1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 13 May 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 265       Contents: Re: Compressing backup file  Re: Compressing backup file  Re: Compressing backup file  Re: Compressing backup file  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium   Re: Millenium Impcon data export Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: TCPIP 5.4 anti-spam   Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)# Re: Updated VMS information May 7th   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 06:40:53 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> $ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file) Message-ID: <op.s9hsafo1zgicya@hyrrokkin>   I On Fri, 12 May 2006 19:52:47 -0700, Phaeton <phaeton@iinet.net.au> wrote:    > Tom Linden wrote: : >> On Fri, 12 May 2006 10:30:15 -0700, Steven M. Schweda   >> <sms@antinode.org> wrote: >>' >>> From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  >>> J >>>> Well, when I tried it on a large file it ground away for quite some  	 >>>> time 
 >>>> and then J >>>> emitted an error message that the uncompressed file was larger than  	 >>>> 4GB.  >>> K >>>    First, as usual, it would be helpful to see the command used, data    >>> onF >>> the file(s) being processed, and the actual error message emitted.I >>  Couldn't remember the exact msg still groggy from surgery yesterday   
 >> and typing 6 >> with three usable fingers on left, so reproduced it > [...snip...] > : > 	Get well, Tom, and let's hope your hand(s) heal soon...8 > 	Until then, here is a bit of humour to cheer you up : >  > ---- > / >                         THE STORY OF CREATION % >                                  or , >                            THE MYTH OF URK > G >     In the beginning there was data.  The data was without form and    > null, and J >   darkness was upon the face of the console; and the Spirit of IBM was   > movingK >   over the face of the market.  And DEC said, "Let there be registers";    > and there K >   were registers.  And DEC saw that they carried; and DEC separated the    > data from H >   the instructions.  DEC called the data Stack, and the instructions  
 > they called F >   Code.  And there was evening and there was morning, one interrupt. > L >     And DEC said, "Let there be a word in the midst of the data, and let   > itF >   separate the data from the registers." And DEC made the word and   > separated the I >   data which were under the Stack from the registers which were above   
 > the memory. L >   And it was so.  And DEC called the memory Core.  And there was evening   > and * >   there was morning, a second interrupt. > H >     And DEC said, "Let the data under the stack be gathered together  
 > into oneH >   place, and let partitions appear." And it was so.  DEC defined the   > partitionsK >   as 4Kw, and the data that were gathered together they called BLOCKS.    	 > And DEC J >   saw that it was good.  And DEC said, "Let the CPU put for addresses,  
 > pointersJ >   yielding bytes, and structures bearing words in which there is data,   > eachI >   according to its type, upon the partition." And it was so.  And DEC   
 > saw that no G >   bits stuck.  And there was evening and there was morning, a third    > interrupt. > I >     And DEC said, "Let there be lights upon the console of the CPU to   
 > separateD >   the addresses from the data; and let them be for signs and for   > diagnostics and J >   for blinking.  And it was so.  And DEC made the two great Buses, the  	 > greater K >   Bus to rule the CPU, and the lesser Bus to rule the peripherals; they   
 > made theG >   peri- pherals also.  And DEC set them on line to give data to the    > CPU.  And DEC K >   saw that it was good.  And there was evening and there was morning, a    > fourth >   interrupt. > L >     And DEC said, "Let the Bus bring forth swarms of data, and let stack  
 > pointersL >   fly above the data across the partitions of the Core." So Bell created   > the K >   great C monsters.c and every a.out that runs, with data swarming, and    > every L >   pointer according to its type." And Bell saw that is it was good.  And   > BellL >   blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and fork and fill the partitions in   > the L >   Core, and let processes multiply." And there was evening and there was  
 > morning, >   a fifth interrupt. > I >     And Bell said, "Let there be UNIX." And it was so.  And Bell made    > the errorsL >   of the Bus according to their kinds and the faults of memory according  
 > to theirJ >   kinds, and everything that core-dumps upon the disk according to its   > error.L >   And Bell saw that it was good.  Then Bell said, "Let us make debuggers  	 > for the D >   image; and let them have dominion over the a.out, and over the   > breakpoints, andK >   over every address that sits upon the stack." So Bell created parity;    > in theL >   image of Core they created it; even and odd they created it.  And Bell  	 > checked J >   it and saw that it was good.  And Bell said of UNIX "Behold, We have   > given you L >   every pointer yielding objects, and every identifier with value in its  
 > address;K >   you shall have them for food.  And to every device on the Bus, and to    > every D >   program in the bin, and to everything that creeps on the disk,   > everything that L >   has the mode of allocation, We have given inodes to check." And it was  
 > so.  AndF >   Bell saw everything that they had made, and behold, it was a lot  
 > better that C >   RSTS/E.  And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth    > interrupt. > J >     Thus the hardware and the software were finished, and all the host   > of system 1 >   calls.  On the seventh interrupt, it crashed.  > K >     [Credit for this piece, originally written in 1978 at Reed College,   	 > goes to H >   Rico Tudor (now at Mark Williams Co.), who used 'ed' global change  
 > commands on - >   the original (accurate) text of Genesis.]  >  > G >                                                      Cheers,   Csaba  > G That is clever,  but I didn't know that  Bell had any interest in Unix. F He gave Cutler the mandate to develop what became VMS and I also don'tJ think thr references to C are accurate.  I have in my files the original   licence J signed by Bell for PL/I Jan 1978 IIRC and unless I am mistaken the first C@ on the VAX used the PL/I code, and that would have been ca. 1980G > --------------------------------------------------------------------- H >   CSABA I. HARANGOZO  |d|i|g|i|t|a|l|  phaeton at iinet dot net dot auG > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >     EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]: > ? >   Rectitude (n.), the formal, dignified demeanor assumed by a 7 >      proctologist immediately before he examines you.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 16:22:28 GMT % From: Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net> $ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file3 Message-ID: <slrne6c1u4.cl2.rivie@stench.no.domain>   1 On 2006-05-13, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote: I > That is clever,  but I didn't know that  Bell had any interest in Unix.   A I suspect the reference to Bell is to Bell Labs, not Gordon Bell.   H > He gave Cutler the mandate to develop what became VMS and I also don'tL > think thr references to C are accurate.  I have in my files the original  	 > licence L > signed by Bell for PL/I Jan 1978 IIRC and unless I am mistaken the first CB > on the VAX used the PL/I code, and that would have been ca. 1980  B Given that it refers to memory being divided into 4K partitions, I3 suspect it's talking about the PDP-11, not the VAX.  --  
 roger ivie rivie@ridgenet.net   ------------------------------    Date: 13 May 2006 09:25:57 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> $ Subject: Re: Compressing backup fileC Message-ID: <1147537557.740157.223840@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Tom Linden wrote: K > On Fri, 12 May 2006 19:52:47 -0700, Phaeton <phaeton@iinet.net.au> wrote:  >  > > Tom Linden wrote: : > >> On Fri, 12 May 2006 10:30:15 -0700, Steven M. Schweda > >> <sms@antinode.org> wrote: > >>) > >>> From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  > >>> J > >>>> Well, when I tried it on a large file it ground away for quite some > >>>> time  > >>>> and then J > >>>> emitted an error message that the uncompressed file was larger than > >>>> 4GB.  > >>> K > >>>    First, as usual, it would be helpful to see the command used, data  > >>> onH > >>> the file(s) being processed, and the actual error message emitted.I > >>  Couldn't remember the exact msg still groggy from surgery yesterday  > >> and typing 8 > >> with three usable fingers on left, so reproduced it > > [...snip...] > > < > > 	Get well, Tom, and let's hope your hand(s) heal soon...: > > 	Until then, here is a bit of humour to cheer you up : > >  > > ---- > > 1 > >                         THE STORY OF CREATION ' > >                                  or . > >                            THE MYTH OF URK > > G > >     In the beginning there was data.  The data was without form and 
