1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 14 May 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 266       Contents: Re: Compressing backup file  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: SGI files for chapter 11 Re: TCPIP 5.4 anti-spam   Re: The EDU Program (once again)  Re: The EDU Program (once again)# Re: Updated VMS information May 7th   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 18:33:10 -0500 / From: pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) $ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file: Message-ID: <Z_6dnXzIRIor8fvZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@comcast.com>  3 In article <slrne6c1u4.cl2.rivie@stench.no.domain>, ' Roger Ivie  <rivie@ridgenet.net> wrote: 2 >On 2006-05-13, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote:J >> That is clever,  but I didn't know that  Bell had any interest in Unix. > B >I suspect the reference to Bell is to Bell Labs, not Gordon Bell. > I >> He gave Cutler the mandate to develop what became VMS and I also don't M >> think thr references to C are accurate.  I have in my files the original   
 >> licenceM >> signed by Bell for PL/I Jan 1978 IIRC and unless I am mistaken the first C C >> on the VAX used the PL/I code, and that would have been ca. 1980  > C >Given that it refers to memory being divided into 4K partitions, I 4 >suspect it's talking about the PDP-11, not the VAX. >--  >roger ivie  >rivie@ridgenet.net   A And I think it's Ma Bell (Western Electric/Bell Labs) not Gordon.    Bill     --   --  H   d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN.  Don't you wish you could still buy it now!#   pechter-at-ureachtechnologies.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:45:47 -0400 * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4465e300$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  C "Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER" <peter@langstoeger.at> wrote in message & news:4464e29b$1@news.langstoeger.at...4 > In article <4464b026$1@merkur.rz.uni-konstanz.de>,E vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) writes: 5 > >A zx2000 (1 GHz, 1GB RAM) runs OpenVMS (~800 US$).  > I > Nice. Benjamin currently sells his (RENEW). He is a U**X man and didn't @ > mention VMS so far (cause VMS is not supported on the zx2000).0 > Too bad the price will rise now drastically... > 6 > >You have to build in a DVD-ROM/DVD-recorder and useH > >the IDE-cable for the disk drive instead of the cable for the CD-ROM. > F > It seems you have some insight. Do you perhaps know if the contained> > FireGL X1-256p graphic adapter will run with VMS (CDE) also? >   = No, but you can shove an ATI R7500 into it without a problem.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:46:46 -0400 * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium* Message-ID: <4465e33b@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  C "Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER" <peter@langstoeger.at> wrote in message & news:4464dfe7$1@news.langstoeger.at...> > In article <iF19g.415$Xg5.33@news.cpqcorp.net>, Hoff Hoffman! <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes: J > >   I've seen HP Itanium-based boxes capable of booting OpenVMS I64 sell > >on eBay for under US$1000.  > E > "Capable" or "Supported". I think the former, because the latter is 1 > unlikely as I have seen prices way over $5000.-  > $ > Do you mean a zx2000 or what else?K > I've seen a RX2600 for 2k, but it wasn't supported by VMS (because of old  > Itanic version)  >   " It works, it just isn't supported.   ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 18:37:53 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cmnc1F16qdnuU1@individual.net>  $ In article <e44vph$93v$1@online.de>,S 	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: E > In article <4cm8suF168kkoU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill  > Gunshannon) writes:  > L >> I have to admit to agreeing with those two of his comments (by the way, IL >> did tell him about "SHOW DEFAULT" and he admitted it made sense).  But asL >> I said, I too did not intuitively grasp "SHOW DEFAULT" and I while I knowN >> how to recover from SET DEFAULT to a non-existent directory I can see whereK >> this is a problem.  A command that took one back to their home directory . >> (maybe something like "SET DEFAULT /HOME")  > - > Of course, $ HOME :== SET DEFAULT SYS$LOGIN   E Of course, the only problem with that is that it is no different than F writting a local "CD" command.  It is not VMS and it won't work if theE user happens to be somewhere else.  I have always resisted Unix-izing G VMS for that very reason. (My predecesor here did not share this idea!)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:28:38 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll./ Message-ID: <P4idnSnrd_E4ufvZRVn-iw@libcom.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:; > In article <JqydnUIn64PFDfjZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@libcom.com>, , > 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: H >>> You may remember I asked a few days ago about what questions I couldI >>> ask to try and find out why people choose Unix over VMS.  I tried it. G >>> Granted, my sampling size was very small and not statistically sig- I >>> nificant.  