1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 26 Mar 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 169       Contents:0 Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss.0 Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss.0 Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss.0 Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss.0 Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss.0 Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss.0 Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss.0 Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss.0 Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss.P Re: Bliss-11 (Was: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS  Application De Re: Bootable disk copy of CD Re: EFN$C_ENF Chalk or Cheese? Re: EFN$C_ENF Chalk or Cheese? Re: EFN$C_ENF Chalk or Cheese? Re: EFN$C_ENF Chalk or Cheese? Re: EFN$C_ENF Chalk or Cheese?2 Re: How to use telnet to brows web page within VMS0 Re: HP Advertise VMS  - at least to me they did. Re: HP Support moving offshore?  Re: HP Support moving offshore?  Re: Intel to sell itanium? Re: Intel to sell itanium? Re: Intel to sell itanium? Re: Intel to sell itanium? Layered-Products CD question  Re: Layered-Products CD question  Re: Layered-Products CD question* Re: Lesbians living on Venus! NASA Coverup* Re: Lesbians living on Venus! NASA Coverup* Re: Lesbians living on Venus! NASA Coverup* Re: Lesbians living on Venus! NASA Coverup* Re: Lesbians living on Venus! NASA Coverup- Re: Lesbians SUFFERING on Venus: NASA Coverup  RMS With C++$ Re: Stupid DCL tricks - Quiet logout$ Re: Stupid DCL tricks - Quiet logoutG Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer G Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer G Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer G Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer G Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer / Re: VMS Securing Delivery - Just Ask The Vendor / Re: VMS Securing Delivery - Just Ask The Vendor $ Re: Where do DSA devices come from ?$ Re: Where do DSA devices come from ?$ Re: Where do DSA devices come from ?$ Re: Where do DSA devices come from ?$ Re: Where do DSA devices come from ?$ Re: Where do DSA devices come from ?# Re: Who's going to Montreal Seminar   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 12:51:36 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 9 Subject: Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss. 3 Message-ID: <LBrSX8XZmIfC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <dZednYuuve8rF7jZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >  > ...  > H >> The major appeal of threads compared to ASTs, is that the programming" >> model is simpler to understand. > C > I suppose that might have been true prior to the introduction of  D > multi-processor systems, but that was rather a long time ago.  Or I > perhaps you're just not familiar with applications which could benefit  5 > from the concurrent use of more than one processor.   E Actually, there were multiprocessor applications long before Threads. A Execution contexts were processes, which VMS (and other operating A systems) would run on one processor or another depending on load. = Kernel threads today are quite similar to processes, but with @ tweaks to match the C/Unix thread programming model.  Doing work@ in different processes to spread it among processors still works
 just fine.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:04:10 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>9 Subject: Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss. G Message-ID: <TpCdnROBBIbTLbjZnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:t > In article <dZednYuuve8rF7jZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >> Larry Kilgallen wrote:  >> >> ... >>I >>> The major appeal of threads compared to ASTs, is that the programming # >>> model is simpler to understand. D >> I suppose that might have been true prior to the introduction of E >> multi-processor systems, but that was rather a long time ago.  Or  J >> perhaps you're just not familiar with applications which could benefit 6 >> from the concurrent use of more than one processor. > G > Actually, there were multiprocessor applications long before Threads. C > Execution contexts were processes, which VMS (and other operating C > systems) would run on one processor or another depending on load. ? > Kernel threads today are quite similar to processes, but with B > tweaks to match the C/Unix thread programming model.  Doing workB > in different processes to spread it among processors still works > just fine.  ; What an amusing role-reversal!  That's very similar to the  D rationalizations that Unix weenies used to put forth for not having H asynchronous support ("Doing work in different processes - say, one per  client - works just fine!").  A Or perhaps you're also unaware of the difference in cost between  H process-context switches and thread-context switches (leaving aside the F additional awkwardness of communicating via process-shared memory and 8 cost of using inter-process synchronization primitives).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:24:06 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss. , Message-ID: <4425B4F0.715F3A67@teksavvy.com>  I > > The major appeal of threads compared to ASTs, is that the programming # > > model is simpler to understand.   C Threads allow concurrent processing of multiple "tasks". ASTs allow   serialisation of multiple tasks.  E While Motif on VMS does not officially allow threads, it is in fact a % best example of why threads are good.   H In the VMS version, because threads are not permitted, you need to breakH every task into small chunks and "submit" each chunk to execute in a way, fairly similar to the AST concept (an event)  D For instance, if you want to execute a long search while retaining aD "living" GUI, you need to break the search up into a gazillion smallB subroutine calls to allow GUI events to be processed between thoseG calls. This thus requires that a simple loop be transformed into a much D more complex system where context is preserved between calls AND theG subroutine self-terminates after a certain number of iterations to give E control back to the main event loop. UGLY. This is similar to the old F MAC programming where one was expected to call "systemcall" at regular@ intervals to give the system some CPU time at regular intervals.  B ASTs are similar because you cannot have one AST spend a long timeG processing stuff because it then prevents queued ASts to execute in the 
 mean time.    F With threads, you can have some tasks that take a long time to executeG in a thread of their own while maintaining interactivity with the user. H You then need to coordinate how the results of a threads are passed back to the main thread.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:23:41 -0600 6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>9 Subject: Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss. @ Message-ID: <craigberry-5B589A.16234125032006@free.teranews.com>  0 In article <e02ini$8e$1@news-02.connect.com.au>,5  "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote:    > Hi,  > L > While perusing the source listing for the VMS System Service Dispatcher, IK > had a serendipitous bump into something called the "inner-mode semaphore" G > and I have to say that my initial reaction was one of revulsion.As if N > thread-coders don't introduce enough of their own mutex bottlenecks; lurkingK > down deep in the guts of an innocent looking RTL, 3.8usecs of (relentless 0 > :-) CPU spin could be unleased on your system. > M > Ok, as someone who will only *ever* use ASTs to multithread a process (farm I > the work out to seperate processes if needed - I LIKE *VMS*) this issue J > isn't really of much interest to me. But I am curious to know if it doesI > affect the scalability of applications that are both multi-threaded and " > inner-mode active. Any thoughts? > J > I was of the opinion that the main appeal of threads was that everythingG > could be inlined. Being blocked and waited was no big deal 'cos other F > threads could keep going. No ASTs no asynchronous versions of SystemN > Services calls, "just wait it" but if it's an exec mode lock then aren't youJ > holding the semaphore at exec mode? Does Wait_Callers_Mode come in here? >  > Regards Richard Maher  > M > PS. To be fair, it looks like only the first waiter will spin and after the L > 3.8usecs (is that significant in CPU terms?) the thread sleeps but hey, if > it happens enough.  D Looks like documented behavior.  From the Guide to the POSIX Thread  Library:  H "Most OpenVMS system services cannot themselves support being called by B multiple threads concurrently. Therefore, calls to OpenVMS system @ services are serialized using a mechanism called the inner-mode A semaphore. If one thread attempts to call a system service while  H another thread is in the middle of calling a system service, the second D thread is blocked by an upcall until the first thread completes its  service call."   For more related info, see:   I http://ftp.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73final/6493/6101pro_032.html#blocking_  system_services . *** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***X *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 17:14:27 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 9 Subject: Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss. 3 Message-ID: <Rufp$3doevHe@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <TpCdnROBBIbTLbjZnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote:  H >> Actually, there were multiprocessor applications long before Threads.D >> Execution contexts were processes, which VMS (and other operatingD >> systems) would run on one processor or another depending on load.@ >> Kernel threads today are quite similar to processes, but withC >> tweaks to match the C/Unix thread programming model.  Doing work C >> in different processes to spread it among processors still works 
