1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 29 Mar 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 175       Contents:) Re: About Ottawa Pedophile Darrell Larose  Re: EFN$C_ENF Chalk or Cheese?& Re: exe$alononpage and exe$deanopgdsiz" exe$alononpage and exe$deanopgdsiz& Re: exe$alononpage and exe$deanopgdsiz Re: F$FAO (!%D) & Week Number  Re: F$FAO (!%D) & Week Number  Re: F$FAO (!%D) & Week Number  Re: F$FAO (!%D) & Week Number  Re: Intel to sell itanium? Re: Intel to sell itanium? Re: Intel to sell itanium? Re: Intel to sell itanium? Re: Intel to sell itanium? Re: Intel to sell itanium? Re: Make DS10 firmware CD  Re: Make DS10 firmware CD  MOP software for Win/NT/XP?  Re: MOP software for Win/NT/XP?  Re: MOP software for Win/NT/XP? . Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS. Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS Re: qman$master.dat 4 Re: SAP small business solutions now run on OpenVMS!4 Re: SAP small business solutions now run on OpenVMS! Re: soyMAIL final BETA Re: soyMAIL final BETAG Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer G Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer G Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer G Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer G Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer P Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer Develope VMS Admin Position Available  Re: VMS Admin Position Available  Re: VMS Admin Position Available  Re: VMS Admin Position Available  Re: VMS Admin Position Available  Re: VMS Admin Position Available  Re: VMS Admin Position Available  Re: VMS Admin Position Available  Re: VMS Admin Position Available$ Re: Where do DSA devices come from ? X-server errors  [Q] Make DS10 firmware CD   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 17:23:54 -0700 (MST) 5 From: Borked Pseudo Mailed <nobody@pseudo.borked.net> 2 Subject: Re: About Ottawa Pedophile Darrell Larose@ Message-ID: <4ec09964cdab2cff6737d78664d8f268@pseudo.borked.net>  ? Ottawa pedophile Darrell Larose, sockpuppeting as "Nomen Nescio H <geoff_one@hotmail.com>" wanked his little pedo dick and ejaculated this worthless drivel:    >  >Gregory Morrow wrote: >>6 >> This can't *all* possibly be true -- *can* it...??? >>F >Why not Greg, you're a moron that reposts and repeats like the little >parrot you are...  9 At least he doesn't fuck little boys like you, pedophile:    Darrell Larose 121 Northwestern Ave Ottawa, ON K1Y 0M1 (613) 725-0245# c o t a 3 4 8 @ r o g e r s . c o m 1 a d 6 0 7 @ F r e e N e t . C a r l e t o n . C A    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 07:29:13 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> ' Subject: Re: EFN$C_ENF Chalk or Cheese? 1 Message-ID: <e0cgr9$jca$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi Ian,   J I couldn't see anything obvious at first glance (But then I can never find my phone or thongs :-)  5 Am I in the right module: - SYSSYNCH/LIS 19-Nov-2004?    Cheers Richard Maher  A PS. Anyway, for better or worse, I am now a convert to efn$c_enf.   + "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> wrote in message = news:1143362752.893056.120870@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... F > If you think of EFN$C_ENF as a magic event flag local to each kernel > thread does that help? > F > $SYNCH is a bit more complicated that waiting for an event flag in aB > loop. Go read the sources (if you have access). There is special& > handing for event flags 128 and 129. >    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2006 18:30:49 -0500. From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks)/ Subject: Re: exe$alononpage and exe$deanopgdsiz , Message-ID: <sthfBiA5k1Za@cuebid.zko.hp.com>  5 "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> writes:   M > Please help with the following questions and supply any other useful advice 2 > you can when it comes to calling these services.  9 You really should get a copy of the source listings . . .   F Is this VAX-only, Alpha-only, I64-only, or for multiple architectures.  N If the VAX is not involved, I'd CALL the exe_std form of the routines, pushingI the params on the stack, thereby not needing to shuffle registers around.    --    L Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 07:11:19 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> + Subject: exe$alononpage and exe$deanopgdsiz 1 Message-ID: <e0cfpo$i2e$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi,   K Please help with the following questions and supply any other useful advice 0 you can when it comes to calling these services.  D * Manuals referenced:- VMS Source code + "OpenVMS VAX Device Support [Reference] Manual".  L 1) exe$deanonpgdsiz says it will get the length from R1 *only* if the memoryH was allocated from Variable Pool. Exe$alonnonpaged says it will allocateE from Variable Region *or* Lookaside List depending on the size of the J request. ("The" size it neglects to mention.) The Alononpaged_inline macroH went to some lengths to examine the size parameter and  then call eitherL exe$alononpage or exe$alonpagvar. The doc says the entry for exe$alnonpagvar@ no longer exists and just to jump to exe$alononpaged instead. IfJ exe$deanonpgdsiz desides that the size of the deallocation is such that itG will log for implicit inputs at irp$w_size and irp$b_type and I haven't I adhered to those packet formatting conventions then it won't be happy and D you don't want to see exe$deanonpgdsiz unhappy. None of the code andI examples I've seen explicitly cater for this. Do I have to worry or can I F force it some how to only ever look to R1 for the size of the block to? deallocate? Does the memory layout have to follow a convention?   I 2) A lot of the past code in COV wants to raise IPL to ipl$_astdel before C calling exe$alononpaged. I don't think this is necessary is it? The K subroutine itself executes at caller's IPL and raises IPL to ipl$_pool (and I the deallocation also aquires the SYNCH lock and raises it to ipl$_synch) L but the only restriction I've seen is that you can't be above ipl$_pool whenG jumping to these routines. Is that correct? Does working set have to be  locked in memory?   K 3) As these routines raise IPL, I assume that you have to be in Kernel mode ' and Exec won't cut it. Is that correct?   J 4) What protection is on the memory that you get back from non-paged pool?  I 5) You're not expected to do your own accounting with thwse are you? What ) quotas and sysgen parameters are in play?     Anything else?    Regards Richard Maher    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Mar 2006 12:20:30 -0500. From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks)/ Subject: Re: exe$alononpage and exe$deanopgdsiz , Message-ID: <zzFJSbnAoAgN@cuebid.zko.hp.com>  7 > "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> writes:  > M > Please help with the following questions and supply any other useful advice 2 > you can when it comes to calling these services.  I Depending on your exact need, you may be able to make use of the routines K exe_std$alop1proc/exe_std$alop1imag and exe_std$deap1/exe_std$deap1block if % you will always have process context.    --    L Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:55:31 -0800 ! From: Fred Bach <music@triumf.ca> & Subject: Re: F$FAO (!%D) & Week Number( Message-ID: <442994B3.3000001@triumf.ca>      OK.  B    Clearly, how one defines the start of the week determines whichA    years end in 52 and which end in 53.  And for those years that B    end in week 53, it can be pretty safe to say that Jan 01 of the(    following year falls in that week 53.  ?    Does somebody have a mod to the routine below which tells it %    which day of the week to start on?   
