1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 12 May 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 263       Contents: Re: Compressing backup file  Re: Compressing backup file  Re: Compressing backup file P Re: H P To Launch Multi Million Dollar Ad Campaign For The PC [WASRe:OT:Intels q Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Millenium Impcon data export  Re: Millenium Impcon data export* Re: Reading 8mm tapes of an unknown format Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)# Re: Updated VMS information May 7th # Re: Updated VMS information May 7th * Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work?* Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work?* Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work? [OSDATA] What is OpenVMS  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:31:09 +0200 ? From: "Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann" <vaxinf@chemie.uni-konstanz.de> $ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file0 Message-ID: <066a01c67596$09858f90$05072286@vg2>   ----- Original Message -----  . From: "Hoff Hoffman" <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> To: <Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com> $ Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:36 PM$ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file     > Steven M. Schweda wrote:& >> From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> > 8 >>> Is DVD supported as output device for backup on 8.3? >>   >>    Directly?  I doubt it. > E >   The CD-R/RW and DVD+R/RW recording capabilities that are present  G > within V8.3 require the generation of a master, or the use of a file  J > containing a disk image.  The recording capabilities then replicate the G > master onto the target medium, akin to what CDRECORD and a gazillion  . > other recording tools traditionally provide. > J >   You can use BACKUP or COPY or other tools to populate the master, and > > you can then generate the optical medium from it, of course. > C >   Folks that are involved with the V8.3 EFT or that acquired the  E > associated V8.3 SDK do have access to these recording capabilities.  > H >   Given what is involved with establishing and managing the recording J > process, I'd generally not tend to expect to see recording capabilities ! > layered into various utilities.  > G >   It is certainly reasonably possible to provide driver-level direct  G > write access to DVD+RW (media lifetimes are arguably too short to be  H > useful) or for DVD-RAM media (far higher read-write cycles), but that H > driver capability is not available within V8.3.   That approach would A > allow BACKUP or other tools to write directly to optical media.  > G >   If you are interested in direct-recording, do let the folks at the  H > customer support center or your formal HP contact know.  (I certainly E > know how to implement the direct-recording capabilities within the  , > current SYS$DQDRIVER device driver stack.)  8 and the calls will be documented hopefully completely...   eberhard   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:09:43 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>$ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file0 Message-ID: <Xy19g.414$1h5.217@news.cpqcorp.net>   Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote:  H >>   It is certainly reasonably possible to provide driver-level direct H >> write access...,...but that driver capability is not available within
 >> V8.3...H >>   If you are interested in direct-recording, do let the folks at the < >> customer support center or your formal HP contact know...: > and the calls will be documented hopefully completely...  H    If you are interested in requesting direct-recording capabilities be G added into a future release of OpenVMS, do please escalate the request   through your formal contacts.   I    A direct-recording I/O write capability is not available within V8.3;  ; you cannot presently record directly onto rewritable media.   B    (The driver changes needed for direct-recording are not hugely ? difficult, but you would particularly need to use media with a  A substantial sector-level lifetime and/or a device and media with  H bad-blocking capabilities, and DVD-RW and DVD+RW aren't known for their A read-write cycles.  DVD-RAM does pretty well here, but I've seen  E extremely few of these drives available in or used in North America.)   G    There are no (new) calls in the I/O stack relevant to optical media  F recording, though there are now IO$_DIAGNOSE interfaces for DN- (SCSI F commands via USB), DK- (SCSI commands via SCSI) and DQ-type (SCSI via I IDE/ATAPI) devices around that can potentially record.  These interfaces    are all very similar, obviously.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:50:57 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> $ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file) Message-ID: <op.s9f6e7iizgicya@hyrrokkin>   J On Thu, 11 May 2006 09:41:28 -0700, Steven M. Schweda <sms@antinode.org>   wrote:  % > From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  > G >> Well I experimented with a large saveset, but had to use gzip, since 
 >> zip2.31 is # >> currently limited to 4GB,  [...]  > H >    More like 2GB, except on a very old VAX version (with VAX C).  BETAG > source kits for large-file-capable UnZip 6.00c and Zip 3.0e should be  > available at:   J Well, when I tried it on a large file it ground away for quite some time   and thenK emitted an error message that the uncompressed file was larger than 4GB.     Now D why wouldn't it first ascertain the file size before attempting to  	 compress?     4 >       ftp://ftp.info-zip.org/pub/infozip/OLD/beta/ > I > Aside from an occasional spurious run-time warning from the UnZip, they D > seem to be pretty reliable.  (Any problems which don't mention "76I > bytes" should be reported promptly.)  The real release could be getting 	 > closer.  >  >> Is DVD supported as output 	 >> device  >> for backup on 8.3?  >  >    Directly?  I doubt it.  > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 5 >    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 6 >    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818 >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:06:41 -0600  From: Dan Notov <d9nno@hp.com>Y Subject: Re: H P To Launch Multi Million Dollar Ad Campaign For The PC [WASRe:OT:Intels q % Message-ID: <4463FBC1.3010505@hp.com>    Top replying to be annoying.  D Well thank you mr statistics. I was not shooting at the hip, I just G responded with two facts not necessarily connected to each other. I'll  L shut up & go away now as I'm not competent to read & comment on this thread.     Bill Todd wrote: > Dan Notov wrote: >> Bill Todd wrote:  >>> Dan Notov wrote: >>>> Bill Todd wrote:  >>>>> Dan Notov wrote: >>>>> 	 >>>>> ...  >>>>> > >>>>>> HP has grabbed market share from Dell in the PC market. >>>>> H >>>>> Please provide a credible source for this 'fact':  I think I read J >>>>> recently that Dell's Q1 growth was about the same as that which you G >>>>> report for PSG, but the items in the relevant market baskets may   >>>>> not have been identical. >>>>> J >>>>> Of course, Dell continues to make far higher *profits* on its sales   >>>>> than HP does in any event. >>>>>  >>>>> - billB >>>> ...Until they warned the street that they will miss their 1Q 1 >>>> earnings estimates by 3-5 cents per share...  >>>>  >>>> About market share numbers:: >>>> http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060419/pc_shipments.html?.v=2B >>>> Computer shipments rose at a faster-than-expected 13 percent H >>>> worldwide in the first quarter, and the No. 1 PC maker, Dell Inc., C >>>> lost ground to rivals, two technology research firms reported   >>>> Wednesday.  >>>> ...I >>>> Gartner said Round Rock, Texas-based Dell saw its share of industry  J >>>> computer shipments decline to 16.5 percent in the first quarter from I >>>> 16.9 percent a year ago. Dell shipped 10.2 percent more PCs than it  H >>>> did in last year's first quarter -- a growth rate Gartner said was 4 >>>> Dell's slowest since the third quarter of 2001. >>>> ...I >>>> IDC put Dell's market share at 18.1 percent, down from 18.6 percent  = >>>> a year ago. IDC's report said Dell "may have focused on  G >>>> profitability at the expense of volumes, especially in the United  
 >>>> States."  >>>>F >>>> IDC and Gartner both put Palo Alto, Calif.-based Hewlett-Packard E >>>> Co.'s growth at about 22 percent. Gartner estimated HP's market  : >>>> share at 14.9 percent, and IDC put it at 16.4 percent >>> F >>> Interesting, but not necessarily relevant:  your previous post to D >>> which I responded referred to gross revenue, not numbers of PCs B >>> shipped, so revenue numbers (specifically, for PCs vs., e.g., . >>> servers) are the numbers in question here. >>> 