 >> just fine.  > = > What an amusing role-reversal!  That's very similar to the  F > rationalizations that Unix weenies used to put forth for not having J > asynchronous support ("Doing work in different processes - say, one per  > client - works just fine!"). > C > Or perhaps you're also unaware of the difference in cost between  J > process-context switches and thread-context switches (leaving aside the H > additional awkwardness of communicating via process-shared memory and : > cost of using inter-process synchronization primitives).  C When talking about VMS Kernel threads (which is what is required to D make use of multiple processors, the goal to which I was responding)D there is not significant overhead difference from the context switch required between processors.  E The lightweight thread context switch is when separate Kernel Threads B are not in use, meaning multiple processors cannot come into play.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 17:18:28 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 9 Subject: Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss. 3 Message-ID: <x1UFcSSBolsX@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <4425B4F0.715F3A67@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:J >> > The major appeal of threads compared to ASTs, is that the programming$ >> > model is simpler to understand. > E > Threads allow concurrent processing of multiple "tasks". ASTs allow " > serialisation of multiple tasks.  I So long as you have a single processor, it only "seems" to be concurrent.   G > While Motif on VMS does not officially allow threads, it is in fact a ' > best example of why threads are good.  > J > In the VMS version, because threads are not permitted, you need to breakJ > every task into small chunks and "submit" each chunk to execute in a way. > fairly similar to the AST concept (an event)  : I agree that Motif was designed in a Unix-centric fashion.  D > ASTs are similar because you cannot have one AST spend a long timeI > processing stuff because it then prevents queued ASts to execute in the  > mean time. >  > H > With threads, you can have some tasks that take a long time to executeI > in a thread of their own while maintaining interactivity with the user.   B The best AST-driven designs use the mainline for compute-intensive- activities and ASTs for the user interaction.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 19:27:55 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>9 Subject: Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss. G Message-ID: <9b-dnTRFpu6NfbjZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:t > In article <TpCdnROBBIbTLbjZnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >> Larry Kilgallen wrote:  > I >>> Actually, there were multiprocessor applications long before Threads. E >>> Execution contexts were processes, which VMS (and other operating E >>> systems) would run on one processor or another depending on load. A >>> Kernel threads today are quite similar to processes, but with D >>> tweaks to match the C/Unix thread programming model.  Doing workD >>> in different processes to spread it among processors still works >>> just fine.> >> What an amusing role-reversal!  That's very similar to the G >> rationalizations that Unix weenies used to put forth for not having  K >> asynchronous support ("Doing work in different processes - say, one per   >> client - works just fine!").  >>D >> Or perhaps you're also unaware of the difference in cost between K >> process-context switches and thread-context switches (leaving aside the  I >> additional awkwardness of communicating via process-shared memory and  ; >> cost of using inter-process synchronization primitives).  > E > When talking about VMS Kernel threads (which is what is required to F > make use of multiple processors, the goal to which I was responding)F > there is not significant overhead difference from the context switch > required between processors.  A I assume you meant 'processes' above.  If true, that is somewhat  G surprising:  it is my understanding that in most systems changing from  E one entire address space and protection context to another typically  I entails considerably more overhead (sometimes even involving things like  F cache flushes, though presumably only if cache is virtual - and quite G likely at least TLB flushes in any event) than simply switching thread  J context within a single process - even when kernel threads are being used.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 19:50:35 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 9 Subject: Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss. 3 Message-ID: <DcPScZhcy7nK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <9b-dnTRFpu6NfbjZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote:u >> In article <TpCdnROBBIbTLbjZnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  >>> Larry Kilgallen wrote: >>  J >>>> Actually, there were multiprocessor applications long before Threads.F >>>> Execution contexts were processes, which VMS (and other operatingF >>>> systems) would run on one processor or another depending on load.B >>>> Kernel threads today are quite similar to processes, but withE >>>> tweaks to match the C/Unix thread programming model.  Doing work E >>>> in different processes to spread it among processors still works  >>>> just fine. ? >>> What an amusing role-reversal!  That's very similar to the  H >>> rationalizations that Unix weenies used to put forth for not having L >>> asynchronous support ("Doing work in different processes - say, one per   >>> client - works just fine!"). >>> E >>> Or perhaps you're also unaware of the difference in cost between  L >>> process-context switches and thread-context switches (leaving aside the J >>> additional awkwardness of communicating via process-shared memory and < >>> cost of using inter-process synchronization primitives). >>  F >> When talking about VMS Kernel threads (which is what is required toG >> make use of multiple processors, the goal to which I was responding) G >> there is not significant overhead difference from the context switch  >> required between processors.  > ' > I assume you meant 'processes' above.    In the second instance, yes.   > If true, that is somewhat I > surprising:  it is my understanding that in most systems changing from  G > one entire address space and protection context to another typically  K > entails considerably more overhead (sometimes even involving things like  H > cache flushes, though presumably only if cache is virtual - and quite I > likely at least TLB flushes in any event) than simply switching thread  L > context within a single process - even when kernel threads are being used.  F The VMS implementation of kernel threads is not really within a single2 process.  Use the command SHOW SYSTEM to see that.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 00:19:34 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 9 Subject: Re: "Threads are crap in inner-mode!" - Discuss. / Message-ID: <md2dnQgNdKtQvrvZRVn-jg@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote: H >>>The major appeal of threads compared to ASTs, is that the programming" >>>model is simpler to understand. >  > E > Threads allow concurrent processing of multiple "tasks". ASTs allow " > serialisation of multiple tasks.  H Before we get carried away with all the multiple tasks hype, do keep in E mind that a CPU at best runs one process.  Everything is searialized.   E My current understanding is that my language of choice on VMS is not  1 thread safe, so it's a good thing I can use ASTs.   G > While Motif on VMS does not officially allow threads, it is in fact a ' > best example of why threads are good.  > J > In the VMS version, because threads are not permitted, you need to breakJ > every task into small chunks and "submit" each chunk to execute in a way. > fairly similar to the AST concept (an event) > F > For instance, if you want to execute a long search while retaining aF > "living" GUI, you need to break the search up into a gazillion smallD > subroutine calls to allow GUI events to be processed between thoseI > calls. This thus requires that a simple loop be transformed into a much F > more complex system where context is preserved between calls AND theI > subroutine self-terminates after a certain number of iterations to give G > control back to the main event loop. UGLY. This is similar to the old H > MAC programming where one was expected to call "systemcall" at regularB > intervals to give the system some CPU time at regular intervals. > D > ASTs are similar because you cannot have one AST spend a long timeI > processing stuff because it then prevents queued ASts to execute in the  > mean time.  D In my limited usage of ASTs, my basic concept is that an AST simply G reports something, such as completion of I/O, and such.  I leave it to  H the application to check such flags and perform the required tasks in a ) manner defined by the application design.   A Perhaps tasks that I'm not familiar with would require immediate  H processing, but, when confronted with the possibility of many of these, @ each preempting each other, my head hurts.  I prefer simplicity.  H > With threads, you can have some tasks that take a long time to executeI > in a thread of their own while maintaining interactivity with the user. J > You then need to coordinate how the results of a threads are passed back > to the main thread.   @ I've had occasion to have benefitted from such, specifically in D processing socket connection requests, but unfortunately, see above A about 'not thread safe'.  The tedious alternative is to pass the  " connection off to another process.   Still existing without threads.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 23:07:47 -05003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> Y Subject: Re: Bliss-11 (Was: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS  Application De . Message-ID: <mddmzfdu9v0.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  ) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:   H > I haven't yet used SIMH, but if I ever do, it would be to emulate the 1 > PDP-10, one of the first computers I ever used.   M Of course, SimH only emulates a KS-10, but it's ok for getting your feet wet. K For later OSes, you need to run KLH10.  (Both are hosted by Tim Shoppa, the  PDP-11 guy.)   --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:08:00 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>% Subject: Re: Bootable disk copy of CD 6 Message-ID: <4425A320.AE2F68BC@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Tom Linden wrote:  > > > I would like to upgrade a node, which doesn't have a workingD > CD, but does have a spare disk.  So what should be the command theK > backup from the CD on another node to this drive such that I can boot off J > it?  All the devices are visible across the cluster.  Will following do? > ; > $ mount/foreign cd:  or should it be $ mount cd: alpha082  > $ mount/foreign drive:' > $ backup/image/block=2048 cd:  drive:   E The source drive must be MOUNTed FILES-11. "MOUNT/OVER=ID ddcu:" will  do.   H /BLOCK is meaningful only for tape savesets being written (output spec., not input spec.). Leave it out.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 21:15:34 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) ' Subject: Re: EFN$C_ENF Chalk or Cheese? ( Message-ID: <e04btm$bcc$1@pcls4.std.com>  " "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> writes:  H >Using EFN$C_ENF in a wait form of a system service results in a specialE >varient of a LEF wait state without using an event flag. You have to  >specify a IOSB.B >You can tell a process in LEF is waiting for the magic event flagF >because PCB$L_WEFC is 4. (PCB$L_EFWM is irelevent junk in this case).  E Sounds like describing the process state as LEF is misleading in that 7 case, since it is _not_ waiting for a local event flag.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:10:39 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Re: EFN$C_ENF Chalk or Cheese? , Message-ID: <4425B1CD.C7EF180A@teksavvy.com>   Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote:C >        There were lots of cases but basically they were using EFN  > 0 without realizing it.   F Until reading about EFN$C_ENF on this newsgroup, I was still under theE impression that specifying 0 as event flag would be the equivalent of " not wanting event flag processing.    