 > > null, and J > >   darkness was upon the face of the console; and the Spirit of IBM was
 > > movingK > >   over the face of the market.  And DEC said, "Let there be registers"; 
 > > and there K > >   were registers.  And DEC saw that they carried; and DEC separated the 
 > > data from H > >   the instructions.  DEC called the data Stack, and the instructions > > they called H > >   Code.  And there was evening and there was morning, one interrupt. > > L > >     And DEC said, "Let there be a word in the midst of the data, and let > > itF > >   separate the data from the registers." And DEC made the word and > > separated the I > >   data which were under the Stack from the registers which were above  > > the memory. L > >   And it was so.  And DEC called the memory Core.  And there was evening > > and , > >   there was morning, a second interrupt. > > H > >     And DEC said, "Let the data under the stack be gathered together > > into oneH > >   place, and let partitions appear." And it was so.  DEC defined the > > partitionsJ > >   as 4Kw, and the data that were gathered together they called BLOCKS. > > And DEC J > >   saw that it was good.  And DEC said, "Let the CPU put for addresses, > > pointersJ > >   yielding bytes, and structures bearing words in which there is data, > > eachI > >   according to its type, upon the partition." And it was so.  And DEC  > > saw that no G > >   bits stuck.  And there was evening and there was morning, a third  > > interrupt. > > I > >     And DEC said, "Let there be lights upon the console of the CPU to  > > separateD > >   the addresses from the data; and let them be for signs and for > > diagnostics and J > >   for blinking.  And it was so.  And DEC made the two great Buses, the > > greater K > >   Bus to rule the CPU, and the lesser Bus to rule the peripherals; they  > > made theG > >   peri- pherals also.  And DEC set them on line to give data to the  > > CPU.  And DEC K > >   saw that it was good.  And there was evening and there was morning, a 
 > > fourth > >   interrupt. > > L > >     And DEC said, "Let the Bus bring forth swarms of data, and let stack > > pointersL > >   fly above the data across the partitions of the Core." So Bell created > > the K > >   great C monsters.c and every a.out that runs, with data swarming, and 	 > > every L > >   pointer according to its type." And Bell saw that is it was good.  And > > BellL > >   blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and fork and fill the partitions in > > the L > >   Core, and let processes multiply." And there was evening and there was > > morning, > >   a fifth interrupt. > > I > >     And Bell said, "Let there be UNIX." And it was so.  And Bell made  > > the errorsL > >   of the Bus according to their kinds and the faults of memory according > > to theirJ > >   kinds, and everything that core-dumps upon the disk according to its
 > > error.L > >   And Bell saw that it was good.  Then Bell said, "Let us make debuggers > > for the D > >   image; and let them have dominion over the a.out, and over the > > breakpoints, andK > >   over every address that sits upon the stack." So Bell created parity; 
 > > in theL > >   image of Core they created it; even and odd they created it.  And Bell > > checked J > >   it and saw that it was good.  And Bell said of UNIX "Behold, We have
 > > given you L > >   every pointer yielding objects, and every identifier with value in its > > address;K > >   you shall have them for food.  And to every device on the Bus, and to 	 > > every D > >   program in the bin, and to everything that creeps on the disk, > > everything that L > >   has the mode of allocation, We have given inodes to check." And it was > > so.  AndF > >   Bell saw everything that they had made, and behold, it was a lot > > better that C > >   RSTS/E.  And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth  > > interrupt. > > J > >     Thus the hardware and the software were finished, and all the host
 > > of system 3 > >   calls.  On the seventh interrupt, it crashed.  > > K > >     [Credit for this piece, originally written in 1978 at Reed College,  > > goes to H > >   Rico Tudor (now at Mark Williams Co.), who used 'ed' global change > > commands on / > >   the original (accurate) text of Genesis.]  > >  > > I > >                                                      Cheers,   Csaba  > > I > That is clever,  but I didn't know that  Bell had any interest in Unix. H > He gave Cutler the mandate to develop what became VMS and I also don'tJ > think thr references to C are accurate.  I have in my files the original	 > licence L > signed by Bell for PL/I Jan 1978 IIRC and unless I am mistaken the first CB > on the VAX used the PL/I code, and that would have been ca. 1980  ? I believe Bell in this context refers to Bell Laboratories, the G subsidiary/division of Western Electric (ie Bell Telephone) from whence ? Kernigan, Ritchie, et al produced UNIX and C.  You're obviously F thinking of Gordon Bell, the employee at Digital Equipment Corporation% - something completey different.  ;-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:56:18 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> $ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file) Message-ID: <op.s9h1b4aazgicya@hyrrokkin>   > On Sat, 13 May 2006 09:25:57 -0700, johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com  ! <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote:   A > I believe Bell in this context refers to Bell Laboratories, the I > subsidiary/division of Western Electric (ie Bell Telephone) from whence A > Kernigan, Ritchie, et al produced UNIX and C.  You're obviously H > thinking of Gordon Bell, the employee at Digital Equipment Corporation" > - something completey different.  5 Of course, Shouldn't try to think while on Vicodin:-)    ------------------------------    Date: 13 May 2006 09:34:36 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4465a82c$1@news.langstoeger.at>  c In article <PeadnQaya4MhmvjZnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: E >Would have to wonder.  If you signed up for the class, paid, didn't  * >attend, would you still get the computer?  D Don't know. Would be nice to hear. But the next step for attending aI porting class is being a DSPP company member (means having an application 2 to port) and I'm only an DSPP individual member...   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 13 May 2006 06:13:49 -0700  From: banditstan2000@yahoo.co.uk  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on ItaniumC Message-ID: <1147526029.090295.181880@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Hi all, F I contact Sue at HP, and apparently there will be an announcement soonG regarding Hobbyist on Itanium. And to answer Dave's question, I read on D HP's site that if you don't show up to the course, you don't get the" server... I thought of that too...  @ Anyway, I'll wait and see what happens and purchase accordingly.   Cheers   Garry    ------------------------------    Date: 13 May 2006 09:39:25 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on ItaniumC Message-ID: <1147538365.266370.226210@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>   ! banditstan2000@yahoo.co.uk wrote: 	 > Hi all, H > I contact Sue at HP, and apparently there will be an announcement soonI > regarding Hobbyist on Itanium. And to answer Dave's question, I read on F > HP's site that if you don't show up to the course, you don't get the$ > server... I thought of that too...  F I'd wager that if even if you show up if you don't have an actual (andF non-open source) application to at least attempt to port then they may3 be reluctant let you get away with the system also.   5 Understandable, but still somewhat disappointing. ;-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 03:19:27 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ) Subject: Re: Millenium Impcon data export 9 Message-ID: <zvGdnTu--JJTGvjZnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@libcom.com>    m.whitby@gmail.com wrote: I > Hi all, I need to export data from a system that runs on OpenVMS called C > Impcon - this system has no group so I'm asking in the VMS group, 1 > hopefully someone has some helpful information.  > I > The background is that in previous years data has been exported via a a I > product called Easysoft rms-odbc bridge. This ran a server on VMS which G > allowed users to connect and basically interact with the data from an F > ODBC connection. The license for this has now expired and costs manyG > thousands of pounds to renew which might be worth it if we planned on D > continous usage of the product but we simply want to do a completeH > export of the data held on the impcon system so that we can migrate to > another system.   D It appears that you have a solution.  I'd concentrate on that first.  F 1) Negotiate with the vendor for a one-time use fee.  (They might not  charge for this.)   H 2) How did the license expire?  If it's date based, you might get it to I work by changing the system date.  Note, I'm not suggesting that such be  G used to defeat any licensing.  