1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 13 May 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 264       Contents: Re: Compressing backup file  Re: Compressing backup file  Re: Compressing backup file  Re: Compressing backup file  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium   Re: Millenium Impcon data export, problem with Advanced Server 6.1 (long post) Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)* Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work?* Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work?* Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work?* Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work?* Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:30:15 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)$ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file2 Message-ID: <06051212301512_2020743C@antinode.org>  # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>   L > Well, when I tried it on a large file it ground away for quite some time  
 > and thenM > emitted an error message that the uncompressed file was larger than 4GB.      H    First, as usual, it would be helpful to see the command used, data onB the file(s) being processed, and the actual error message emitted.   > Now F > why wouldn't it first ascertain the file size before attempting to   > compress?   H    Possibly because when it was written, there were no files larger thanC the C RTL functions then available could handle.  Support for large H files has been included in Zip 3 and UnZip 6, not Zip 2.x and UnZip 5.x,E but it's possible that some attempt has been made to provide a useful D error message when the old code gets into trouble.  It's not easy toF identify a file bigger than the maximum size which the C RTL functionsD can return.  My personal opinion is that if you got an error messageE which identified the problem, instead of, for example, only a corrupt F Zip archive output file, then you should consider yourself lucky.  But  that's only my personal opinion.  F    In the latest Zip-UnZip development code, there's probably no checkA for file sizes above the 1TB limit, either, so you may reasonably H anticipate similar problems when the not-yet-released versions are asked+ to exceed their design specifications, too.   @    The Info-ZIP folks are pretty open to code contributions (forA example, most of my suggestions make it in), so I'm sure that any = improvements you could offer would receive due consideration.   6 > >       ftp://ftp.info-zip.org/pub/infozip/OLD/beta/  F    Still my recommendation.  Any defects in large-file handling in theE new code will get considerably more attention than similar defects in G the old code.  (And I believe that the new programs, when built without @ large-file support, do include a few more file size checks where practical.)   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:17:18 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>$ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file0 Message-ID: <Oi49g.433$Bl5.319@news.cpqcorp.net>   Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote:@ >...few of these drives available in or used in North America... > ' > HP (!) DVD840i reads/writes DVD-RAM.    C     I'll wager I have a substantial portion of the DVD-RAM-capable  H drives in the whole region in my possession.  Though it might well seem F remarkable given the relative acceptance of the format in Europe, the I DVD-RAM format simply has not caught on in the North America market.  (I  E also won't hazard a prediction that the HP DVDwriter 840 series will  5 ignite the North American DVD-RAM market, either. :-)   E    For distribution or for personal storage, vanilla CD-R, DVD+R and  H DVD-R media are (far) less costly, and you also don't generally have to D concern yourself with media and drive compatibility, nor with media 
 availability.   I    For local storage (and where I might consider DVD-RAM), there are far  G faster and far more capacious options.  I've some very nice 400 GB USB  H disk drives for cheap, and everybody on the planet has USB thumb drives E -- they're often marketing "gimmes" at various events now, after all.   F    Most folks normally assume a recordable DVD or a CD is a "coaster" H once you use it or if you expect to perform just a few re-writes of the G disk, as is the usual case for folks using a DVD-RW or DVD+RW disk for  G local video, most folks tend to balk at the prices and availability of  H DVD-RAM.   Among the folks that need or want multiple-rewritable random H access storage capabilities, they purchase any of a forest of available F storage options.  And yes, some folks do want and do purchase DVD-RAM  devices.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 14:37:35 -04003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> $ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file. Message-ID: <mddwtcr5btc.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  . Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:  > > And yes, some folks do want and do purchase DVD-RAM devices.  L Those of us with early G4 Macintoshes, for example.  The DVD-media wars were( in full swing, and Apple bet on DVD-RAM.  M But I recently attached a Sony drive to a Firewire port for day-to-day stuff.    --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:02:59 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file9 Message-ID: <PeadnQeya4P9mPjZnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@libcom.com>    Tom Linden wrote: K > On Thu, 11 May 2006 09:41:28 -0700, Steven M. Schweda <sms@antinode.org>   > wrote: > & >> From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> >>H >>> Well I experimented with a large saveset, but had to use gzip, since >>> zip2.31 is$ >>> currently limited to 4GB,  [...] >>I >>    More like 2GB, except on a very old VAX version (with VAX C).  BETA H >> source kits for large-file-capable UnZip 6.00c and Zip 3.0e should be >> available at: > K > Well, when I tried it on a large file it ground away for quite some time  