H Why was event flag value 0 not officially made into a "no op" event flag4 for operations where you didn't want an event flag ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:59:40 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Re: EFN$C_ENF Chalk or Cheese? , Message-ID: <4425BD44.95B38B2F@teksavvy.com>   Ian Miller wrote: H > I guess - Because 0 is a valid event flag number and it is legititmate > to use it properly.     ? Perhaps I was the only one, but I had been under a long running H impression that 0 was a "no-op" event code and that if you wanted a real& event flag, you would be using $GETEF.  < Has there ever been legitimate use of event flag 0 where theH aopplication really wanted to wait on 0 ? The documentation seemed quiteE explicit that to make use of an event flagh, you really needed to use ( $GETEF to ensure there was no conflict.   C Wouldn't it have been easier to simply modify $GETEF to ensure that H event flag 0 was never handed out, thus making it possible for people to6 specify 0 when they didn't care about the event flag ?  C As one who has used 0 in all my programs for a very long time, this F change forces me to now go thorugh these programs whenever I open them% to and make changes and restest them.   ) Not what I would call upwards compatible.   H Also, EFN$C_ENF is certaintly not obvious as a "no-op" value.  If it hadE been EFN$C_NOOP it might have been more obvious. As it stands, a 0 in L the event flag argument seems more obvious that it is a no-op than EFN$C_ENF   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 17:19:22 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ' Subject: Re: EFN$C_ENF Chalk or Cheese? 3 Message-ID: <DGbw4fYZRYzW@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <4425B1CD.C7EF180A@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  > Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote:D >>        There were lots of cases but basically they were using EFN >> 0 without realizing it. > H > Until reading about EFN$C_ENF on this newsgroup, I was still under theG > impression that specifying 0 as event flag would be the equivalent of $ > not wanting event flag processing. >  > J > Why was event flag value 0 not officially made into a "no op" event flag6 > for operations where you didn't want an event flag ?  9 Standard VMS Answer #1 - compatibility for existing code.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:24:42 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> ' Subject: Re: EFN$C_ENF Chalk or Cheese? 1 Message-ID: <e04u0e$enk$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi Hein,   Re: $synch with efn$c_enf   F My initial thinking was this; if $readef always returns ss$_wasset andI $waitfr always completes immediately then surely a $sync is just going to I spin around in CPU checking the iosb until something happens. (Not having I seen the $synch code I guessed it just did a $waitfr followed by a TST of K the iosb in a loop.) So imagine my surprise when this didn't happen and the H processed waited diligently for the iosb. This lead to my analogy with aH creepy-crawly (how does it just know where to go?) and then to my theoryG that a $synch with efn$c_enf is equivalent to a $wflor of all 128 event C flags followed by the iosb check. Either that or VMS has this great 2 Wait_for_iosb instruction that I don't know about.  D So, I guess the first question is "How does $synch saw its beautifulG assistant in half yet she lives?" and then back to "Is this still pants 5 compared to adhereing to the lib$get_ef convention?".    Cheers Richard Maher  G "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" <heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com> wrote in message = news:1143296207.718613.284210@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... G > Well, the documenation actually does strongly suggest using EFN$C_ENF H > for the wait form of services. So I'm glad I used nice words. I'm justC > coming from a different angle alltogether, not worrying about the C > sync/wait (output) side but more concerned about the QIO, ENQ,... , > (input) side. I guess I just hate waiting. > I > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82FINAL/5841/5841pro_020.html#index_x_604  > * > " 6.8.4 Using EFN$C_ENF Local Event FlagI > The combination of EFN$C_ENF and a status block should be used with the A > wait form of system services, or with SYS$SYNCH system service. C > EFN$C_ENF does not need to be initialized, nor does it need to be G > reserved or freed. Multiple threads of execution may concurrently use D > EFN$C_ENF without interference as long as they use a unique statusH > block for each concurrent asynchronous service. When EFN$C_ENF is usedI > with explicit event flag system services, it performs as if always set. A > You should use EFN$C_ENF to eliminate the chance for event flag  > overlap. " > I > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82FINAL/5841/5841pro_020.html#index_x_607  >  >  > Hein.  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 13:23:38 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>; Subject: Re: How to use telnet to brows web page within VMS 6 Message-ID: <442598BA.766B1C34@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   JF Mezei wrote:  > J > BTW, if you need scripted access to the internet, KERMIT is your friend.  E Best to use a version linked against some version of UCX. That should ( work even with Multinet's UCX emulation.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:02:47 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>9 Subject: Re: HP Advertise VMS  - at least to me they did. 6 Message-ID: <4425A1E7.F77C625C@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   daryljones@att.net wrote:  > ( > hp inventCustomer Timeswoman at screen > customer times homeContact HP  [snip]  H ...and this full-page ad appeared in which mainstream trade publication?  & ...on what publication / release date?  C How many potential new OpenVMS customers received this information?    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 13:21:38 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>( Subject: Re: HP Support moving offshore?6 Message-ID: <44259842.E608BD2C@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:  > 5 > In article <rI1dF6r6Vnmn@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 7 > scopelliti@encompasserve.org (Pat Scopelliti) writes:  > M > > I hear stories that HP Support is being moved to India and Costa Rica (an Q > > interesting combination).  True?  Do others feel this is a good thing or bad?  > J > HP is a company owned by shareholders.  Most, if not all, are interestedJ > in making money ("earn" seems out of place here) before they are too oldI > or ill to spend it.  Why should they care about the long-term future of  > the company?  E I guess that depends on whether you're looking for short term gain or  long term returns.  I > (Of course, this assumes that offshore support is bad for the long-term  > future of the company;  H A fair assumption, since there is no history to use as an example, whileG experience shows that low costs and wages tend to rise, often much more  quickly than one might like.   > this might not be the case.   , ...and then again, it might. Time will tell.   > Of course, it is badJ > for people previously employed who get fired because someone else can do
 > it cheaper,      ...if not as well, ...   > but, hey, that's capitalism.    D Well, yes and no. Capitalism is only part of the equation. The humanF element makes up a good chunk of the rest. For example, if folks don'tD appreciate your efforts to hold the line on costs because of what itC does to their fellow Americans, you may find yourself scrambling to F replace lost customers if they have options to replace your company or product.   > As long as the government isH > not subsidising the company (I don't know if any governments subsidise4 > HP, there is little they can do about it, either.)  C HP does a fair amount of business with the gummint, this we know. I 3 wouldn't say that constitutes a "subsidy", however.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 00:36:31 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ( Subject: Re: HP Support moving offshore?/ Message-ID: <VJ-dnR8sobdKurvZRVn-uQ@libcom.com>    David J. Dachtera wrote:1 > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:  > 5 >>In article <rI1dF6r6Vnmn@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 7 >>scopelliti@encompasserve.org (Pat Scopelliti) writes:  >> >>L >>>I hear stories that HP Support is being moved to India and Costa Rica (anP >>>interesting combination).  True?  Do others feel this is a good thing or bad? >>J >>HP is a company owned by shareholders.  Most, if not all, are interestedJ >>in making money ("earn" seems out of place here) before they are too oldI >>or ill to spend it.  Why should they care about the long-term future of  >>the company? >  > G > I guess that depends on whether you're looking for short term gain or  > long term returns. >  > I >>(Of course, this assumes that offshore support is bad for the long-term  >>future of the company; >  > J > A fair assumption, since there is no history to use as an example, whileI > experience shows that low costs and wages tend to rise, often much more  > quickly than one might like. >  >  >>this might not be the case.  >  > . > ...and then again, it might. Time will tell. >  >  >>Of course, it is badJ >>for people previously employed who get fired because someone else can do
 >>it cheaper,  >  >  >  > ...if not as well, ... >  >  >>but, hey, that's capitalism.   >  > F > Well, yes and no. Capitalism is only part of the equation. The humanH > element makes up a good chunk of the rest. For example, if folks don'tF > appreciate your efforts to hold the line on costs because of what itE > does to their fellow Americans, you may find yourself scrambling to H > replace lost customers if they have options to replace your company or