But, I think even these results are interesting.  So, here D >>> we go.  Comments/discussion of the results would be appreciated. >>> L >>> First, the sample size.  Just my department faculty, 8 people.  Of thoseL >>> 8, only 4 responded.  I think this says something in its own right.  But >>> we can cover that later. >>> G >>> Next, the questions.  Given no specific questions, I kept it pretty  >>> general. >>> 2 >>> 1.  Between VMS and Unix, which do you prefer? >>>  >>> 2.  Why? >>> & >>> 3.  Which one did you learn first? >>> O >>> 4.  What other OSes (ignoring PC OSes for the sake of this discussion) have 8 >>>     you used enough to consider yourself proficient? >>> $ >>> And  now we go onto the answers. >>>  >>> ---------------- >>> Professor #1 >>>  >>> 1.  VMS  >>> A >>> 2. In some ways, I view VMS as "Unix done right";  that is, I B >>>    understand it as having being inspired by and adopting mostC >>>    of the good things about Unix, but done more professionally,  >>>    regularly, and securely.  >>> F >>> 3.  I studied and gained experience with Unix before VMS, but madeI >>>     more substantial use of VMS before I made equivalent use of Unix.  >>> L >>> 4.  Various IBM mainframe OSs, such as VM, etc., Prime, MVS, even Xerox. >>> & >> Ah yes, the 'proper' attitude.  :-) >>K >> This sounds like someone who would use VMS in classwork, if it would be  
 >> available.  > O > And further discussion with said professor bears that out.  But the important N > point is that VMS has always been available within the department as long asK > I have been here.  he has never asked for anything on the VMS machine nor O > made any attempt to use it.  Now, knowing that my policy has always been, "If M > someone wants something on our servers and it won't break the system or the K > budget, I put it up"  the only real excuse is a perception that the tools J > needed were not available and thus there was  no reason to ask.  Part ofJ > this is likely due to the fact that before my arrival (and for some timeN > afterwards) the datacenter offered VMS.  But their attitude was not the sameN > as mine and requests for new products were usually refused.  Add to this theK > fact that they adamantly refused to allow DECWindows access even going so P > far as to remove most of it when we found ways to run pieces of it even thoughP > they would not run the Session Manager. (I always thought it was a performanceL > issue until I started running it myself on our department VMS machines and$ > never saw any performance issues.) > I > If I can get Alphas set up for next semester, I will put up things like I > Java, whatever IDEs I can find, PHP, Perl and anything else I can think K > of and we will see if I can coerce more than one course to be run on VMS.  >  >>> -------------------- >>> Professor #2 >>> B >>> 1.  Unix.  Of course, here I'm referring strictly to the "userA >>>     interface" and not to the "under the hood" type of stuff, % >>>     about which I know even less.  >>> B >>> 2.  Mostly because I am more familiar with Unix and hence findA >>>     it easier to do certain tasks.  These may be equally easy > >>>     in VMS but I simply don't know how to do it there.  AnB >>>     example is to determine the current/working directory.  InA >>>     Unix, the command 'pwd' provides that info.  I know of no D >>>     analogous command in VMS.  Another directory-related issue IC >>>     have with VMS is that if you change directories (using 'set D >>>     default') into a non-existent directory, no error message isG >>>     given.  And you end up in some kind of netherworld in the sense G >>>     that it is not easy to get back to the directory where you were H >>>     before issuing the erroneous command.  (Or at least I don't knowG >>>     how to do so.)  I find the 'HELP' feature in VMS to be not very I >>>     helpful and, in fact, even worse than Unix's dreaded "man" pages.  >>> B >>> 3.  VMS.  On a VAX 11/780 (750?) at the U of S in 1983.  I wasC >>>     introduced to Unix in 1985 at graduate school, where I also  >>>     used MTS.  >>> / >>> 4.  None.  (I've completely forgotten MTS.) J >> This one sounds like a casual user who learned to do what he needed to 9 >> do with Unix and won't bother to learn another method.  > D > Not so much a casual user as much as a Mathemetician (vs. ComputerC > Scientist).  To him the computer is a tool and he has no interest E > in the guts.  He has never been inside a computer and has no desire D > to do so.  However, he is the one professor who is currently usingB > VMS for one of his courses and it is likely that more of what heB > teaches could be done on VMS.  Education of the user is the most > important thing for this one.  > J >> I personally find the inability with DCL a bit hard to take, but, then H >> that's why the questions were asked, to see what users thought about I >> VMS.  I'd think that getting 'lost' with respect to current directory  I >> wouldn't ever be an issue, but now I'm aware that it can be an issue.  L >> When you're so used to some things, it's hard to imagine how someone can  >> have a problem with them. > K > I have to admit to agreeing with those two of his comments (by the way, I K > did tell him about "SHOW DEFAULT" and he admitted it made sense).  