find a new job and there I is nothing in the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area so a move is necessary. And, I given my desire to actually use a swimming pool more than 2 months of the G year and my preference for driving Roadsters, moving south seems a wise  choice.   I As for the job market around here, most of the serious IT jobs (Banks and H such) have moved away years ago.  Add to that the areas penchant for lowK pay (I once interviewed, just for fun, at a local place that had advertised L for a Phd with at least 8 years of experience.  they were offering $14,000.)M I have been here 18 years and my pay has just caught up to what I was earning I in my last previous job as a beltway bandit.  I am certain that with over ? 25 years of IT experience I can do better almost anywhere else.   G They say, "You can't ever go home."  Sometimes, in retrospect, it isn't  worth it if you try.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 07:09:39 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> , Subject: Re: VAX Open VMS Production SupportC Message-ID: <1151503779.004317.282730@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:C > In article <1151497619.688725.7240@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, @ > 	"johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: > >  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:3 > >> Well, as long as we're talking jobs here......  > >> > >>G > >> Anybody know of any COBOL, Fortran or Pascal programmers needed in @ > >> Georgia anywhere?  How about the San Antonio, TX area?  :-)I > >> I may not be a senior VMS Sys Admin, but I can program with the best  > >> of them!!!  > >> > > K > > Jason's ad also appears on www.dice.com along with a few others.  There K > > are some COBOL ads but nothing in those locations.  Something in NJ and - > > near San Diego last time I looked though.  > H > I've watched Dice and Monster since they started.  I even sent resumesG > a couple times but that was just to see how well it worked so I could H > help upcoming graduates with their job hunting.  Local career servicesG > kept pointing seniors in that direction.  I found it to to be a total  > waste of time and effort.  >   F I've had luck with Dice, but Monster always was a waste of time.  SameC for CareerBuilder.  A lot just depends on the local job situation I  think.   > > H > > Had enough of academia, Bill?  Or just looking for a warmer climate? > >:-) > G > Truth be told, a little of both and other events.  As people may have F > noticed by comments I have made here a couple years ago I joined theH > National Guard after a long break from my real Army days.  I became anK > IT Officer and had to go away to school for close to six months.  Through I > good planning, experience and a bit of tele-commuting I kept everything K > running smoothly while I was away.  The result of this seems to have been I > convincing my boss's boss (and the administrators above him) that maybe L > the department doesn't need a full-time computer person (because for thoseK > 6 months everything continued ti run while they think no one was watching K > the store!  No good deed goes unpunished.).  So I now find my self in the H > unenviable position of not feeling particularly secure in my job, even > after 18 years working here.  G That's usually the way it goes.  It's sad how many times it doesn't pay  to be too good.    > F > Unlike others who work in this area I am not going to wait till theyG > put the pink slip in my pay envelope.  And, given the chance, I think D > I would enjoy getting back into programming full-time for a livingH > again.  Not that I wouldn't take a job doing Unix Sys Admin or NetworkF > Management, both of which I am also qualified for.  At this point, II > have one prospect just south of Atlanta but nothing is written in stone  > yet. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:48:53 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> , Subject: Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support: Message-ID: <tpmdnUs6Yv1KCz_ZnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@comcast.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote:   > JasonatMISI wrote: >  >>Wilm,  >>B >>    Thank you for the info!  I wondered where the original quoteG >>originated. :-)  Shame you are in the wrong country.  This is a tough  >>spot to fill.  >  > , > Well, there's some valid reasons for that: > I > VMS folks with finance banking experience do exist; however, most of us I > are senior people who can see retirement at or just beyond the horizon. G > Changing jobs now would be hard to motivate unless current conditions  > are sufficiently intolerable.  > F > Again, most VMS folks are senior people who expect - or need - to be5 > paid a senior person's salary, not entry-level pay.  > G > Also, most folks who are looking want W2/full-time, not contract/temp  > 1099.  > I > Actually, VMS folks are in great abundance in the job market. Where "it H > gets stuck" is at the "experience must be current" statement. Some VMSE > folks were laid off over a decade ago, and use the OpenVMS hobbyist J > program to stay as current as possible within budgetary limits (not many% > home SANs out there, I'm thinking).  >   E It wasn't all that many years ago that SAN wasn't even available for  B VMS!  I recall getting an ad from Compaq for a SAN, asking if VMS * supported it, and being told "Sorry! No!!"   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 08:53:19 -07004 From: "JasonatMISI" <jdruckenmiller@misicompany.com>, Subject: Re: VAX Open VMS Production SupportC Message-ID: <1151509999.002996.114050@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Ian Miller wrote:   > you may also wish post this in* > http://www.openvms.org/phorum/list.php?2 >  > as it may reach other people.  > E > I agree with a point made by another poster - you are looking for a G > senior person for temp job - there are people out there but the money  > better be good.    Ian,  D      Thank you, I will check that out.  As far as rate goes, I don'tD rememeber posting a rate for the position.  I am leaving it open.  IF did get some more details from the managers though.  They have old VAXF equipment.  They are migrating to Alpha.  Key skills he is looking for