 > product. >  >  >>As long as the government isH >>not subsidising the company (I don't know if any governments subsidise4 >>HP, there is little they can do about it, either.) >  > E > HP does a fair amount of business with the gummint, this we know. I 5 > wouldn't say that constitutes a "subsidy", however.  >   D You're both forgetting something.  HP doesn't just print the money. H They have to get customers to give them money.  This is usually done by 7 providing a service the customer is willing to pay for.   E Cost cutting doesn't work so well if the customers quickly determine  F that they're still paying the money for a service, but the quality of F the service has dropped off.  Customers tend to quit sending money in F such cases.  Where's the 'making' of money then?  Stock price takes a = dip.  Investors don't like that.  Bankrupcy also annoys them.   G It's my impression that a large part of the VMS related revenues comes  D from support, software and hardware.  Tell me again how pissing off 4 these customers will make money for HP shareholders?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 13:51:17 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net># Subject: Re: Intel to sell itanium? 6 Message-ID: <44259F35.B0C17E77@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Bob Kas wrote: > / >    Jeez  will you give up on this idea ......  > 7 >  1)  You'll never get the Alpha People back together.   E ...unless you have buku bux and can hire them away from their current A gigs. They're employees. Guess where their primary loyalties lie?   H > 2)  It more then likely doesn't make sense from a financial stanpoint.  F Given how many billions of $'s Intel has pumped down the Itanic drain,C and still doesn't have a product that can stack up to EV7z or AMD's ) x86-64, that argument doesn't hold water.   H > 3)  and if you could get a new Alpha Chip out the POWER line will be a > couple/few generations ahead.   B ...but it still wouldn't run Alpha binaries, so what's your point?   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 13:54:03 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net># Subject: Re: Intel to sell itanium? 6 Message-ID: <44259FDB.3146F335@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > + > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30514   F The article mentions folks who may be interested in buying the Itanic.  E This begs the question: Is Intel interested in selling it? (...and if   they are, who could blame them?)   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:45:18 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net># Subject: Re: Intel to sell itanium? = Message-ID: <7tednY1OA9RvJLjZRVn-vg@metrocastcablevision.com>    David J. Dachtera wrote: > Bob Kas wrote:0 >>    Jeez  will you give up on this idea ...... >>8 >>  1)  You'll never get the Alpha People back together. > G > ...unless you have buku bux and can hire them away from their current C > gigs. They're employees. Guess where their primary loyalties lie?   E Perhaps you've never been fortunate enough to work in a job that you  E liked, felt held good promise for the future, and certainly paid you  L 'well enough'.  Pity:  it might have given you a better perspective on this.   > I >> 2)  It more then likely doesn't make sense from a financial stanpoint.  > H > Given how many billions of $'s Intel has pumped down the Itanic drain,E > and still doesn't have a product that can stack up to EV7z or AMD's + > x86-64, that argument doesn't hold water.   I So you think that Intel being that idiotic (assuming for the moment that  F this constitutes complete idiocy on Intel's part:  we'll address that > below) means that it makes sense for others to be equally so?  Interesting logic, that.  G Leaving aside your misconceptions about Itanic's abilities relative to  G EV7z (which Itanic, being at least 4 design years and one full process  G generation ahead, easily out-performs at the small-system level:  only  F in large systems does EV7z's performance remain competitive, and this G may change if SGI enters the commercial market there) and AMD64 (which  H trades places with Itanic in various small-system commercial benchmarks I but really can't yet address needs beyond the 4-socket level), of course.    > I >> 3)  and if you could get a new Alpha Chip out the POWER line will be a   >> couple/few generations ahead. > D > ...but it still wouldn't run Alpha binaries, so what's your point? >   G The point most likely is that not enough people give a rat's ass about  E running Alpha binaries at this point to even *start* to fund such an  C effort (see 'financial standpoint' above, and try to understand it   better this time around).   B By contrast, Intel and HP really *did* have a shot at using their F combined strength and credibility (well, enough other companies found C them sufficiently credible early-on to have bet major resources on  I Itanic) to corner the high-end market (and even potentially then replace  C x86).  And enough gullible corporations persisted in believing the  H Itanic gospel through, say, 2002 that continuing to pour money into the H effort with the idea that it might yet succeed may have been reasonable.  I When Itanic still failed to take off as predicted despite having fielded  H a credible product (and the best product, relatively speaking, that was G likely to appear for the foreseeable future:  the original Tukwila was  G planned around a new core but that got axed quite a while ago, and now  I there's no new core planned before late 2009 at the earliest - if *that*  E project survives) and AMD64 started putting real pressure on Intel's  H bread and butter markets, it didn't take Intel too long to start moving G resources away from Itanic.  It would probably have moved even more by  G now if it knew where else to put them to productive use, but there are  G only so many engineers you can throw at your core product lines before  E you start doing more harm than good (as Fred Brooks observed so long  G ago), so it doesn't cost Intel all that much to keep a bunch of mostly  0 lesser lights working on Itanic for PR purposes.  E But that does give Intel at least some reason to be interested in an  H offer to take Itanic (and these excess second-tier engineers) off their C hands.  And the poor corporations which placed significant bets on  F Itanic might have reason to make such an offer:  Intel is now largely E coasting on the results of money already spent (and almost certainly  G never to be recovered under any circumstances), and may even be coming  E somewhere near to breaking even on current Itanic cash-flow, but the  G vendors who have made Itanic a centerpiece of their product lines have  F considerably more money (and/or face) left to lose (or fail to earn), < and thus have more vested interest in continuing this farce.  A HP and SGI, of course, are in by far the worst positions of such  I vendors, but we already know how HP feels about owning technology rather  H than just hawking it, so no hope there, and it doesn't look like SGI is D in any position to do much of anything right now beyond desperately G trying to avoid going under.  The Far Eastern contingent, by contrast,  F have bucks to burn and take face quite seriously - not to mention the G standing they could gain if they could make Itanic succeed after Intel   had failed to.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 00:46:06 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> # Subject: Re: Intel to sell itanium? 9 Message-ID: <B8adnR2cxrybt7vZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Karsten Nyblad wrote:  > E >>An easier exit strategy would be to give Itanic too few development H >>resources, such that it will continue to be not quite as fast as Power' >>and having problem competing to x86.   >  > G > Yes. This is the most likely scenario and it is already playing out.   > J > However, in this scenario, there comes a time when Intel must publicallyI > admit that the 8086 will fill the market currently reserved to IA64 and 3 > that it is pointless to continue to develop IA64.   I You're all forgetting one thing.  Intel has shown a capability for being  D stubborn.  They had opportunities to use the ideas of others.  They F would not do so.  They let the HP developers push the ex-Alpha people D off a project.  I'd guess because the ex-Alpha people may have been * using ideas not developed by HP and Intel.  I Intel is a very big company.  Go look at their income and profits.  They  I can continue to be stubborn with the itanic for a long time.  Me, I hope  D they do remain stubborn, at least concerning dropping the CPU.  One F could hope for some acceptance of the ideas that made Alpha good, and G continue to allow Power to kick their asses all over the place.  But I  C doubt it.  The best opportunity they had was when Compaq gave them  I everything.  They could have enlisted the Alpha people to do their thing  G and beat the rest of the world.  They choose not to.  That opportunity  
 is long gone.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 15:29:47 -0800. From: "Schnootling" <chuckmoore55@hotmail.com>% Subject: Layered-Products CD question C Message-ID: <1143329387.537026.106140@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>   	 Hi Folks,     I've got VMS 7.3-2 up and going.: I've (manually) LICENSE REGISTERed UCX, UCX-NFS, and other layered-products stuff. B Another VMSer sent me a Layered Products CD for 7.3-2 which I have? mounted on DKA500 and visible via a SHOW DEVICE /MOUNTED: label D "ALP0732LP" is "mounted alloc" with "7788" free blocks and "0" error count.  G However, when I "DIRECTORY UNIT02$DKA500:[*.*.*]*.*", I get a 'no files ? found' message.  In the normal course of installing the layered / products, should I be seeing stuff on this CD ?   C Since I don't have TCPIP going (yet), I can't do screen-captures to ' show you exactly what I'm (not) seeing.    Chuck    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 20:50:30 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ) Subject: Re: Layered-Products CD question , Message-ID: <4425F350.BB0AA029@teksavvy.com>   Schnootling wrote:I > However, when I "DIRECTORY UNIT02$DKA500:[*.*.*]*.*", I get a 'no files A > found' message.  In the normal course of installing the layered 1 > products, should I be seeing stuff on this CD ?    what you should be doing is:  L DIR DKA500:[000000]  to get a list of files and directories at the top level= DIR DKA500:[000000...]*.*;* to get a list of ALL files in all ) subdirectories starting at the top level.    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 18:22:03 -0800. From: "Schnootling" <chuckmoore55@hotmail.com>) Subject: Re: Layered-Products CD question C Message-ID: <1143339723.331239.129000@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Hi JF,   Got it. (sigh) No TCPIP.     Thanks for the quick reply,  Chuck    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 06:49:46 +0800 ! From: borod <nospam@acrossthe.eq> 3 Subject: Re: Lesbians living on Venus! NASA Coverup : Message-ID: <g2ib22p0n5jau9qpm4fnimgv0bk91jsk7s@127.0.0.1>  5 "Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrow@earthlink.net> wrote:    >  >borobod wrote:  >  >> Nomen Nescio wrote: >> >> >JF Mezei trolled:  >> >L >> >>The real reason NASA is covering up life on venus is that it knows thatK >> >>Venus is populated only by beautiful women who, by necessity, would be M >> >>lesbians capable of reproduction. Knowledge of this would greatly reduce K >> >>the popularity of the current government in the USA which garners much - >> >>of its support on its anti gay policies.  >> >> L >> >>The mere thought of all those beautiful women soaping each other in theM >> >>shower would be enough to turn most males in the USA to support gays and H >> >>thus the current government would lose some of its support base and% >> >>stand to lose the next election.  >> >> K >> >>This is the REAL reason NASA was instructed by the white house to keep , >> >>the existence of Venusian women secret. >> >> F >> >>However, there are rumours that Victoria's Secrets as well as theL >> >>california porn industry may join forces to lobby the government to notJ >> >>only admit to the females on venus, but also strike a free trade dealM >> >>with Venus to allow Victoria's Secret to penetrate a huge female market, L >> >>and for the porn industry to source great new actresses for its movies. >> >> J >> >>Just imagine the titles such as "Debbie does Venus". And if NASA getsL >> >>royalties from those movies, as well as revenues from transporting tonsL >> >>of Victoria's Secret lingerie to Venus, its budgets would be sufficient" >> >>to fund its other endeavours. >>C >> Lesbians in space!  Another scandal for the Bush administration!  >>H >> I bet Rove is behind this.  