But as K > I said, I too did not intuitively grasp "SHOW DEFAULT" and I while I know M > how to recover from SET DEFAULT to a non-existent directory I can see where J > this is a problem.  A command that took one back to their home directoryJ > (maybe something like "SET DEFAULT /HOME") would be nice.  But, wouldn'tM > it make sense to not allow setting your default directory to something that  > doesn't exist?  I I'll tell you what this one is.  It's the failure to know and use one of  G the really good parts of VMS, logical names.  SET DEFAULT SYS$LOGIN is  I what you're looking for.  As a curious person, one of the first things I  E did lo these many years ago was scan the listing of all logicals and   understand their usage.   K Also, the SHOW command is so very useful, and I miss it on other platforms.    >>> ------------------------ >>> Professor #3 >>>  >>> 1. Unix  >>>  >>> E >>> 2.  Because VMS is not available for any computer that I OWN.  So E >>>     I can play around with unix on my computers in a stronger way E >>>     than I could  with VMS.  However, in general, I preferred the ! >>>     command structure of VMS.  >>>  >>> 3.  VMS  >>> G >>> 4.  In the past I've used RSTS/E, RT-11, a couple of IBM O/S es and H >>>     some from other hardware vendors but quite frankly right now I'dI >>>     have trouble doing anything with them that wasn't at least pretty  >>>     similar to VMS or unix. & >> Perhaps introduce this one to SIMH. > K > Already mentioned it to him, but not in detail.  I have never run the VAX M > emulator of SIMH so I don't know how well it works.  Of course, being a VAX O > does cause some problems.  While one can play with VMS, one can not do things * > that equate to the real world very well.  I Yes, that's more of a hobby than a usable system.  Not saying it doesn't  I work, just that it takes some extra interest to get into playing with it.    >>> ---------------- >>> Professor #4 >>> A >>> 1.  VAX, but unfortunately, it does not seem to be in demand.  >>> ! >>> 2.  Protection/access detail.  >>>  >>> 3.  VAX  >>>  >>> 4.  noneI >> This one sounds like the many people who don't know that VMS is still  * >> available.  Won't go into that further. > G > Pretty much it.  Sadly, as I have said before, Perception is Reality. E > This falls back into the realm of HP marketing.  But something they D > could fix.  The question being, how do we convince them to fix it? >  >>> ------------------E >>> The order is not significant and reflects the order in which they E >>> responded to me.  Needless to say, the first one surprised me and E >>> I discussed it further with him in the hall (that's where we hold C >>> some of our best academic discussions! :-)  He then informed me C >>> that he actually would prefer to do more of his copurse work on C >>> VMS if the tools were available, citing specifically Java and a E >>> good IDE.  While my using VAXen makes this impossible, Alphas can D >>> definitely run Java and I wouldthink that an IDE written in JavaB >>> (like Eclipse) would work on VMS.  Interesting that no one has@ >>> ever approached me before to ask if we could do more on VMS,E >>> apparently because, as has often been states here, the perception A >>> that VMS is legacy and these modern computer concepts are not  >>> available. >>> D >>> Looking at the next two, choice of Unix appears to be based on aD >>> lack of knowledge or a misconception.  And 4th had little to sayE >>> except that they would prefer VMS (Note the constant reference to E >>> "VAX" which shows how long since he actually used it on a regular 
 >>> basis. >>> E >>> Looks to me like if HP actually wanted it they could have the EDU  >>> market again.  >>> I >>> Oh yeah, I said I would comment on the 4/8 respondents.  Again, based G >>> on informal discussions in the hall, the 4 who did not respond just I >>> thought it was humorous as they consider VMS to be irrelevant at this 	 >>> time.  >>> 
 >>> Comments?  >>>  >>> bill >>>  >>> L >> Each person's perceptions are their personal reality.  I'm not sure what + >> 'irrelevant' has to do with your poll.    > M > I have spoken with these people on numerous occaisions regarding my strange L > collections of toys.  Most of these people so no difference between my useK > of VMS or my use of RSTS/E.  These are both obsolete, legacy systems that N > belong in a museum.  The fact that both are still sold and used commerciallyI > is unknown to them. Thus they see them both as irrelevant to the modern 5 > world of computing.  I can't fix that, only HP can.   - Yes, marketing, it always comes back to this.   K >>                                         I could say something about the  H >> attitude of the 4 non-respondents.  It was only 4 questions.  Still, J >> their attitude is a result of the perception of VMS in the marketplace. >>L >> It would be interesting if you could get an Alpha or itanic with all the ) >> tools and such used in your courses.    > L > If I can get a couple of Alphas up for next semester, I am certainly goingJ > to try (Itaniums are still not part of the equation as EDU PAK's for the! > Itanium are not yet available).   G I don't have anything to offer.  Most of my 'extra' stuff is VAX.  I'd  F wonder how useful any EV4 stuff would be when using resource hogs, as ( I'm led to understand java and such are.  I >>                                       Access to the system would also  7 >> need to be addressed.  