 > and thenF > emitted an error message that the uncompressed file was larger than  > 4GB.  Now E > why wouldn't it first ascertain the file size before attempting to   > compress?   = Possibly because it was written before there were 4 GB disks?   + Keep in mind the age of some of this stuff.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 10:52:28 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on ItaniumC Message-ID: <1147456348.255326.203480@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>     Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: > In article <1147447532.140625.225140@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: , > >I've been doing nearly daily searches forD > >"rx1600,rx1620,rx2600,rx2620,rx4640" but have yet to see anythingJ > >priced lower than $2500.  Should I be looking for something else or did > >I just miss them? > 3 > Do you want "supported" or "(currently) working"?  >   C I don't care if it's supported as long as it will work with V8.2-1, E V8.3 and maybe V8.4  If a zx2000 will do that then that's good enough  for now.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 10:55:23 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on ItaniumC Message-ID: <1147456523.330022.231340@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: " > Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: > > In article <1147447532.140625.225140@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: . > > >I've been doing nearly daily searches forF > > >"rx1600,rx1620,rx2600,rx2620,rx4640" but have yet to see anythingL > > >priced lower than $2500.  Should I be looking for something else or did > > >I just miss them? > > 5 > > Do you want "supported" or "(currently) working"?  > >  > E > I don't care if it's supported as long as it will work with V8.2-1, G > V8.3 and maybe V8.4  If a zx2000 will do that then that's good enough 
 > for now.  E Of course, even if I did find one I'd have to run Linux on it because G while I may be able to scrounge the VMS install media there is still no   way to get a valid Hobbyist PAK.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:13:04 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium9 Message-ID: <PeadnQaya4MhmvjZnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@libcom.com>     Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: > In article <1147447532.140625.225140@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: , >> I've been doing nearly daily searches forD >> "rx1600,rx1620,rx2600,rx2620,rx4640" but have yet to see anythingJ >> priced lower than $2500.  Should I be looking for something else or did >> I just miss them? > 3 > Do you want "supported" or "(currently) working"?  > G >> I'd be tempted to sign up for a porting class but add to the $2K for E >> the class one week of pay plus room and board and it ends up to be @ >> somewhat more than I can get past the family comptroller. ;-) > A > Money is no problem with the family controller but the time is. L > One week in US means one week vacation less for the family = unacceptable. >   D Would have to wonder.  If you signed up for the class, paid, didn't ) attend, would you still get the computer?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 22:31:03 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <e432b7024js@enews3.newsguy.com>  ( Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:F > Would have to wonder.  If you signed up for the class, paid, didn't + > attend, would you still get the computer?    Interesting question... :^)    	Zane    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:19:22 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ) Subject: Re: Millenium Impcon data export , Message-ID: <4464EDCA.7291405E@teksavvy.com>   m.whitby@gmail.com wrote: J >> The background is that in previous years data has been exported via a a+ > product called Easysoft rms-odbc bridge.      G This bridge, while perhaps no longer functional due to expired licence, A would still have configuration files that might provide the exact D mapping of the fields in RMS records.  Once you know that, there are many ways to get the data out.  F the DDIF converters have the capabvility to export an RMS file to coma@ or tab separated, but I have never gotten it to work because the1 documentation is just not clear (or  incomplete0.   F DATATRIEVE or ALLIN1 can map to an indexed file and extract your data.  7 even DCL can do it, although it won't be too efficient.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 11:27:26 -0700 From: tomarsin2015@comcast.net5 Subject: problem with Advanced Server 6.1 (long post) C Message-ID: <1147458446.337755.130380@d71g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>    Hello = I am getting the following error on a VAX 3100-40 with 32megs A %PWRK-E-ERRGETSRV,  error getting server information for "AFRICA" : -LM-E-ERROR_BAD_NETPA,  the network path cannot be locatedE I reinstalled Pathworks thinking maybe something went wrong.  I tried 