    Thanks.  )   .. fred bach ..  music at triumf dot ca    >  > $!----------- L > $! WEEK_NUMBER.COM - Week number of the input date (default: current date)I > $!   Input date must be a valid VMS comparison date, format: YYYY-MM-DD J > $!   According to Martin Vorlaender, ISO 8601 defines week 1 of the yearM > $!   as the first week that contains a Thursday, equivalently the week that F > $!   contains January 4.  The week begins on Monday, ends on Sunday.> > $!   See http://www.ft.uni-erlangen.de/~mskuhn/iso-time.html= > $! The calculation of the Julian day number is adapted from / > $!   the Calendar FAQ by Claus Tonderling at: 2 > $!   http://www.tondering.dk/claus/calendar.html% > $! Dale Dellutri - 2000-03-15, v2.0  > $!B > $! cvcdj - ConVert Comparison Date to modified Julian day number > $cvcdj: subroutine' > $ year = f$integer(f$extract(0,4,p1)) ( > $ month = f$integer(f$extract(5,2,p1))& > $ day = f$integer(f$extract(8,2,p1)) > $ a = (14-month)/12  > $ y = year+4800-a  > $ m = month + 12*a - 3E > $ mjdn == day + (153*m+2)/5 + y*365 + y/4 - y/100 + y/400 - 2432046  > $ exit > $ endsubroutine  > $! > $ if p1 .eqs. "?"  > $ then_ > $  write sys$output "WEEK_NUMBER.COM - Week number of the input date (default: current date)" \ > $  write sys$output "  Input date must be a valid VMS comparison date, format: YYYY-MM-DD"] > $  write sys$output "  Week number 1 is the week which contains Jan 4.  The week begins on" 4 > $  write sys$output "  Monday and ends on Sunday."> > $  write sys$output "  For example: @WEEK_NUMBER 2000-03-15"X > $  write sys$output "    Output is: 2000-03-15 is in week number 11 of the year 2000."	 > $  exit 	 > $ endif / > $ if p1 .eqs. "" then p1 = f$cvtime(,,"DATE")  > $ call cvcdj 'p1'  > $ wn2 = (mjdn + 2) / 7 > $ year = f$extract(0,4,p1) > $ call cvcdj 'year'-01-04  > $ wn1 = (mjdn + 2) / 7 > $ if wn2 .lt. wn1  > $ then' > $  year = f$string(f$integer(year)-1)  > $  call cvcdj 'year'-01-04 > $  wn1 = (mjdn + 2) / 7 	 > $ endif P > $ write sys$output p1," is in week number ",wn2-wn1+1," of the year ",year,"." > $ exit > $!-----------             Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:c > In article <1143477105.494924.51760@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>, "R Boyd" <bob@hax.com> writes:  > D >>When I use the ISO rule about the week containing the 1st Thursday >>being week 1, ? >>I get that 31-Dec-2009 and 1-Jan-2010 are in Week 53 of 2009.  >>6 >>For 31-Dec-2010 and 1-Jan-2011 I get week 52 of 2010 >>= >>1-Jan-2012 is on a Sunday, depending on how you define your G >>week(starting on Monday or Sunday), this is either in week 52 of 2011 I >>or week 1 of 2012.    The incredibly short command procedure calculates  >>it to be week 52 of 2011.  >  > " > And in my eyes, this is correct. > @ > Seeing the first day of the week as Sunday is the jewish view,6 > while Monday as the first day is the christian view.D > For the year 2011 you have to use the christian view, because with9 > the jewish view the year must be well above 5000 or so. F > btw: Doesn't ISO define which day is the first day of the week, too? >  > :-)  >    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2006 14:13:17 -0800 From: "R Boyd" <bob@hax.com>& Subject: Re: F$FAO (!%D) & Week NumberC Message-ID: <1143583997.546169.219400@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>   G Here's an updated copy of the short routine that does the job -- allows % selection of the type of week to use.   2 $!WEEK_NUM.COM - find the week of year for date P1, $! p2 - which kind of week to use [iso], usa" $!      iso weeks start on Monday,! $!      usa weeks start on Sunday  $ week_number == -1  $ year_number == -1  $ iso_week_start = "monday"  $ usa_week_start = "sunday"  $ if p2.nes.""% $ then $ week_start = 'p2'_week_start $ $ else $ week_start = iso_week_start $ endif  $ sunday_thu = 5 $ monday_thu = 4& $ sunday_day_list = "--SuMoTuWeThFrSa"& $ monday_day_list = "--MoTuWeThFrSaSu"$ $ d = f$cvtime(P1,"ABSOLUTE","DATE") $ w = G f$locate(f$extract(0,2,f$cvtime(d,,"WEEKDAY")),'week_start'_day_list)/2 7 $ a = f$fao("!AS!#AS!SL-",d,('week_start'_thu - w) .ge.  0,"+",('week_start'_thu - w)) # $ n = f$cvtime(a,"ABSOLUTE","DATE")  $ y = f$cvtime(n,,"YEAR") F $ x = ((((('f$cvtime(n,,"MONTH")'-1)*31)+'f$cvtime(n,,"DAY")')/7)*7)+7; $ if (f$cvtime("''n'-''x'-",,"WEEKDAY") .nes. "Thursday") - E         .or. (f$cvtime("''n'-''x'-",,"YEAR") .ges. y) then $exit %x2c  $ADJUST:+ $ if f$cvtime("''n'-''x'-",,"YEAR") .nes. y  $ then  x = x - 7  $       goto ADJUST  $ endif  $ week_number == (x / 7) + 1 $ year_number == 'y' $ exit) $!Last Modified:  28-MAR-2006 17:11:52.46    >  > " > Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:e > > In article <1143477105.494924.51760@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>, "R Boyd" <bob@hax.com> writes:  > > F > >>When I use the ISO rule about the week containing the 1st Thursday > >>being week 1, A > >>I get that 31-Dec-2009 and 1-Jan-2010 are in Week 53 of 2009.  > >>8 > >>For 31-Dec-2010 and 1-Jan-2011 I get week 52 of 2010 > >>? > >>1-Jan-2012 is on a Sunday, depending on how you define your I > >>week(starting on Monday or Sunday), this is either in week 52 of 2011 K > >>or week 1 of 2012.    The incredibly short command procedure calculates  > >>it to be week 52 of 2011.  > >  > > $ > > And in my eyes, this is correct. > > B > > Seeing the first day of the week as Sunday is the jewish view,8 > > while Monday as the first day is the christian view.F > > For the year 2011 you have to use the christian view, because with; > > the jewish view the year must be well above 5000 or so. H > > btw: Doesn't ISO define which day is the first day of the week, too? > >  > > :-)  > >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 15:59:40 -0800 ! From: Fred Bach <music@triumf.ca> & Subject: Re: F$FAO (!%D) & Week Number( Message-ID: <4429CDEC.6070605@triumf.ca>   Thanks.   F    I discovered the problem with DECW$CALENDAR.  This is a BUG.  I canH    reproduce it at will.  This ought to be reported to the proper peopleH    at HP.  The week numbers are NOT automatic because the user is forcedF    to override the Thursday rule.  DECW$CALENDAR week numbers are onlyG    guaranteed correct for the years that match the options given in the     Options/General box.   J    Select Options/general where you MUST select what weekday that the weekJ    starts on.  Since the user can input any date, that breaks the ThursdayI    rule right there.  There is an obvious conflict right there.  Once the I    user selects the weekday on which the week begins, the user SHOULD NOT J    need to select any further to specify which date in January that Week 1F    starts on because doing so *overrides* the Wednesday/Thursday rule.J    THE WEEK NUMBER IS ONLY GUARANTEED TO BE CORRECT FOR THE YEAR FOR WHICH    THE GENERAL OPTIONS ARE SET.   I    Thus, unlike what I was doing, we CANNOT expect DECW$WINDOWS to scroll I    through subsequent years and expect the week numbers to be correct for M    any year except that for which it is set.  If we cannot believe them, then K    this means that the week numbers should no longer be displayed for those G    weeks.  It is easy to see how DECW$CALENDAR could easily display the J    correct set of weeks for the current year, but an incorrect set of weekI    numbers for subsequent years.  It might be lucky for a number of years 9    but sooner or later, DECW$CALENDAR WILL MAKE AN ERROR.   L    For example, if I set my DECW$CALENDAR correctly for 2006 (week starts onF    Monday and Week 1 starts on a January 02), DECW$CALENDAR breaks forM    December/January 2009/10.   My DECW$CALENDAR is correct as to week numbers H    from today to 28 December 2009.  That week has the Thursday in it, soJ    December 2009 should own the week.  However my DECW$CALENDAR is showingM    December 28-31/2009 as Week 1 of 2010.  That's wrong by the Thursday rule.   L    Due to this error, DECW$CALENDAR has no business showing the week numbers=    4 years in advance, in this case.  HP should fix this bug.   *    .. fred bach ..  music at triumf dot ca      
 R Boyd wrote: I > Here's an updated copy of the short routine that does the job -- allows ' > selection of the type of week to use.   
    [ snip]   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Mar 2006 04:55:34 -0800+ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <comp.os.vms@hotmail.com> & Subject: Re: F$FAO (!%D) & Week NumberC Message-ID: <1143636934.107623.214250@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>   @ I am truly amazed how my post, caused by a faulty reading of the@ manual, spawned a discussion about a different topic and has nowD generated the isolation of a bug in a piece of distributed software.   Ceases never wander    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:37:11 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> # Subject: Re: Intel to sell itanium? , Message-ID: <4429D69C.764C0418@teksavvy.com>   FredK wrote:M > Pretty good response until this gem.  Gave me a really good chuckle.  SPARC L > and all its variants are the walking dead, and frankly were not even worthL > mentioning when talking about competing architectures in the future.  MIPS > has a brighter future.    < SPARC has a huge installed base. IA64 has no installed base.  C Because of its installed base, Sparc will outlive that IA64 thing.  F Until IA64 has a bigger market share in its installed base than SPARC,? you can't really really make any "my chip is better than yours"  arguments against Andrew.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:36:53 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com># Subject: Re: Intel to sell itanium? 0 Message-ID: <zLWdnYPXhuZfbrTZRVn-uw@bresnan.com>   JF Mezei wrote:    > FredK wrote: > M >>Pretty good response until this gem.  Gave me a really good chuckle.  SPARC L >>and all its variants are the walking dead, and frankly were not even worthL >>mentioning when talking about competing architectures in the future.  MIPS >>has a brighter future. >  >  > > > SPARC has a huge installed base. IA64 has no installed base. > E > Because of its installed base, Sparc will outlive that IA64 thing.  H > Until IA64 has a bigger market share in its installed base than SPARC,A > you can't really really make any "my chip is better than yours"  > arguments against Andrew.   I That seems to be pretty much on the mark.  Wonder how SGI is doing these  F days with that one offering with an IA64 in it? (and it uses Linux on 