A decent terminal emulator.    > K > Putty works fine.  Remember, I already have students doing COBOL on a VMS J > machine and they don't seem to have a problem with access.  Of course, IK > also run DECWindows and I would imagine that is how most currently do and I > others would access the systems.  And then you have DECTerm which works H > fine with the VMS editors.  Of course, I would also make other editorsG > available depending on the needs and desires of my users.  Unlike our I > local datacenter I think the machine is our slave and not the other way 	 > around.  > G >>                                                      There are some  I >> available.  I have to wonder how the 8 instructors would react if you  K >> did get such, and made it known that the system is a viable alternative   >> for class work. >  > Hopefully, we shall see. > F >> One idea might be to apply to Sue for a pilot project, including a   >> system and all the software.  > I > The software is already available (at least all the same stuff as under G > the Hobbyist Program).  I am working on acquiring hardware, thanks to L > help from our community here.  Of course, I am always open to other offersK > of assistance.  As I have said before the budget for any of this is $0.00 K > but at least to this point no one has started telling me to stop using my H > time, that they pay for. (Although I do have to admit that much of the? > time I spend doing this is my own, including many a weekend.)   F Hmmm....  What part of the above didn't you understand?  Sue at HP is D the hobbyist, and I believe education, person to talk to.  Sorry, I H cannot remember the spelling of her last name.  Perhaps someone without " my disability could help out here?  C Write up a short proposal, saying basically what's in this thread,  H asking for a pilot project on getting VMS back into education.  Ask for A a donation of a decent system and software.  Email addresses are  H <firstname>dot<lastname>@HP.COM I think.  your payback would be writing H up the results of the pilot project, what works, and what doesn't work. A   Such might help HP to then better address the education market.   - Actually, I have her in my address book, duh.    <Susan>dot<Skonetski>atHPdotCOM   I >>                              You could offer to provide some feedback  K >> on the acceptance and usage of the system, and whatever users might ask  J >> for that's not available.  Once you find methods to increase VMS usage 7 >> in classwork, those methods could be used elsewhere.  > H > BUt then. it all comes back to HP.  How many places do you think stillG > employ someone who is willing to do this?  HP has to start wooing the L > EDU market and create at least a small desire to revive things.  Otherwise6 > I am less than a voice crying out int he wilderness. > # >> Thanks for asking the questions.  >   H > I am still somewhat of an academic at heart.  I was most interested inA > the results and even more interested now in how I can use them.  >  > bill >   / See above about asking Sue for a pilot project.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 18:44:39 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cmnomF16qdnuU2@individual.net>  / In article <P4idnSnrd_E4ufvZRVn-iw@libcom.com>, * 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:< >> In article <JqydnUIn64PFDfjZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@libcom.com>,- >> 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:I >>>> You may remember I asked a few days ago about what questions I could J >>>> ask to try and find out why people choose Unix over VMS.  I tried it.H >>>> Granted, my sampling size was very small and not statistically sig-J >>>> nificant.  But, I think even these results are interesting.  So, hereE >>>> we go.  Comments/discussion of the results would be appreciated.  >>>>M >>>> First, the sample size.  Just my department faculty, 8 people.  Of those M >>>> 8, only 4 responded.  I think this says something in its own right.  But  >>>> we can cover that later.  >>>>H >>>> Next, the questions.  Given no specific questions, I kept it pretty
 >>>> general.  >>>>3 >>>> 1.  Between VMS and Unix, which do you prefer?  >>>>
 >>>> 2.  Why?  >>>>' >>>> 3.  Which one did you learn first?  >>>>P >>>> 4.  What other OSes (ignoring PC OSes for the sake of this discussion) have9 >>>>     you used enough to consider yourself proficient?  >>>>% >>>> And  now we go onto the answers.  >>>> >>>> ----------------  >>>> Professor #1  >>>> >>>> 1.  VMS >>>>B >>>> 2. In some ways, I view VMS as "Unix done right";  that is, IC >>>>    understand it as having being inspired by and adopting most D >>>>    of the good things about Unix, but done more professionally,  >>>>    regularly, and securely. >>>>G >>>> 3.  I studied and gained experience with Unix before VMS, but made J >>>>     more substantial use of VMS before I made equivalent use of Unix. >>>>M >>>> 4.  Various IBM mainframe OSs, such as VM, etc., Prime, MVS, even Xerox.  >>>>' >>> Ah yes, the 'proper' attitude.  :-)  >>> L >>> This sounds like someone who would use VMS in classwork, if it would be  >>> available. >>  P >> And further discussion with said professor bears that out.  