 the following  AFRICA> admin/anal  2   :::::::::: PATHWORKS Error Log Report ::::::::::(            DATE: 12-MAY-2006 12:17:19.05  J    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #1 =3D=3D=3D=- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 11:25:15.84       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   00000142% Event:        Master Process starting  Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000142(X)     J    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #2 =3D=3D=3D=- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 11:25:20.27       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   000001420 Event:        LANman Controller process starting Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000145(X)     J    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #3 =3D=3D=3D=- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 11:25:23.00       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   000001420 Event:        PATHWORKS Monitor process starting Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000147(X)     J    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #4 =3D=3D=3D=- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 11:27:23.58       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   000001425 Event:        LANman Controller process shutting down  Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000145(X) B       Status:       %SYSTEM-S-NORMAL, normal successful completion    J    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #5 =3D=3D=3D=- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 11:33:03.83       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   00000160% Event:        Master Process starting  Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000160(X)     J    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #6 =3D=3D=3D=- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 11:33:06.88       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   000001600 Event:        LANman Controller process starting Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000162(X)     J    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #7 =3D=3D=3D=- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 11:33:10.32       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   000001600 Event:        PATHWORKS Monitor process starting Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000164(X)     J    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #8 =3D=3D=3D=- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 11:34:08.05       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   000001605 Event:        LANman Controller process shutting down  Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000162(X) B       Status:       %SYSTEM-S-NORMAL, normal successful completion    J    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #9 =3D=3D=3D=- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 11:51:32.16       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   00000144% Event:        Master Process starting  Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000144(X)     K    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #10 =3D=3D=3D= - =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 11:51:37.43       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   000001440 Event:        LANman Controller process starting Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000147(X)     K    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #11 =3D=3D=3D= - =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 11:51:40.38       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   000001440 Event:        PATHWORKS Monitor process starting Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000149(X)     K    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #12 =3D=3D=3D= - =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 12:04:17.30       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   00000144% Event:        Master Process starting  Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000144(X)     K    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #13 =3D=3D=3D= - =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 12:04:21.70       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   000001440 Event:        LANman Controller process starting Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000147(X)     K    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #14 =3D=3D=3D= - =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   < Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 12:04:24.84=FF       Node:  AFRICA Process Id:   000001440 Event:        PATHWORKS Monitor process starting Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000149(X)     K    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EVENT #15 =3D=3D=3D= - =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   9 Event Time:   12-MAY-2006 12:06:24.25       Node:  AFRICA  Process Id:   000001445 Event:        LANman Controller process shutting down  Event Source: Master Process Event Class:  Audit          Process Id:   00000147(X) B       Status:       %SYSTEM-S-NORMAL, normal successful completion   AFRICA> D But I donot see anything wrong (or am I looking in the wrong place). >From the Pwrk$lmsrv_africa.log $ $ run/nodebug SYS$SYSTEM:PWRK$BANNERI ************************************************************************* < * Product:  PATHWORKS V6.1-000 for OpenVMS (Advanced Server) * O/S:      OpenVMS VAX V7.31 * H/W:      MicroVAX 3100-30/40 (32 Mb of memory)  * SMP:      No * Cluster:  No- * DECnet:   Version 5 on node LOCAL:.AFRICA:: I ************************************************************************* # $ run/nodebug SYS$SYSTEM:PWRK$LMSRV ; 12-MAY-2006 12:05:00.01 0000014D:003D5040 LIB_CSStartup: CS  initialization initi ated from process 0000014DB 12-MAY-2006 12:05:00.15 0000014D:003D5040 PCS_registernode: AFRICA
 already regis  tered as server node 0B 12-MAY-2006 12:05:00.17 0000014D:003D5040 PCS_registernode: AFRICA