However, as a one-time usage to extract  E data, some might argue that the practice should be Ok.  Others might   argue that it isn't.  I > Has anyone got any experiance of impcon or the database it uses? I have H > read it uses RMS to store the data although I have heard the format ofI > this database is application specific, therefore it would be impossible B > to obtain a generic RMS interpreter and extract the data in that	 > method.  > I > As mentioned previously, what is required is a way to export the entire I > contents of the impcon database tables etc in a standard format such as 3 > CSV. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.  > D > On a last note, unfortuanatly my experiance of VMS is very limitedH > although I am aware the version of quite outdated (V7.3-1). Thanks for# > any help that anyone can provide.  >   6 There are consultants that could do such work for you.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 03:55:54 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.9 Message-ID: <JqydnUIn64PFDfjZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@libcom.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:F > You may remember I asked a few days ago about what questions I couldG > ask to try and find out why people choose Unix over VMS.  I tried it. E > Granted, my sampling size was very small and not statistically sig- G > nificant.  But, I think even these results are interesting.  So, here B > we go.  Comments/discussion of the results would be appreciated. > J > First, the sample size.  Just my department faculty, 8 people.  Of thoseJ > 8, only 4 responded.  I think this says something in its own right.  But > we can cover that later. > E > Next, the questions.  Given no specific questions, I kept it pretty 
 > general. > 0 > 1.  Between VMS and Unix, which do you prefer? > 
 > 2.  Why? > $ > 3.  Which one did you learn first? > M > 4.  What other OSes (ignoring PC OSes for the sake of this discussion) have 6 >     you used enough to consider yourself proficient? > " > And  now we go onto the answers. >  > ---------------- > Professor #1 > 	 > 1.  VMS  > ? > 2. In some ways, I view VMS as "Unix done right";  that is, I @ >    understand it as having being inspired by and adopting mostA >    of the good things about Unix, but done more professionally,  >    regularly, and securely.  > D > 3.  I studied and gained experience with Unix before VMS, but madeG >     more substantial use of VMS before I made equivalent use of Unix.  > J > 4.  Various IBM mainframe OSs, such as VM, etc., Prime, MVS, even Xerox. >   # Ah yes, the 'proper' attitude.  :-)   H This sounds like someone who would use VMS in classwork, if it would be 
 available.   > -------------------- > Professor #2 > @ > 1.  Unix.  Of course, here I'm referring strictly to the "user? >     interface" and not to the "under the hood" type of stuff, # >     about which I know even less.  > @ > 2.  Mostly because I am more familiar with Unix and hence find? >     it easier to do certain tasks.  These may be equally easy < >     in VMS but I simply don't know how to do it there.  An@ >     example is to determine the current/working directory.  In? >     Unix, the command 'pwd' provides that info.  I know of no B >     analogous command in VMS.  Another directory-related issue IA >     have with VMS is that if you change directories (using 'set B >     default') into a non-existent directory, no error message isE >     given.  And you end up in some kind of netherworld in the sense E >     that it is not easy to get back to the directory where you were F >     before issuing the erroneous command.  (Or at least I don't knowE >     how to do so.)  I find the 'HELP' feature in VMS to be not very G >     helpful and, in fact, even worse than Unix's dreaded "man" pages.  > @ > 3.  VMS.  On a VAX 11/780 (750?) at the U of S in 1983.  I wasA >     introduced to Unix in 1985 at graduate school, where I also  >     used MTS.  > - > 4.  None.  (I've completely forgotten MTS.)   G This one sounds like a casual user who learned to do what he needed to  6 do with Unix and won't bother to learn another method.  G I personally find the inability with DCL a bit hard to take, but, then  E that's why the questions were asked, to see what users thought about  F VMS.  I'd think that getting 'lost' with respect to current directory F wouldn't ever be an issue, but now I'm aware that it can be an issue. I When you're so used to some things, it's hard to imagine how someone can   have a problem with them.    > ------------------------ > Professor #3 > 	 > 1. Unix  >  > C > 2.  Because VMS is not available for any computer that I OWN.  So C >     I can play around with unix on my computers in a stronger way C >     than I could  with VMS.  However, in general, I preferred the  >     command structure of VMS.  > 	 > 3.  VMS  > E > 4.  In the past I've used RSTS/E, RT-11, a couple of IBM O/S es and F >     some from other hardware vendors but quite frankly right now I'dG >     have trouble doing anything with them that wasn't at least pretty  >     similar to VMS or unix.   # Perhaps introduce this one to SIMH.    > ---------------- > Professor #4 > ? > 1.  VAX, but unfortunately, it does not seem to be in demand.  >  > 2.  Protection/access detail.  > 	 > 3.  VAX  > 
 > 4.  none  F This one sounds like the many people who don't know that VMS is still ' available.  Won't go into that further.    > ------------------C > The order is not significant and reflects the order in which they C > responded to me.  Needless to say, the first one surprised me and C > I discussed it further with him in the hall (that's where we hold A > some of our best academic discussions! :-)  He then informed me A > that he actually would prefer to do more of his copurse work on A > VMS if the tools were available, citing specifically Java and a C > good IDE.  While my using VAXen makes this impossible, Alphas can B > definitely run Java and I wouldthink that an IDE written in Java@ > (like Eclipse) would work on VMS.  Interesting that no one has> > ever approached me before to ask if we could do more on VMS,C > apparently because, as has often been states here, the perception ? > that VMS is legacy and these modern computer concepts are not  > available. > B > Looking at the next two, choice of Unix appears to be based on aB > lack of knowledge or a misconception.  And 4th had little to sayC > except that they would prefer VMS (Note the constant reference to C > "VAX" which shows how long since he actually used it on a regular  > basis. > C > Looks to me like if HP actually wanted it they could have the EDU  > market again.  > G > Oh yeah, I said I would comment on the 4/8 respondents.  Again, based E > on informal discussions in the hall, the 4 who did not respond just G > thought it was humorous as they consider VMS to be irrelevant at this  > time.  >  > Comments?  >  > bill >  >   I Each person's perceptions are their personal reality.  I'm not sure what  H 'irrelevant' has to do with your poll.  I could say something about the E attitude of the 4 non-respondents.  It was only 4 questions.  Still,  G their attitude is a result of the perception of VMS in the marketplace.   I It would be interesting if you could get an Alpha or itanic with all the  F tools and such used in your courses.  Access to the system would also C need to be addressed.  A decent terminal emulator.  There are some  F available.  I have to wonder how the 8 instructors would react if you H did get such, and made it known that the system is a viable alternative  for class work.   C One idea might be to apply to Sue for a pilot project, including a  G system and all the software.  You could offer to provide some feedback  H on the acceptance and usage of the system, and whatever users might ask G for that's not available.  Once you find methods to increase VMS usage  4 in classwork, those methods could be used elsewhere.    Thanks for asking the questions.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 13:46:46 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cm6a6F15hjq9U1@individual.net>  = In article <KFi9g.135073$tc.86484@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, + 	Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> writes:  >  >  > JF Mezei wrote:  >> etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: >>  H >>>I'd think it unlikely that HP could get back the edu market with VMS. >>   >>  I >> While you are right in reality,  VMS *could* have a good place in .edu I >> because it is still THE standard for clustering and the students could  >> learn a lot from it.  > H > I have mentioned this before but it's worth saying again. My fight to H > keep VMS at a Scottish University was undermined by DEC sales telling G > senior university procurement management that "Alan is living in the  G > past - VMS was a fine operating system in its time but Windows (with  F > some OSF/1 in the mix) was the future." I think that's because they D > thought two potential purchases were mutually exclusive when they D > weren't - well not until they waded in. So my plan to upgrade our J > Alphaservers was cancelled and the University ordered multiple Alpha NT J > systems as servers on DEC's advice. Not long after they regretted that.  > Oops.   F That's why I said if we could gather the data to prove there was stillG a chance of recovering the EDU Market it is higher-ups at HP we need to F convince.  The sales droids will always choose the quick sale over theF long-term commitment.  It means a faster commission and it is unlikelyF any of them figure on being with the company long enough to care aboutE future sales.  When your selling nothing but PC's, why would you even B consider loyalty?  One PC company is the same as another from your perspective.   bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 14:30:55 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cm8suF168kkoU1@individual.net>  9 In article <JqydnUIn64PFDfjZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@libcom.com>, * 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:G >> You may remember I asked a few days ago about what questions I could H >> ask to try and find out why people choose Unix over VMS.  I tried it.F >> Granted, my sampling size was very small and not statistically sig-H >> nificant.  But, I think even these results are interesting.  So, hereC >> we go.  Comments/discussion of the results would be appreciated.  >>  K >> First, the sample size.  Just my department faculty, 8 people.  Of those K >> 8, only 4 responded.  I think this says something in its own right.  But  >> we can cover that later.  >>  F >> Next, the questions.  Given no specific questions, I kept it pretty >> general.  >>  1 >> 1.  Between VMS and Unix, which do you prefer?  >>   >> 2.  Why?  >>  % >> 3.  Which one did you learn first?  >>  N >> 4.  What other OSes (ignoring PC OSes for the sake of this discussion) have7 >>     you used enough to consider yourself proficient?  >>  # >> And  now we go onto the answers.  >>   >> ----------------  >> Professor #1  >>  
 >> 1.  VMS >>  @ >> 2. In some ways, I view VMS as "Unix done right";  that is, IA >>    understand it as having being inspired by and adopting most B >>    of the good things about Unix, but done more professionally, >>    regularly, and securely. >>  E >> 3.  I studied and gained experience with Unix before VMS, but made H >>     more substantial use of VMS before I made equivalent use of Unix. >>  K >> 4.  Various IBM mainframe OSs, such as VM, etc., Prime, MVS, even Xerox.  >>   > % > Ah yes, the 'proper' attitude.  :-)  > J > This sounds like someone who would use VMS in classwork, if it would be  > available.  M And further discussion with said professor bears that out.  But the important L point is that VMS has always been available within the department as long asI I have been here.  he has never asked for anything on the VMS machine nor M made any attempt to use it.  Now, knowing that my policy has always been, "If K someone wants something on our servers and it won't break the system or the I budget, I put it up"  the only real excuse is a perception that the tools H needed were not available and thus there was  no reason to ask.  Part ofH this is likely due to the fact that before my arrival (and for some timeL afterwards) the datacenter offered VMS.  But their attitude was not the sameL as mine and requests for new products were usually refused.  Add to this theI fact that they adamantly refused to allow DECWindows access even going so N far as to remove most of it when we found ways to run pieces of it even thoughN they would not run the Session Manager. (I always thought it was a performanceJ issue until I started running it myself on our department VMS machines and" never saw any performance issues.)  G If I can get Alphas set up for next semester, I will put up things like G Java, whatever IDEs I can find, PHP, Perl and anything else I can think I of and we will see if I can coerce more than one course to be run on VMS.    >  >> --------------------  >> Professor #2  >>  A >> 1.  Unix.  Of course, here I'm referring strictly to the "user @ >>     interface" and not to the "under the hood" type of stuff,$ >>     about which I know even less. >>  A >> 2.  Mostly because I am more familiar with Unix and hence find @ >>     it easier to do certain tasks.  These may be equally easy= >>     in VMS but I simply don't know how to do it there.  An A >>     example is to determine the current/working directory.  In @ >>     Unix, the command 'pwd' provides that info.  I know of noC >>     analogous command in VMS.  Another directory-related issue I B >>     have with VMS is that if you change directories (using 'setC >>     default') into a non-existent directory, no error message is F >>     given.  And you end up in some kind of netherworld in the senseF >>     that it is not easy to get back to the directory where you wereG >>     before issuing the erroneous command.  (Or at least I don't know F >>     how to do so.)  I find the 'HELP' feature in VMS to be not veryH >>     helpful and, in fact, even worse than Unix's dreaded "man" pages. >>  A >> 3.  VMS.  On a VAX 11/780 (750?) at the U of S in 1983.  I was B >>     introduced to Unix in 1985 at graduate school, where I also >>     used MTS. >>  . >> 4.  None.  (I've completely forgotten MTS.) > I > This one sounds like a casual user who learned to do what he needed to  8 > do with Unix and won't bother to learn another method.  B Not so much a casual user as much as a Mathemetician (vs. ComputerA Scientist).  To him the computer is a tool and he has no interest C in the guts.  He has never been inside a computer and has no desire B to do so.  However, he is the one professor who is currently using@ VMS for one of his courses and it is likely that more of what he@ teaches could be done on VMS.  Education of the user is the most important thing for this one.    > I > I personally find the inability with DCL a bit hard to take, but, then  G > that's why the questions were asked, to see what users thought about  H > VMS.  I'd think that getting 'lost' with respect to current directory H > wouldn't ever be an issue, but now I'm aware that it can be an issue. K > When you're so used to some things, it's hard to imagine how someone can   > have a problem with them.   I I have to admit to agreeing with those two of his comments (by the way, I I did tell him about "SHOW DEFAULT" and he admitted it made sense).  But as I I said, I too did not intuitively grasp "SHOW DEFAULT" and I while I know K how to recover from SET DEFAULT to a non-existent directory I can see where H this is a problem.  A command that took one back to their home directoryH (maybe something like "SET DEFAULT /HOME") would be nice.  But, wouldn'tK it make sense to not allow setting your default directory to something that  doesn't exist?   >  >> ------------------------  >> Professor #3  >>  
 >> 1. Unix >>   >>  D >> 2.  Because VMS is not available for any computer that I OWN.  SoD >>     I can play around with unix on my computers in a stronger wayD >>     than I could  with VMS.  However, in general, I preferred the  >>     command structure of VMS. >>  
 >> 3.  VMS >>  F >> 4.  In the past I've used RSTS/E, RT-11, a couple of IBM O/S es andG >>     some from other hardware vendors but quite frankly right now I'd H >>     have trouble doing anything with them that wasn't at least pretty >>     similar to VMS or unix. > % > Perhaps introduce this one to SIMH.   I Already mentioned it to him, but not in detail.  I have never run the VAX K emulator of SIMH so I don't know how well it works.  Of course, being a VAX M does cause some problems.  While one can play with VMS, one can not do things ( that equate to the real world very well.   >  >> ----------------  >> Professor #4  >>  @ >> 1.  VAX, but unfortunately, it does not seem to be in demand. >>    >> 2.  Protection/access detail. >>  
 >> 3.  VAX >>   >> 4.  none  > H > This one sounds like the many people who don't know that VMS is still ) > available.  Won't go into that further.   E Pretty much it.  Sadly, as I have said before, Perception is Reality. C This falls back into the realm of HP marketing.  But something they B could fix.  The question being, how do we convince them to fix it?   >  >> ------------------ D >> The order is not significant and reflects the order in which theyD >> responded to me.  Needless to say, the first one surprised me andD >> I discussed it further with him in the hall (that's where we holdB >> some of our best academic discussions! :-)  He then informed meB >> that he actually would prefer to do more of his copurse work onB >> VMS if the tools were available, citing specifically Java and aD >> good IDE.  While my using VAXen makes this impossible, Alphas canC >> definitely run Java and I wouldthink that an IDE written in Java A >> (like Eclipse) would work on VMS.  Interesting that no one has ? >> ever approached me before to ask if we could do more on VMS, D >> apparently because, as has often been states here, the perception@ >> that VMS is legacy and these modern computer concepts are not