 top of it)   --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 02:00:52 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net># Subject: Re: Intel to sell itanium? = Message-ID: <8dmdnRUE2bUxrbfZRVn-jw@metrocastcablevision.com>    FredK wrote:   ...       SPARCL > and all its variants are the walking dead, and frankly were not even worthF > mentioning when talking about competing architectures in the future.  D You really need to get out more, Fred.  Fujitsu's SPARC64 platforms H routinely beat (or in one case merely equaled) the best that Itanic had E to offer at all the system sizes tested for both in jbb2K and SAP SD  I 2-tier (Fujitsu doesn't seem to be into TPC-C these days, but there's no  I obvious reason to doubt that it could have done the same there).  Itanic  G can't even beat SPARC64 in SPECint, though it does manage to eke out a   win in SPECint_base.  H And now that jbb2K5 is out and Fujitsu fields its own Itanic platforms, I guess what?  In similar 32-processor configurations Fujitsu's PRIMEPOWER  I SPARC64 system beat out its PRIMEQUEST Itanic system by a non-negligible  I 12% margin (well, at least the hardware was similar:  perhaps you'd like  E to argue that running Solaris on the SPARC64 system gave it the edge  F over Linux on the Itanic, despite the fact that HP-UX doesn't seem to H enjoy any comparable margin over Linux when HP has chosen to match them  up on its own systems).   F Not to mention the fact that Fujitsu didn't bother to give its Itanic E offerings (which max out at 32 sockets) anything like the 128-socket  F headroom of its SPARC64 platforms.  Perhaps it guessed correctly that @ its customers wouldn't care:  Itanic contributes very little to  Fujitsu's bottom line.  B Now that Montecito doesn't seem to be offering all that much more C performance than Madison II did, this situation can be expected to  C continue (or worsen, from Itanic's viewpoint) as Fujitsu's SPARC64  I roadmap (which has proven quite credible in the past) marches ahead with  E dual cores, multi-threading, and further process shrinks on the near   horizon.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Mar 2006 02:36:34 -0800 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk# Subject: Re: Intel to sell itanium? C Message-ID: <1143628594.273935.130100@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>   C Bill may be right in Alpha not competing with the rest of the field = before, but isn't this one of the contributing factors to the G Alphacide?  If Alpha had competed for the mass market and if it had got A that mass market in the same way that the Intel 32 bit chips have . wouldn't Alpha have survived, if only in name?  A Survival of the fittest always includes the one that has the most D appeal in this industry.  IA64 was bet on becoming the one with most@ appeal.  Windows users were reluctant because licenses were moreD expensive on IA64 than on their 32 bit brothers.  Linux doesn't haveG the foothold against Windows to make a credible alternative yet to make  IA64 mass-market.   E Compaq committed Alphacide on the basis of IA64 becoming THE industry C standard.  Some of us (me included) questioned how an unproved chip B could be the thing that the business was bet on.  We got told thatD Compaq (and then HP) would make it work.  Maybe we're still waiting?   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Mar 2006 06:01:53 -0800- From: "Andrew" <andrew_harrison@symantec.com> # Subject: Re: Intel to sell itanium? C Message-ID: <1143640913.359349.151040@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    FredK wrote:: > "Andrew" <andrew_harrison@symantec.com> wrote in message> > news:1143559087.329258.13750@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com... > >  >  > > E > > I expect them both to lose to SPARC at the high end and SPARC and J > > AMD-64 at the low end unless both Intel and IBM are planning much moreK > > agressive multi-core/multi-threaded processors than they have announced  > > in their roadmaps. > >  > M > Pretty good response until this gem.  Gave me a really good chuckle.  SPARC L > and all its variants are the walking dead, and frankly were not even worthL > mentioning when talking about competing architectures in the future.  MIPS > has a brighter future.  F Depends what your definition of walking dead is. If your defnintion ofE walking dead is faster, cheaper, larger market share, more ISV's then  SPARC is walking dead.  G The fastest single threaded SPARC processor the Fujitsu SPARC64 sold by G both Sun and Fujitsu outperforms Itanium on a per core basis for almost A all the integer benchmarks from SPECint upwards with itanium only E having an advantage on FP. In terms of scale the largest SPARC server F supports 2x the number of cores as the largest IA64 server designed to address the commercial market.  @ For web, appserver, fileserver, firewall, ftp server and smallerG transaction  servers nothing touches the SPARC T1. The previous king of F that market dual core AMD Opteron based servers require a minimum of 2F dual core modules to compete with T1 rising to 4 dual core modules for some benchmarks.  E Fujitsu have a dual core SPARC64 processor coming out this year while B T2 which will deliver roughly 2x the throughput but with decent FPE performance and 1-4 way SMP support is due out 12 months after the T1 ! release which was late last year.   D Rock is due out in 2008 and indications are that it will be on time.A Sun actually underhyped T1, it performs rather better than people E initially expected and for a wider variety of workloads. Even if Rock G only meets expectations it will be the fastest module on the planet for D a much wider range of workloads than T1 and in a much wider range of configurations.   A SPARC has a much larger market share than Itanium and a much much ? larger installed base, it also has a much larger ISV portfolio.   = This coupled with Sun's luck or good judgement in hitting the B muti-threaded low power consumption buttons well before any of itsG competitors should ensure SPARC's survival and could easily lead to the  demise of Itanium.   regards  Andrew   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:55:37 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net># Subject: Re: Intel to sell itanium? G Message-ID: <gs6dnSAWFPuEV7fZnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: E > Bill may be right in Alpha not competing with the rest of the field 	 > before,   F Since the post to which you're replying said nothing about Alpha, I'm % not sure you meant this reply for me.   7   but isn't this one of the contributing factors to the  > Alphacide?  F No.  The cause of the Alphacide was Compaq's desire to get out of the I processor development biz, pure and simple.  Pfeiffer briefly made Alpha  G a centerpiece of Compaq's product line during the 9 - 10 months he was  G at the helm after Compaq bought DEC, but as soon as Curly took over in  0 April, 1999, Alpha was returned to the doghouse.  I Had Alpha continued to be marketed as Pfeiffer started doing, positioned  E squarely *against* the still-vaporous Itanic (and soon-to-be utterly  G pathetic Merced) and given credible development resources to match the  H sorry lies of the 'commitment to Alpha' letter, it would have succeeded C more than adequately in the RISC market (since even while being so  E grossly neglected it was *already* succeeding, in terms of being the  F foundation for Compaq's largest source of product profits).  In other C words, indeed Alpha was not competing, but it was not competing by  < choice rather than because of any innate inability to do so.  , >  If Alpha had competed for the mass market  G Alpha did, briefly, compete for the mass market, first in the infamous  F DEC 'Affinity' program and then in its API products.  Of course, such I efforts were somewhat disrupted by the uncertainties associated with the  G Compaq takeover and then died quickly after Curly axed Windows support  3 on Alpha soon after taking the reins from Pfeiffer.      and if it had got C > that mass market in the same way that the Intel 32 bit chips have   G What possible reason would anyone have to think that was even remotely  A possible?  To the degree that Alpha could run IA32 binaries (and  I received at least some support for running Windows software natively) it  F might have taken over some significant portion of the higher-end IA32 F market (which is more than any other architecture seemed to have much I chance of doing), but that's about it.  Alpha was never an 'IA32 killer'  C by any stretch of the imagination:  it just had the opportunity to  H capitalize on some of IA32's success by providing a high-end compatible G alternative (I'm not sure that even Intel could have embraced Alpha to  C the extent that it could have displaced IA32, given the continuing  ! competition from AMD and others).    - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2006 12:05:02 -0800; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> " Subject: Re: Make DS10 firmware CDC Message-ID: <1143576302.699983.318280@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>     stuie_norris@yahoo.com.au wrote: > Hi Group,  > H > Just got a cheap (well in Australia) Unix DS10 I am going to use as myE > new hobbyist OVMS machine.  The DS10 has really old firmware on it. - > When I tried to install OVMS it complained.  > D > The only firmware CD I have is for my older alpha - PC164 and thisE > firmware is older than the one on the DS10 and I have no idea where  > that CD is now days. > H > Is it possible from the Digital FTP site to download the files for 7.1H > firware and burning them to a CD with a PC program (Nero) and boot the- > DS10 from this CD and upgrade the firmware?  > H > Are there any instructions for this avaiable on the web or on HP /CPQ/ > DEC web sites? > + > Thanks - some eager to try their new toy.  > 	 > Stuarat   ( Yep.  Everything you need is right here:. http://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/  B You and download the .iso file and create CD from it just like you> asked (in fact I did the same several months ago to 2 DS10L's)   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2006 11:31:17 -0800 From: elementyl@hotmail.com " Subject: Re: Make DS10 firmware CDC Message-ID: <1143574276.967692.130570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Try   I http://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/readmes/ds10.html#method_11    James    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:14:32 -0600 + From: brandon@dalsemi.com (BRANDON, JOHN M) $ Subject: MOP software for Win/NT/XP?1 Message-ID: <06032911143292@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   - I have the need for a Windows version of MOP.    Anything out there?      John "REBOOT" Brandon  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:55:19 -0500 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> ( Subject: Re: MOP software for Win/NT/XP?I Message-ID: <8660a3a10603290955m151dfbbbvc71f1ee220de7968@mail.gmail.com>   8 On 3/29/06, BRANDON, JOHN M <brandon@dalsemi.com> wrote:/ > I have the need for a Windows version of MOP.  >  > Anything out there?  >  >  > John "REBOOT" Brandon  > VMS Systems Administrator , > firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com >   . You sure bootp wouldn't do for your situation?   WWWebb   --C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:29:02 -0500 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> ( Subject: Re: MOP software for Win/NT/XP?H Message-ID: <8660a3a10603291029g681e9a9pcaf40ab4c208b19f@mail.gmail.com>  B Well, I can tell you from experience with several thousand of themE that 700s will take a load from a bootp server-- even if it is a UNIX  box :-) :-) :-)   B It's been so long since I've played with anything in the 90 familyE (first half of the 90s) that I can't be of much assistance with them.   A Extrapolating from what I recall on the 700s, however, going from C WWENG1.SYS to WWENG2.SYS required that the DECservers have a larger D amount of memory in them (4 MB minimum if memory, hehehe,  serves me3 right).  That might be the case on the 90s as well.    WWWebb  : On 3/29/06, John Brandon <John.Brandon@dalsemi.com> wrote: > I have > DECserver 700-08 > DECserver 700-16 > DECserver 90TL > DS90TM > H > The software is MNENG1 - I have attempted to use MNENG2 and 3 and have" > gotten failed loads on the 90TL. > L > I suspect I can resolve the 700's and 90TM however the 90TL's look to be = a 