 already regis  tered as server node 0G 12-MAY-2006 12:05:00.18 0000014D:003D5040 PLM_initialize: allocate lock  database  (1048392 bytes)) 12-MAY-2006 12:05:00.18 0000014D:003D5040  PLM_LOCK_DATABASE_ENTRIES: 8370) 12-MAY-2006 12:05:00.18 0000014D:003D5040  PLM_BACKOFF_RETRIES: 15D The strange thing is is that this is the first system I had problems with. All the other nodes @ are okay. I did the same installation on all the other VAXes and Alphas. This system D was able to verified the username and domain with the PDC which is aD VAX 3100-95 running the same version but the 95 is the PDC. Is there something I am doing wrong.  thanks   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:10:12 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4464EBA4.6E140558@teksavvy.com>   etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote:  > G > I'd think it unlikely that HP could get back the edu market with VMS.   F While you are right in reality,  VMS *could* have a good place in .eduF because it is still THE standard for clustering and the students could learn a lot from it.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 17:57:01 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)% Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 , Message-ID: <4ck0jdF16kbhlU1@individual.net>  ) In article <op.s9f7k8sizgicya@hyrrokkin>, & 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:J > On Fri, 12 May 2006 07:08:08 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   > wrote: > / >> In article <XO%8g.2$54.545@news.uswest.net>, < >> 	"Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes: >>>  >>> > >>> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message) >>> news:446395FE.61195AC@teksavvy.com...  >>>> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: J >>>> >    However that same thinking suggested that the 80x86 architecture	 >>> could J >>>> > never keep up either and was doomed. I'm not a chip designer, but  
 >>>> IntelI >>>> > certainly seems to have found ways to get those speed enhancements  >>> without ( >>>> > sacrificing binary compatibility. >>>>L >>>> That is because the 8086's instruction set was much simpler than VAX's.K >>>> Intel didn't steal Vax tricks for its 8086, they stole Alpha tricks to  >>>> embed into the 8086.  >>>> >>> M >>> Since the 8086/8088 processors were on the market long before the Alpha    >>> was K >>> even on the drawing board, you must mean Intel "stole" from the Alpha    >>> for L >>> later processors.  Actually, the 8086 to 80286 were partially based on   >>> the E >>> IBM mainframe processors.  You could even go so far as to write   
 >>> emulation E >>> code on the 8086 that was nearly a one-to-one match for the BAL    >>> instruction  >>> set IBM designed.  >>M >> Which may be what gave us the PC-370.  Boy I wish I had a couple of them    >> for >> my collection!! > K > Are you sure about that?  My recollection is that iwas a three chip set    > made! > by Motorola based on the 68000.   E I don't know, I never got to see the inside of one and I only saw the E outside once. :-)  I always assumed it was pure IBM.  But, I've been  
 wrong before.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:15:20 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 , Message-ID: <4464ECD7.5FA66072@teksavvy.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:F >    While we were all surpised that Intel could keep x86 speeds up toE >    compete with RISC, it became quite clear that DEC could not keep  >    VAX speeds up.  > E >    When a group I know bought a VAX 9000, DEC was claiming that the D >    CPU modules in it were "basically RISC" without explaining whatB >    that meant.  One of the engineers considered the speed of theF >    $1M VAX 9000 and replied that it would keep up with his $30K UNIX >    RISC workstation.    L The problem wasn't the speed of the VAX, it was its price relative to speed.  B DEC was stuck in "protect the installed base" mentality where theyD didn't want to make a 30k system provide the same functionlaity as aH system that sold for a million bucks because theyr feared there would be too great a revenu loss.  G Consider the many times DEC_apoliogists here came and asked if we could G garantee that a lower proce would generate sufficient higher volumes to " make-up for loss revenu per sale ?  G Intel didn't have that mentality and they forged ahead, bringing prices 4 down to open new markets and boost volumes big time.    G You'd think that HP would have learned from the mistakes of Digital and G Compaq. But if, within the VMS group, there are many who really believe D that it shoudl carter only to a high end niche and that it stands noH chance against competitors in the midrange and small business server andH workstation market, then obviously, no pressure will be put on HP by theH VMS folks to allow VMS to flourish in markets it used to be very good at before Palmer killed them off.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:27:15 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> % Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 9 Message-ID: <u_6dncAjofSMlvjZnZ2dnUVZ_v-dnZ2d@libcom.com>    Bill Todd wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: J >> On Thu, 11 May 2006 12:50:46 -0700, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> 	 >> wrote:  >> >>> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >  > ...  > ) >>>   I'm certainly not suggesting anyone I >>>> would ever do it, but I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to build a C >>>> VAX chip today ( using all the latest and greatest tricks and   >>>> processes ); >>>> that would be competetive with the x86 chips of today.  >>> F >>> People like Mashey think not.  x86 is a very simple CISC compared J >>> with VAX, and the pipelining optimizations applicable to x86 and used H >>> in modern x86 implementations would not work nearly as well for the J >>> VAX ISA due to its complexity (for starters, being a 3-address rather * >>> than mostly a 1-address architecture). >> Bill, >>A >> When Mashey wrote the article you couldn't put half a billion   >> transistors on a  >> chip. > I > True enough.  But he reiterated a similar view within the past year in  G > comp.arch, when you *could* put half a billion transistors on a chip.   C I shouldn't get into a re-hash of old arguments, but what the hell?   H What this discussion entirely misses is that not everyone needs to have F a bleeding edge CPU.  For example, the people today still running old + VAX systems, because they still do the job.   E So Ok, lets accept that VAX would not have been the speed demon that  E Alpha was capable of.  