He looks like the kind of guy who keeps a6 >> secret apartment full of porn and whips and chains. >>I >> >Does your mom know how much time you spend down there in the basement  >> >watching lesbian porn? >> >I >> >As you approach your 50th birthday, will your parents finally ask you  >> >to get a job and move out? >> >C >> >http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/5e814528bf75efa9  >>F >> What you have to understand is that it is common for people in manyG >> countries to live at home until late in life.  In Italy for instance E >> men stay at home until their forties or in some cases even beyond.  >  > 5 >Except JF will still be at home until he is _1_40...   3 Why is he having such a hard time leaving the nest?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 06:51:01 +0800 ! From: borod <nospam@acrossthe.eq> 3 Subject: Re: Lesbians living on Venus! NASA Coverup : Message-ID: <p8ib22tj6gak1d4blq35o7uf9n91t9986t@127.0.0.1>  + "d b turner" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote:   3 >What is the cut-off age for Astronaut training????  >  >:0) >  >DT   C Be careful.  Those space lesbians might have some secret weapons we  earthlings have never heard of.     A >"Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrow@earthlink.net> wrote in message  > >news:1143232658.388302.242130@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com... >> >> Nomen Nescio wrote: >> >>> JF Mezei trolled:  >>> L >>> >The real reason NASA is covering up life on venus is that it knows thatK >>> >Venus is populated only by beautiful women who, by necessity, would be M >>> >lesbians capable of reproduction. Knowledge of this would greatly reduce K >>> >the popularity of the current government in the USA which garners much - >>> >of its support on its anti gay policies.  >>> > L >>> >The mere thought of all those beautiful women soaping each other in theM >>> >shower would be enough to turn most males in the USA to support gays and H >>> >thus the current government would lose some of its support base and% >>> >stand to lose the next election.  >>> > K >>> >This is the REAL reason NASA was instructed by the white house to keep , >>> >the existence of Venusian women secret. >>> > F >>> >However, there are rumours that Victoria's Secrets as well as theL >>> >california porn industry may join forces to lobby the government to notJ >>> >only admit to the females on venus, but also strike a free trade dealM >>> >with Venus to allow Victoria's Secret to penetrate a huge female market, L >>> >and for the porn industry to source great new actresses for its movies. >>> > J >>> >Just imagine the titles such as "Debbie does Venus". And if NASA getsL >>> >royalties from those movies, as well as revenues from transporting tonsL >>> >of Victoria's Secret lingerie to Venus, its budgets would be sufficient" >>> >to fund its other endeavours. >>> I >>> Does your mom know how much time you spend down there in the basement  >>> watching lesbian porn? >>> I >>> As you approach your 50th birthday, will your parents finally ask you  >>> to get a job and move out? >>> C >>> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/5e814528bf75efa9  >> >> >> FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS 
 >>   About >> JF MEZEI  >>C >> The "nobody" troll of rec.travel.air and "John Doe" troll of the  >> sci.space.* newsgroups. >> >>" >> (Last Revised - August 3, 2005) >> >> >> Written by: >> >> >> Marc Bissonnette  >> 1725 Beachburg Road >> Beachburg, Ontario  K0J 1C0 >> (613) 582-7056 2 >> d r a g n e t @ i n t e r n a l y s i s . c o m >> http://www.internalysis.com >> http://www.canadianisp.com  >> >> >> and >> >> >> Darrell Larose  >> 121 Northwestern Ave  >> Ottawa, ON K1Y 0M1  >> (613) 725-0245 & >> c o t a 3 4 8 @ r o g e r s . c o m4 >> a d 6 0 7 @ F r e e N e t . C a r l e t o n . C A >> >> >> 1.  Who is JF Mezei?  >> >>F >> Jean-Francois Mezei is the worst netkook and megatroll to have everF >> hit rec.travel.air and various other usenet newsgroups.  He is also7 >> one of the longest running trolls in usenet history.  >> >>F >> ***WARNING:  JF MEZEI IS A ROGUE CANCELLER.  HE FORGES THE NAME ANDF >> E-MAIL ADDRESS OF USENET POSTERS HE DOES NOT AGREE WITH AND CANCELS >> THEIR MESSAGES.***  >> >>H >> If you participate in the same newsgroups he does, you should monitorH >> the control.cancel newsgroup.  If you find that he has cancelled your) >> messages, forward a copies of them to: & >> a b u s e @ t e k s a v v y . c o m& >> a b u s e @ a s t r a w e b . c o m& >> a b u s e @ t e r a n e w s . c o m >> >>& >> See also http://www.usenetabuse.com >> >>% >> 2.  How long has he been trolling?  >> >> >> For well over a decade. >> >> >> 3.  Where does he live? >> >> >> Montreal, Quebec, Canada  >> >> >> Jean-Francois Mezei >> 86 Harwood Gate >> Beaconsfield, QC H9W3A3 >> (514) 992-0474  >> (514) 695-8259  >> >>$ >> His current e-mail addresses are:* >> j f m e z e i @ t e k s a v v y . c o m, >> j f m e z e i @ v a x i n a t i o n . c a >> >>, >> His website is http://www.vaxination.ca . >> >>- >> 4.  What makes him such a malicious troll?  >> >>F >> His trolling is constant, repetitious, relentless.  Once he invadesG >> your newsgroup he will stay for decades, troll around the clock, day I >> in and day out, every day of the year, for years and years on end.  He C >> does not listen to pleas to stop, he does not listen to anything 7 >> anyone tells him, he does not pay attention when the D >> misinformation/disinformation he posts is corrected, he just goesF >> right on trolling year in, year out like a little child holding hisI >> ears closed while yelling "I can't hear you, I can't hear anything you  >> say!" >> >>  >> 5.  What does he troll about? >> >>I >> His favorite subjects are USA-bashing and anything to do with sex.  He E >> hates the USA and Americans and will hijack any thread and turn it F >> into a USA-bashing fest.  If he can't do that then he'll just start >> making lewd posts.  >> >>' >> 6.  What does he hate about the USA?  >> >>H >> Everything!  He is part of a larger group of Canadian trolls who haveH >> a visceral hatred of the USA, motivated by envy mostly.  The USA is aE >> happier, better, more successful version of their country and they A >> can't stand it.  Some of JF's favorite troll bait is "the Bush H >> Regime", "the Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz axis of evil", "Americans areE >> brainwashed", "Cars are evil", "SUVs are evil", "all Americans are  >> stupid" etc.  >> >>& >> 7.  What about his sexual trolling? >> >>H >> Ah, that is JF at his trolling best.  No sexual topic is too bizarre.A >> Among his favorites are child sexuality, masturbation, women's D >> genitalia, sex toys, circumcision, the sex lives of Americans (of# >> course) ... the list is endless.  >> >> >> 8.  Circumcision??? >> >>I >> Yes, JF trolled the circumcision newsgroups for years.  He still likes ? >> to insert circumcision into his trolling every now and then. F >> Apparently, JF was traumatized as a child because his parents, poorE >> Hungarian immigrants to Canada, left him uncircumcised when he was E >> born, as is the custom in most of the world.  Growing up in Canada C >> where male infant circumcision was prevalent at the time, he was B >> psychologically scarred (so he claims).  As soon as he could heC >> arranged to get himself snipped, and then joined the brigades of H >> circumcision proselytizers in the newsgroups advocating the joys of aC >> free willy.  His main argument is how much better he was able to E >> masturbate after getting circumcised without that "pesky foreskin" I >> getting in the way of his enjoyment, and he has made it his mission in * >> life to spread the circumcision gospel. >> >>C >> 9.  What's his interest in child sexuality?  That sounds kind of 
 >> freaky. >> >>C >> Well, everything having to do with Mezei *is* freaky.  Among the H >> subjects dear to his heart are the genitals of little boys and girls,H >> especially little boy's foreskins (and how tight they are) and littleC >> girls' hymens.  He is also a tireless activist and advocate that F >> children should be taught to masturbate early on so that they don't/ >> grow up "sexually repressed like Americans".  >> >>H >> He also counsels all parents of boys that they constantly check theirF >> little boys' penises and foreskins frequently to ensure a good fit,I >> proper movement, and that they be able to masturbate with no problems. D >> Utopia for JF would be a world full of parents manipulating their >> little boys' penises. >> >>C >> 10.  Ewww!  This guy is sounding more and more disgusting by the . >> minute!  Are you sure about all this stuff? >> >>G >> Yes, you can check the google archives for yourself.  There's over a * >> decade full of Mezei trolling in there. >> >>F >> 11.  How can I find all that out, doesn't he change aliases all the >> time like all trolls do?  >> >>E >> Of course!  See the appendix below for a list of many of his known  >> trolling aliases. >> >>D >> 12.  So where does this guy get so much time to troll, doesn't he >> work? >> >>H >> Ha ha ha!  JF hasn't worked a day in his life!  He's an adult baby, aF >> grown man who still lives at home with mommy and sleeps all day andC >> trolls the newsgroups all night.  In his free time when he isn't I >> trolling he likes to ride his bike down to Dorval Airport and race the & >> planes down the runway in his bike. >> >>< >> 13.  That seems strange, is he mentally ill or something? >> >>G >> Bingo!  JF is a boy in a grown man's body.  Psychologically he never D >> got past the age of 13 and got stuck in a world of bathroom humorI >> (i.e. "pull my finger!") and locker room antics that he has never been  >> able to outgrow.  >> >>F >> 14.  Speaking of locker rooms, I heard he has a sexual fetish about >> them, is that true? >> >>C >> Yes!  JF goes to the gym not to work out but to watch men in the E >> locker room.  He loves to post about the male sexual organs he has @ >> seen in locker rooms over the years, especially his unnaturalI >> obsession with foreskins.  He stalks the men in locker rooms trying to E >> measure how much foreskin they have, or how little is left if they I >> have been circumcised.  He gets extremely excited when he spots a case  >> of phimosis.  >> >>C >> 15.  Oh my Gawd, this guy is nuts!  He should be locked up in an  >> insane asylum!  >> >>G >> Yep, JF is certifiably insane.  He lives in a black helicopter / tin > >> foil hat world where others are out to get him.  The key toI >> understanding JF is that he sees himself as a VICTIM.  To JF the world G >> is out to get him, especially the USA.  Victimhood is what JF is all 	 >> about.  >> >>G >> What seems to have sent him over the edge was when the Canadian rail G >> system was "killed", in his words.  He used to be a major train nut, G >> spotting trains, writing down their numbers and chasing them down at E >> the train yard like a good freak.  Then he turned his attention to F >> aviation.  Major events that made him fall head first deep into theF >> abyss were the bankruptcy of Canadian Airlines and their subsequentI >> takeover by Air Canada (whom he sees as evil).  So paranoid is he that H >> when an Air Canada plane crashed he claimed that Air Canada employeesG >> went lurking about in the night with buckets of white paint to cover H >> up the Air Canada markings.  