 >>> - billE >> I never stated growth in Revenue. Only when I showed you the unit  / >> numbers did you ask for the revenue numbers.  > I > You know, when matters of easily verifiable fact are concerned, rather  J > than just shooting incompetently from the hip you really ought to check C > the source (especially when the source happens to have been you).  > F > Your original post (to which I responded), after an assertion about I > market share which was not qualified as to whether it was with respect  J > to unit shipments or revenue, continued by stating that PSG had doubled I > its *profits* year-over-year, and then quoted several numbers from the  D > Q1 report - 5 of which concerned revenues, another of which again M > mentioned profit, and only one of which said anything about unit shipments.  > K > So in total your post mentioned revenue 5 times, profits twice, and unit  I > shipments once.  I'll suggest that where I got the impression that you  9 > were primarily talking about revenue is rather obvious.  >  >  Anyway, the best I can see I >> for Dell is 9.4BN in Desktop & Notebooks, vs. 7.4BN for HP's PSG unit. B >> This is based on quarterly numbers for the most recent filings. > K > That's better - now you just have to come up with the comparable numbers  K > for last year to determine whether HP's revenue share of the market grew  G > faster than Dell's (which it certainly could have, but is not yet in   > evidence). >  >>F >> No comment on the fact that they are going to seriously miss their  >> numbers?  > I > Despite its headline, the article which you cited actually stated that  K > Dell was coming in exactly at the bottom of the sales range which it had  K > forecast, not missing it.  It was, however, apparently going to miss its  I > earnings-per-share estimate (suggesting that it had been counting upon  H > higher per-unit profit than had actually occurred - which, given that H > the article said it had been 'swept up in price-cutting wars', is not  > all that surprising).  > J > When one's profit margin is as low as PSG's, doubling it YoY is not all = > that impressive.  Let us know if it ever approaches Dell's.  >  > - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 07:49:33 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium3 Message-ID: <7amb28cEaF23@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <1147372856.157532.316340@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, banditstan2000@yahoo.co.uk writes: > Hi, C > I've seen this covered in a few places, but I can't seem to get a E > definitive answer, and no reply so far from Montagar. Basically, is I > OpenVMS available under the Hobbyist license on Itanium? If it is, what G > organisation do I need to join before I can get a license and a media  > kit?  D    The last two FAQ that I've seen (last is September 05) still showE    IA-64 hibbyist as "soon", and "A hobbyist distribution for OpenVMS     I64 is expected."  1    Where can you get a cheap IA-64 to put VMS on?    ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 14:11:06 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4cjjbqF16gm43U3@individual.net>  3 In article <7amb28cEaF23@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:h > In article <1147372856.157532.316340@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, banditstan2000@yahoo.co.uk writes: >> Hi,D >> I've seen this covered in a few places, but I can't seem to get aF >> definitive answer, and no reply so far from Montagar. Basically, isJ >> OpenVMS available under the Hobbyist license on Itanium? If it is, whatH >> organisation do I need to join before I can get a license and a media >> kit?  > F >    The last two FAQ that I've seen (last is September 05) still showG >    IA-64 hibbyist as "soon", and "A hobbyist distribution for OpenVMS  >    I64 is expected." > 3 >    Where can you get a cheap IA-64 to put VMS on?   E I suppose I should mention at this point that the Automatic Web-based E PAK generator for the Educational Program also does not offer Itanium 
 as an option.    bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:16:30 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium/ Message-ID: <iF19g.415$Xg5.33@news.cpqcorp.net>    Bob Koehler wrote:  F >    The last two FAQ that I've seen (last is September 05) still showG >    IA-64 hibbyist as "soon", and "A hobbyist distribution for OpenVMS  >    I64 is expected."  F    I will leave discussions of this to Sue as part of her role in the C hobbyist program.  We're all rather busy with V8.3 and/or with the   upcoming bootcamp, however.   3 >    Where can you get a cheap IA-64 to put VMS on?   H    I've seen HP Itanium-based boxes capable of booting OpenVMS I64 sell F on eBay for under US$1000.  (I've been tempted to buy one, but then I E can get hand-me-down models from the office.  :-)  There is also the  I porting class, which includes an rx2620 as part of the US$2000 training.  G   Whether you view these prices as affordable, of course, is obviously  	 relative.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 08:25:32 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on ItaniumC Message-ID: <1147447532.140625.225140@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > Bob Koehler wrote: > H > >    The last two FAQ that I've seen (last is September 05) still showI > >    IA-64 hibbyist as "soon", and "A hobbyist distribution for OpenVMS  > >    I64 is expected." > G >    I will leave discussions of this to Sue as part of her role in the D > hobbyist program.  We're all rather busy with V8.3 and/or with the > upcoming bootcamp, however.  > 5 > >    Where can you get a cheap IA-64 to put VMS on?  > I >    I've seen HP Itanium-based boxes capable of booting OpenVMS I64 sell G > on eBay for under US$1000.  (I've been tempted to buy one, but then I F > can get hand-me-down models from the office.  :-)  There is also theJ > porting class, which includes an rx2620 as part of the US$2000 training.H >   Whether you view these prices as affordable, of course, is obviously > relative.   ) I've been doing nearly daily searches for A "rx1600,rx1620,rx2600,rx2620,rx4640" but have yet to see anything G priced lower than $2500.  Should I be looking for something else or did  I just miss them?   D I'd be tempted to sign up for a porting class but add to the $2K forB the class one week of pay plus room and board and it ends up to be= somewhat more than I can get past the family comptroller. ;-)    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 17:56:22 +0200C From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann)   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium2 Message-ID: <4464b026$1@merkur.rz.uni-konstanz.de>  C In article <1147447532.140625.225140@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, = "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes:  >  >Hoff Hoffman wrote: >> Bob Koehler wrote:  >>I >> >    The last two FAQ that I've seen (last is September 05) still show J >> >    IA-64 hibbyist as "soon", and "A hobbyist distribution for OpenVMS >> >    I64 is expected."  >>H >>    I will leave discussions of this to Sue as part of her role in theE >> hobbyist program.  We're all rather busy with V8.3 and/or with the  >> upcoming bootcamp, however. >>6 >> >    Where can you get a cheap IA-64 to put VMS on? >>J >>    I've seen HP Itanium-based boxes capable of booting OpenVMS I64 sellH >> on eBay for under US$1000.  (I've been tempted to buy one, but then IG >> can get hand-me-down models from the office.  :-)  There is also the A >> porting class, which includes an rx2620 as part of the US$2000 
 >training.I >>   Whether you view these prices as affordable, of course, is obviously  >> relative. > * >I've been doing nearly daily searches forB >"rx1600,rx1620,rx2600,rx2620,rx4640" but have yet to see anythingH >priced lower than $2500.  Should I be looking for something else or did >I just miss them? > E >I'd be tempted to sign up for a porting class but add to the $2K for C >the class one week of pay plus room and board and it ends up to be > >somewhat more than I can get past the family comptroller. ;-) >  >   2 A zx2000 (1 GHz, 1GB RAM) runs OpenVMS (~800 US$).3 You have to build in a DVD-ROM/DVD-recorder and use E the IDE-cable for the disk drive instead of the cable for the CD-ROM.    Eberhard? ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------ = Do your users want the best web-email gateway? Don't let your = customers drift off to free webmail services install your own  web gateway!? --  See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_webmail.htm  ----    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 09:58:15 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <uOQtJOXk9+H5@malvm9.mala.bc.ca>  3 In article <7amb28cEaF23@eisner.encompasserve.org>, A     koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:   D >> I've seen this covered in a few places, but I can't seem to get aF >> definitive answer, and no reply so far from Montagar. Basically, isJ >> OpenVMS available under the Hobbyist license on Itanium? If it is, whatH >> organisation do I need to join before I can get a license and a media >> kit?  > F >    The last two FAQ that I've seen (last is September 05) still showG >    IA-64 hibbyist as "soon", and "A hobbyist distribution for OpenVMS  >    I64 is expected." > 3 >    Where can you get a cheap IA-64 to put VMS on?  > C    Depends what you mean by "cheap". You can attend a porting class H for $2000 and get a "free" rx2620. You can sometimes find rx2600 systems= on Ebay for a few thousand ( though not all that frequently )    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 19:20:07 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4464dfe7$1@news.langstoeger.at>  ^ In article <iF19g.415$Xg5.33@news.cpqcorp.net>, Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:I >   I've seen HP Itanium-based boxes capable of booting OpenVMS I64 sell   >on eBay for under US$1000.   C "Capable" or "Supported". I think the former, because the latter is / unlikely as I have seen prices way over $5000.-   " Do you mean a zx2000 or what else?I I've seen a RX2600 for 2k, but it wasn't supported by VMS (because of old  Itanic version)   G >                            (I've been tempted to buy one, but then I  2 >can get hand-me-down models from the office.  :-)  H No Itanic here. Sigh. Application used is still not available for ItanicI and doesn't run on the scalable IP kernel (TCPIP V5.4 or later, mandatory M since VMS V8). Maybe I get a MARVEL when we're forced to switch to SOLARIS;-)   F >                                                   There is also the J >porting class, which includes an rx2620 as part of the US$2000 training. H >  Whether you view these prices as affordable, of course, is obviously 