What could be done is provide newer, cheaper,  I available VAX systems for those who didn't need more.  Old stuff breaks.  C   New stuff would probably keep people on support, and the cost of  I providing support with new and available and more reliable systems would   be less.  More profits.   H What DEC could have done was develop Alpha for those who needed it, and G continued to provide VAX systems to those who could use them.  Keep in  G mind it's much easier to continue to run a solution that works than to  " find and implement a new solution.  H What DEC did do was attempt to move VAX people to Alpha, and one of the F incentives was VAX systems costing much more than more powerful Alpha I systems.  I seem to remember an AlphaServer 1000 selling for about $18K,  I while a MicroVAX 3100 model 98 sold for about $37K.  A real incentive to  C say "fuck you DEC" and buy PCs.  That's when PCs cost thousands of  F dollars.  Price that MicroVAX at or below $5000 and sell many of them " would have been a better strategy.  2 Even today, there are jobs the VAX could be doing.   Old arguments.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:55:50 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> % Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 ) Message-ID: <op.s9gnbciizgicya@hyrrokkin>   G On Fri, 12 May 2006 15:27:15 -0700, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>    wrote:  4 > Even today, there are jobs the VAX could be doing.   and are.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 19:42:11 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>% Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 G Message-ID: <j9adnYIYSK_IgPjZnZ2dnUVZ_tudnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    Dave Froble wrote:   ...   J > What this discussion entirely misses is that not everyone needs to have H > a bleeding edge CPU.  For example, the people today still running old - > VAX systems, because they still do the job.   E Indeed.  And why on Earth should DEC have devoted major resources to  @ creating new versions of these old systems when the old systems . *themselves* were adequate for those purposes?   > G > So Ok, lets accept that VAX would not have been the speed demon that  G > Alpha was capable of.  What could be done is provide newer, cheaper,  7 > available VAX systems for those who didn't need more.   G I think you may have overlooked the rather direct relationship between  C per-processor performance and overall system cost (and/or volumes).   G For example, AMD is thriving mightily these days in large part because  H its Opteron performance allows people to do significant work with 1- to H 4-socket systems on jobs which used to require 'large' (16- to at least D 32-socket) systems (don't forget that a 4-socket Opteron system now  contains 8 cores).  I What that means is that the only areas in which 'newer' VAXen would have  E been cheaper than Alphas were in the single-socket space, because as  E soon as you required more performance than a single-socket VAX could  H provide you'd be able to purchase a single-socket Alpha system for less A than an equivalent multi-socket VAX system.  This would not have  H provided nearly enough revenue to fund *any* new VAX development, which H would have meant that per-core VAX performance would have fallen behind E Alpha performance even faster (and, as noted below, that VAX pricing  I would have become static while Alpha pricing enjoyed the benefits of new  @ and more cost-effective development, such that before long even A single-socket Alpha systems would have become significantly less  $ expensive than single-socket VAXen).  I So what DEC did was freeze VAX development but continue to sell them for  G a full 8 years after Alpha appeared - with plenty of warning such that  E people who wanted to run VAXen even longer could stock up before the  F well ran dry.  Anything else would have made no business sense at all H (though better support for running VAX binaries and entire environments G on Alpha might have - had DEC and its successors really been committed   to Alpha and VMS, that is).    ...   : > What DEC did do was attempt to move VAX people to Alpha,  E It's expensive enough just supporting defunct product lines, without  H perpetuating them unnecessarily.  Though continuing availability of VAX I for a full 8 years after Alpha appeared (with VMS VAX support for a good  G many years longer) suggests that DEC was not attempting to move people  & all that forcefully, or all that fast.     and one of theH > incentives was VAX systems costing much more than more powerful Alpha 
 > systems.  G Did those VAX systems actually increase in price after Alpha appeared,  F or did their prices simply remain the same as new development allowed I Alpha prices to decrease?  If the latter, you don't seem to have a great  E deal to complain about (save perhaps, again, whatever DEC could have  5 done to facilitate a more transparent move to Alpha).      - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 17:59:02 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) , Message-ID: <4ck0n6F16kbhlU2@individual.net>  ) In article <op.s9f6vpa5zgicya@hyrrokkin>, & 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:J > On Fri, 12 May 2006 09:30:56 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   > wrote: > 3 >> In article <RJ19g.417$2j5.135@news.cpqcorp.net>, 2 >> 	Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes: >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> K >>>> Now the question is why did it print a "license has expired" message    >>>> on the L >>>> console for the OS and every layered product if, in fact, they are not? >>>>( >>>> Anybody care to offer a suggestion? >>> H >>>    Most likely, you have some number of stale (expired) license PAKsJ >>> around, and some non-stale (current) PAKs.  The license load operationG >>> tried to load some number of stale PAKs, failed, and also found and F >>> loaded the non-stale license PAKs.  I've OpenVMS boxes that reportJ >>> volumes of these errors, simply because I haven't bothered to clean upI >>> the older (and now stale) license PAKs when I've loaded the updated   	 >>> PAKs.  >>G >> OK, I'll assume his is the case even though the commands mentioned   