 > problem. >  > -----Original Message-----6 > From: William Webb [mailto:william.w.webb@gmail.com]* > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:55 AM > To: BRANDON, JOHN M  > Cc: Info-VAX@mvb.saic.com * > Subject: Re: MOP software for Win/NT/XP? >  > : > On 3/29/06, BRANDON, JOHN M <brandon@dalsemi.com> wrote:1 > > I have the need for a Windows version of MOP.  > >  > > Anything out there?  > >  > >  > > John "REBOOT" Brandon  > > VMS Systems Administrator . > > firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com > >  > 0 > You sure bootp wouldn't do for your situation? >  > WWWebb >  > --E > NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  > correspondence. E > All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for : > services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at% > http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/  >      --C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 10:26:11 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <BaydnaYrL-8v77TZRVn-jQ@bresnan.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:; > In article <nKCdna-J9dMGGLXZnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@libcom.com>, , > 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>3 >>>In article <FbmdncBUidFPtbXZ4p2dnA@bresnan.com>, ( >>>	GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes: >>>  >>> M >>>>All you have to do is look at your latest Apple PC.  Underneath the hood  G >>>>is unix.  Some say it isn't so, but it is true after much thorough  J >>>>digging.  So why not do the same with OpenVMS?  After all, the o/s is M >>>>quite compact as it is and would only require putting eye candy GUI over  L >>>>it.  Make software installing simple.  If Apple can do it to Unix, then  >>>>why not on OpenVMS?  >>>  >>> F >>>Well, let's start at the beginning.  What did the underlying OS forN >>>Mac OSX cost?  Andswer $0.00.  What does VMS cost?  Any reason to continue? >>>  >>>bill  >>>  >> >>No, that is not valid. >>G >>If it's HP producing the appliance, they own VMS and can embed it in  2 >>anything they choose.  For any cost they choose. >> >  > J > Well, of course that is true.  But then, using the same logic they couldJ > have always sold VMS cheap on small machines for small businesses.  But.H > did they?  If I want a single license to use VMS on the smallest Alpha2 > available today, what will HP charge me for it?  > G > Sorry, while it is a nice idea that there might be a small system VMS F > we have already been thru this dozens of times.  It just isn't goingH > to happen.  At this stage of the game we will be lucky if VMS survivesK > in the niche it currently occupies.  It isn't moving into any new niches.  >   F Why not?  All I see is the old white ivory tower thinking from the IT I depts.  That's why M$ windows is successful in the first place.  At this  I point in time, HP can easily make OpenVMS saleable, almost for free.  It  I is their decision to make.  Holding VMS close to their chest is a losing  E situation at this time.  The longer vms stays where it is at and not  F marketed the more money they are going to lose in the long run and no D one will care for it in another 10 years.  Bear in mind that VMS is I nothing more than intellectual property abstracted as magnetic bits.  HP  = can sell it for whatever the market is willing to pay for it.      --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 10:35:01 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS : Message-ID: <d5GdnZ0NSvhe6bTZnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@bresnan.com>   davidc@montagar.com wrote:  D > Given the existence of VMS Engineering as a collection of salaried> > staff and harwdare investment to provide development/testing4 > environments - exactly how is this a "$0.00" cost? >   I VMS has already been developed.  So was the NextStep where Apple got the  F development tools.  Both have R&D.  Do you think Apple just twanged a A magic wand and VOILA... a new o/s for a 970FX processor for free?   F The risk HP faces is the wrath of Gates.  They won't shoot a cash cow H called XP.  If they did market a VMS PC, then marketing would be needed I to market the PC to compete against XP.  The easiest thing for marketing  G then would be to advertise, which would be shooting that cash cow, and  E push the security angle by saying, "would you want to get a virus or  D malware on your PC?  Why not use the new OpenVMS which will not get H these!"  Plus games, etc, etc.  A big business gamble... and HP doesn't  have the kahoonies to do it.     --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 01:09:14 +0100 ( From: Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS / Message-ID: <e0cfmj$pd7$01$1@news.t-online.com>    GreyCloud schrieb: > I > Right now I don't see any small inexpensive desktop VMS units for sale. D > My idea of low cost is under $2k.  Bulk sales will recoup any R&D.D > The fact that DEC did produce a small desktop VMS computer before E > managment went south was a good indicator of where DEC was heading.  >     + just to throw in some memories of the past: 5 About 10 years ago, in the mid-90s, DEC tried to sell < sort of an Alpha-PC. Over here in Germany even retail stores6 had them in stock for some time. IIRC they came at the> price of a high-end PC at that time. They ran WindozeNT/alpha. In the end, they flopped, D although these boxes were the closest approach to the consumer levelB one can imagine: half-decent prices, visibility in consumer shops, M$-OS, M$-apps.   2 What makes you think this time it would work out ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:59:31 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS 6 Message-ID: <4429EA03.21708ECE@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   GreyCloud wrote: >  > davidc@montagar.com wrote: > F > > Given the existence of VMS Engineering as a collection of salaried@ > > staff and harwdare investment to provide development/testing6 > > environments - exactly how is this a "$0.00" cost? > >  > J > VMS has already been developed.  So was the NextStep where Apple got theG > development tools.  Both have R&D.  Do you think Apple just twanged a C > magic wand and VOILA... a new o/s for a 970FX processor for free?  > G > The risk HP faces is the wrath of Gates.  They won't shoot a cash cow I > called XP.  If they did market a VMS PC, then marketing would be needed J > to market the PC to compete against XP.  The easiest thing for marketingD > then would be to advertise, which would be shooting that cash cow,  H O.k. Something I don't get here: unless M$ grants HP a tremendous amountF of room for markup, how does WhineBloze XP constitute a "cash cow" forB them? I thought the PC side of the biz was barely making a profit.   > and F > push the security angle by saying, "would you want to get a virus orE > malware on your PC?  Why not use the new OpenVMS which will not get I > these!"  Plus games, etc, etc.  A big business gamble... and HP doesn't  > have the kahoonies to do it.   Gotta second that!   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:13:25 -0500 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> 7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <rqWdnQeNvo7bcLTZ4p2dnA@comcast.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote: > davidc@montagar.com wrote: > D >>Given the existence of VMS Engineering as a collection of salaried> >>staff and harwdare investment to provide development/testing4 >>environments - exactly how is this a "$0.00" cost? >  > @ > I took it to mean that HP already owns the assets - no cost of( > acquisition. I could have misread him. >   * Cost of acquisition is not the only cost!!  - The engineers get salary and benefits.  Cost! * The real estate represents capital.  Cost!* The equipment represents capital.    Cost!* The equipment requires maintenance.  Cost! Property taxes.			     Cost!I Support staff: receptionist, secretaries, janitors, security. . . . Cost! 0 Heating, cooling, lights, telephones. . .  Cost!  E I'd guess that VMS Engineering eats thirty to forty million per year!    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:28:18 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS : Message-ID: <2u2dnfQI4I9dbLTZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bresnan.com>   Michael Kraemer wrote: > GreyCloud schrieb: >  >>J >> Right now I don't see any small inexpensive desktop VMS units for sale.E >> My idea of low cost is under $2k.  Bulk sales will recoup any R&D. E >> The fact that DEC did produce a small desktop VMS computer before  F >> managment went south was a good indicator of where DEC was heading. >>   >  > - > just to throw in some memories of the past: 7 > About 10 years ago, in the mid-90s, DEC tried to sell > > sort of an Alpha-PC. Over here in Germany even retail stores8 > had them in stock for some time. IIRC they came at the@ > price of a high-end PC at that time. They ran WindozeNT/alpha. > In the end, they flopped, F > although these boxes were the closest approach to the consumer levelD > one can imagine: half-decent prices, visibility in consumer shops, > M$-OS, M$-apps.  > 4 > What makes you think this time it would work out ? >   3 People trying to get away from viruses and malware. H I dumped two windows boxes for a pair of iMacs.  So far for two years I  haven't had any problems. D And a lot of small shops are now seeing people wondering what to do F about the virus problems.  This particular shop is now moving some to D Linux.  Not the best solution in the world, but better than windows.I Security is beginning to be a big issue... back in the mid 90s it wasn't.      --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:49:35 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS 6 Message-ID: <4429F5BF.7432EC3D@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   GreyCloud wrote: >  > David J. Dachtera wrote: >  > > GreyCloud wrote: > >  > >>davidc@montagar.com wrote: > >> > >>G > >>>Given the existence of VMS Engineering as a collection of salaried A > >>>staff and harwdare investment to provide development/testing 7 > >>>environments - exactly how is this a "$0.00" cost?  > >>>  > >>L > >>VMS has already been developed.  So was the NextStep where Apple got theI > >>development tools.  Both have R&D.  Do you think Apple just twanged a E > >>magic wand and VOILA... a new o/s for a 970FX processor for free?  > >>I > >>The risk HP faces is the wrath of Gates.  They won't shoot a cash cow K > >>called XP.  If they did market a VMS PC, then marketing would be needed L > >>to market the PC to compete against XP.  The easiest thing for marketingF > >>then would be to advertise, which would be shooting that cash cow, > >  > > L > > O.k. Something I don't get here: unless M$ grants HP a tremendous amountJ > > of room for markup, how does WhineBloze XP constitute a "cash cow" forF > > them? I thought the PC side of the biz was barely making a profit. > >  > D > In this instance, HP makes a lot of billy boxes with XP installed.G > They also have presence in a lot of stores.  Public perceptions would C > have to change in order to make the shift to something other than  > windows.     Gotta ask a question here:  F When this comes up in discussion, almost invariably it is presented asE "VMS supplants Windows". How 'bout "VMS co-exists with Windows", just @ like Mac co-exists with Windows (disregarding for the moment the. on-going lack of OpenVMS-IA32 and/or -x86/64)?  2 > That would have to be the job of marketing dept.  ) ...but not necessarily HP's, exclusively.   6 > They do make money by volume sales off of their PCs. > J > Another thing that HP can do to market an alternative to windows is thatF > they can use a terminal program, like Apple does, for the power userJ > that wants to use DCL.  Instead of tape backups thru the BACKUP command,C > a few alterations to it would be needed to backup to DVD instead.   F Wonder what that would take. We can already write savesets to the null device.   F > Plus throw in a good "Getting Started with OpenVMS" book would be of > immense value. > I > Everyone here knows that OpenVMS is top notch, but the public does not. > > Again, that is supposed to be the job of the marketing dept.  0 ...but, for many reasons, that task falls to us.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:33:52 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <zLWdnYHXhuaQbrTZRVn-uw@bresnan.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote:   > GreyCloud wrote: >  >>davidc@montagar.com wrote: >> >>E >>>Given the existence of VMS Engineering as a collection of salaried ? >>>staff and harwdare investment to provide development/testing 5 >>>environments - exactly how is this a "$0.00" cost?  >>>  >>J >>VMS has already been developed.  So was the NextStep where Apple got theG >>development tools.  