 >relative.  K I could afford it, no problem. But I don't know if I want to spend so much.    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 19:23:56 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4464e0cc$1@news.langstoeger.at>   In article <1147447532.140625.225140@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: * >I've been doing nearly daily searches forB >"rx1600,rx1620,rx2600,rx2620,rx4640" but have yet to see anythingH >priced lower than $2500.  Should I be looking for something else or did >I just miss them?  1 Do you want "supported" or "(currently) working"?   E >I'd be tempted to sign up for a porting class but add to the $2K for C >the class one week of pay plus room and board and it ends up to be > >somewhat more than I can get past the family comptroller. ;-)  ? Money is no problem with the family controller but the time is. J One week in US means one week vacation less for the family = unacceptable.   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 19:38:46 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4464e446$1@news.langstoeger.at>  ` In article <uOQtJOXk9+H5@malvm9.mala.bc.ca>, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes:D >   Depends what you mean by "cheap". You can attend a porting classI >for $2000 and get a "free" rx2620. You can sometimes find rx2600 systems > >on Ebay for a few thousand ( though not all that frequently )  B $2K is exactly my limit. However I won't attend the porting class.F But if someone from around here (Vienna, Austria, Europe) would attendE and has no need for the system (because it would be his umpteenth ;-)  then drop me a note...   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 05:44:40 -0700 From: m.whitby@gmail.com% Subject: Millenium Impcon data export B Message-ID: <1147437880.382547.64170@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  G Hi all, I need to export data from a system that runs on OpenVMS called A Impcon - this system has no group so I'm asking in the VMS group, / hopefully someone has some helpful information.   G The background is that in previous years data has been exported via a a G product called Easysoft rms-odbc bridge. This ran a server on VMS which E allowed users to connect and basically interact with the data from an D ODBC connection. The license for this has now expired and costs manyE thousands of pounds to renew which might be worth it if we planned on B continous usage of the product but we simply want to do a completeF export of the data held on the impcon system so that we can migrate to another system.   G Has anyone got any experiance of impcon or the database it uses? I have F read it uses RMS to store the data although I have heard the format ofG this database is application specific, therefore it would be impossible @ to obtain a generic RMS interpreter and extract the data in that method.   G As mentioned previously, what is required is a way to export the entire G contents of the impcon database tables etc in a standard format such as 1 CSV. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.   B On a last note, unfortuanatly my experiance of VMS is very limitedF although I am aware the version of quite outdated (V7.3-1). Thanks for! any help that anyone can provide.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 07:58:18 -0700$ From: "Wilm" <w4.boerhout@planet.nl>) Subject: Re: Millenium Impcon data export B Message-ID: <1147445898.624348.85460@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>  E How important is your data? Apparently not "many thousands of pounds"  worth.  : I'd say, contract someone to read the application/databaseG documentation and do the job for you. If it were in the Netherlands, my F company would do it for you. If an ODBC connection is/was running, the export is certainly doable.   F Then again, compute labor cost vs. license cost. A couple of thousandsF of pounds is a number of person weeks of labor. That may or may not be enough.    /Wilm    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:10:45 -0400   From: "DBT" <dbturner@icusc.com>3 Subject: Re: Reading 8mm tapes of an unknown format 0 Message-ID: <1269287dirnaobc@news.supernews.com>  A If you need one of these TTI Tape drives i have one here in stock  I think it's a 5GB 8MM   I'll let it go for $100    David    --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X251  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com  Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html   & <healyzh@aracnet.com> wrote in message& news:e3tofp0199c@enews4.newsguy.com...* > Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn@gmail.com> wrote:G > > We've gotten a request to read old data (circa 1993) from old tapes H > > (8mm). Of course the data is in an unknown format. The people in ourF > > data center were able to dig up an old TTI TKZ09 tape drive (modelC > > CTS-8510-DDH). I'm able to hook it up to one of our Alpha boxes K > > (running v7.3-2) which does see it. I'm able to mount a test tape using I > > "/foreign", but when I try to read the tape, I get nothing but parity  > > errors.  > F > Do yourself a favor, try and find an outfit that specializes in such things. G > Trying to read ~13 year old 8mm tapes is not something you want to be  doing E > without a lot of experience with such things.  Shoot, as far as I'm A > concerned it's not something you want to be doing with a lot of  experience, I > as the odds are seriously against you.  It is one of the least reliable < > formats ever.  An 8mm tape is only good for about 2 years. >  > Zane >    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 03:20:19 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.C Message-ID: <1147429219.298190.242930@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   E I'd think it unlikely that HP could get back the edu market with VMS. F Too many are in love with Windows and VMS, even for the edu market, is@ too expensive with too few applications.  Sure, you can run yourE processor fab on it but can you run all of the applications that your 3 students use easily and cheaply on it?  I doubt it.   F When I worked at Leicester University, we had a few VMS systems that ID managed.  The library catalogue has since moved to Unix when SLS got@ bought.  The residual VMS service for students has gone, as haveD payroll and MIS (the latter to SAP which isn't available in a recent version on VMS).   ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 08:04:23 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.3 Message-ID: <bzeBSTyVSvjs@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <4ci664F15ouoiU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  >  > Comments?   D    An excellent example of what the loack of advertising has done toE    VMS.  Completely in line with the response of a co-worker who said .    "but that only runs on those old machines".  I    OBTW, Netbeans, an IDE for Java writen in Java, is available for Alpha G    and IA-64.  The VMS port has been extended for some other languages  #    and has an EDT editor extension.    ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 14:17:11 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cjjn7F16gm43U4@individual.net>  3 In article <sEFbXALxBFcE@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:Y > In article <4ci664F15ouoiU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: G >> You may remember I asked a few days ago about what questions I could H >> ask to try and find out why people choose Unix over VMS.  I tried it.F >> Granted, my sampling size was very small and not statistically sig-H >> nificant.  But, I think even these results are interesting.  So, hereC >> we go.  Comments/discussion of the results would be appreciated.  >  >> Comments? > # > Thanks for putting in the effort.   C Ok, what's the next step?  Any chance of someone with the resources A (Ken Farmer?) and experience with doing surveys setting up a more D expanded version of this survey?  Any way to do a targeted survey ofD educational sites?  I know it's a long shot, but if there was enoughA data to prove the concept maybe HP could be convinced to at least F make an effort to market in the EDU world or maybe even provide thingsA like grants and such to get back in there.  Based on my findings, E there is still apossibility of reviving this market, to the better of B VMS, but that window of opportunity is rapidly closing as more andD more "youngsters" move into CS faculties with no experience with VMS at all.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 14:33:53 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cjkmhF16hdm9U1@individual.net>  C In article <1147401790.332866.103600@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, > 	"johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: >  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:G >> You may remember I asked a few days ago about what questions I could H >> ask to try and find out why people choose Unix over VMS.  I tried it.F >> Granted, my sampling size was very small and not statistically sig-H >> nificant.  But, I think even these results are interesting.  So, hereC >> we go.  Comments/discussion of the results would be appreciated.  >>K >> First, the sample size.  Just my department faculty, 8 people.  Of those K >> 8, only 4 responded.  I think this says something in its own right.  But  >> we can cover that later.  >>F >> Next, the questions.  Given no specific questions, I kept it pretty >> general.  >>1 >> 1.  Between VMS and Unix, which do you prefer?  >> >> 2.  Why?  >>% >> 3.  Which one did you learn first?  >>N >> 4.  What other OSes (ignoring PC OSes for the sake of this discussion) have7 >>     you used enough to consider yourself proficient?  >># >> And  now we go onto the answers.  >> >> ----------------  >> Professor #1  >>