But the importantO >> point is that VMS has always been available within the department as long as L >> I have been here.  he has never asked for anything on the VMS machine norP >> made any attempt to use it.  Now, knowing that my policy has always been, "IfN >> someone wants something on our servers and it won't break the system or theL >> budget, I put it up"  the only real excuse is a perception that the toolsK >> needed were not available and thus there was  no reason to ask.  Part of K >> this is likely due to the fact that before my arrival (and for some time O >> afterwards) the datacenter offered VMS.  But their attitude was not the same O >> as mine and requests for new products were usually refused.  Add to this the L >> fact that they adamantly refused to allow DECWindows access even going soQ >> far as to remove most of it when we found ways to run pieces of it even though Q >> they would not run the Session Manager. (I always thought it was a performance M >> issue until I started running it myself on our department VMS machines and % >> never saw any performance issues.)  >>  J >> If I can get Alphas set up for next semester, I will put up things likeJ >> Java, whatever IDEs I can find, PHP, Perl and anything else I can thinkL >> of and we will see if I can coerce more than one course to be run on VMS. >>   >>>> --------------------  >>>> Professor #2  >>>>C >>>> 1.  Unix.  Of course, here I'm referring strictly to the "user B >>>>     interface" and not to the "under the hood" type of stuff,& >>>>     about which I know even less. >>>>C >>>> 2.  Mostly because I am more familiar with Unix and hence find B >>>>     it easier to do certain tasks.  These may be equally easy? >>>>     in VMS but I simply don't know how to do it there.  An C >>>>     example is to determine the current/working directory.  In B >>>>     Unix, the command 'pwd' provides that info.  I know of noE >>>>     analogous command in VMS.  Another directory-related issue I D >>>>     have with VMS is that if you change directories (using 'setE >>>>     default') into a non-existent directory, no error message is H >>>>     given.  And you end up in some kind of netherworld in the senseH >>>>     that it is not easy to get back to the directory where you wereI >>>>     before issuing the erroneous command.  (Or at least I don't know H >>>>     how to do so.)  I find the 'HELP' feature in VMS to be not veryJ >>>>     helpful and, in fact, even worse than Unix's dreaded "man" pages. >>>>C >>>> 3.  VMS.  On a VAX 11/780 (750?) at the U of S in 1983.  I was D >>>>     introduced to Unix in 1985 at graduate school, where I also >>>>     used MTS. >>>>0 >>>> 4.  None.  (I've completely forgotten MTS.)K >>> This one sounds like a casual user who learned to do what he needed to  : >>> do with Unix and won't bother to learn another method. >>  E >> Not so much a casual user as much as a Mathemetician (vs. Computer D >> Scientist).  To him the computer is a tool and he has no interestF >> in the guts.  He has never been inside a computer and has no desireE >> to do so.  However, he is the one professor who is currently using C >> VMS for one of his courses and it is likely that more of what he C >> teaches could be done on VMS.  Education of the user is the most   >> important thing for this one. >>  K >>> I personally find the inability with DCL a bit hard to take, but, then  I >>> that's why the questions were asked, to see what users thought about  J >>> VMS.  I'd think that getting 'lost' with respect to current directory J >>> wouldn't ever be an issue, but now I'm aware that it can be an issue. M >>> When you're so used to some things, it's hard to imagine how someone can   >>> have a problem with them.  >>  L >> I have to admit to agreeing with those two of his comments (by the way, IL >> did tell him about "SHOW DEFAULT" and he admitted it made sense).  But asL >> I said, I too did not intuitively grasp "SHOW DEFAULT" and I while I knowN >> how to recover from SET DEFAULT to a non-existent directory I can see whereK >> this is a problem.  A command that took one back to their home directory K >> (maybe something like "SET DEFAULT /HOME") would be nice.  But, wouldn't N >> it make sense to not allow setting your default directory to something that >> doesn't exist?  > K > I'll tell you what this one is.  It's the failure to know and use one of  I > the really good parts of VMS, logical names.  SET DEFAULT SYS$LOGIN is  K > what you're looking for.  As a curious person, one of the first things I  G > did lo these many years ago was scan the listing of all logicals and   > understand their usage.   A How is someone totally unfamiliar with VMS supposed to know about ? some obscure concept like "LOGICALS" and what all of them might  be?  > M > Also, the SHOW command is so very useful, and I miss it on other platforms.  >  >>>> ------------------------  >>>> Professor #3  >>>> >>>> 1. Unix >>>> >>>>F >>>> 2.  Because VMS is not available for any computer that I OWN.  SoF >>>>     I can play around with unix on my computers in a stronger wayF >>>>     than I could  with VMS.  However, in general, I preferred the" >>>>     command structure of VMS. >>>> >>>> 3.  VMS >>>>H >>>> 4.  In the past I've used RSTS/E, RT-11, a couple of IBM O/S es andI >>>>     some from other hardware vendors but quite frankly right now I'd J >>>>     have trouble doing anything with them that wasn't at least pretty  >>>>     similar to VMS or unix.' >>> Perhaps introduce this one to SIMH.  >>  L >> Already mentioned it to him, but not in detail.  I have never run the VAXN >> emulator of SIMH so I don't know how well it works.  Of course, being a VAXP >> does cause some problems.  While one can play with VMS, one can not do things+ >> that equate to the real world very well.  > K > Yes, that's more of a hobby than a usable system.  Not saying it doesn't  K > work, just that it takes some extra interest to get into playing with it.  >  >>>> ----------------  >>>> Professor #4  >>>>B >>>> 1.  VAX, but unfortunately, it does not seem to be in demand. >>>>" >>>> 2.  Protection/access detail. >>>> >>>> 3.  VAX >>>>