 >> previously L >> didn't seem to show them.  When I get my new PAK's is it a good idea to   >> just K >> unload all the old licenses (after FTPing the new ones onto the system    >> :-)J >> and then load the new ones in order to be sure there are no old licenseK >> left?  As long as it works, it's not really a problem, afterall, it only L >> prints annoying messages on the console at boot time and how often do you >> reboot a VMS System. :-)  > $ > Here is an example of the sequence >   > $ license disable/log ACMS/all > $ LICENSE REGISTER ACMS -  > /ISSUER=DEC - - > /AUTHORIZATION=DSPP-V-SEP2005-NOV2006-009 -  > /PRODUCER=DEC -  > /UNITS=0 -! > /TERMINATION_DATE=1-NOV-2006  -  > /ACTIVITY=CONSTANT=100 -( > /CHECKSUM=xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) > $ license unload/log ACMS /producer=DEC 3 > $ license enable ACMS /auth=DSPP-V-SEP2005-NOV200   F The licenses come as a great big file that you can just run.  Couldn't8 I just do a "license unload *" and then run the new one?   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 11:10:40 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> ) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) B Message-ID: <1147457440.713972.59300@d71g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:+ > In article <op.s9f6vpa5zgicya@hyrrokkin>, ( > 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:J > > On Fri, 12 May 2006 09:30:56 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>
 > > wrote: > > 5 > >> In article <RJ19g.417$2j5.135@news.cpqcorp.net>, 4 > >> 	Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes: > >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>> K > >>>> Now the question is why did it print a "license has expired" message 
 > >>>> on the N > >>>> console for the OS and every layered product if, in fact, they are not? > >>>>* > >>>> Anybody care to offer a suggestion? > >>> J > >>>    Most likely, you have some number of stale (expired) license PAKsL > >>> around, and some non-stale (current) PAKs.  The license load operationI > >>> tried to load some number of stale PAKs, failed, and also found and H > >>> loaded the non-stale license PAKs.  I've OpenVMS boxes that reportL > >>> volumes of these errors, simply because I haven't bothered to clean upI > >>> the older (and now stale) license PAKs when I've loaded the updated  > >>> PAKs.  > >>G > >> OK, I'll assume his is the case even though the commands mentioned  > >> previously L > >> didn't seem to show them.  When I get my new PAK's is it a good idea to	 > >> just K > >> unload all the old licenses (after FTPing the new ones onto the system  > >> :-)L > >> and then load the new ones in order to be sure there are no old licenseM > >> left?  As long as it works, it's not really a problem, afterall, it only N > >> prints annoying messages on the console at boot time and how often do you > >> reboot a VMS System. :-)  > > & > > Here is an example of the sequence > > " > > $ license disable/log ACMS/all > > $ LICENSE REGISTER ACMS -  > > /ISSUER=DEC - / > > /AUTHORIZATION=DSPP-V-SEP2005-NOV2006-009 -  > > /PRODUCER=DEC -  > > /UNITS=0 -# > > /TERMINATION_DATE=1-NOV-2006  -  > > /ACTIVITY=CONSTANT=100 -* > > /CHECKSUM=xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx+ > > $ license unload/log ACMS /producer=DEC 5 > > $ license enable ACMS /auth=DSPP-V-SEP2005-NOV200  > H > The licenses come as a great big file that you can just run.  Couldn't: > I just do a "license unload *" and then run the new one? >   > That would be a nice enhancement, but unfortunately it doesn'tE currently work that way.  AFAIK there is no global delete (other than F trashing your license database file and creating a new one) and if youF just unload the license then you get the same expired message the next: time you reload the database either manually on on reboot.  C   If you are replacing all of the licenses then  maybe deleting the C license file would work.  Just rename it (for backup) and then do a E "License create" to make a new empty file and run the command file to G install your new licenses.  You will probably have to copy and edit the B license file to amek the "License load " commands for each productG since I'm betting the file you get doesn't actually do the load command 9 and the new license will not be active until it's loaded.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 11:31:51 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> ) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) C Message-ID: <1147458711.188238.214820@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   E Well, I'm an idiot.  Forget what I said before.  At least in V8.2 you D CAN do a "License Delete *" and it will delete all of your licenses.E It looks like they are not unloaded, however. The file I have for the F Hobbyist PAKs when executed will repopulate the license database.  The@ new licenses won't get loaded until you do it manually or have aD reboot.  You can do a manual global reload with the command "LicenseG load /unload" which will, for each product in the database,  unload any E license for the product before loading the most recent version of the  license for that product.    ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2006 18:47:12 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) , Message-ID: <4ck3hgF1642uaU1@individual.net>  + In article <e42khe$ogj$1@naig.caltech.edu>, * 	David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes: > Hoff Hoffman wrote:  >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>  I >>> Now the question is why did it print a "license has expired" message  