He saw that as symbolic of a cover up of> >> the crash investigation.  He has never recovered from this. >> >>9 >> 16.  Where else does he hang out, I want to avoid him!  >> >>I >> His main haunt on usenet is comp.os.vms, a newsgroup dedicated to some H >> ancient, arcane, obsolete piece of vax crapware that nobody has takenD >> seriously for decades.  JF hangs out there with other misfits andF >> social dropouts who share his psychological traumas, crying for the4 >> good old vax days of yore.  It's really pathetic! >> >>$ >> 17.  Where else does he hang out? >> >>C >> can.internet.highspeed, alt.cellular.fido, and a few other geeky G >> computer groups.  For a while after the Shuttle Columbia disaster he E >> invaded the sci.space groups, sci.space.shuttle in particular, and I >> trolled it relentlessly with the anti-American, conspiracy theory crap H >> he's so famous for.  But they ran him off that group and he had to goG >> crawling back to comp.os.vms with his tail between his legs, licking  >> his wounds. >> >>D >> 18.  It sounds like comp.os.vms is the only group he respects and >> doesn't troll.  >> >>I >> Pretty much.  For a megatroll like JF it's impossible not to troll, so A >> he slips in troll bait every now and then, but by and large he D >> respects comp.os.vms, and, more importantly, he tries to hide hisD >> trolling activities from them so they won't find out what a major >> netkook he is.  >> >>I >> 19.  Wow, sounds like he should be exposed so they will know what kind  >> of psycho he is!  >> >>H >> Exactly.  Feel free to post all his trolls to comp.os.vms.  And whileI >> you're at it post them to can.internet.highspeed and alt.cellular.fido B >> too.  And to alt.usenet.kooks, a group for the likes of JF, and >> news.admin.net-abuse.usenet.  >> >>7 >> 20.  What else can I do?  Is there an abuse address?  >> >>G >> Yes, you should send complaints along with copies of his troll posts  >> to: >> >>& >> a b u s e @ t e k s a v v y . c o m, >> d n s a d m i n @ t e k s a v v y . c o m& >> a b u s e @ t e r a n e w s . c o m& >> a b u s e @ a s t r a w e b . c o m >> >>" >> also http://www.usenetabuse.com >> >>: >> You can also call directly, troll free, 1-877-779-1575. >> >> >> TekSavvy Solutions Inc. >> 330 Richmond St., Suite 205 >> Chatham, ON, Canada
 >> N7M 1P7 >> >>G >> And feel free to distribute this FAQ freely.  Post it to newsgroups, F >> email it to people, you may host it at your own website, send it toG >> newspapers and magazines that do Internet articles or anything to do   >> with Montreal or Canada, etc. >> >> >> *** APPENDIX ***  >> >>C >> List of some of the many trolling aliases used by Mezei over the I >> years.  This is only a partial list, he has so many it's impossible to  >> compile a full list.  >> >>* >> j f m e z e i @ t e k s a v v y . c o m: >> j f m e z e i . s p a m n o t @ t e k s a v v y . c o m$ >> j f m e z e i @ i s t o p . c o m4 >> j f m e z e i . s p a m n o t @ i s t o p . c o m* >> j f m e z e i @ v i d e o t r o n . c a0 >> j f m e z e i @ v l . v i d e o t r o n . c a8 >> n o s p a m . j f m e z e i @ v i d e o t r o n . c a> >> " j f m e z e i " @ v i d e o t r o n . c a [ n o s p a m ] >> >>- >> nobody <n o b o d y @ n o b o d y . c o m> - >> nobody <n o b o d y @ n o b o d y . n e t> - >> nobody <n o b o d y @ n o b o d y . o r g> / >> nobody <n o b o d y @ n o b o d y . i n f o> - >> nobody <n o b o d y @ n o b o d y . i n t> / >> nobody <n o b o d y @ n o t h i n g . n i l> ) >> nobody <n o b o d y @ n u l l . d e v>  >> >>& >> Janice Staples <jstap...@noaol.com>, >> Lorenna Bobbit <lbobbit@ginsu_knives.com>* >> Lando Calrisian <Lcalris...@empire.org> >> muklak <muk...@eskimo.net>  >> Sheep skin <s...@station.au> & >> snowy squirrel <squir...@nest.tree>, >> Conspiracy Theory <conspir...@theory.org>) >> Lou Raccoon <L.Racc...@wilderness.org> ' >> Flapping Labias <fla...@anatomy.org> ( >> Throbbing vulva <t.vu...@anatomy.org>  >> Twin Gonads <t...@gonads.com>( >> Loose Scrotum <l.scro...@anatomy.org>% >> Raised Organ <R.Or...@anatomy.org> ' >> Popped Cherry <P.Che...@anatomy.org> 0 >> Monica Lewinski <billclin...@westchester.com>+ >> Deep Fried Foreskin <d...@mcdonalds.com> $ >> Aroma of Smegma <a...@chanel.org> >> Wet fart <w.F...@smell.org>* >> Pubic dandruff <P.dandr...@anatomy.org>+ >> Voluptuous Nipple <V.nip...@anatomy.org> ) >> Inserted Finger <I.Fin...@anatomy.org> " >> Pubic Nair <sha...@anatomy.org>* >> Flatulent Meatus <F.Mea...@anatomy.org>( >> Lihk Mhygroin <L.MyGr...@anatomy.org>  >> Pre Khum <P.K...@anatomy.org>$ >> Phi Mosis <Phi.Mo...@anatomy.org>& >> Bal Anatis <Bal.Ana...@anatomy.org># >> Fren Ullum <F.Ul...@anatomy.org> ' >> Ivanna Getlaid <I.Getl...@onani.org> ) >> Ivanna Wankalot <I.Wanka...@onani.org> ' >> Ivanna Umpalot <Humpa...@drevil.com> - >> Wan Tnoneofit <W.Tnoneo...@weirdnames.org> ! >> Wan Itbad <W.It...@inneed.org> $ >> Wan Towank <W.ToW...@anatomy.org>" >> Wan Tolik <w.to...@anatomy.org>' >> Testos Terone <t.ter...@anatomy.org> $ >> Upper Gonad <U.Go...@anatomy.org>$ >> Right Gonad <R.Go...@anatomy.org># >> Left Gonad <L.Go...@anatomy.org> ' >> Tyson's Glands <Tyso...@anatomy.org> ! >> Nose Hair <n.h...@anatomy.org> ( >> Coronal Sulcus <C.Sul...@anatomy.org>( >> Corpus Cavernus <manh...@anatomy.org>' >> Armpit moisture <arm...@anatomy.org>  >> Onani Room <o...@hotels.com> ) >> Arnie's Banana <wei...@terminator.com> + >> Raised eyebrows <r.eyebr...@anatomy.org> ( >> Vas Deferens <V.defer...@anatomy.org>( >> Naked Canuck <N.can...@naturists.org>) >> Arni's socks <Smelly.So...@arnold.org> - >> Notable Exception <N.except...@untied.com> ) >> Unpopped Cherry <U.Che...@anatomy.org> * >> Tatooed Ovaries <T.Ovar...@anatomy.org>* >> Pierced eyelid <p.eye...@piercings.org>+ >> Limp Tomato <limp.tom...@vegetables.org> / >> Eggplant Earrings <e.earri...@piercings.org> 1 >> Banana Underpants <B.Underpa...@hillfiger.org>  >> Naval Lint <n...@lint.mil> * >> Ingrown Toenail <i.toen...@anatomy.org>( >> Empty Stomach <E.Stom...@anatomy.org>' >> Full Stomach <f.stom...@anatomy.org> $ >> Smelly Cat <S...@friends.nbc.com>) >> Torn Ligament <T.Ligam...@anatomy.org> & >> Art Tistic <A.Tis...@modern.museum>+ >> Furry Raccoon <F.Racc...@wilderness.org> ( >> Wet Racoon <W.Rac...@wildnerness.org>% >> Mad Racoon <M.Rac...@wildlife.org> ( >> Lazy Racoon <L.Rac...@wilderness.org>) >> Eaten Racoon <E.Racc...@mcdonalds.com> * >> Happy Raccoon <H.Rac...@wilderness.org>, >> Sleeping Racoon <S.Rac...@wilderness.org>* >> Hungry Racoon <H.Rac...@wilderness.org>% >> Horny Raccoon <H.Rac...@fauna.org> + >> Smart Raccoon <S.Racc...@wilderness.org> / >> George W Raccoon <GW.Racc...@wilderness.org> . >> Ronald McRaccoon <r.racc...@wilderness.org>- >> Thirsty Raccoon <T.Racc...@wilderness.org> + >> Johnny Raccoon <J.Rac...@wilderness.org> * >> Oshi Santo <O.Sa...@nx01.starfleet.org>- >> Oishi Chinko <O.Chi...@nx01.starfleet.org> " >> T.Yellow <T.Yel...@nowhere.com> >> Q <q...@continuum.net>  >> Borg Queen <1...@borg.org> - >> Ronald Wilkerson <wilkers...@sympatico.ca> , >> John Balterman <j.balter...@sympatico.ca> >> >>@ >> *DISTRIBUTE FREELY* *DISTRIBUTE FREELY* *DISTRIBUTE FREELY* " >> >> </> >> >>D >> Wow!  This "JF" character is *really* sorta wierd, ain't he...??? >> >> --  >> Best  >> Greg  >>   >    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 16:46:02 -0800 From: "Mattu" <gocism@aol.com>3 Subject: Re: Lesbians living on Venus! NASA Coverup C Message-ID: <1143333962.050251.297730@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   C Be careful.  Those space lesbians might have some secret weapons we  earthlings have never heard of.    /on stereotype  F I heard the weapon was developed by Subaru and contains a neutered catG dressed in flannel, full of macaroni and cheese and wearing comfortable  shoes.     /off lesbian stereotype    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 02:10:39 GMT - From: "C. Markiewicz" <cmarkiew@GPODublin.ie> 3 Subject: Re: Lesbians living on Venus! NASA Coverup , Message-ID: <4425F818.EC17BE4D@GPODublin.ie>   borod wrote:  7 > "Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrow@earthlink.net> wrote:  >  > >  > >borobod wrote:  > >  > >> Nomen Nescio wrote: > >> > >> >JF Mezei trolled:  > >> >N > >> >>The real reason NASA is covering up life on venus is that it knows thatM > >> >>Venus is populated only by beautiful women who, by necessity, would be O > >> >>lesbians capable of reproduction. Knowledge of this would greatly reduce M > >> >>the popularity of the current government in the USA which garners much / > >> >>of its support on its anti gay policies.   M You realize that Thurgood Tucker et al would probably cite this post as proof  .......  -- Connie Markiewicz  Cumann Na mBan  E "I'm Minister for Gun-Running, Daylight Robbery, and General Mayhem." 6 Michael Collins, Finance Minister, Irish Republic 1918   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 21:22:55 -0800 From: Suppedisne@hotmail.com3 Subject: Re: Lesbians living on Venus! NASA Coverup C Message-ID: <1143350575.180652.187420@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    borod wrote:- > "d b turner" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote:  > 5 > >What is the cut-off age for Astronaut training????  > >  > >:0) > >  > >DT  > E > Be careful.  Those space lesbians might have some secret weapons we ! > earthlings have never heard of.  > ) The alledged Weapons of Muff Destruction!    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 20:04:35 -08007 From: "Dr. Thurgood Tucker" <father-tucker@wowmail.com> 6 Subject: Re: Lesbians SUFFERING on Venus: NASA CoverupC Message-ID: <1143345875.445114.296980@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>    C=2E Markiewicz wrote:  L > You realize that Thurgood Tucker et al would probably cite this post as p= roof	 > .......   E I already know that there are already many thousands of sick lesbians E on Venus.  The pits of hell in the bowels of the earth were filled to D capacity decades ago.  Homosexuals have contributed significantly toG overpopulation in hell for the last century.  So it was moved to Venus, > where the temperature is several hundred degrees and where theG atmospheric pressure is intense.  The homosexuals on Venus are far from F beautiful, however.  They are suffering eternal torment for their manyC sins, chief among which is denying their bodies to the husbands God  chose for them.   D I don't need heathens to tell me what goes on in the hereafter.  GodA already revealed the Hidden Truth to me through the holy "Kingdom  Come!" Church newsletter.   A Laying the WHOLE Gospel Truth on the line for scoffers every day,      Reverend Dr. TRUTH Gospel Preacher Extraordinaire    1 =A9 2006 by the First Universal Christian Kingdom E All rights reserved.  Unauthorized reproduction is always prohibited.    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 22:51:30 -0800- From: "Dillon Amburgey" <dillona@dillona.com>  Subject: RMS With C++ B Message-ID: <1143355890.390104.72850@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Hello everyone, D I am a OpenVMS newbie, and I like the OS very much. I have a limitedF knowledge of BASIC, so I would like to be able to write programs usingG RMS with C++. The problem is that I cannot seem to find any information G about this on Google, and I am not actually sure that this is possible.  Could anyone offer any advice?