 >> available.  >>  C >> Looking at the next two, choice of Unix appears to be based on a C >> lack of knowledge or a misconception.  And 4th had little to say D >> except that they would prefer VMS (Note the constant reference toD >> "VAX" which shows how long since he actually used it on a regular	 >> basis.  >>  D >> Looks to me like if HP actually wanted it they could have the EDU >> market again. >>  H >> Oh yeah, I said I would comment on the 4/8 respondents.  Again, basedF >> on informal discussions in the hall, the 4 who did not respond justH >> thought it was humorous as they consider VMS to be irrelevant at this >> time. >>   >> Comments? >>   >> bill  >>   >>   > K > Each person's perceptions are their personal reality.  I'm not sure what  * > 'irrelevant' has to do with your poll.    K I have spoken with these people on numerous occaisions regarding my strange J collections of toys.  Most of these people so no difference between my useI of VMS or my use of RSTS/E.  These are both obsolete, legacy systems that L belong in a museum.  The fact that both are still sold and used commerciallyG is unknown to them. Thus they see them both as irrelevant to the modern 3 world of computing.  I can't fix that, only HP can.   J >                                         I could say something about the G > attitude of the 4 non-respondents.  It was only 4 questions.  Still,  I > their attitude is a result of the perception of VMS in the marketplace.  > K > It would be interesting if you could get an Alpha or itanic with all the  ( > tools and such used in your courses.    J If I can get a couple of Alphas up for next semester, I am certainly goingH to try (Itaniums are still not part of the equation as EDU PAK's for the Itanium are not yet available).   H >                                       Access to the system would also 6 > need to be addressed.  A decent terminal emulator.    I Putty works fine.  Remember, I already have students doing COBOL on a VMS H machine and they don't seem to have a problem with access.  Of course, II also run DECWindows and I would imagine that is how most currently do and G others would access the systems.  And then you have DECTerm which works F fine with the VMS editors.  Of course, I would also make other editorsE available depending on the needs and desires of my users.  Unlike our G local datacenter I think the machine is our slave and not the other way  around.   F >                                                      There are some H > available.  I have to wonder how the 8 instructors would react if you J > did get such, and made it known that the system is a viable alternative  > for class work.    Hopefully, we shall see.   > E > One idea might be to apply to Sue for a pilot project, including a   > system and all the software.    G The software is already available (at least all the same stuff as under E the Hobbyist Program).  I am working on acquiring hardware, thanks to J help from our community here.  Of course, I am always open to other offersI of assistance.  As I have said before the budget for any of this is $0.00 I but at least to this point no one has started telling me to stop using my F time, that they pay for. (Although I do have to admit that much of the= time I spend doing this is my own, including many a weekend.)    H >                              You could offer to provide some feedback J > on the acceptance and usage of the system, and whatever users might ask I > for that's not available.  Once you find methods to increase VMS usage  6 > in classwork, those methods could be used elsewhere.  F BUt then. it all comes back to HP.  How many places do you think stillE employ someone who is willing to do this?  HP has to start wooing the J EDU market and create at least a small desire to revive things.  Otherwise4 I am less than a voice crying out int he wilderness.   > " > Thanks for asking the questions.   F I am still somewhat of an academic at heart.  I was most interested in? the results and even more interested now in how I can use them.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 08:09:59 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.) Message-ID: <op.s9hwexuozgicya@hyrrokkin>   H On Sat, 13 May 2006 06:46:46 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   wrote:  ? > In article <KFi9g.135073$tc.86484@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, - > 	Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> writes:  >> >> >> JF Mezei wrote: >>> etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote:  >>> J >>>> I'd think it unlikely that HP could get back the edu market with VMS. >>>  >>> J >>> While you are right in reality,  VMS *could* have a good place in .eduJ >>> because it is still THE standard for clustering and the students could >>> learn a lot from it. >>H >> I have mentioned this before but it's worth saying again. My fight toH >> keep VMS at a Scottish University was undermined by DEC sales tellingG >> senior university procurement management that "Alan is living in the G >> past - VMS was a fine operating system in its time but Windows (with F >> some OSF/1 in the mix) was the future." I think that's because theyD >> thought two potential purchases were mutually exclusive when theyD >> weren't - well not until they waded in. So my plan to upgrade ourJ >> Alphaservers was cancelled and the University ordered multiple Alpha NTJ >> systems as servers on DEC's advice. Not long after they regretted that. >> Oops. > H > That's why I said if we could gather the data to prove there was stillI > a chance of recovering the EDU Market it is higher-ups at HP we need to H > convince.  The sales droids will always choose the quick sale over theH > long-term commitment.  It means a faster commission and it is unlikelyH > any of them figure on being with the company long enough to care aboutG > future sales.  When your selling nothing but PC's, why would you even D > consider loyalty?  One PC company is the same as another from your > perspective.< Actually they are not,  Dell has much better service than HP >  > bill >    ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 15:58:26 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cme12F16reveU2@individual.net>  ) In article <op.s9hwexuozgicya@hyrrokkin>, & 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:J > On Sat, 13 May 2006 06:46:46 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   > wrote: > @ >> In article <KFi9g.135073$tc.86484@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,. >> 	Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> writes: >>>  >>>  >>> JF Mezei wrote:   >>>> etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: >>>>K >>>>> I'd think it unlikely that HP could get back the edu market with VMS.  >>>> >>>>K >>>> While you are right in reality,  VMS *could* have a good place in .edu K >>>> because it is still THE standard for clustering and the students could  >>>> learn a lot from it.  >>> I >>> I have mentioned this before but it's worth saying again. My fight to I >>> keep VMS at a Scottish University was undermined by DEC sales telling H >>> senior university procurement management that "Alan is living in theH >>> past - VMS was a fine operating system in its time but Windows (withG >>> some OSF/1 in the mix) was the future." I think that's because they E >>> thought two potential purchases were mutually exclusive when they E >>> weren't - well not until they waded in. So my plan to upgrade our K >>> Alphaservers was cancelled and the University ordered multiple Alpha NT K >>> systems as servers on DEC's advice. Not long after they regretted that. 	 >>> Oops.  >>I >> That's why I said if we could gather the data to prove there was still J >> a chance of recovering the EDU Market it is higher-ups at HP we need toI >> convince.  The sales droids will always choose the quick sale over the I >> long-term commitment.  It means a faster commission and it is unlikely I >> any of them figure on being with the company long enough to care about H >> future sales.  When your selling nothing but PC's, why would you evenE >> consider loyalty?  One PC company is the same as another from your  >> perspective. > > Actually they are not,  Dell has much better service than HP  H Probably, but I was talking about from the perspective of a sales-droid.I The only thing they would care about is size of commission and abandoning G one vendor for another, well, they probably change jobs more often than " beltway-bandits (or car salesmen).   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:59:45 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.$ Message-ID: <e44vph$93v$1@online.de>  C In article <4cm8suF168kkoU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill  Gunshannon) writes:   K > I have to admit to agreeing with those two of his comments (by the way, I K > did tell him about "SHOW DEFAULT" and he admitted it made sense).  But as K > I said, I too did not intuitively grasp "SHOW DEFAULT" and I while I know M > how to recover from SET DEFAULT to a non-existent directory I can see where J > this is a problem.  A command that took one back to their home directory- > (maybe something like "SET DEFAULT /HOME")    + Of course, $ HOME :== SET DEFAULT SYS$LOGIN    > would be nice.  But, wouldn't M > it make sense to not allow setting your default directory to something that  > doesn't exist?  