 >>>> 4.  none J >>> This one sounds like the many people who don't know that VMS is still + >>> available.  Won't go into that further.  >>  H >> Pretty much it.  Sadly, as I have said before, Perception is Reality.F >> This falls back into the realm of HP marketing.  But something theyE >> could fix.  The question being, how do we convince them to fix it?  >>   >>>> ------------------ F >>>> The order is not significant and reflects the order in which theyF >>>> responded to me.  Needless to say, the first one surprised me andF >>>> I discussed it further with him in the hall (that's where we holdD >>>> some of our best academic discussions! :-)  He then informed meD >>>> that he actually would prefer to do more of his copurse work onD >>>> VMS if the tools were available, citing specifically Java and aF >>>> good IDE.  While my using VAXen makes this impossible, Alphas canE >>>> definitely run Java and I wouldthink that an IDE written in Java C >>>> (like Eclipse) would work on VMS.  Interesting that no one has A >>>> ever approached me before to ask if we could do more on VMS, F >>>> apparently because, as has often been states here, the perceptionB >>>> that VMS is legacy and these modern computer concepts are not >>>> available.  >>>>E >>>> Looking at the next two, choice of Unix appears to be based on a E >>>> lack of knowledge or a misconception.  And 4th had little to say F >>>> except that they would prefer VMS (Note the constant reference toF >>>> "VAX" which shows how long since he actually used it on a regular >>>> basis.  >>>>F >>>> Looks to me like if HP actually wanted it they could have the EDU >>>> market again. >>>>J >>>> Oh yeah, I said I would comment on the 4/8 respondents.  Again, basedH >>>> on informal discussions in the hall, the 4 who did not respond justJ >>>> thought it was humorous as they consider VMS to be irrelevant at this
 >>>> time. >>>> >>>> Comments? >>>>	 >>>> bill  >>>> >>>>M >>> Each person's perceptions are their personal reality.  I'm not sure what  , >>> 'irrelevant' has to do with your poll.   >>  N >> I have spoken with these people on numerous occaisions regarding my strangeM >> collections of toys.  Most of these people so no difference between my use L >> of VMS or my use of RSTS/E.  These are both obsolete, legacy systems thatO >> belong in a museum.  The fact that both are still sold and used commercially J >> is unknown to them. Thus they see them both as irrelevant to the modern6 >> world of computing.  I can't fix that, only HP can. > / > Yes, marketing, it always comes back to this.  > L >>>                                         I could say something about the I >>> attitude of the 4 non-respondents.  It was only 4 questions.  Still,  K >>> their attitude is a result of the perception of VMS in the marketplace.  >>> M >>> It would be interesting if you could get an Alpha or itanic with all the  * >>> tools and such used in your courses.   >>  M >> If I can get a couple of Alphas up for next semester, I am certainly going K >> to try (Itaniums are still not part of the equation as EDU PAK's for the " >> Itanium are not yet available). > I > I don't have anything to offer.  Most of my 'extra' stuff is VAX.  I'd  H > wonder how useful any EV4 stuff would be when using resource hogs, as * > I'm led to understand java and such are. > J >>>                                       Access to the system would also 8 >>> need to be addressed.  A decent terminal emulator.   >>  L >> Putty works fine.  Remember, I already have students doing COBOL on a VMSK >> machine and they don't seem to have a problem with access.  Of course, I L >> also run DECWindows and I would imagine that is how most currently do andJ >> others would access the systems.  And then you have DECTerm which worksI >> fine with the VMS editors.  Of course, I would also make other editors H >> available depending on the needs and desires of my users.  Unlike ourJ >> local datacenter I think the machine is our slave and not the other way