 Thank you, Dillon Amburgey    ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 22:31:17 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - Subject: Re: Stupid DCL tricks - Quiet logout ( Message-ID: <e04gbl$4pb$2@pcls4.std.com>  ) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:   G >wasn't possible.  One of the reasons is STOP/ID which is a relatively  I >big hammer.  Exit handlers and such do not run.  My memory is that even  G >inner mode exit handlers do not run.  Not sure anymore, but I believe  K >the STOP/ID runs in kernel mode.  It's been a while, memory id going fast.   G There is now $ STOP/EXIT=mode, which means that exit handlers at (mode) G or higher run.  /EXIT=EXECUTIVE_MODE is listed as the default.  I don't > know whether this means that a simple $ STOP/ID operates as ifE /EXIT=EXECUTIVE_MODE has been specified, but I don't think so. I knew   $ STOP /ID as a very big hammer.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 23:04:11 GMT 0 From: John Santos <john.santos@post.harvard.edu>- Subject: Re: Stupid DCL tricks - Quiet logout > Message-ID: <MPG.1e8f9677d81654d198970e@news.bellatlantic.net>  I In article <e04gbl$4pb$2@pcls4.std.com>, moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com   says... + > Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > I > >wasn't possible.  One of the reasons is STOP/ID which is a relatively  K > >big hammer.  Exit handlers and such do not run.  My memory is that even  I > >inner mode exit handlers do not run.  Not sure anymore, but I believe  M > >the STOP/ID runs in kernel mode.  It's been a while, memory id going fast.  > I > There is now $ STOP/EXIT=mode, which means that exit handlers at (mode) I > or higher run.  /EXIT=EXECUTIVE_MODE is listed as the default.  I don't @ > know whether this means that a simple $ STOP/ID operates as ifG > /EXIT=EXECUTIVE_MODE has been specified, but I don't think so. I knew " > $ STOP /ID as a very big hammer. >   C This thread started out talking about killing the executing process C (I.e. stop/id=0).  Assuming that's what we are still talking about, G doesn't the user-mode exit handler get called when you invoke the image = that executes the "STOP" command?  Or is STOP built into DCL?  (HELP STOP doesn't say.)   --   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 13:31:46 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>P Subject: Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer6 Message-ID: <44259AA2.1B569121@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   "Steven N. Hirsch" wrote:  >  > David J. Dachtera wrote: > H > >>> David Turner at Island is probably single handedly responsible forH > >>> putting more cheap Alpha boxes in the hands of home users than anyK > >>> other vendor. He's got a bunch of DS10ls going for $89 dollars at the 
 > >>> moment.  > J > Really? If that's the case they are well-hidden on Island's web site.  IC > just spent 5 minutes poking around and found nothing of the sort.   C Islandco seems to generally announce such things via the newsgroups G since that's where the bulk of the demand is found. Alpha (and VMS!) is A such a well-kept secret that the mainstream has long forgotten it / ("Didn't that die back in March (15) of 2001?")    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 13:35:44 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>P Subject: Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer6 Message-ID: <44259B90.3D9C9338@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Neil Rieck wrote:  > [snip]F > 4. A very rational engineer at HP once told me some folks in OpenVMSK > engineering are convinced that the first 4 letters of "comp.os.vms" stand K > for COMPLAIN. Attempts to help out usually result in some kind of attack. M > (I heard this a couple of years back but now feel the need to pass it on to N > the newsgroup because there are a few bad apples who would rather whine than* > constructively improve/promote OpenVMS.)  
 <metaphor>D Sometimes, the bucket *IS* half-empty, and telling the water-bearer,F "Oh, sure! We have plenty!" doesn't carry very far when that bucket is. leaking faster than you can catch the outflow. </metaphor>    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 12:36:37 -0800' From: "toby" <toby@telegraphics.com.au> P Subject: Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application DeveloperB Message-ID: <1143318997.694837.41000@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>   Alexander Schreiber wrote:( > toby <toby@telegraphics.com.au> wrote: > >  > > Christopher Browne wrote: R > >> Clinging to sanity, "toby" <toby@telegraphics.com.au> mumbled into her beard:! > >> > davidc@montagar.com wrote: J > >> >> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a newP > >> >> OpenVMS Programmer.  Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together. > >> >M > >> > It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90 B > >> > - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQLK > >> > applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQL L > >> > has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) -/ > >> > whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-)  > >>E > >> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a G > >> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the F > >> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there... > > K > > MySQL is a rather different animal. For one thing, it offers SQL out of K > > the box. Its popularity elsewhere means that skills can be transferred; K > > MySQL is easy to configure and maintain. Web applications built for the D > > LAMP stack become portable to VMS. MySQL offers transactions andE > > replication (and v5 includes triggers, stored procedures, and the C > > kitchen sink). Just a few things that come immediately to mind.  > + > It also doesn't believe in data integrity   E I'm not sure what you mean by this. The developers may disagree. When  did you last use it?   > and has very dubious ideasF > about SQL and what a RDBMS is supposed to do. Just google for "MySQL > gotchas".   E Yes, I am well aware. Nonetheless, the differences cited above remain  valid.   > 
 > Regards, >        Alex. > --O > What they (MySQL) lose in usability, they gain back in benchmarks, and that's P > all that matters: getting the wrong answer really fast.  -- Randal L. Schwartz   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Mar 2006 23:43:13 GMT) From: Hans Bachner <Hans@Bachner.priv.at> P Subject: Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer0 Message-ID: <e04igp.7l.1@usenet.bachner.priv.at>  , Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> wrote:   <snip>  B > I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on aD > platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into theC > operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...   J I agree that I wouldn't use MySQL to develop a new application on OpenVMS J for various reasons, but if there is an application which already runs on I various platforms (usually Windows, Linux and/or other Unix flavours) it  ? can easily be used on OpenVMS as well. And there are plenty of  < tools/goodies/utilities out there which fit into this frame.   Hans.    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2006 18:25:44 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) P Subject: Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer3 Message-ID: <Lkyd6KnHkXqz@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <e04igp.7l.1@usenet.bachner.priv.at>, Hans Bachner <Hans@Bachner.priv.at> writes:. > Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> wrote: > 	 > <snip>  C >> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a E >> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the D >> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there... > L > I agree that I wouldn't use MySQL to develop a new application on OpenVMS L > for various reasons, but if there is an application which already runs on K > various platforms (usually Windows, Linux and/or other Unix flavours) it  A > can easily be used on OpenVMS as well. And there are plenty of  > > tools/goodies/utilities out there which fit into this frame.  L Perhaps there should be some Logo of honor "Developed Specifically for VMS".   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 01:14:13 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 8 Subject: Re: VMS Securing Delivery - Just Ask The Vendor/ Message-ID: <gKqdnQbG4pUGrbvZRVn-jw@libcom.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:C > Is it just me or do others find this much more annoying than Dave  > announcing the new VMS book?  . Dave announcing the new book was not annoying.  - Acquire some tolerance, the guy is suffering.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 01:16:27 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 8 Subject: Re: VMS Securing Delivery - Just Ask The Vendor/ Message-ID: <gKqdnQHG4pW8rLvZRVn-jw@libcom.com>    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > D >> Is it just me or do others find this much more annoying than Dave >> announcing the new VMS book?  >> >> bill  >>E >> In article <1143306121.062542.79000@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, B >>     "d_gillbilly@hotmail.com" <d_gillbilly@hotmail.com> writes: >> >>> Just ask the questions!  >>>  >>> Mr Vendor, >>> 5 >>> I know business is important, but so is my house.  >>>  > <big snip> > H > It's MORE annoying because it's not clear, to me anyway, what all the  > drum beating is about. >   F His VMS work is going away.  It's an initial reaction to pain.  He'll   get over it, the rest of us did.  C How can it be 'more' annoying than something that was not annoying?    Bill gave us a false delima.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 18:52:26 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG- Subject: Re: Where do DSA devices come from ? 