 I actually do   /    $ SET DEFAULT DISK:[TOPDIR.SUBDIR.NEWSUBDIR]     $ CREATE/DIRECTORY []   :-)   D If one is somewhere without cut and paste and the directory spec is E quite long, it saves time typing and lessens the danger of mistyping.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 06:32:32 -0500 / From: pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) % Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 0 Message-ID: <v9KdnYkiH4VNXvjZ4p2dnA@comcast.com>  , In article <4ck0jdF16kbhlU1@individual.net>,) Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote: * >In article <op.s9f7k8sizgicya@hyrrokkin>,' >	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: K >> On Fri, 12 May 2006 07:08:08 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   	 >> wrote:  >>  0 >>> In article <XO%8g.2$54.545@news.uswest.net>,= >>> 	"Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes:  >>>> >>>>? >>>> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message * >>>> news:446395FE.61195AC@teksavvy.com... >>>>> Malcolm Dunnett wrote:K >>>>> >    However that same thinking suggested that the 80x86 architecture 
 >>>> couldK >>>>> > never keep up either and was doomed. I'm not a chip designer, but    >>>>> Intel J >>>>> > certainly seems to have found ways to get those speed enhancements >>>> without) >>>>> > sacrificing binary compatibility.  >>>>> M >>>>> That is because the 8086's instruction set was much simpler than VAX's. L >>>>> Intel didn't steal Vax tricks for its 8086, they stole Alpha tricks to >>>>> embed into the 8086. >>>>>  >>>>N >>>> Since the 8086/8088 processors were on the market long before the Alpha   >>>> wasL >>>> even on the drawing board, you must mean Intel "stole" from the Alpha   >>>> forM >>>> later processors.  Actually, the 8086 to 80286 were partially based on    >>>> theF >>>> IBM mainframe processors.  You could even go so far as to write   >>>> emulationF >>>> code on the 8086 that was nearly a one-to-one match for the BAL   >>>> instruction >>>> set IBM designed. >>> N >>> Which may be what gave us the PC-370.  Boy I wish I had a couple of them   >>> for  >>> my collection!!  >>  L >> Are you sure about that?  My recollection is that iwas a three chip set   >> made " >> by Motorola based on the 68000. > F >I don't know, I never got to see the inside of one and I only saw theF >outside once. :-)  I always assumed it was pure IBM.  But, I've been  >wrong before. >  >bill   > Nope -- the PC370 was a re-microcoded Motorola 68000 chip set.A I think they did the microcode for IBM... but perhaps IBM did it.          >  >-- K >Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves E >bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.  >University of Scranton   | B >Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>        --   --  H   d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN.  Don't you wish you could still buy it now!#   pechter-at-ureachtechnologies.com    ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 12:17:04 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)% Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 , Message-ID: <4cm120F16hloaU1@individual.net>  0 In article <v9KdnYkiH4VNXvjZ4p2dnA@comcast.com>,2 	pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes:. > In article <4ck0jdF16kbhlU1@individual.net>,+ > Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote: + >>In article <op.s9f7k8sizgicya@hyrrokkin>, ( >>	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:L >>> On Fri, 12 May 2006 07:08:08 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>  
 >>> wrote: >>> 1 >>>> In article <XO%8g.2$54.545@news.uswest.net>, > >>>> 	"Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes: >>>>>  >>>>> @ >>>>> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message+ >>>>> news:446395FE.61195AC@teksavvy.com...  >>>>>> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: L >>>>>> >    However that same thinking suggested that the 80x86 architecture >>>>> could L >>>>>> > never keep up either and was doomed. I'm not a chip designer, but   >>>>>> IntelK >>>>>> > certainly seems to have found ways to get those speed enhancements 
 >>>>> without * >>>>>> > sacrificing binary compatibility. >>>>>>N >>>>>> That is because the 8086's instruction set was much simpler than VAX's.M >>>>>> Intel didn't steal Vax tricks for its 8086, they stole Alpha tricks to  >>>>>> embed into the 8086.  >>>>>> >>>>> O >>>>> Since the 8086/8088 processors were on the market long before the Alpha   	 >>>>> was M >>>>> even on the drawing board, you must mean Intel "stole" from the Alpha   	 >>>>> for N >>>>> later processors.  Actually, the 8086 to 80286 were partially based on  	 >>>>> the G >>>>> IBM mainframe processors.  You could even go so far as to write    >>>>> emulation G >>>>> code on the 8086 that was nearly a one-to-one match for the BAL    >>>>> instruction  >>>>> set IBM designed.  >>>>O >>>> Which may be what gave us the PC-370.  Boy I wish I had a couple of them    >>>> for >>>> my collection!! >>> M >>> Are you sure about that?  My recollection is that iwas a three chip set    >>> made# >>> by Motorola based on the 68000.  >>G >>I don't know, I never got to see the inside of one and I only saw the G >>outside once. :-)  I always assumed it was pure IBM.  But, I've been   >>wrong before.  >> >>bill > @ > Nope -- the PC370 was a re-microcoded Motorola 68000 chip set.C > I think they did the microcode for IBM... but perhaps IBM did it.   F I would still like to have a couple for my collection.  Not to mention: being able to paly with something like VM/CMS again!!  :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 06:43:57 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> % Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 ) Message-ID: <op.s9hsfja5zgicya@hyrrokkin>   H On Sat, 13 May 2006 05:17:04 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   wrote:  2 > In article <v9KdnYkiH4VNXvjZ4p2dnA@comcast.com>,4 > 	pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes:/ >> In article <4ck0jdF16kbhlU1@individual.net>, , >> Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:- >>> In article <op.s9f7k8sizgicya@hyrrokkin>, * >>> 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:K >>>> On Fri, 12 May 2006 07:08:08 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>  >>>> wrote:  >>>>2 >>>>> In article <XO%8g.2$54.545@news.uswest.net>,? >>>>> 	"Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes:  >>>>>> >>>>>>A >>>>>> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message , >>>>>> news:446395FE.61195AC@teksavvy.com... >>>>>>> Malcolm Dunnett wrote:B >>>>>>> >    However that same thinking suggested that the 80x86   >>>>>>> architecture >>>>>> couldK >>>>>>> > never keep up either and was doomed. I'm not a chip designer, but 
 >>>>>>> Intel A >>>>>>> > certainly seems to have found ways to get those speed    >>>>>>> enhancements >>>>>> without+ >>>>>>> > sacrificing binary compatibility.  >>>>>>> J >>>>>>> That is because the 8086's instruction set was much simpler than   >>>>>>> VAX's.F >>>>>>> Intel didn't steal Vax tricks for its 8086, they stole Alpha   >>>>>>> tricks to  >>>>>>> embed into the 8086. >>>>>>>  >>>>>>J >>>>>> Since the 8086/8088 processors were on the market long before the   >>>>>> Alpha
 >>>>>> wasH >>>>>> even on the drawing board, you must mean Intel "stole" from the   >>>>>> Alpha
 >>>>>> forL >>>>>> later processors.  Actually, the 8086 to 80286 were partially based  	 >>>>>> on 