Both have R&D.  Do you think Apple just twanged a C >>magic wand and VOILA... a new o/s for a 970FX processor for free?  >>G >>The risk HP faces is the wrath of Gates.  They won't shoot a cash cow I >>called XP.  If they did market a VMS PC, then marketing would be needed J >>to market the PC to compete against XP.  The easiest thing for marketingD >>then would be to advertise, which would be shooting that cash cow, >  > J > O.k. Something I don't get here: unless M$ grants HP a tremendous amountH > of room for markup, how does WhineBloze XP constitute a "cash cow" forD > them? I thought the PC side of the biz was barely making a profit. >   B In this instance, HP makes a lot of billy boxes with XP installed.F They also have presence in a lot of stores.  Public perceptions would B have to change in order to make the shift to something other than : windows.  That would have to be the job of marketing dept.4 They do make money by volume sales off of their PCs.  I Another thing that HP can do to market an alternative to windows is that  E they can use a terminal program, like Apple does, for the power user  I that wants to use DCL.  Instead of tape backups thru the BACKUP command,  A a few alterations to it would be needed to backup to DVD instead. E Plus throw in a good "Getting Started with OpenVMS" book would be of   immense value.  G Everyone here knows that OpenVMS is top notch, but the public does not. < Again, that is supposed to be the job of the marketing dept.   >  >>and F >>push the security angle by saying, "would you want to get a virus orE >>malware on your PC?  Why not use the new OpenVMS which will not get I >>these!"  Plus games, etc, etc.  A big business gamble... and HP doesn't  >>have the kahoonies to do it. >  >  > Gotta second that! >      --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:55:57 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS 6 Message-ID: <4429F73D.A1A33648@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote:  >  > David J. Dachtera wrote: > > davidc@montagar.com wrote: > > F > >>Given the existence of VMS Engineering as a collection of salaried@ > >>staff and harwdare investment to provide development/testing6 > >>environments - exactly how is this a "$0.00" cost? > >  > > B > > I took it to mean that HP already owns the assets - no cost of* > > acquisition. I could have misread him. > >  > , > Cost of acquisition is not the only cost!! [snip]  < Understood; however, I was reading his intent, nothing more.  G > I'd guess that VMS Engineering eats thirty to forty million per year!   0 How much did the IA64 port increase those costs?  F Better yet, how much did the damage done by the Alphacide eat into the$ revenue stream that pays for it all?  C $40 million is probably rather a low estimate, given their staffing G levels, staff longevity and estimating the costs of salaries, benefits,  operations and facilities.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:52:18 +0100 ( From: Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS / Message-ID: <e0daqq$ol2$03$1@news.t-online.com>    GreyCloud schrieb: > 5 > People trying to get away from viruses and malware.   4 the average guy will think that Linux is the answer.4 At least it can run on the same hardware as Windoze.  J > I dumped two windows boxes for a pair of iMacs.  So far for two years I  > haven't had any problems.   - here you have answered the question yourself: D If an iMac can do it already, why resort to an obscure platform like' VMS on, hmm, alpha ? itanic ? or what ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 02:41:10 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS 9 Message-ID: <FZednTr5W5AcpLfZnZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@libcom.com>    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:  > David J. Dachtera wrote: >  >> davidc@montagar.com wrote:  >>F >>> Given the existence of VMS Engineering as a collection of salaried@ >>> staff and harwdare investment to provide development/testing6 >>> environments - exactly how is this a "$0.00" cost? >> >> >>A >> I took it to mean that HP already owns the assets - no cost of ) >> acquisition. I could have misread him.  >> > , > Cost of acquisition is not the only cost!! > / > The engineers get salary and benefits.  Cost! , > The real estate represents capital.  Cost!, > The equipment represents capital.    Cost!, > The equipment requires maintenance.  Cost!' > Property taxes.                 Cost! K > Support staff: receptionist, secretaries, janitors, security. . . . Cost! 2 > Heating, cooling, lights, telephones. . .  Cost! > G > I'd guess that VMS Engineering eats thirty to forty million per year!   G At one time that guess would be way too small.  Don't know about today.   F All of which will (hopefully) happen regardless of whether HP were to G offer an 'appliance' with VMS embedded in the applicane.  So, to issue  F more copies of VMS in such an appliance will have rather small costs,  and no cost of acquisition.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:09:57 +0200 + From: Marc Schlensog <fishtank.spam@web.de> 7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS : Message-ID: <20060329100957.57d73edd.fishtank.spam@web.de>  " On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 01:09:14 +0100) Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote:    > GreyCloud schrieb: > > E > > Right now I don't see any small inexpensive desktop VMS units for G > > sale. My idea of low cost is under $2k.  Bulk sales will recoup any C > > R&D. The fact that DEC did produce a small desktop VMS computer E > > before managment went south was a good indicator of where DEC was 
 > > heading.   > - > just to throw in some memories of the past: 7 > About 10 years ago, in the mid-90s, DEC tried to sell > > sort of an Alpha-PC. Over here in Germany even retail stores8 > had them in stock for some time. IIRC they came at the@ > price of a high-end PC at that time. They ran WindozeNT/alpha. > In the end, they flopped, F > although these boxes were the closest approach to the consumer levelD > one can imagine: half-decent prices, visibility in consumer shops, > M$-OS, M$-apps.   @ The first alpha-system Vobis was offering (a Jensen back in 92),B carried a pricetag of $5k, the second one (164SX, IIRC) a pricetagG of $3.5k and up. Not very half-decent, if you ask me. Also, the OS they D shipped with those boxes wasn't very well adapted to the machine andD there were hardly any native applications available. This might haveG been different with VMS or DUNIX/Tru64 (Linux is quite a dog on Alphas, E if you ask me) without any sophisticated features like clustering and E large systems support. I am rather sure, that this would have brought 2 the userbase up as well as the choice of software., But I think I'm just fantasizing too much...   > 4 > What makes you think this time it would work out ?   B Marketing works. That's why DEC went south. It works for Apple, itB didn't work for Vobis then. The reasons (at least what I think the reasons were) I stated above.    Marc   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:56:53 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS 6 Message-ID: <4429E965.1AB5B9FD@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   davidc@montagar.com wrote: > D > Given the existence of VMS Engineering as a collection of salaried> > staff and harwdare investment to provide development/testing4 > environments - exactly how is this a "$0.00" cost?  > I took it to mean that HP already owns the assets - no cost of& acquisition. I could have misread him.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 03:09:50 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS , Message-ID: <442A4098.C69625EB@teksavvy.com>   re: salaries of VMS engineers   D It appears that they now have barely enough resources to just handleB "business cases" from existing customers, and no spare engineeringC capacity for vision, growth.  Giving VSM for free to small business H would not reduce revenus nor cost more to engineers. But Engineers wouldO still not be able to justify doing any work to help grow small business market.   D However, once they retask that $10 billion being wasted on marketingE IA64, they can pay for VMS being ported to the 8086 and then start to E really grow the installed base. And when you grow the installed base, G you grow the engineering budgets and VMS would again be able to  bid on , RFPs where they currently don't even bother.  C It takes vision and determination to give VMS a chance. The current G mentality of only doing engineering work if a customers shows engineers E the money will never give VMS a chance to really grow out of its ever  more compact niche.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:35:17 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <zLWdnYDXhub_brTZRVn-uw@bresnan.com>   Richard B. Gilbert wrote:    > David J. Dachtera wrote: >  >> davidc@montagar.com wrote:  >>F >>> Given the existence of VMS Engineering as a collection of salaried@ >>> staff and harwdare investment to provide development/testing6 >>> environments - exactly how is this a "$0.00" cost? >> >> >>A >> I took it to mean that HP already owns the assets - no cost of ) >> acquisition. I could have misread him.  >> > , > Cost of acquisition is not the only cost!! > / > The engineers get salary and benefits.  Cost! , > The real estate represents capital.  Cost!, > The equipment represents capital.    Cost!, > The equipment requires maintenance.  Cost!' > Property taxes.                 Cost! K > Support staff: receptionist, secretaries, janitors, security. . . . Cost! 2 > Heating, cooling, lights, telephones. . .  Cost! > G > I'd guess that VMS Engineering eats thirty to forty million per year!   H Same for Apple.  They too employ software engineers as well as hardware = engineers.  And they don't pay them with green cheese either. 5 Yet they are doing a pretty good business these days.      --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:30:57 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS > Message-ID: <RduWf.288016$YJ4.59242@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   Michael Kraemer wrote:  - > just to throw in some memories of the past: 7 > About 10 years ago, in the mid-90s, DEC tried to sell > > sort of an Alpha-PC. Over here in Germany even retail stores8 > had them in stock for some time. IIRC they came at the@ > price of a high-end PC at that time. They ran WindozeNT/alpha. > In the end, they flopped,   H The Multia. I inquired about buying 40 (university environment) of them H to run VMS when we first heard of them. Shortly after we were told that I the machines would not support VMS, as we were first led to believe, and   we bought zero.   I Years later VMS "midnight engineering" came up with the patches to allow  G VMS to run on these machines and many used them as hobby machines. Not  H so much now thanks to the availability of much more powerful used Alpha  systems.  I Yes the Multia had its flaws but it was 75% of the way there. Instead of  ? fixing the problems and supporting VMS, DEC just gave up on it.    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Mar 2006 07:34:40 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS 3 Message-ID: <uz1Dr8XcDarV@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <1143561538.707074.223560@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, davidc@montagar.com writes: D > Given the existence of VMS Engineering as a collection of salaried> > staff and harwdare investment to provide development/testing4 > environments - exactly how is this a "$0.00" cost? >   F    If the cost of the underlying UNIX OS to Apple for OS X was 0, thenD    the cost to HP for the underlying VMS OS for a new product is the    same.  C    Both of them being pre-existing OS already running on targetable     hardware.  ;    In neither case is the cost of porting the GUI, platform ?    