0 Message-ID: <00A5339B.D0121325@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <0nDJYVQX5odd@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  >  > V >In article <00A53387.D7CE90BC@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:{ >> In article <1143302790.196510.96330@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "Ralf Gaertner" <ralf.gaertner@t-systems.com> writes:  >>>  >>>  >>>  >>>Larry Kilgallen schrieb:  >>> C >>>> On an Alpha system with the latest copy of VMS I have verifyed K >>>> that the VOLSHAD license is present and the SHADOWING system parameter # >>>> has a value of 2 after reboot.  >>>>M >>>> But I see no DSA device, and attempting a mount does not see one either.  >>> E >>>Did you set a nonzero ALLOCLASS parameter? Which MOUNT command did H >>>issue? What is the error message if you perform the comand manually ? >>  K >> Zero ALLOCLASS, I have found, is one of the major flaws people encounter  >> setting up volume shadowing.  > C >My problem turned out to be that I had specified /SHADOW after the B >volume label, but things worked when I moved it before the volumeA >label.  That violates my understanding of how DCL commands work. 	 >Oh well.   J ???  DCL has positional qualifiers.  Maybe you need to elaborate by way of# an example of your failing command.    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:15:20 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>- Subject: Re: Where do DSA devices come from ? 6 Message-ID: <4425A4D8.B1773398@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > z > In article <1143302790.196510.96330@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "Ralf Gaertner" <ralf.gaertner@t-systems.com> writes: > >  > >  > >  > >Larry Kilgallen schrieb:  > > C > >> On an Alpha system with the latest copy of VMS I have verifyed K > >> that the VOLSHAD license is present and the SHADOWING system parameter # > >> has a value of 2 after reboot.  > >>M > >> But I see no DSA device, and attempting a mount does not see one either.  > > E > >Did you set a nonzero ALLOCLASS parameter? Which MOUNT command did H > >issue? What is the error message if you perform the comand manually ? > J > Zero ALLOCLASS, I have found, is one of the major flaws people encounter > setting up volume shadowing.  D Since the dawn of port-ALLOCLASS, and the fact the DG(A) devices areG always ALLOCLASS 1, I keep hoping that this will someday get fixed. The H node itself does not need a non-zero ALLOCLASS, except that HBVS demands it.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:26:17 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>- Subject: Re: Where do DSA devices come from ? 6 Message-ID: <4425A769.EE587E21@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > e > In article <0nDJYVQX5odd@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  > >  > > X > >In article <00A53387.D7CE90BC@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:} > >> In article <1143302790.196510.96330@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "Ralf Gaertner" <ralf.gaertner@t-systems.com> writes:  > >>>  > >>>  > >>>  > >>>Larry Kilgallen schrieb:  > >>> E > >>>> On an Alpha system with the latest copy of VMS I have verifyed M > >>>> that the VOLSHAD license is present and the SHADOWING system parameter % > >>>> has a value of 2 after reboot.  > >>>>O > >>>> But I see no DSA device, and attempting a mount does not see one either.  > >>> G > >>>Did you set a nonzero ALLOCLASS parameter? Which MOUNT command did J > >>>issue? What is the error message if you perform the comand manually ? > >>M > >> Zero ALLOCLASS, I have found, is one of the major flaws people encounter ! > >> setting up volume shadowing.  > > E > >My problem turned out to be that I had specified /SHADOW after the D > >volume label, but things worked when I moved it before the volumeC > >label.  That violates my understanding of how DCL commands work.  > >Oh well.  > L > ???  DCL has positional qualifiers.  Maybe you need to elaborate by way of% > an example of your failing command.   : I took it to mean he was trying to do something like this:  0 $ MOUNT/SYSTEM DSA1 VOL_LABEL/SHADOW=(DKA0,DKB0)  C I've always seen /SHADOW immediately adjacent to the virtual device  name, like so:  0 $ MOUNT/SYSTEM DSA1/SHADOW=(DKA0,DKB0) VOL_LABEL  > I'd never tried poking with it to see if /SHADOW is treated as positional or what.   ( That said, I've had this syntax work me:  * $ INIT/SYSTEM/SHADOW=(DKA0,DKB0) VOL_LABEL  F ...when creating new shadow-sets (no initial copy-in on the subsequentG first MOUNT). May have been new in V7.3-1 or some ECO for it. I forget.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:16:15 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> - Subject: Re: Where do DSA devices come from ? , Message-ID: <4425B31D.7280DEE1@teksavvy.com>  E You need to have a chat with your VMS parents who will explain to you L all about the birds and the bees and where DSA devices come from :-) :-) :-)    @ SHADOWING set to 2 allows  to create shadowsets with MOUNT DSAx: /SHADOW=(dev1:, dev2: etc)  H If you want the system disk to be mounts as a shadowset, you need to useF SYSGEN paramenet SHADOW_SYS_DISK and optionally SHADOW_SYS_UNIT  (thisO is done very early in the boot sequence before any of your code gets executed.)    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 22:33:17 GMT 0 From: John Santos <john.santos@post.harvard.edu>- Subject: Re: Where do DSA devices come from ? > Message-ID: <MPG.1e8f8f3cb9224f4198970c@news.bellatlantic.net>  7 In article <4425A4D8.B1773398@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>,  , djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net says...# > VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > > | > > In article <1143302790.196510.96330@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "Ralf Gaertner" <ralf.gaertner@t-systems.com> writes: > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >Larry Kilgallen schrieb:  > > > E > > >> On an Alpha system with the latest copy of VMS I have verifyed M > > >> that the VOLSHAD license is present and the SHADOWING system parameter % > > >> has a value of 2 after reboot.  > > >>O > > >> But I see no DSA device, and attempting a mount does not see one either.  > > > G > > >Did you set a nonzero ALLOCLASS parameter? Which MOUNT command did J > > >issue? What is the error message if you perform the comand manually ? > > L > > Zero ALLOCLASS, I have found, is one of the major flaws people encounter  > > setting up volume shadowing. > F > Since the dawn of port-ALLOCLASS, and the fact the DG(A) devices areI > always ALLOCLASS 1, I keep hoping that this will someday get fixed. The J > node itself does not need a non-zero ALLOCLASS, except that HBVS demands > it.   D Required for 2 reasons, and due to multi version cluster support, itE will probably never change.  1) the name of the disk has to fit in a  D resource name; allocation-style names are 2 characters shorter than G node-style names (maximum 5 vs. 7 character prefix.)  2) In a cluster,  D you usually need allocation classes anyway, to ensure unique device F names for any shareable disks.  So it really doesn't cost anything to E require it.  Even if the (undocumented, invisible to users) resource  G naming conventions of reason 1 get changed, they would need to add yet  G another compensating parameter or multi-version clusters would break.   ; So there would be no net decrease in management complexity.   > Is the ALLOCLASS check done when loading the shadow driver, orB is it done at mount time?  In other words, does it suffice to have; port allocation classes defined for all the shadowed disks?   A (Remember, it is the member disks that are shared or MSCP-served, # not the DSAxxx: shadow set itself.)    --   John   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 04:52:52 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - Subject: Re: Where do DSA devices come from ? ( Message-ID: <e056n4$si1$1@pcls4.std.com>  2 John Santos <john.santos@post.harvard.edu> writes:  G >> Since the dawn of port-ALLOCLASS, and the fact the DG(A) devices are J >> always ALLOCLASS 1, I keep hoping that this will someday get fixed. TheK >> node itself does not need a non-zero ALLOCLASS, except that HBVS demands  >> it.  E >Required for 2 reasons, and due to multi version cluster support, it F >will probably never change.  1) the name of the disk has to fit in a E >resource name; allocation-style names are 2 characters shorter than  5 >node-style names (maximum 5 vs. 7 character prefix.)   G The allocation class is internally stored as a binary longword, so this  isn't a reason.   I The reason why alloclass 0 isn't allowed is that alloclass 0 is 'special' F in that devices get named nodename$ddcu and not $0$ddcu.  You can haveG two different zero alloclass ddcu's with the same ddcu because of that, G because they become node1$ddcu and node2$ddcu.  But the binary longword  doesn't accomodate that.  ? >Is the ALLOCLASS check done when loading the shadow driver, or C >is it done at mount time?  In other words, does it suffice to have < >port allocation classes defined for all the shadowed disks?  A It's done at mount time.  Shadowing doesn't care about the node's > alloclass, just that each member disk has a nonzero alloclass.  B >(Remember, it is the member disks that are shared or MSCP-served,$ >not the DSAxxx: shadow set itself.)  3 Just a comment.  Many people don't understand that.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 17:49:14 -0500 3 From: "Peter Weaver" <newsonly@weaverconsulting.ca> , Subject: Re: Who's going to Montreal Seminar9 Message-ID: <VNjVf.8014$qX6.324233@news20.bellglobal.com>   ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:4424AEF2.49DF02A1@teksavvy.com... > Peter Weaver wrote:  >>C >> Just wondering who I might get to meet at the Montreal Encompass E >> seminar? JF? Syltrem? Anyone else from the area going to be there?  > F > I haven't ruled out going.  Just have to go to Canadian Tire to get  > a A > roll of duct tape to put over my mouth for that day if I go :-)  > D > (and probably a foam coated suit to soften the baseball bat blows)  2 At least it will be easy enough to recognize you!    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.169 ************************