 are below:   1.  Strong VMS, 2.  VAX to Alpha conversion & DecNet Over IP> 3.  Need routine stuff like clusters, DecNet, and IP protocols 4.  SAN devices   5.  banking experience is a plus  G I am willing to look at anyone and consider any rate.  Just let me know 2 what you are looking for to commit to the project.     Jason Druckenmiller  Technical Recruiter  MISI COMPANY an NTT DATA GROUP COMPANY B Your Source for Technical Talent, Solutions and Usability Services www.misicompany.com  phone:   212-355-5585 xt 353 fax:        212-751-5964 AIM:     Jason at MISI  B "There is no limit to what a man can accomplish if he doesn't care5 who gets the credit."  Plaque on Ronald Reagan's Desk    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:48:58 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> , Subject: Re: VAX Open VMS Production Support) Message-ID: <op.tbu7nwaazgicya@hyrrokkin>   2 On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:53:19 -0700, JasonatMISI  =  ' <jdruckenmiller@misicompany.com> wrote:    >  > Ian Miller wrote: ! >> you may also wish post this in + >> http://www.openvms.org/phorum/list.php?2  >>  >> as it may reach other people. >>F >> I agree with a point made by another poster - you are looking for aI >> senior person for temp job - there are people out there but the money=    >> better be good. >  > Ian, > F >      Thank you, I will check that out.  As far as rate goes, I don'tF > rememeber posting a rate for the position.  I am leaving it open.  II > did get some more details from the managers though.  They have old VAX=   I > equipment.  They are migrating to Alpha.  Key skills he is looking for=    > are below: >  > 1.  Strong VMS. > 2.  VAX to Alpha conversion & DecNet Over IP  , What is the source language,  PL/I or Cobol?  @ > 3.  Need routine stuff like clusters, DecNet, and IP protocols > 4.  SAN devices " > 5.  banking experience is a plus > I > I am willing to look at anyone and consider any rate.  Just let me kno=  w 4 > what you are looking for to commit to the project. >  >  > Jason Druckenmiller  > Technical Recruiter  > MISI COMPANY > an NTT DATA GROUP COMPANY D > Your Source for Technical Talent, Solutions and Usability Services > www.misicompany.com  > phone:   212-355-5585 xt 353 > fax:        212-751-5964 > AIM:     Jason at MISI > D > "There is no limit to what a man can accomplish if he doesn't care7 > who gets the credit."  Plaque on Ronald Reagan's Desk  >    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 09:25:26 -0700$ From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob@jfcl.com>0 Subject: VMS V4.7 Distribution needed for 11/730B Message-ID: <1151511926.910785.68150@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  D   I have a 11/730 that I'm restoring.  The CPU and UDA50/RA8x drivesF are working, and now I'd like to find a copy of VMS V4.x to run on it.F Even though the 730 is supported by later versions, they're all prettyA much too "piggy" to run on such a slow machine.  VMS 3.x would be 6 useful, if there are any copies that old still around.  G   Does anybody have a set of tapes they can loan me?  I can read either F TK50s or 9 track tapes and transfer them to the 730.  It'll have to beF a full VMS distribution, though, and not a VAXstation "Micro" VMS copyC (the latter doesn't contain all the drivers and SYSLOAxxx files for D "big" VAXes).  I'd also really like to find DECnet too, if possible.  B   And before the copyright flames start, let me say that I have an@ OpenVMS Hobbyist license for the machine and it's clear from the< hobbyist FAQ that this allows the use of any version of VMS.  /   What's not clear is how you get the media :-)    Thanks, 
 Bob Armstrong   C P.S.  If anybody has any spare parts for a R80/RA80/RM80 drive, I'd  love to know about it!   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 09:57:21 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> 4 Subject: Re: VMS V4.7 Distribution needed for 11/730C Message-ID: <1151513841.746291.233660@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Bob Armstrong wrote:D > I have a 11/730 that I'm restoring.  The CPU and UDA50/RA8x drivesH > are working, and now I'd like to find a copy of VMS V4.x to run on it.H > Even though the 730 is supported by later versions, they're all prettyC > much too "piggy" to run on such a slow machine.  VMS 3.x would be 8 > useful, if there are any copies that old still around. > I >   Does anybody have a set of tapes they can loan me?  I can read either H > TK50s or 9 track tapes and transfer them to the 730.  It'll have to beH > a full VMS distribution, though, and not a VAXstation "Micro" VMS copyE > (the latter doesn't contain all the drivers and SYSLOAxxx files for F > "big" VAXes).  I'd also really like to find DECnet too, if possible. > D >   And before the copyright flames start, let me say that I have anB > OpenVMS Hobbyist license for the machine and it's clear from the> > hobbyist FAQ that this allows the use of any version of VMS. > 1 >   What's not clear is how you get the media :-)  > 	 > Thanks,  > Bob Armstrong  > E > P.S.  If anybody has any spare parts for a R80/RA80/RM80 drive, I'd  > love to know about it!  , You ought to hit the SimH-11 mailing list atA http:/simh.trailing-edge.com also.  Recently several members were D talking about running early versions of VMS (V3,V4) using the 11-780D portion of the SimH simulator.  Someone should have a usable copy of what you need.     John H. Reinhardt    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 10:09:01 -0700$ From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob@jfcl.com>4 Subject: Re: VMS V4.7 Distribution needed for 11/730C Message-ID: <1151514541.907450.261220@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:   K > You ought to hit the SimH-11 mailing list at http:/simh.trailing-edge.com   @   Thanks - doesn't look like they have archives online, but I'll subscribe and ask there.   Bob    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2006 10:45:08 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> 4 Subject: Re: VMS V4.7 Distribution needed for 11/730B Message-ID: <1151516706.084288.34230@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Bob Armstrong wrote:! > johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:  > M > > You ought to hit the SimH-11 mailing list at http:/simh.trailing-edge.com  > B >   Thanks - doesn't look like they have archives online, but I'll > subscribe and ask there. >  > Bob   F No. Even versions as old as that can't be put online.  But you can ask= and those that can provide will contact you.  Let them know a B geographical area just in case a "sneaker-net" transfer will work.     John H. Reinhardt    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.357 ************************