porting, or any required mods to the underlying OS included.    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Mar 2006 05:42:23 -0800+ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <comp.os.vms@hotmail.com> 7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS C Message-ID: <1143639742.891991.271380@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>   F History has shown that attempting to market/sell *anything* against an@ M$ product is incompatible with a business relationship with M$.  F There is nothing in M$ business practices since the monpoly conviction/ that suggests that it is any more viable today.   C It's not about size of the goulies, but the desire to retain them !   	 Dr. Dweeb    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:56:09 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <-OGdndbUG8qlVrfZRVn-rA@bresnan.com>   Michael Kraemer wrote: > GreyCloud schrieb: >  >>6 >> People trying to get away from viruses and malware. >  > 6 > the average guy will think that Linux is the answer.6 > At least it can run on the same hardware as Windoze. > I >> I dumped two windows boxes for a pair of iMacs.  So far for two years   >> I haven't had any problems. >  > / > here you have answered the question yourself: F > If an iMac can do it already, why resort to an obscure platform like) > VMS on, hmm, alpha ? itanic ? or what ?  >   , Simple.  OS X isn't as secure as OpenVMS is.G After all the bragging about how secure OpenVMS is, it would be a good  G marketing ploy to use.  Seems that all I see so far are excuses NOT to    do it.  It's HPs loss, not mine.     --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:13:04 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS : Message-ID: <euSdnbAhE4GyUrfZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bresnan.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote:   > GreyCloud wrote: >  >>David J. Dachtera wrote: >> >> >>>GreyCloud wrote:  >>>  >>>  >>>>davidc@montagar.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>G >>>>>Given the existence of VMS Engineering as a collection of salaried A >>>>>staff and harwdare investment to provide development/testing 7 >>>>>environments - exactly how is this a "$0.00" cost?  >>>>>  >>>>L >>>>VMS has already been developed.  So was the NextStep where Apple got theI >>>>development tools.  Both have R&D.  Do you think Apple just twanged a E >>>>magic wand and VOILA... a new o/s for a 970FX processor for free?  >>>>I >>>>The risk HP faces is the wrath of Gates.  They won't shoot a cash cow K >>>>called XP.  If they did market a VMS PC, then marketing would be needed L >>>>to market the PC to compete against XP.  The easiest thing for marketingF >>>>then would be to advertise, which would be shooting that cash cow, >>>  >>> K >>>O.k. Something I don't get here: unless M$ grants HP a tremendous amount I >>>of room for markup, how does WhineBloze XP constitute a "cash cow" for E >>>them? I thought the PC side of the biz was barely making a profit.  >>>  >>D >>In this instance, HP makes a lot of billy boxes with XP installed.G >>They also have presence in a lot of stores.  Public perceptions would C >>have to change in order to make the shift to something other than  >>windows.   >  >  > Gotta ask a question here: > H > When this comes up in discussion, almost invariably it is presented asG > "VMS supplants Windows". How 'bout "VMS co-exists with Windows", just B > like Mac co-exists with Windows (disregarding for the moment the0 > on-going lack of OpenVMS-IA32 and/or -x86/64)? >   G That is a good point.  Yes, VMS can co-exist with windows, but knowing  E Gates penchant to be top dog, I doubt that his marketing dept. would   allow that.   C Already Apple is being sniped at by M$ and also seen in many Apple  H newsgroups.  The same thing will happen *if* there were such a thing as E a VMS PC.  One thing that VMS could easily and strongly use is their  H security track record.  Of course you'd have to rub M$ face in security G issues from a marketing standpoint to win.  But if Vista does turn out  F to be secure as they say, which I highly doubt, then OpenVMS PC would D not make it.  To me, Vista is just lipstick on an old pig and I can F safely say that the virus problems won't go away.  Why?  Because they  didn't do an o/s rewrite.    > 2 >>That would have to be the job of marketing dept. >  > + > ...but not necessarily HP's, exclusively.   L I don't know if HP has its own marketing dept. or if they contract that out.   >  > 6 >>They do make money by volume sales off of their PCs. >>J >>Another thing that HP can do to market an alternative to windows is thatF >>they can use a terminal program, like Apple does, for the power userJ >>that wants to use DCL.  Instead of tape backups thru the BACKUP command,C >>a few alterations to it would be needed to backup to DVD instead.  >  > H > Wonder what that would take. We can already write savesets to the null
 > device.   H Sun already figured it out on their newer x86 boxes.  It shouldn't take ' rocket science to get one going on VMS. E This is the one area that Apple hasn't really addressed properly yet. D I'd much prefer a rolling saveset policy than just trying to make a H whole set of DVDs on a whole hard drive backup.  Even if they supported E the blu-ray or HD DVD format, it'd still take quite a few on the new   larger hard drives.    >  > F >>Plus throw in a good "Getting Started with OpenVMS" book would be of >>immense value. >>I >>Everyone here knows that OpenVMS is top notch, but the public does not. > >>Again, that is supposed to be the job of the marketing dept. >  > 2 > ...but, for many reasons, that task falls to us. >   I I know.  That's why I'm trying to throw in some ideas for others to mull  G over.  At least being retired I can spend some time thinking about how  F it can be done.  From what I've read in here so far about the itanium H problems or delays, it may be in HPs best interest to start porting VMS I to the new 64-bit x86 type processors.  As long as companies like HP and  B AMD keep upping the ante on performance, windows gets the benefit E without spending a dime.  Eventually, VMS is going to be left behind. H Then what is HP going to do?  It seems they don't see the future vector F of where they've been and where things are heading.  Remember the old F days of IBM and the seven dwarfs?  Almost all of the seven dwarfs are  gone leaving IBM and M$.       --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:15:27 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS : Message-ID: <euSdnbMhE4EjUrfZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bresnan.com>   Dr. Dweeb wrote:  H > History has shown that attempting to market/sell *anything* against anB > M$ product is incompatible with a business relationship with M$. > H > There is nothing in M$ business practices since the monpoly conviction1 > that suggests that it is any more viable today.  > E > It's not about size of the goulies, but the desire to retain them !  >   E That is the biggest obstacle today in competition with M$.  The only  H leverage is the reputation of OpenVMS security and the insecurity of M$ G windows.  Constant repitition of pointing this out to the public could  I sway the pendulum.  And that will take a hefty marketing campaign budget.    --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:18:39 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS : Message-ID: <euSdnbIhE4HjTbfZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bresnan.com>   JF Mezei wrote:    > re: salaries of VMS engineers  > F > It appears that they now have barely enough resources to just handleD > "business cases" from existing customers, and no spare engineeringE > capacity for vision, growth.  Giving VSM for free to small business J > would not reduce revenus nor cost more to engineers. But Engineers wouldQ > still not be able to justify doing any work to help grow small business market.  > F > However, once they retask that $10 billion being wasted on marketingG > IA64, they can pay for VMS being ported to the 8086 and then start to G > really grow the installed base. And when you grow the installed base, I > you grow the engineering budgets and VMS would again be able to  bid on . > RFPs where they currently don't even bother. > E > It takes vision and determination to give VMS a chance. The current I > mentality of only doing engineering work if a customers shows engineers G > the money will never give VMS a chance to really grow out of its ever  > more compact niche.   I Precisely!  VMS needs a strong leader.  If VMS were in the hands of Bill  ! Gates, we'd already have VMS PCs. H Or even in the hands of Steve Jobs.  At least these two are shakers and 8 movers... something I don't see happening yet inside HP.     --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:22:29 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>7 Subject: Re: Opinion: I was just trying to sell OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <1fCdnQtjRMr5TLfZRVn-vA@bresnan.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:  a > In article <1143561538.707074.223560@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, davidc@montagar.com writes:  > D >>Given the existence of VMS Engineering as a collection of salaried> >>staff and harwdare investment to provide development/testing4 >>environments - exactly how is this a "$0.00" cost? >> >  > H >    If the cost of the underlying UNIX OS to Apple for OS X was 0, thenF >    the cost to HP for the underlying VMS OS for a new product is the
 >    same. > E >    Both of them being pre-existing OS already running on targetable  >    hardware. > = >    In neither case is the cost of porting the GUI, platform A >    porting, or any required mods to the underlying OS included.  >   B After going thru the Motif books, it really wouldn't take much to D sweeten up that GUI.  The rest of the design will entail making the G human interface more intuitive and easy to comprehend.  Downloading of  H new software should be a point-n-click operation... Apple does that now.J Removal of software is nothing more than a drag and dump to the trash can.8 Others say, "Can't they just use linux?"  But which one?     --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:38:02 -0500 - From: "Jim Agnew" <brainwavesurfer@gmail.com>  Subject: Re: qman$master.datI Message-ID: <a184d6630603290838s73ecff13s54c904e530f1255e@mail.gmail.com>   ( ------=_Part_4026_30952321.1143650282909, Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  Content-Disposition: inline   H Yikes!!!!  I had NO idea.  According to the PDP-11 manual I had, I never knew of that /switch...   J I'll stay away from it, plus never mention that TOP capability..  It's too dangerous..    Jim   F On 28 Mar 2006 09:47:29 -0600, Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@spamcop.net> wrote: > K > In article <a184d6630603280638k4949b3c3xddaccac9a2e664a0@mail.gmail.com>, 1 > "Jim Agnew" <brainwavesurfer@gmail.com> writes:  > H > > All the helpfull responses were already given...  In TOPS, one could > editG > > the disk in image mode, and I told my sysadmin that, and he totally 	 > freaked L > > out, until he was told it was not possible on VMS...  I did say it was = a 