 >> 1.  VMS >>@ >> 2. In some ways, I view VMS as "Unix done right";  that is, IA >>    understand it as having being inspired by and adopting most B >>    of the good things about Unix, but done more professionally, >>    regularly, and securely. >>E >> 3.  I studied and gained experience with Unix before VMS, but made H >>     more substantial use of VMS before I made equivalent use of Unix. >>K >> 4.  Various IBM mainframe OSs, such as VM, etc., Prime, MVS, even Xerox.  >> >> >> --------------------  >> Professor #2  >>A >> 1.  Unix.  Of course, here I'm referring strictly to the "user @ >>     interface" and not to the "under the hood" type of stuff,$ >>     about which I know even less. >>A >> 2.  Mostly because I am more familiar with Unix and hence find @ >>     it easier to do certain tasks.  These may be equally easy= >>     in VMS but I simply don't know how to do it there.  An A >>     example is to determine the current/working directory.  In @ >>     Unix, the command 'pwd' provides that info.  I know of noC >>     analogous command in VMS.  Another directory-related issue I B >>     have with VMS is that if you change directories (using 'setC >>     default') into a non-existent directory, no error message is F >>     given.  And you end up in some kind of netherworld in the senseF >>     that it is not easy to get back to the directory where you wereG >>     before issuing the erroneous command.  (Or at least I don't know F >>     how to do so.)  I find the 'HELP' feature in VMS to be not veryH >>     helpful and, in fact, even worse than Unix's dreaded "man" pages. >>A >> 3.  VMS.  On a VAX 11/780 (750?) at the U of S in 1983.  I was B >>     introduced to Unix in 1985 at graduate school, where I also >>     used MTS. >>. >> 4.  None.  (I've completely forgotten MTS.) >> >> ------------------------  >> Professor #3  >>
 >> 1. Unix >> >>D >> 2.  Because VMS is not available for any computer that I OWN.  SoD >>     I can play around with unix on my computers in a stronger wayD >>     than I could  with VMS.  However, in general, I preferred the  >>     command structure of VMS. >>
 >> 3.  VMS >>F >> 4.  In the past I've used RSTS/E, RT-11, a couple of IBM O/S es andG >>     some from other hardware vendors but quite frankly right now I'd H >>     have trouble doing anything with them that wasn't at least pretty >>     similar to VMS or unix. >> >> ----------------  >> Professor #4  >>@ >> 1.  VAX, but unfortunately, it does not seem to be in demand. >>  >> 2.  Protection/access detail. >>
 >> 3.  VAX >> >> 4.  none  >> >> ------------------ D >> The order is not significant and reflects the order in which theyD >> responded to me.  Needless to say, the first one surprised me andD >> I discussed it further with him in the hall (that's where we holdB >> some of our best academic discussions! :-)  He then informed meB >> that he actually would prefer to do more of his copurse work onB >> VMS if the tools were available, citing specifically Java and aD >> good IDE.  While my using VAXen makes this impossible, Alphas canC >> definitely run Java and I wouldthink that an IDE written in Java A >> (like Eclipse) would work on VMS.  Interesting that no one has ? >> ever approached me before to ask if we could do more on VMS, D >> apparently because, as has often been states here, the perception@ >> that VMS is legacy and these modern computer concepts are not
 >> available.  >>C >> Looking at the next two, choice of Unix appears to be based on a C >> lack of knowledge or a misconception.  And 4th had little to say D >> except that they would prefer VMS (Note the constant reference toD >> "VAX" which shows how long since he actually used it on a regular	 >> basis.  >>D >> Looks to me like if HP actually wanted it they could have the EDU >> market again. >>H >> Oh yeah, I said I would comment on the 4/8 respondents.  Again, basedF >> on informal discussions in the hall, the 4 who did not respond justH >> thought it was humorous as they consider VMS to be irrelevant at this >> time. >> >> Comments? > @ > I find it interesting that a professor in the Computer Science( > department (I assume - could be Math)   < CS faculty, Math background.  Real good at the theoreticals.  H >                                       can make his/her way through theF > tangled web of "man", yet cannot deduce that if you "set default" toI > change directories then a perhaps the "show default" command might tell  > you where you are.    E I have to admit that I did not make that connection right away, but I ! did eventually figure it out. :-)    @ >                    They started out on VMS in 1983.  The "ShowG > default" command has been there since I can remember (VMS V2.1).  And " > "Help" being worse than 'man"?     Again, I was the same.  G >                                 I guess it's just what you're used to + > but I still find that hard to comprehend.   F Really quite simple.  Unix has a help command.  It doesn't do what youE think.  It is (was, probably not any more) a sub-command of SCCS.  Of I course, there were versions of Unix (Ultrix-11 for example) that provided I a generic help command but it usually returned little more than a watered  down version of the man pages.  F As for the logic of a command called "man". Where do you go to look upE information about the system?  Naturally, to the "manual".  And "man" E refers to the online Manusal Pages so you didn't have to run down the   hall looking for the paper ones.     > G > Thanks for the info on your poll.  It is indeed interesting, although E > without some hefty discounts on hardware (even the new IA64 systems D > which are much cheaper then their Alpha counterparts) I doubt mostC > colleges would be willing to bring back VMS. It' s a nice thought B > though.  I know I certainly had a grand time in college with our	 > 11/780.   C Discounts and outright grants would be nice, but a start would be a C targeted marketing (there's the "M" word again) program to at least F convince the EDU community that VMS was alive and well and still goingC strong.  It could be the best bang for their buck.  After all, look C at what it did for Unix which was not even allowed to be advertised @ during it's biggest times in the EDU world.  There is n o betterD advertising than graduating thousands of future IT managers who know the real value of VMS.   bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 14:45:10 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cjlblF16iho2U1@individual.net>  C In article <1147429219.298190.242930@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,  	etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk writes: G > I'd think it unlikely that HP could get back the edu market with VMS.   K Based ont he responses I got in my little Un-scientific Straw Poll, I would I have to disagree. There are still bound to be faculty at other schools as K well that remember VMS and think it was a better OS for teaching.  All that K needs to be done is to refresh their memories so that they stop thinking of G VMS as gone.  Where better to introduce people to the advantages of VMS C than in the classroom.  No corporate politics or empire building to . fight.  In his classroom the professor is god.  # > Too many are in love with Windows   B Sure they are.  but not everything in a CS course of study is doneF on VMS.  Most is done on Unix.  And that part could be supplanted withF VMS.  I am not saying that Unix could be be (or should be) eliminated,C only that VMS has a place and it can re-take that place if HP could $ be convinced that it was worthwhile.  I >                                    and VMS, even for the edu market, is B > too expensive with too few applications.  Sure, you can run yourG > processor fab on it but can you run all of the applications that your 5 > students use easily and cheaply on it?  I doubt it.   E If you mean desktop apps, they don't run them on Unix either.  Like I E said, Windows isn't going away, but VMS definitely has a place.  And, E once more people are back using VMS in the academic environment there G is an even stronger possibility that many of those missing applications D will find their way onto VMS.  As the number of people familiar withE and interested in working on VMS grows, so too, the body of potential H bodies to do the grunt work of porting applications in their spare time.   > H > When I worked at Leicester University, we had a few VMS systems that IF > managed.  The library catalogue has since moved to Unix when SLS gotB > bought.  The residual VMS service for students has gone, as haveF > payroll and MIS (the latter to SAP which isn't available in a recent > version on VMS).  J Our admin is still done on VMS.  I think the Library is too, but the usersH never see it at that level so it really doesn't matter.  But, the targetG here would be primarily CS departments who have historically maintained F their own computer systems and were once strong advocates of VMS.  TheF supporters still remain (at least for the moment) and I think it would be possible to build on this.     bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 14:48:29 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cjlhtF16iho2U2@individual.net>  3 In article <bzeBSTyVSvjs@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:Y > In article <4ci664F15ouoiU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  >>   >> Comments? > F >    An excellent example of what the loack of advertising has done toG >    VMS.  Completely in line with the response of a co-worker who said 0 >    "but that only runs on those old machines".  E But one I think could be reversed.  And a targeted marketing campaign @ could be done cheap enough that it might be possible to actually( convince someone at HP to give it a try.   > K >    OBTW, Netbeans, an IDE for Java writen in Java, is available for Alpha I >    and IA-64.  The VMS port has been extended for some other languages  % >    and has an EDT editor extension.   C They used to use Netbeans here but have lately become enamored with D Eclipse.  That is also written in Java.  Anybody tried running it on VMS?     bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 02:26:32 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>% Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 = Message-ID: <qZ-dndffK-YEt_nZRVn-rA@metrocastcablevision.com>    Tom Linden wrote: I > On Thu, 11 May 2006 12:50:46 -0700, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>   > wrote: >  >> Malcolm Dunnett wrote:    ...   ( >>   I'm certainly not suggesting anyoneH >>> would ever do it, but I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to build aB >>> VAX chip today ( using all the latest and greatest tricks and  >>> processes ) : >>> that would be competetive with the x86 chips of today. >>J >> People like Mashey think not.  x86 is a very simple CISC compared with G >> VAX, and the pipelining optimizations applicable to x86 and used in  H >> modern x86 implementations would not work nearly as well for the VAX J >> ISA due to its complexity (for starters, being a 3-address rather than $ >> mostly a 1-address architecture). > Bill,  > @ > When Mashey wrote the article you couldn't put half a billion  > transistors on a > chip.   G True enough.  But he reiterated a similar view within the past year in  E comp.arch, when you *could* put half a billion transistors on a chip.   E Not that that's particularly relevant, of course:  even if you could  G build a competitive VAX *today* (something I'm by no means comfortable  E conceding more than hypothetically), the fact that you couldn't have  E done so during the decade-plus of the '90s through early 2000s meant  4 that extending the VAX was not an option regardless.  G And even if you could build a competitive VAX today, it would still be  E considerably *harder* to do so (and occupy more real estate, consume  @ more power, etc.) than to build a competitive (far simpler) x86.  @    Also remember because VAX had a more advanced instruction set > than risc H > with objects about 1/3 the size it didn't need multi-level caches and  > correspondingly 0 > broad (uncontended) channels to primary memory  B Of course it would have - if only to handle data efficiently (the I density of which is essentially unaffected by instruction density).  And  D the importance of concise instruction sets may be over-rated, since E instruction flow is inherently more sequential than many patterns of  = data access (not to mention being susceptible to intelligent  H out-of-order pre-fetch even across unpredicted branches, unless someone E is playing around with computed gotos) and hence even relatively fat  G instructions can be streamed in a timely manner at almost any required  E bandwidth from larger, slower levels of cache with minimal impact on   performance.  E The TPC-C performance of Montecito (compared with Madison II - TPC-C  G being one of the few Montecito benchmarks yet posted) seems relatively  G little improved by the relatively major improvement in its instruction  I cache hierarchy (moving from a 256 KB L2 shared between instructions and  I data in Madison II to a private 1 MB instruction L2 in Montecito):  it's  H only about 25% higher per core at the same clock rate, and most of that H is very likely due to Montecito's use of SoeMT dual-threading, a 256 KB A L2 now private to data, and a 33% larger L3 cache (plus whatever  G compiler improvements occurred in the year or so between submissions).  A Itanic does have an exemplary cache hierarchy, but it seems more  D important for data performance than for instruction performance (at D least after some reasonable plateau in the latter has been reached, C which likely requires considerably less in the way of caching than  @ Itanic enjoys) - so the hypothetical VAX would want a similarly I impressive cache hierarchy for data access (and, conversely, Itanic does  H not appear to need something that advanced for instructions access, nor  would the hypothetical VAX).  C It's really difficult to imagine that the effort to make VEST work  E really well would have been greater than that required to make a VAX  A that would have matched the performance curve of Alpha over time  C (especially the curve which could have been attained had the Alpha  H efforts not been hamstrung) - conceding, for the sake of argument, that 0 the latter would have even been possible at all.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:12:27 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> % Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 = Message-ID: <4464515b$0$60781$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    JF Mezei wrote: E > It isn't quite like that. When the Stallard/Winkler type manages to G > convince Hurd to kill VMS, it will be because he will have some study F > with him showing that X % of VMS customers would migrate to HP-UX orF > Windows and that this percentage woudl generate revenus, which, whenH > combined with the cost savings by firing all the VMS people, would end > up to be a + for HP.  F HP has products were they sell huge quantities and products like VMS. E All of these products require the attention of the management.  Thus  F small products like VMS may distract management from making the right H decisions on other products than VMS.  It is impossible to put money on G how much they are losing on sales of other products because management  E use resources on VMS.  However, that makes is a good idea to kill or  . sell VMS while HP is still making money on it.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 07:38:56 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) % Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 3 Message-ID: <Lxb9pY1EMIpz@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <rJEcX0Or9Nlf@malvm9.mala.bc.ca>, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes:6 > In article <tUioAZzJ41zK@eisner.encompasserve.org>, B >    koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >  >>  H >>    VAX should not have been extended to 64 bits.  VAX was already tooI >>    damn slow.  VAX couldn't compete against 32 bit RISC.  The decision K >>    to make Alpha 64 bit was along the line of a good idea as long as DEC . >>    knew they had to replace the VAX anyhow. >>   > F >    The "conventional wisdom" of the time was that CISC architecturesE > were too complex to be speeded up enough and that RISC was the only  > way to go.  D    While we were all surpised that Intel could keep x86 speeds up toC    compete with RISC, it became quite clear that DEC could not keep     VAX speeds up.   C    When a group I know bought a VAX 9000, DEC was claiming that the B    CPU modules in it were "basically RISC" without explaining what@    that meant.  One of the engineers considered the speed of theD    $1M VAX 9000 and replied that it would keep up with his $30K UNIX    RISC workstation.  I >>    Jumping from Alpha to IA64 is a much more serious question, as well G >>    as deciding to stay with VAX instead of porting to 386 before DEC 1 >>    lost all its sales to UNIX RISC and Wintel.  >>  F >      Yes, and how would the world look today if DEC hadn't cancelled > PRISM?  G    Too little, too late.  DEC needed to get VMS off the VAX before UNIX B    RISC beat the stuffing out of the VAX market, not after.  PRISMB    wouldn't have made it to market that many years prior to Alpha.  F    Emerald is the project that would have made VMS quite portable, but4    DEC didn't understand they were selling software.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 07:12:06 -0600 6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam>% Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 , Message-ID: <XO%8g.2$54.545@news.uswest.net>       : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message% news:446395FE.61195AC@teksavvy.com...  > Malcolm Dunnett wrote:G > >    However that same thinking suggested that the 80x86 architecture  could K > > never keep up either and was doomed. I'm not a chip designer, but Intel F > > certainly seems to have found ways to get those speed enhancements without % > > sacrificing binary compatibility.  > I > That is because the 8086's instruction set was much simpler than VAX's. H > Intel didn't steal Vax tricks for its 8086, they stole Alpha tricks to > embed into the 8086. >   K Since the 8086/8088 processors were on the market long before the Alpha was I even on the drawing board, you must mean Intel "stole" from the Alpha for J later processors.  Actually, the 8086 to 80286 were partially based on theI IBM mainframe processors.  You could even go so far as to write emulation K code on the 8086 that was nearly a one-to-one match for the BAL instruction E set IBM designed.  The biggest differences were the "masked edit" BAL L instruction, which was developed to support COBOL and the fact that when IBMI developed their mainframes, stack based languages were still years in the I future.  The Intel 8086 processor was develoed for stack based languages, 8 thus it had hardware support for a call and frame stack.  G When Intel started working on the 80386 they started looking at non-IBM L processors for ideas.  Yes, Intel hired away several of the Alpha designers,K but that wasn't until the 80486 era when Intel engineers realized that they K would have to rework the x86 instruction set into a RISC based microcode in I order to keep up.  Today there are no "pure" CISC processors and very few F "pure" RISC processors.  Almost all processors are RISC internally andA present a mixture of RISC and CISC instructions on their external  interfaces.   