 >>> on theK >>> console for the OS and every layered product if, in fact, they are not?  >>> ' >>> Anybody care to offer a suggestion?  >>  G >>   Most likely, you have some number of stale (expired) license PAKs  J >> around, and some non-stale (current) PAKs.  The license load operation G >> tried to load some number of stale PAKs, failed, and also found and  F >> loaded the non-stale license PAKs.  I've OpenVMS boxes that report J >> volumes of these errors, simply because I haven't bothered to clean up L >> the older (and now stale) license PAKs when I've loaded the updated PAKs. > E > That's my guess too.  Back in the day when we still had VMS systems D > and the CSLG here I was in the habit of creating a completely new I > license database for each year's set of PAKs (and then copying over the F > few other PAKs on those systems.)  Before I started doing this thereK > were several years worth of virtually identical PAKs on the system, most  E > of them expired, and it was very confusing.  If my fuzzy memory is  I > correct, back when we had multiple year's of CSLG's on the one system,  ; > when PAKs were dropped from the CSLG this left an expired A > PAK "exposed", and the expiration messages would appear for it.  > B > LightBulb!  Did the PAK's change vendor strings after HP bought B > Compaq???  If so the system may be complaining about all of your1 > expired Compaq PAKs and running on the HP ones!   I This system hasn't been around nearly long enough to remember Compaq. :-) G It has at most 2 sets of licenses.  But I suspect if we are still using H VAXen next semester (this Fall!) I will delete everything and repopulateC all the licenses from scratch.  But, hopefully, maybe I can move to G Alphas by then.  I assume if the Alphas have a CI card in them they can   use the the same storage arrays.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:35:26 -0700 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> ) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) + Message-ID: <e42khe$ogj$1@naig.caltech.edu>    Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > H >> Now the question is why did it print a "license has expired" message 	 >> on the J >> console for the OS and every layered product if, in fact, they are not? >>& >> Anybody care to offer a suggestion? > F >   Most likely, you have some number of stale (expired) license PAKs I > around, and some non-stale (current) PAKs.  The license load operation  F > tried to load some number of stale PAKs, failed, and also found and E > loaded the non-stale license PAKs.  I've OpenVMS boxes that report  I > volumes of these errors, simply because I haven't bothered to clean up  K > the older (and now stale) license PAKs when I've loaded the updated PAKs.   C That's my guess too.  Back in the day when we still had VMS systems B and the CSLG here I was in the habit of creating a completely new G license database for each year's set of PAKs (and then copying over the D few other PAKs on those systems.)  Before I started doing this thereI were several years worth of virtually identical PAKs on the system, most  C of them expired, and it was very confusing.  If my fuzzy memory is  G correct, back when we had multiple year's of CSLG's on the one system,  9 when PAKs were dropped from the CSLG this left an expired ? PAK "exposed", and the expiration messages would appear for it.   @ LightBulb!  Did the PAK's change vendor strings after HP bought @ Compaq???  If so the system may be complaining about all of your/ expired Compaq PAKs and running on the HP ones!    Regards,   David Mathog   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 19:49:41 GMT 7 From: John Malmberg <malmberg@dskwld.zko.hp.compaq.dec> ) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) 0 Message-ID: <pF59g.438$ir5.319@news.cpqcorp.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: >  > H > The licenses come as a great big file that you can just run.  Couldn't: > I just do a "license unload *" and then run the new one? > . http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~malmberg/dcl/  7 Download lmf_cleanup.txt as lmf_cleanup.com and run it.   E It will backup the license database, and then remove all the expired  	 licenses.   H [Yes, I know that there is a simple enhancement to speed up the command C procedure a little bit, but this works, and I have not had time to    update this download directory.]   -John ! malmberg@dskwld.zko.hp.compaq.dec  Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 00:31:27 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) , Message-ID: <4cknmvF15g8ciU1@individual.net>  0 In article <pF59g.438$ir5.319@news.cpqcorp.net>,: 	John Malmberg <malmberg@dskwld.zko.hp.compaq.dec> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>   >>  I >> The licenses come as a great big file that you can just run.  Couldn't ; >> I just do a "license unload *" and then run the new one?  >>  0 > http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~malmberg/dcl/ > 9 > Download lmf_cleanup.txt as lmf_cleanup.com and run it.  > G > It will backup the license database, and then remove all the expired   > licenses.  > J > [Yes, I know that there is a simple enhancement to speed up the command E > procedure a little bit, but this works, and I have not had time to  " > update this download directory.]  " I'll definitely be grabbing that!!   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 18:05:57 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com ) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) B Message-ID: <1147482357.599181.13510@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  E You will need a nwe School ID, and we're going to address the message  issue...  E You should be able to see the expired licenses.  In fact, the LICENSE A LOAD command should tell you the product and authorization of the  expired license:  E %LICENSE-W-TERM, OPENVMS-HOBBYIST DECUS-USA-243848-409967 License has 