 > > joke.. > D > Perhaps you thought it was a joke, but (with sufficient privilege) > I just had no problem with > " >         $ MOUNT/FOREIGN $1$DQB0:! >         $ TECO/INSPECT $1$DQB0:  > C > I am convinced it would work without the /INSPECT, but I actually 3 > want to keep the data on that disk the way it is.  >   ( ------=_Part_4026_30952321.1143650282909+ Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  Content-Disposition: inline   L Yikes!!!!&nbsp; I had NO idea.&nbsp; According to the PDP-11 manual I had, =L I never knew of that /switch...<br><br>I'll stay away from it, plus never m=L ention that TOP capability..&nbsp; It's too dangerous..<br><br>Jim<br><br><=  div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">L On 28 Mar 2006 09:47:29 -0600, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Larry Kilgalle=L n</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Kilgallen@spamcop.net">Kilgallen@spamcop.net</a=L >&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: =L 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;= ">L In article &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:a184d6630603280638k4949b3c3xddaccac9a2e664=L a0@mail.gmail.com">a184d6630603280638k4949b3c3xddaccac9a2e664a0@mail.gmail.=L com</a>&gt;, &quot;Jim Agnew&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brainwavesurfer@gm=	 ail.com"> L brainwavesurfer@gmail.com</a>&gt; writes:<br><br>&gt; All the helpfull resp=L onses were already given...&nbsp;&nbsp;In TOPS, one could edit<br>&gt; the =L disk in image mode, and I told my sysadmin that, and he totally freaked<br>=L &gt; out, until he was told it was not possible on VMS...&nbsp;&nbsp;I did = say it was aL <br>&gt; joke..<br><br>Perhaps you thought it was a joke, but (with suffici=L ent privilege)<br>I just had no problem with<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=L ;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$ MOUNT/FOREIGN $1$DQB0:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=L p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$ TECO/INSPECT $1$DQB0:<br><br>I am convinced it =/ would work without the /INSPECT, but I actually L <br>want to keep the data on that disk the way it is.<br></blockquote></div= ><br>   * ------=_Part_4026_30952321.1143650282909--   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Mar 2006 05:48:32 -0800+ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <comp.os.vms@hotmail.com> = Subject: Re: SAP small business solutions now run on OpenVMS! C Message-ID: <1143640112.650828.319740@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>   D IIRC that was a product they acquired to "enhance" their product set@ and claim penetration into the small business market.  It is not related to SAP as we know it.   < I doubt very much that it is or ever would be a VMS product.   Dweeb    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:05:40 -0500 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> = Subject: Re: SAP small business solutions now run on OpenVMS! I Message-ID: <8660a3a10603291005q44938f33q6fe125aad2617d90@mail.gmail.com>   I On 29 Mar 2006 05:48:32 -0800, Dr. Dweeb <comp.os.vms@hotmail.com> wrote: F > IIRC that was a product they acquired to "enhance" their product setB > and claim penetration into the small business market.  It is not > related to SAP as we know it.  > > > I doubt very much that it is or ever would be a VMS product. >  > Dweeb  >  > C If SAP was bringing something out running on VMS, I think Sue would + have been among the first to hear about it.   L A search using the term "OpenVMS" on the US SAP site  (sap.com/usa) gets 0 = hits.   ? A search using the term "VMS" gets 2 hits, one referring to R/3 1 replacing something on a "legacy VAX/VMS" system-   F The other is a 620 page .pdf of 2005 case studies which, when searched> has a reference almost identical to the first one I mentioned.  E On the other hand, their NetWeaver product is SOAP-based so that does * bring interesting possibilities into play.   WWWebb --C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Mar 2006 05:59:41 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com  Subject: Re: soyMAIL final BETA C Message-ID: <1143640781.334352.311320@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   / did you have to modify the install routine any?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 00:04:38 +0930 * From: Mark Daniel <mark.daniel@vsm.com.au> Subject: Re: soyMAIL final BETA 0 Message-ID: <122l5k2h1fv5ne7@corp.supernews.com>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote:1 > did you have to modify the install routine any?   8 I'm assuming a context of "for Purveyor".  Not one whit.  < http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ht_root/src/soymail/release_notes.txt  V http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ht_root/src/soymail/doc/soymail_admin.html#2.3.Purveyor|outline   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:09:54 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>P Subject: Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer6 Message-ID: <4429EC72.73334148@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Christopher Browne wrote:  > O > Clinging to sanity, "toby" <toby@telegraphics.com.au> mumbled into her beard:  > > davidc@montagar.com wrote:G > >> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a new M > >> OpenVMS Programmer.  Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together.  > > J > > It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90? > > - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQL H > > applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQLI > > has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) - , > > whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-) > B > I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on aD > platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into theC > operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...   H Indexing and record-level retrieval is only part of the story. RDBMSs doA much more than RMS, including providing an API that tools such as E Datatrieve never had. All-in-1 came close, but is a terrible resource  hog.  9 RMS lacks a data dictionary and a query language as well.   , (This from an old AIS, RSTS/E and VMS hand.)   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 22:54:01 -0500 + From: Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> P Subject: Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer/ Message-ID: <87r74lc3dy.fsf@wolfe.cbbrowne.com>   c Oops! "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> was seen spray-painting on a wall:  > Christopher Browne wrote:  >>  P >> Clinging to sanity, "toby" <toby@telegraphics.com.au> mumbled into her beard: >> > davidc@montagar.com wrote: H >> >> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a newN >> >> OpenVMS Programmer.  Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together. >> >K >> > It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90 @ >> > - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQLI >> > applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQL J >> > has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) -- >> > whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-)  >>  C >> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a E >> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the D >> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there... > J > Indexing and record-level retrieval is only part of the story. RDBMSs doC > much more than RMS, including providing an API that tools such as G > Datatrieve never had. All-in-1 came close, but is a terrible resource  > hog. > ; > RMS lacks a data dictionary and a query language as well.  > . > (This from an old AIS, RSTS/E and VMS hand.)  @ The thing is, MySQL is little more than a thin layering of a notC terribly consistent SQL "processor" on top of something rather less  mature than RMS... --  B wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('cbbrowne','ntlug.org')./ http://linuxdatabases.info/info/postgresql.html F Why  are  there  flotation   devices  under  plane  seats  instead  of parachutes?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:31:53 +0200 6 From: Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de>P Subject: Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer? Message-ID: <slrne2kaep.b3i.als@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>   & toby <toby@telegraphics.com.au> wrote: >  > Alexander Schreiber wrote:) >> toby <toby@telegraphics.com.au> wrote:  >> > >> > Christopher Browne wrote:S >> >> Clinging to sanity, "toby" <toby@telegraphics.com.au> mumbled into her beard: " >> >> > davidc@montagar.com wrote:K >> >> >> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a new Q >> >> >> OpenVMS Programmer.  Thanks for the effort in putting this bok together.  >> >> > N >> >> > It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the $90C >> >> > - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQL L >> >> > applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQLM >> >> > has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) - 0 >> >> > whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-) >> >> F >> >> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on aH >> >> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into theG >> >> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...  >> >L >> > MySQL is a rather different animal. For one thing, it offers SQL out ofL >> > the box. Its popularity elsewhere means that skills can be transferred;L >> > MySQL is easy to configure and maintain. Web applications built for theE >> > LAMP stack become portable to VMS. MySQL offers transactions and F >> > replication (and v5 includes triggers, stored procedures, and theD >> > kitchen sink). Just a few things that come immediately to mind. >>, >> It also doesn't believe in data integrity > G > I'm not sure what you mean by this. The developers may disagree. When  > did you last use it?  G Gave it up a few years ago in disgust and switched over to a real RDBMS 
 (PostgreSQL).    Try the following:   create table test (val int);+ insert into test (val) values (4294967296);   8 Notice the lack of a type constraint error being raised.   select * from test;   * with MySQL (last tested with 4.0) you get: mysql> select * from test; +------------+ | val        | +------------+ | 2147483647 | +------------+ 1 row in set (0.00 sec)   7 WTF? A so-called RDBMS that silently fucks up my data?    B Trying the same with PostgreSQL I get the expected "ERROR:  dtoi4:+ integer out of range" and no data inserted.   F Also, it doesn't support ACID by default (another WTF moment), one hasH to switch to a special table type (InnoDB) to get at least transactions.  E I've come to regard the use of MySQL instead of a real RDBMS as a big H warning sign "has no clue about databases". I've seen far too many MySQL( applications where that one was true :-(   Regards,        Alex. --  K "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and K  looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:46:50 +0200 6 From: Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de>P Subject: Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer? Message-ID: <slrne2kbaq.b3i.als@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>   $ Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote: > Alexander Schreiber wrote:, >> It also doesn't believe in data integrity >  > ????  - Silent data modification, see the other post: 4 <slrne2kaep.b3i.als@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>.  ? > You can choose between speed (MyISAM) and integrity (InnoDB).   G Which is a creative approach[1] in itself. And it is interesting to see 4 what will happen, now that Oracle has bought InnoDB.  G >>                                           and has very dubious ideas 0 >> about SQL and what a RDBMS is supposed to do. >  > 4.1 added subqueries.   : Finally, after it was "right around the corner" for years.  A > 5.0 added views (and stored proceduresd which I would not use).    You don't trust them yet? *g*   ( Stored procedures are a must. Views too.   > What more do you want ?   C Data integrity would be nice. Full ACID too. Referential integrity.   ? A less fucked up way to manage users. To cite the manual[0] for  creating users:   B GRANT SELECT,INSERT,UPDATE,DELETE,CREATE,DROP ON bankaccount.* TO - 'custom'@'localhost' IDENTIFIED BY 'obscure';   G Alternatively, hacking the system tables directly. And this is supposed  to be easy?   