 Mike Ober.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 06:36:47 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> % Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 ) Message-ID: <op.s9fxflj9zgicya@hyrrokkin>   H On Thu, 11 May 2006 23:26:32 -0700, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>   wrote:   > Tom Linden wrote: K >> On Thu, 11 May 2006 12:50:46 -0700, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>   	 >> wrote:  >> >>> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >  > ...  > ) >>>   I'm certainly not suggesting anyone I >>>> would ever do it, but I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to build a D >>>> VAX chip today ( using all the latest and greatest tricks and   >>>> processes ); >>>> that would be competetive with the x86 chips of today.  >>> L >>> People like Mashey think not.  x86 is a very simple CISC compared with  I >>> VAX, and the pipelining optimizations applicable to x86 and used in   J >>> modern x86 implementations would not work nearly as well for the VAX  L >>> ISA due to its complexity (for starters, being a 3-address rather than  % >>> mostly a 1-address architecture).  >> Bill,C >>  When Mashey wrote the article you couldn't put half a billion    >> transistors on a  >> chip. > J > True enough.  But he reiterated a similar view within the past year in  G > comp.arch, when you *could* put half a billion transistors on a chip.  > H > Not that that's particularly relevant, of course:  even if you could  J > build a competitive VAX *today* (something I'm by no means comfortable  H > conceding more than hypothetically), the fact that you couldn't have  H > done so during the decade-plus of the '90s through early 2000s meant  6 > that extending the VAX was not an option regardless. > J > And even if you could build a competitive VAX today, it would still be  H > considerably *harder* to do so (and occupy more real estate, consume  B > more power, etc.) than to build a competitive (far simpler) x86. > B >    Also remember because VAX had a more advanced instruction set >> than riscJ >> with objects about 1/3 the size it didn't need multi-level caches and   >> correspondingly1 >> broad (uncontended) channels to primary memory  > E > Of course it would have - if only to handle data efficiently (the   L > density of which is essentially unaffected by instruction density).  And  G > the importance of concise instruction sets may be over-rated, since   H > instruction flow is inherently more sequential than many patterns of  @ > data access (not to mention being susceptible to intelligent  K > out-of-order pre-fetch even across unpredicted branches, unless someone   H > is playing around with computed gotos) and hence even relatively fat  J > instructions can be streamed in a timely manner at almost any required  H > bandwidth from larger, slower levels of cache with minimal impact on   > performance. > H > The TPC-C performance of Montecito (compared with Madison II - TPC-C  J > being one of the few Montecito benchmarks yet posted) seems relatively  J > little improved by the relatively major improvement in its instruction  L > cache hierarchy (moving from a 256 KB L2 shared between instructions and  L > data in Madison II to a private 1 MB instruction L2 in Montecito):  it's  K > only about 25% higher per core at the same clock rate, and most of that   K > is very likely due to Montecito's use of SoeMT dual-threading, a 256 KB   D > L2 now private to data, and a 33% larger L3 cache (plus whatever  J > compiler improvements occurred in the year or so between submissions).  D > Itanic does have an exemplary cache hierarchy, but it seems more  G > important for data performance than for instruction performance (at   G > least after some reasonable plateau in the latter has been reached,   F > which likely requires considerably less in the way of caching than  C > Itanic enjoys) - so the hypothetical VAX would want a similarly   L > impressive cache hierarchy for data access (and, conversely, Itanic does  K > not appear to need something that advanced for instructions access, nor    > would the hypothetical VAX). > F > It's really difficult to imagine that the effort to make VEST work  H > really well would have been greater than that required to make a VAX  D > that would have matched the performance curve of Alpha over time  F > (especially the curve which could have been attained had the Alpha  K > efforts not been hamstrung) - conceding, for the sake of argument, that   2 > the latter would have even been possible at all.F Well VEST was static, imagine instead an emulator, like CHARON-VAX, orC even one with FX!32 like capabilities.  In some ways SRI's recent    announcementH demonstrates that it is possible to attain high poerformance with VAX IS Tom  >  > - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 14:06:08 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)% Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 , Message-ID: <4cjj2gF16gm43U1@individual.net>  ) In article <op.s9fxflj9zgicya@hyrrokkin>, & 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: > H > Well VEST was static, imagine instead an emulator, like CHARON-VAX, orE > even one with FX!32 like capabilities.  In some ways SRI's recent    > announcementJ > demonstrates that it is possible to attain high poerformance with VAX IS  D The only real shortcoming to that is the lack of IEEE floating pointC (and thus also more modern concepts like Java) which is why if I am C going to continue to pursue VMS within the EDU world it lookks like D time to say good-bye to my beloved VAX and find a way to make AlphasB available within the department.  And, who knows, eventually maybe
 even Itanium?    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 14:08:08 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)% Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 , Message-ID: <4cjj68F16gm43U2@individual.net>  , In article <XO%8g.2$54.545@news.uswest.net>,9 	"Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes:  >    > < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message' > news:446395FE.61195AC@teksavvy.com...  >> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: H >> >    However that same thinking suggested that the 80x86 architecture > could L >> > never keep up either and was doomed. I'm not a chip designer, but IntelG >> > certainly seems to have found ways to get those speed enhancements 	 > without & >> > sacrificing binary compatibility. >>J >> That is because the 8086's instruction set was much simpler than VAX's.I >> Intel didn't steal Vax tricks for its 8086, they stole Alpha tricks to  >> embed into the 8086.  >> > M > Since the 8086/8088 processors were on the market long before the Alpha was K > even on the drawing board, you must mean Intel "stole" from the Alpha for L > later processors.  Actually, the 8086 to 80286 were partially based on theK > IBM mainframe processors.  You could even go so far as to write emulation M > code on the 8086 that was nearly a one-to-one match for the BAL instruction  > set IBM designed.     L Which may be what gave us the PC-370.  Boy I wish I had a couple of them for my collection!!    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:50:14 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>% Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 0 Message-ID: <W829g.419$Qh5.114@news.cpqcorp.net>   Tom Linden wrote:   H > Well VEST was static, imagine instead an emulator, like CHARON-VAX, orD > even one with FX!32 like capabilities.  In some ways SRI's recent > > announcement demonstrates that it is possible to attain high > poerformance with VAX IS    F    If you or another customer were to offer a sufficient incentive as I part of the discussion, I'm quite sure folks here at HP would be willing  I to at least discuss your particular requirements for a new VAX with you.  H   (You could conceivably pay for the privilege of picking the VAX model  number, too.  :-)   D    Fully custom computers have been feasible for fifty years or so, H after all, and are now somewhat less than the hand-wired efforts of old H given the availability of gate arrays and ASICs and IC CAD -- it's only F the economies of mass production that have brought the costs down for  the rest of us, however.  F    Don't forget to save up to fund the box(es) that needs to be built F around your new VAX, too, and to save for any work needed to port the D existing code over should you any authorize incompatible changes or H improvements.  (And all here should HP decide to accept your particular " request for a new VAX, obviously.