 terminated  F In this case, the license product OPENVMS-HOBBYIST, with authorization@ string of DECUS-USA-243848-409967 has expired.  You can see this license using the command   B $ LICENSE LIST/FULL OPENVMS-HOBBYIST /AUTH=DECUS-USA-243848-409967   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 21:16:11 -0500 6 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net>) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) 0 Message-ID: <4465416B.34A68469@spam.comcast.net>   John Malmberg wrote: >  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >  > > J > > The licenses come as a great big file that you can just run.  Couldn't< > > I just do a "license unload *" and then run the new one? > > 0 > http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~malmberg/dcl/ > 9 > Download lmf_cleanup.txt as lmf_cleanup.com and run it.  > F > It will backup the license database, and then remove all the expired > licenses.  > I > [Yes, I know that there is a simple enhancement to speed up the command D > procedure a little bit, but this works, and I have not had time to" > update this download directory.]   I usually just:   < $ rename lmf$license .'f$cvtime("''f$time()'-367-",,"year")' $ license create $ @paks.com   F Seems to work just fine except for the first week or so of January. MyG PAKs generally renew in late Winter or early Spring; so, that works for  me.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:46:36 +0100 ( From: Paul Williams <paul@frixxon.co.uk>3 Subject: Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work? : Message-ID: <pan.2006.05.12.17.46.35.577678@frixxon.co.uk>  4 On Thu, 11 May 2006 15:41:48 -0400, Bill Todd wrote:  H > The 'sauce' was never secret:  DEC did indexed file internal structureC > presentations starting in the late '70s.  There's probably a .pdf G > presentation (ISTR one done in the late '80s or early '90s) available 0 > somewhere still today, but I don't know where.  H Manx shows that "RMS Structures and Utilities on VAX/VMS: Student Guide"
 is online:  $ http://vt100.net/manx/details/1,3769     --   Paul   ------------------------------    Date: 12 May 2006 14:48:01 -04003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> 3 Subject: Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work? . Message-ID: <mddu07v5bby.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  H lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman) writes:  7 > (Anyone know if/when TOPS implemented indexed files?)   K Just a reminder that there is no such thing as "TOPS".  Tops-10 and Tops-20 A shared exactly zero code base, file system design, or world view.   7 But both operating systems fielded RMS implementations.    --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:43:36 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>3 Subject: Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work? G Message-ID: <6JydnSCYZ7DESvnZnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    Alan Greig wrote:  >  >  > Bart Z. Lederman wrote:  >>8 >> (Anyone know if/when TOPS implemented indexed files?) > I > RMS-20 certainly existed. Think it came somewhere about the TOPS-20 V4  . > timeframe but could have been earlier. Bill?  G RMS-20 was developed (largely by Seth Cohen, I think) in parallel with  F RMS-11, and IIRC shipped in the late '70s (though possibly later than D RMS-11. which was first released in January, 1977).  I don't recall D whether it supported indexed files or just sequential (and possibly I relative), but I do remember it as being relatively a shoe-string effort  G compared with those on the 11 and VAX (largely to promote a measure of  C program and data portability, possibly only for simpler stuff that  E didn't require indexed-file support - which later was the motivation  G behind the quasi-official limited RMS implementation on RT-11 as well).    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:50:03 -0400 + From: Steve Matzura <number6@speakeasy.net> 3 Subject: Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work? 8 Message-ID: <j9p962tqoe7d6udgdjdrq9sj63abm7i0ap@4ax.com>  6 On 11 May 2006 11:48:12 -0700, transnet@vrx.net wrote:  9 >My favorite has always been the VMS "indexed" file type.  > F >I know the OS was hiding a lot of the overhead, but I always wonderedC >how indexed files on VMS actually worked. or is this still "secret  >sauce" today?  C Whatever it is and however it works, it goes back further than VMS. D I've been using indexed files since RSTS days in the late 70's, whenC you had to link the RMS libraries, one for each file type (indexed, B relative and sequential) into the running image or "task" with the< "task-builder," what was the RSTS linker.  There were objectF descriptor language (ODL) files to optimize the loading of the runningC code because before VMS you only had a 28Kword workspace--heck, the A machines running RSTS were only 510K, and what they did with that E 512K, not to mention the 60KB slicing, was quite amazing.  I remember E seeing DATATRIEVE for the first time in 1979-80 and marvelling at how B somebody came up with a program that could read indexed files thatF didn't have to be compiled and task-built with the file record mapping hard-coded in the program.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:32:59 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>3 Subject: Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work? = Message-ID: <s_ednRGH38BgbfnZRVn-qw@metrocastcablevision.com>    Steve Lionel wrote: H > I see I was unclear.  I did not mean that the actual implementation inB > RMS was taken from IBM.  Rather, it was the feature set of IBM's# > implementation that was imitated.   G Indeed, that was not clear - so I inferred that you were responding to  B the question which was asked (which involved the details of RMS's 2 indexed-file implementation, not its feature set).   - bill   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.264 ************************