 How about:  * create user foobar with password 's3kr3t';" grant select on finance to foobar; drop user foobar;    As used in another RDBMS?    Regards,        Alex.< [0] http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/adding-users.htmlC [1] And being creative when implementing a RDBMS is as good an idea      as creative accounting.  --  K "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and K  looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Mar 2006 05:21:04 -0800+ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <comp.os.vms@hotmail.com> P Subject: Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application DeveloperC Message-ID: <1143638464.081838.191420@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>   " Here is an interesting one to try.   create table T1 (c1 number);" create unique index X1 on T1 (c1); insert into T1 (c1) values (1);  insert into T1 (c1) values (2);  insert into T1 (c1) values (1); 3 -- this will generate an index duplicate violation)  commit; " -- and see how many rows you have. select count (*) from T1;   9 The answer will probably differ from database to database   
 Dr. Dweeb.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:25:52 +0200 + From: Marc Schlensog <fishtank.spam@web.de> Y Subject: Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer Develope : Message-ID: <20060329082552.a55238bb.fishtank.spam@web.de>  " On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 22:54:01 -0500, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org> wrote:   [...]  > B > The thing is, MySQL is little more than a thin layering of a notE > terribly consistent SQL "processor" on top of something rather less  > mature than RMS...  C Just for interest: What would be a viable zero-/lowcost alternative ) that covers the same needs as mySQL does?    TIA,   Marc   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:39:17 -0600 " From: VMS Guy <vmsguy@comcast.net>% Subject: VMS Admin Position Available ( Message-ID: <4429D735.50904@comcast.net>  G If you are interested in a VMS administration position in the DFW area  E please reply to this e-mail address with your resume and information   will be forwarded to you.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2006 16:53:49 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com ) Subject: Re: VMS Admin Position Available C Message-ID: <1143593629.000488.123640@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    what email address?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:47:16 -0500 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>) Subject: Re: VMS Admin Position Available , Message-ID: <xGlWf.4163$C85.3225@dukeread10>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > what email address?   + When no email address is explicit supplied, / then you must assume the FROM header are valid.    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:08:09 +0100 0 From: Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam>) Subject: Re: VMS Admin Position Available 4 Message-ID: <e0df99$ncv$1$830fa7a5@news.demon.co.uk>   VMS Guy wrote:I > If you are interested in a VMS administration position in the DFW area  G > please reply to this e-mail address with your resume and information   > will be forwarded to you.    deferred write ??    Chris    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Mar 2006 05:57:05 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com ) Subject: Re: VMS Admin Position Available C Message-ID: <1143640625.015189.260030@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   , I do not think vms...@comcast.net is a valid	 email ...    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Mar 2006 06:27:03 -0800' From: "syslost" <wm.reynolds@gmail.com> ) Subject: Re: VMS Admin Position Available C Message-ID: <1143642423.444983.258230@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    where is the dfw area?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:33:40 -0500 # From: sol gongola <sol@adldata.com> ) Subject: Re: VMS Admin Position Available 0 Message-ID: <1143642826.965795@nntp.acecape.com>   syslost wrote: > where is the dfw area? >  Should have written DFW.# Then it would be Dallas-Fort Worth.  I've been there, once.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Mar 2006 06:54:16 -0800< From: "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" <heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com>) Subject: Re: VMS Admin Position Available C Message-ID: <1143644056.819580.204020@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > I do not think   That's what I was afraid of.  8 > I do not think vms...@comcast.net is a valid email ...   Think bob, think...     A person call himself: "VMS Guy"7 And the suggested Email address is "vms...@comcast.net" < Hmmm... what 3 characters would I try instead of those dots.G I'm not garantueeing "guy" would work, but it seems a reasonable guess.    Cheers,  Hein.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:45:13 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ) Subject: Re: VMS Admin Position Available 9 Message-ID: <FtidnbW6xcaPWrfZnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@libcom.com>    Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: > bob@instantwhip.com wrote: >  >>I do not think >  >  > That's what I was afraid of.  @ Whatsa matter Hein?  You approaching your tolerance limits?  :-)   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:30:54 -0500 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> - Subject: Re: Where do DSA devices come from ? I Message-ID: <8660a3a10603291030g59462ab4v89228c5ce033aa17@mail.gmail.com>   L On 25 Mar 2006 09:59:11 -0600, Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@spamcop.net> wrot= e:@ > On an Alpha system with the latest copy of VMS I have verifyedH > that the VOLSHAD license is present and the SHADOWING system parameter  > has a value of 2 after reboot. > J > But I see no DSA device, and attempting a mount does not see one either. >   F The off-the-cuff response that came to my mind was "They come from the shadow fairy".   WWWebb --C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:27:24 +0200 ( From: JOUKJ <joukj@hrem.nano.tudelft.nl> Subject: X-server errors; Message-ID: <9f9d1$442a994c$82a13cad$7882@news1.tudelft.nl>    Hi all,   E Can someone point me to some easy way to interpret the cryptic error  = messages (see examples below) coming from OpenVMS's X-server?     E The reason for asking is that I noticed that programs using a recent  D version of GTK2 (i.e. Fedora core 5, My own port of GTK2 for VMS, A H compilation of GTK2 on OS-X) seem to fail when displayed using a screen E connected to a VMS machine and thus using the VMS X-server. The same  H executables run fine when using a a screen connected to a linux machine " and thus using the linux X-server.  9 I tested this for OpenVMS8.2 on Alpha with Decwindows 1.5   I I wonder if this is a bug in GTK2 or in DecWindows. In the latter case I  I can open a support-request at HP. The former case will be more difficult  A since no help is to be expected from the devlopers of GTK (their   application seems to work).     G When running the program on linux and displaying on a VMS-screen I get:  aaee-jj ) ./minimal --rsync 8 The program 'minimal' received an X Window System error., This probably reflects a bug in the program.8 The error was 'BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)'.B    (Details: serial 363 error_code 8 request_code 72 minor_code 0)H    (Note to programmers: normally, X errors are reported asynchronously;A     that is, you will receive the error a while after causing it. >     To debug your program, run it with the --sync command lineA     option to change this behavior. You can then get a meaningful C     backtrace from your debugger if you break on the gdk_x_error()  
 function.)	 aaee-jj )       E When running the same application on VMS and displaying on the local   system, I get : ' troika-jj) mc []minimal_gtk2.exe --sync  The program D 'troika$dka200:[joukj.public.wxwidgets.wx.wxwidgets.samples.minimal]6 minimal_gtk2.exe;1' received an X Window System error., This probably reflects a bug in the program.8 The error was 'BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)'.B    (Details: serial 742 error_code 8 request_code 72 minor_code 0)H    (Note to programmers: normally, X errors are reported asynchronously;A     that is, you will receive the error a while after causing it. >     To debug your program, run it with the --sync command lineA     option to change this behavior. You can then get a meaningful C     backtrace from your debugger if you break on the gdk_x_error()  
 function.)
 troika-jj)    < As said, displaying on the linux system works in both cases.                           Jouk   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2006 10:36:59 -0800 From: stuie_norris@yahoo.com.au " Subject: [Q] Make DS10 firmware CDC Message-ID: <1143571019.361259.262930@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>   	 Hi Group,   F Just got a cheap (well in Australia) Unix DS10 I am going to use as myC new hobbyist OVMS machine.  The DS10 has really old firmware on it. + When I tried to install OVMS it complained.   B The only firmware CD I have is for my older alpha - PC164 and thisC firmware is older than the one on the DS10 and I have no idea where  that CD is now days.  F Is it possible from the Digital FTP site to download the files for 7.1F firware and burning them to a CD with a PC program (Nero) and boot the+ DS10 from this CD and upgrade the firmware?   F Are there any instructions for this avaiable on the web or on HP /CPQ/ DEC web sites?  ) Thanks - some eager to try their new toy.    Stuarat    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.175 ************************