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:14:01 -0600 6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam>% Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 - Message-ID: <Kl39g.20$54.532@news.uswest.net>        5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message & news:4cjj68F16gm43U2@individual.net.... > In article <XO%8g.2$54.545@news.uswest.net>,: > "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes: > >  > > > > > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message) > > news:446395FE.61195AC@teksavvy.com...  > >> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: J > >> >    However that same thinking suggested that the 80x86 architecture	 > > could H > >> > never keep up either and was doomed. I'm not a chip designer, but Intel I > >> > certainly seems to have found ways to get those speed enhancements  > > without ( > >> > sacrificing binary compatibility. > >>L > >> That is because the 8086's instruction set was much simpler than VAX's.K > >> Intel didn't steal Vax tricks for its 8086, they stole Alpha tricks to  > >> embed into the 8086.  > >> > > K > > Since the 8086/8088 processors were on the market long before the Alpha  was I > > even on the drawing board, you must mean Intel "stole" from the Alpha  for J > > later processors.  Actually, the 8086 to 80286 were partially based on the C > > IBM mainframe processors.  You could even go so far as to write 	 emulation C > > code on the 8086 that was nearly a one-to-one match for the BAL  instruction  > > set IBM designed.  > J > Which may be what gave us the PC-370.  Boy I wish I had a couple of them for  > my collection!!  >   , I hadn't thought of that - you may be right.   Mike.    > bill >  > --  L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h> >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:16:10 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> % Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 ) Message-ID: <op.s9f7k8sizgicya@hyrrokkin>   H On Fri, 12 May 2006 07:08:08 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   wrote:  . > In article <XO%8g.2$54.545@news.uswest.net>,; > 	"Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes:  >> >>= >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message ( >> news:446395FE.61195AC@teksavvy.com... >>> Malcolm Dunnett wrote:I >>> >    However that same thinking suggested that the 80x86 architecture  >> couldI >>> > never keep up either and was doomed. I'm not a chip designer, but   	 >>> Intel H >>> > certainly seems to have found ways to get those speed enhancements
 >> without' >>> > sacrificing binary compatibility.  >>> K >>> That is because the 8086's instruction set was much simpler than VAX's. J >>> Intel didn't steal Vax tricks for its 8086, they stole Alpha tricks to >>> embed into the 8086. >>>  >>L >> Since the 8086/8088 processors were on the market long before the Alpha   >> wasJ >> even on the drawing board, you must mean Intel "stole" from the Alpha   >> forK >> later processors.  Actually, the 8086 to 80286 were partially based on    >> theD >> IBM mainframe processors.  You could even go so far as to write   >> emulationD >> code on the 8086 that was nearly a one-to-one match for the BAL   >> instruction >> set IBM designed. > L > Which may be what gave us the PC-370.  Boy I wish I had a couple of them   > for  > my collection!!   I Are you sure about that?  My recollection is that iwas a three chip set    made by Motorola based on the 68000.  >  > bill >    ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 13:43:12 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) , Message-ID: <4cjhngF164cq0U1@individual.net>  , In article <4ceikaF15gvheU1@individual.net>,+ 	bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 7 > Does Sue handle the EDU Program among her other task?  > H > I was able to get the VAX back up by rolling in another box and fixingD > the boot flags. It booted to a notice that today is the day all myJ > licenses expire.  Being the last week of classes, could there be a worseI > time for this to happen?  I tried getting new ones from the website but H > nothing come in the mail. I have already looked at the maillogs on theH > server to make sure they weren't getting filtered somewhere.  I really > need to fix this.  > E > And rolling the clock back (would that even work in VMS?) is not an ; > option as it would wreak havoc on the shared filesystems.  >   K As an interesting note, the reason why I have not heard any complaints from I my student users is that apparently the licenses have not expired and are  good until some date in August.   K Now the question is why did it print a "license has expired" message on the G console for the OS and every layered product if, in fact, they are not?   # Anybody care to offer a suggestion?    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:21:21 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) 0 Message-ID: <RJ19g.417$2j5.135@news.cpqcorp.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  M > Now the question is why did it print a "license has expired" message on the I > console for the OS and every layered product if, in fact, they are not?  > % > Anybody care to offer a suggestion?   E    Most likely, you have some number of stale (expired) license PAKs  G around, and some non-stale (current) PAKs.  The license load operation  D tried to load some number of stale PAKs, failed, and also found and C loaded the non-stale license PAKs.  I've OpenVMS boxes that report  G volumes of these errors, simply because I haven't bothered to clean up  I the older (and now stale) license PAKs when I've loaded the updated PAKs.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 09:13:50 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com ) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) B Message-ID: <1147450430.525638.73880@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  F As mentioned by Hoff, you do have multiple licenses, some of which areG from the previous year(s) EDU licenses and have expired.  This is not a F problem, since you have current licenses that are good until August 31A (you can register for a new School-ID and request new licenses on  August 1st).  E If you have two licenses, and one has expired, LICENSE LOAD will load E the valid license, and everything is fine.  However, if will print an C expiration warning for the expired license - which does not  impact  your current licenses.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 16:27:25 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) , Message-ID: <4cjrbdF16dhdrU1@individual.net>  8 In article <hl5962d011t6ub4vsf66k6j1j3mlngb1p5@4ax.com>,  	Pete <None@nospam..com> writes: > A >  Perhaps more than one of each license has been loaded into the H > database. A $license list /brief should tell you if not a help license% > should help. Also take a look here  0 > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_9694.html >   C Well, I did "license list /brief" and it shows an effective date of B 15 Aug 2005 for all my PAKs.  I did a "SHOW License /brief" and itE shows all of them expire on 31 August 2006.  No other licenses showed B up under either command.  But the message sure looked like the one from the Wizard article.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 16:30:56 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) , Message-ID: <4cjri0F16dhdrU2@individual.net>  0 In article <RJ19g.417$2j5.135@news.cpqcorp.net>,/ 	Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > N >> Now the question is why did it print a "license has expired" message on theJ >> console for the OS and every layered product if, in fact, they are not? >>  & >> Anybody care to offer a suggestion? > G >    Most likely, you have some number of stale (expired) license PAKs  I > around, and some non-stale (current) PAKs.  The license load operation  F > tried to load some number of stale PAKs, failed, and also found and E > loaded the non-stale license PAKs.  I've OpenVMS boxes that report  I > volumes of these errors, simply because I haven't bothered to clean up  K > the older (and now stale) license PAKs when I've loaded the updated PAKs.   M OK, I'll assume his is the case even though the commands mentioned previously L didn't seem to show them.  When I get my new PAK's is it a good idea to justJ unload all the old licenses (after FTPing the new ones onto the system :-)G and then load the new ones in order to be sure there are no old license H left?  