 >>>>>> theF >>>>>> IBM mainframe processors.  You could even go so far as to write >>>>>> emulationF >>>>>> code on the 8086 that was nearly a one-to-one match for the BAL >>>>>> instruction >>>>>> set IBM designed. >>>>> K >>>>> Which may be what gave us the PC-370.  Boy I wish I had a couple of   
 >>>>> them	 >>>>> for  >>>>> my collection!!  >>>>J >>>> Are you sure about that?  My recollection is that iwas a three chip   >>>> set	 >>>> made $ >>>> by Motorola based on the 68000. >>> I >>> I don't know, I never got to see the inside of one and I only saw the H >>> outside once. :-)  I always assumed it was pure IBM.  But, I've been >>> wrong before.  >>>  >>> bill >>A >> Nope -- the PC370 was a re-microcoded Motorola 68000 chip set. D >> I think they did the microcode for IBM... but perhaps IBM did it. > H > I would still like to have a couple for my collection.  Not to mention< > being able to paly with something like VM/CMS again!!  :-)! Get a P390, cheap and much better  >  > bill >    ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 14:54:35 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)% Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 , Message-ID: <4cma9bF16ibpfU2@individual.net>  ) In article <op.s9hsfja5zgicya@hyrrokkin>, & 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:J > On Sat, 13 May 2006 05:17:04 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   > wrote: > 3 >> In article <v9KdnYkiH4VNXvjZ4p2dnA@comcast.com>, 5 >> 	pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes: 0 >>> In article <4ck0jdF16kbhlU1@individual.net>,- >>> Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote: . >>>> In article <op.s9f7k8sizgicya@hyrrokkin>,+ >>>> 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: L >>>>> On Fri, 12 May 2006 07:08:08 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> 3 >>>>>> In article <XO%8g.2$54.545@news.uswest.net>, @ >>>>>> 	"Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes: >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> B >>>>>>> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message- >>>>>>> news:446395FE.61195AC@teksavvy.com...  >>>>>>>> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: C >>>>>>>> >    However that same thinking suggested that the 80x86    >>>>>>>> architecture 
 >>>>>>> could L >>>>>>>> > never keep up either and was doomed. I'm not a chip designer, but >>>>>>>> IntelB >>>>>>>> > certainly seems to have found ways to get those speed   >>>>>>>> enhancements  >>>>>>> without , >>>>>>>> > sacrificing binary compatibility. >>>>>>>>K >>>>>>>> That is because the 8086's instruction set was much simpler than    >>>>>>>> VAX's. G >>>>>>>> Intel didn't steal Vax tricks for its 8086, they stole Alpha    >>>>>>>> tricks to >>>>>>>> embed into the 8086.  >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> K >>>>>>> Since the 8086/8088 processors were on the market long before the   
 >>>>>>> Alpha  >>>>>>> was I >>>>>>> even on the drawing board, you must mean Intel "stole" from the   
 >>>>>>> Alpha  >>>>>>> for M >>>>>>> later processors.  Actually, the 8086 to 80286 were partially based   
 >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the G >>>>>>> IBM mainframe processors.  You could even go so far as to write  >>>>>>> emulation G >>>>>>> code on the 8086 that was nearly a one-to-one match for the BAL  >>>>>>> instruction  >>>>>>> set IBM designed.  >>>>>>L >>>>>> Which may be what gave us the PC-370.  Boy I wish I had a couple of   >>>>>> them 
 >>>>>> for >>>>>> my collection!! >>>>> K >>>>> Are you sure about that?  My recollection is that iwas a three chip   	 >>>>> set 
 >>>>> made% >>>>> by Motorola based on the 68000.  >>>>J >>>> I don't know, I never got to see the inside of one and I only saw theI >>>> outside once. :-)  I always assumed it was pure IBM.  But, I've been  >>>> wrong before. >>>> >>> B >>> Nope -- the PC370 was a re-microcoded Motorola 68000 chip set.E >>> I think they did the microcode for IBM... but perhaps IBM did it.  >>I >> I would still like to have a couple for my collection.  Not to mention = >> being able to paly with something like VM/CMS again!!  :-) # > Get a P390, cheap and much better   J IO just did a quick search.  It appears the P390 is a Micro-Channel board.F OK so far, I still have a few PS2's floating around here.  But furtherF search didn't show anywhere to actually get one.  Not even Ebay.  And,D based ont he apparent activity writing GNU software for it, I expect> if I found one it would cost even more than a VAX or an Alpha.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 08:17:28 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> % Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 ) Message-ID: <op.s9hwrenqzgicya@hyrrokkin>   H On Sat, 13 May 2006 07:54:35 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   wrote:  + > In article <op.s9hsfja5zgicya@hyrrokkin>, ( > 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:I >> On Sat, 13 May 2006 05:17:04 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> 	 >> wrote:  >>4 >>> In article <v9KdnYkiH4VNXvjZ4p2dnA@comcast.com>,6 >>> 	pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes:1 >>>> In article <4ck0jdF16kbhlU1@individual.net>, . >>>> Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:/ >>>>> In article <op.s9f7k8sizgicya@hyrrokkin>, , >>>>> 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:< >>>>>> On Fri, 12 May 2006 07:08:08 -0700, Bill Gunshannon   >>>>>> <bill@cs.uofs.edu> 
 >>>>>> wrote:  >>>>>>4 >>>>>>> In article <XO%8g.2$54.545@news.uswest.net>,A >>>>>>> 	"Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> writes:  >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>C >>>>>>>> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message . >>>>>>>> news:446395FE.61195AC@teksavvy.com...  >>>>>>>>> Malcolm Dunnett wrote:B >>>>>>>>> >    However that same thinking suggested that the 80x86 >>>>>>>>> architecture >>>>>>>> couldK >>>>>>>>> > never keep up either and was doomed. I'm not a chip designer,   
 >>>>>>>>> but  >>>>>>>>> Intel A >>>>>>>>> > certainly seems to have found ways to get those speed  >>>>>>>>> enhancements >>>>>>>> without- >>>>>>>>> > sacrificing binary compatibility. 	 >>>>>>>>> J >>>>>>>>> That is because the 8086's instruction set was much simpler than >>>>>>>>> VAX's.F >>>>>>>>> Intel didn't steal Vax tricks for its 8086, they stole Alpha >>>>>>>>> tricks to  >>>>>>>>> embed into the 8086.	 >>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>J >>>>>>>> Since the 8086/8088 processors were on the market long before the >>>>>>>> Alpha >>>>>>>> wasH >>>>>>>> even on the drawing board, you must mean Intel "stole" from the >>>>>>>> Alpha >>>>>>>> forH >>>>>>>> later processors.  Actually, the 8086 to 80286 were partially   >>>>>>>> based >>>>>>>> on  >>>>>>>> theH >>>>>>>> IBM mainframe processors.  You could even go so far as to write >>>>>>>> emulationH >>>>>>>> code on the 8086 that was nearly a one-to-one match for the BAL >>>>>>>> instruction >>>>>>>> set IBM designed. >>>>>>> K >>>>>>> Which may be what gave us the PC-370.  Boy I wish I had a couple of  >>>>>>> them >>>>>>> for  >>>>>>> my collection!!  >>>>>>J >>>>>> Are you sure about that?  My recollection is that iwas a three chip