 >> around. >>  H >>>                                                      There are some J >>> available.  I have to wonder how the 8 instructors would react if you L >>> did get such, and made it known that the system is a viable alternative  >>> for class work.  >>   >> Hopefully, we shall see.  >>  G >>> One idea might be to apply to Sue for a pilot project, including a  ! >>> system and all the software.   >>  J >> The software is already available (at least all the same stuff as underH >> the Hobbyist Program).  I am working on acquiring hardware, thanks toM >> help from our community here.  Of course, I am always open to other offers L >> of assistance.  As I have said before the budget for any of this is $0.00L >> but at least to this point no one has started telling me to stop using myI >> time, that they pay for. (Although I do have to admit that much of the @ >> time I spend doing this is my own, including many a weekend.) > H > Hmmm....  What part of the above didn't you understand?  Sue at HP is F > the hobbyist, and I believe education, person to talk to.  Sorry, I J > cannot remember the spelling of her last name.  Perhaps someone without $ > my disability could help out here? > E > Write up a short proposal, saying basically what's in this thread,  J > asking for a pilot project on getting VMS back into education.  Ask for C > a donation of a decent system and software.  Email addresses are  J > <firstname>dot<lastname>@HP.COM I think.  your payback would be writing J > up the results of the pilot project, what works, and what doesn't work. C >   Such might help HP to then better address the education market.  > / > Actually, I have her in my address book, duh.  > ! > <Susan>dot<Skonetski>atHPdotCOM  > J >>>                              You could offer to provide some feedback L >>> on the acceptance and usage of the system, and whatever users might ask K >>> for that's not available.  Once you find methods to increase VMS usage  8 >>> in classwork, those methods could be used elsewhere. >>  I >> BUt then. it all comes back to HP.  How many places do you think still H >> employ someone who is willing to do this?  HP has to start wooing theM >> EDU market and create at least a small desire to revive things.  Otherwise 7 >> I am less than a voice crying out int he wilderness.  >>  $ >>> Thanks for asking the questions. >>  I >> I am still somewhat of an academic at heart.  I was most interested in B >> the results and even more interested now in how I can use them. >>   >> bill  >>   > 1 > See above about asking Sue for a pilot project.  >   D It might come to that, but realize that anything formal also impliesD a commitment of my time.  I have no problem sneaking what time I canC into this but committing time may not be in the cards.  Plus, there E are other issues on the table now that may make all of this moot, but E for the time being, I will keep trying in my own little way.  Now, if D we could only find like minded people in the CS departments of other) (especially more prominent) schools.  :-)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:01:47 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <44662D14.82CCA71C@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:H > That's why I said if we could gather the data to prove there was stillI > a chance of recovering the EDU Market it is higher-ups at HP we need to  > convince.     F If anything major is to change in the way VMS is handled by its owner,A it isn't enough for users/customers to beg Hurd, you also need to G convince VMS management , and more importantly, convince VMS management # to fight WITH you to convince Hurd.   H VMS management seems to be quite limited in its aspirations: support theH remaining customer base and only fix/improves stuff that those customersE use. I don't see VMS management come here and ask us to help convince ? Hurd that VMS needs more money for development. I don't see VMS E management fighting hard to get VMS marketed very openly. I don't see G VMS management sending out press releases touting VMS capabilities (for @ instance, when a  major CERT advisory comes out, a press releaseF advising the world that the version running on VMS is NOT affected, or" that a path is already available).  A Considering all the cuts that have happened (if 50% of VMS is now G outsourced to India, that means that 50% of the real VMS engineers have C been let go.) VMS management are probably very weary of rocking the H boat.  So they sit there, happy they still have a job and accepting VMS'H fate as a system that is essentially been declared mature and on supportF for the remaining customers with minor development continuing to cater to those customers.   F In order to make changes, we need to convince VMS management first and7 then both customers and VMS managemeght fight together.    ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 19:30:33 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cmqepF16dc4dU2@individual.net>  , In article <44662E44.BE828911@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:L >> I have to admit to agreeing with those two of his comments (by the way, IE >> did tell him about "SHOW DEFAULT" and he admitted it made sense).   > J > When working in a multi-OS environment, you can help users feel familiar$ > with the following in sylogin.com: >  > $pwd :== "SHOW DEFAULT"  > $cd :== "SET DEFAULT "# > $home :== "SET DEFAULT SYS$LOGIN"  > $man :== "HELP"  > $ > Not sure how you can emulate CD .. >  > But for me, I have > $up :== "SET DEFAULT [.-]"  J As I already stated, a very bad idea.  It slows down the aclimitization toI VMS.  It causes problems when a user has to use VMS in a strange location H causing discomfort that will be targeted back on VMS.  And, as you said,H you can't duplicate everything.  Of course if you really wanted to go toJ all that trouble, you could probably do it with a program, possibly called) "UNIX" that would then have options like:  UNIX /CD