As long as it works, it's not really a problem, afterall, it onlyI prints annoying messages on the console at boot time and how often do you  reboot a VMS System. :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 16:33:25 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) , Message-ID: <4cjrmlF16dhdrU3@individual.net>  B In article <1147450430.525638.73880@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, 	davidc@montagar.com writes:H > As mentioned by Hoff, you do have multiple licenses, some of which areI > from the previous year(s) EDU licenses and have expired.  This is not a H > problem, since you have current licenses that are good until August 31C > (you can register for a new School-ID and request new licenses on  > August 1st).  B Do I need to register for a new School ID again?  I thought I justE kept using the one I already have?  That might explain why requesting G new licenses returned nothing, although a message would have been nice.    > G > If you have two licenses, and one has expired, LICENSE LOAD will load G > the valid license, and everything is fine.  However, if will print an E > expiration warning for the expired license - which does not  impact  > your current licenses.   G Then the only qusetion would be why can't I see these expired licenses? / Not that I am going to loose any sleep over it!    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:00:51 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) ) Message-ID: <op.s9f6vpa5zgicya@hyrrokkin>   H On Fri, 12 May 2006 09:30:56 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   wrote:  2 > In article <RJ19g.417$2j5.135@news.cpqcorp.net>,1 > 	Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:  >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>J >>> Now the question is why did it print a "license has expired" message  
 >>> on theK >>> console for the OS and every layered product if, in fact, they are not?  >>> ' >>> Anybody care to offer a suggestion?  >>G >>    Most likely, you have some number of stale (expired) license PAKs I >> around, and some non-stale (current) PAKs.  The license load operation F >> tried to load some number of stale PAKs, failed, and also found andE >> loaded the non-stale license PAKs.  I've OpenVMS boxes that report I >> volumes of these errors, simply because I haven't bothered to clean up H >> the older (and now stale) license PAKs when I've loaded the updated   >> PAKs. > F > OK, I'll assume his is the case even though the commands mentioned   > previouslyK > didn't seem to show them.  When I get my new PAK's is it a good idea to    > justJ > unload all the old licenses (after FTPing the new ones onto the system   > :-) I > and then load the new ones in order to be sure there are no old license J > left?  As long as it works, it's not really a problem, afterall, it onlyK > prints annoying messages on the console at boot time and how often do you  > reboot a VMS System. :-)  " Here is an example of the sequence   $ license disable/log ACMS/all $ LICENSE REGISTER ACMS - 
 /ISSUER=DEC - + /AUTHORIZATION=DSPP-V-SEP2005-NOV2006-009 -  /PRODUCER=DEC - 
 /UNITS=0 - /TERMINATION_DATE=1-NOV-2006  -  /ACTIVITY=CONSTANT=100 -& /CHECKSUM=xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx' $ license unload/log ACMS /producer=DEC 1 $ license enable ACMS /auth=DSPP-V-SEP2005-NOV200  >  > bill >    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 07:58:55 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) , Subject: Re: Updated VMS information May 7th3 Message-ID: <SFvs40xUBXGI@eisner.encompasserve.org>   w In article <e405i6$8h2$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: 5 > In article <uiaFDQqh2EMS@eisner.encompasserve.org>, @ > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:  > 9 >>       2) SCS over IP protocols (a plan, not a promise)  > G > With 50 Mb/s DSL available already in some areas, does this mean one  G > could implement a multi-site cluster over such a connection (perhaps  J > with something similar to a VPN)?  Of course, the advertised 50 Mb/s is C > downstream, not upstream, but 10 Mb/s upstream can't be far away.   F    I don't think any qualification tests are available on code that is    planned in the future.   $    Even Alpha doesn't run that fast.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:44:49 +0200 3 From: Michael Unger <spam.to.unger@spamgourmet.com> , Subject: Re: Updated VMS information May 7th, Message-ID: <4cjs7tF16cf97U2@individual.net>  F On 2006-05-11 22:07, "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote:  5 > In article <uiaFDQqh2EMS@eisner.encompasserve.org>, @ > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:  > 9 >>       2) SCS over IP protocols (a plan, not a promise)  > G > With 50 Mb/s DSL available already in some areas, does this mean one  G > could implement a multi-site cluster over such a connection (perhaps  J > with something similar to a VPN)?  Of course, the advertised 50 Mb/s is C > downstream, not upstream, but 10 Mb/s upstream can't be far away. 0                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  H I don't think so, for commercial reasons -- 50 Mb *A*DSL is intended forF home use (IP-TV) with large amounts of data pushed downstream and only- moderate amounts of data "returned" upstream.   H Of course 155 Mb ATM connections have been available for quite some time6 now -- but you probably don't want to pay for that ...   Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. 5 My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 07:56:21 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 3 Subject: Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work? 3 Message-ID: <VjIWBEPG$X$S@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <1147373292.684406.109440@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>, transnet@vrx.net writes: > G > I know the OS was hiding a lot of the overhead, but I always wondered D > how indexed files on VMS actually worked. or is this still "secret > sauce" today?       IS not WAS.  F    There is hashing data stored in the file.  This is possible becauseA    the file system actually knows the difference between data and 
    meta-data.   H    If you block dump the file you can see the meta-data.  If the data is@    all characters you can TYPE the file and get the data on yourE    terminal in logical (not physical) record order without seeing the B    meta-data because TYPE uses the file system to read the records?    sequentialy, it doesn't just copy raw bytes to the terminal.           ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 06:19:37 -0700- From: "Steve Lionel" <steve.lionel@intel.com> 3 Subject: Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work? C Message-ID: <1147439977.774861.260690@d71g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>   F I see I was unclear.  I did not mean that the actual implementation in@ RMS was taken from IBM.  Rather, it was the feature set of IBM'sA implementation that was imitated.  I never heard Xerox CP-V being 
 discussed.   Steve    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:27:24 GMT F From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman)3 Subject: Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work? - Message-ID: <gX09g.52$qq4.17@news.oracle.com>   ) As others have said, it was never secret.   D There was also an RMS-11K for RSX-11M/M+ and RSTS/E that implementedE indexed files for the PDP-11 operating systems.  I don't know if this F pre-dated the VAX, but it quite likely did.  I don't believe there wasD ever any 'inspiration' from MUMPS or other operating systems per-se:C the general idea of having indexed files was certainly one that had E been around for a while, and had been implemented in a number of ways C on a number of operating systems.  The people who first implemented C indexed files within Digital probably got a number of good ideas by D looking at what other people did: this is normal procedure in a wide variety of endevors.  5 (Anyone know if/when TOPS implemented indexed files?)    Bart.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 13:05:36 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)! Subject: [OSDATA] What is OpenVMS * Message-ID: <44648820@news.langstoeger.at>  ? It seems the summary of VMS on OSDATA needs an update again ;-)   # 	http://www.osdata.com/oses/vms.htm    Last version: V7.2-1	 No Itanic 	 and so on    jfi    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.263 ************************                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              D	~<7R*0K&fv$	)kKҁcB[ES!l;c=ǵ!=Ol<m3OSWLu=zb+;><>Qcib'\yJocvgaVO\%]~IN$2tf빥'{Ǖl;/mr8wax@}f__uwGbE&	ew'i@#f<FF(.M)mZ]NwVwbUƣ˴nZjM}z5([˲qpmu'ӤY&
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