 >>>>>> set >>>>>> made & >>>>>> by Motorola based on the 68000. >>>>> K >>>>> I don't know, I never got to see the inside of one and I only saw the J >>>>> outside once. :-)  I always assumed it was pure IBM.  But, I've been >>>>> wrong before.  >>>>>  >>>>C >>>> Nope -- the PC370 was a re-microcoded Motorola 68000 chip set. F >>>> I think they did the microcode for IBM... but perhaps IBM did it. >>> J >>> I would still like to have a couple for my collection.  Not to mention> >>> being able to paly with something like VM/CMS again!!  :-)$ >> Get a P390, cheap and much better > G > IO just did a quick search.  It appears the P390 is a Micro-Channel    > board.H > OK so far, I still have a few PS2's floating around here.  But furtherH > search didn't show anywhere to actually get one.  Not even Ebay.  And,F > based ont he apparent activity writing GNU software for it, I expect@ > if I found one it would cost even more than a VAX or an Alpha. >   H We got one free last year, but passed it on.  Maybe posting on another  
 newsgroup?   > bill >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 02:31:32 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   Subject: Re: TCPIP 5.4 anti-spam, Message-ID: <44657D29.2212020A@teksavvy.com>   Ok a few more tidbits:  E The 5.3 documentation states that SMTP.CONFIG is in TCPIP$SMTP_COMMON F directory. So it need not be in the [SYS0.TCPIP$SMTP] directory. (I am on VAX).    H Secondly, I just verified that modifying SMTP.CONFIG takes effect at the next inbound message.   6 When you DEFINE$SYSTEM TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_DEBUG 1  , eachH tcpip$smtp_recv_run.log contains a display of the configuration data andN I was able to verify that change I had just amde to the file had taken effect.  E As I recall, you had complained about OPCOM. Perhaps you had disabled D that class of OPCOM messages from being displayed or logged to file.  D Unfortunatly , OPCOM messages I see do not show which class of OPCOM	 they are.    ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 12:19:32 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) , Message-ID: <4cm16kF16hloaU2@individual.net>  0 In article <4465416B.34A68469@spam.comcast.net>,9 	"David J. Dachtera" <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net> writes:  > John Malmberg wrote: >>   >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >> > >> >K >> > The licenses come as a great big file that you can just run.  Couldn't = >> > I just do a "license unload *" and then run the new one?  >> >1 >> http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~malmberg/dcl/  >>  : >> Download lmf_cleanup.txt as lmf_cleanup.com and run it. >>  G >> It will backup the license database, and then remove all the expired  >> licenses. >>  J >> [Yes, I know that there is a simple enhancement to speed up the commandE >> procedure a little bit, but this works, and I have not had time to # >> update this download directory.]  >  > I usually just:  > > > $ rename lmf$license .'f$cvtime("''f$time()'-367-",,"year")' > $ license create
 > $ @paks.com  > H > Seems to work just fine except for the first week or so of January. MyI > PAKs generally renew in late Winter or early Spring; so, that works for  > me.   M The EDU PAKs seem to be end of August, so I suspect this might not work well.    bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 12:23:03 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) , Message-ID: <4cm1d7F16hloaU3@individual.net>  B In article <1147482357.599181.13510@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, 	davidc@montagar.com writes:G > You will need a nwe School ID, and we're going to address the message 
 > issue... > G > You should be able to see the expired licenses.  In fact, the LICENSE C > LOAD command should tell you the product and authorization of the  > expired license: > G > %LICENSE-W-TERM, OPENVMS-HOBBYIST DECUS-USA-243848-409967 License has  > terminated > H > In this case, the license product OPENVMS-HOBBYIST, with authorizationB > string of DECUS-USA-243848-409967 has expired.  You can see this > license using the command  > D > $ LICENSE LIST/FULL OPENVMS-HOBBYIST /AUTH=DECUS-USA-243848-409967 >   J OK, thanks.  I think I understand the system better.  Am I right to assumeH the expiration is one year after I asl for new ones and not a fixed dateG regardless of when I get them?  Because in that case I can control when J this happens in order to ensure it does not happen at an inopportune time.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 11:40:26 -0500 6 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net>) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) 0 Message-ID: <44660BFA.130000F6@spam.comcast.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > D > In article <1147482357.599181.13510@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,% >         davidc@montagar.com writes: I > > You will need a nwe School ID, and we're going to address the message  > > issue... > > I > > You should be able to see the expired licenses.  In fact, the LICENSE E > > LOAD command should tell you the product and authorization of the  > > expired license: > > I > > %LICENSE-W-TERM, OPENVMS-HOBBYIST DECUS-USA-243848-409967 License has  > > terminated > > J > > In this case, the license product OPENVMS-HOBBYIST, with authorizationD > > string of DECUS-USA-243848-409967 has expired.  You can see this > > license using the command  > > F > > $ LICENSE LIST/FULL OPENVMS-HOBBYIST /AUTH=DECUS-USA-243848-409967 > >  > L > OK, thanks.  I think I understand the system better.  Am I right to assumeJ > the expiration is one year after I asl for new ones and not a fixed dateI > regardless of when I get them?  Because in that case I can control when L > this happens in order to ensure it does not happen at an inopportune time.  H The expiration date is as on the PAK, and figures into the checksum. So,3 it cannot be altered without re-generating the PAK.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 12:29:11 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply), Subject: Re: Updated VMS information May 7th$ Message-ID: <e44jen$h50$2@online.de>  < In article <jwN8g.389$tM4.47@news.cpqcorp.net>, Hoff Hoffman" <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:   1 > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: 7 > > In article <uiaFDQqh2EMS@eisner.encompasserve.org>, B > > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:  > > ; > >>       2) SCS over IP protocols (a plan, not a promise)  > > I > > With 50 Mb/s DSL available already in some areas, does this mean one  I > > could implement a multi-site cluster over such a connection (perhaps  L > > with something similar to a VPN)?  Of course, the advertised 50 Mb/s is E > > downstream, not upstream, but 10 Mb/s upstream can't be far away.  > C >    Having sufficient bandwidth is certainly necessary though not  E > necessarily sufficient for clustering; it's the round-trip latency  # > that's usually the classic limit.  > J >    Clusters are already operating over WAN bridges at a number of sites.  F I'm not sure what the bottleneck is as far as latency goes with DSL.  G Assuming that it is comparable to other types of connections, then one  B could have a multi-site cluster (at distances comparable to those B possible with other types of connections) via DSL, which might be , interesting for disaster-tolerant hobbyists.  H >    The classic rule of thumb for cluster operations over an arbitrary K > datalink involves having the bandwidth and the latency and the multicast  K > capabilities of a ten megabit Ethernet or IEEE 802.3 network, or better.  L >   If you have all that, then you can probably cluster over the connection.  1 Is there any way to easily measure this from VMS?    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.265 ************************