 UNIX /CD..	 UNIX /PWD   D But it would still be a bad idea.  A better idea would be writting aF couple of good books to teach new users about VMS (a couple they wouldD have to target different levels of user.  VMS for Dummies is not the answwer either. :-)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:06:50 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <44662E44.BE828911@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:K > I have to admit to agreeing with those two of his comments (by the way, I D > did tell him about "SHOW DEFAULT" and he admitted it made sense).   H When working in a multi-OS environment, you can help users feel familiar" with the following in sylogin.com:   $pwd :== "SHOW DEFAULT"  $cd :== "SET DEFAULT "! $home :== "SET DEFAULT SYS$LOGIN"  $man :== "HELP"   " Not sure how you can emulate CD ..   But for me, I have $up :== "SET DEFAULT [.-]"   ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 20:02:12 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cmsa3F16k4rdU2@individual.net>  , In article <44663850.8569DF52@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:0 >> > Of course, $ HOME :== SET DEFAULT SYS$LOGIN >>  H >> Of course, the only problem with that is that it is no different than" >> writting a local "CD" command.  > B > Face it, 99.999999% of VMS shops have defined "CD" to means "SETJ > DEFAULT".  This is one area when VMS enginers shoudl have included it by > default on VMS.   A Well, others here can express their opinions, but the last time I A remember this being discussed I seem to remember that no one here B had done (or would do) that.  I think it is likely a college thing7 and not something you would find in the business world.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:52:00 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <446638D6.C9316978@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:C > How is someone totally unfamiliar with VMS supposed to know about A > some obscure concept like "LOGICALS" and what all of them might  > be?   ( Because some has explained it to them ?   G For someone coming in from MVS, you can simply state that logical names E are the VMS equivalent of DDNAMES except they are more powerful since 7 they can also contain values instead of just filenames.   G And you need to spend a few minutes explaining the difference between a  logical name and a symbol.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:45:38 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <44663759.24957FC9@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:J > what you're looking for.  As a curious person, one of the first things IF > did lo these many years ago was scan the listing of all logicals and > understand their usage.   E QUICK: what does DECW$USE_XM_VENDOR_SHELL contain and what is it used 	 for ?????    :-) ;-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:49:45 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <44663850.8569DF52@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:/ > > Of course, $ HOME :== SET DEFAULT SYS$LOGIN  > G > Of course, the only problem with that is that it is no different than ! > writting a local "CD" command.    @ Face it, 99.999999% of VMS shops have defined "CD" to means "SETH DEFAULT".  This is one area when VMS enginers shoudl have included it by default on VMS.   C The one thing that is truly missing from VMS is the equivvvalent of  rmdir.     	$DELETE/DIR 	$DELETE/DIR/CONTENTS * 	$DELETE/DIR/CONTENTS/RECURSE (or /SUBDIR)    7 The first one would fail if the directory is not empty. D The second one would fail if one of the subdirectories is not empty. The third one would work fine.  H They would also need to add some of the DELETE qualifiers such as /ERASE
 /LOG /CONFIRM    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:56:27 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <446639E1.6E513389@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:L > As I already stated, a very bad idea.  It slows down the aclimitization toK > VMS.  It causes problems when a user has to use VMS in a strange location 8 > causing discomfort that will be targeted back on VMS.   H I rarely use Unix. And I always define CD UP and HOME. And if I get to aH foreign VMS system that doesn't have them, I put them into my login.com.? They are far more efficient/productive than the VMS real names.   @ However, when I write DCL procedures, I know to use the real VMS, commands and not assume those symbols exist.  F If you have students that make only casual use of VMS, make their lifeD easy for them by defining those symbols. You can just make a note toD them about those commands not being native and provide them with theF "real" VMS equivalent so that can go into HELP to get the gory details" about all the possible qualifiers.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 20:28:15 GMT ' From: Steve Thompson <smt@vgersoft.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.C Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0605131627350.30561@honker.vgersoft.com>   $ On Sat, 13 May 2006, JF Mezei wrote:  $ > Not sure how you can emulate CD .. >  > But for me, I have > $up :== "SET DEFAULT [.-]"   You can always:    	$ define .. [-] 	$ cd ..   :-)    Steve    ------------------------------    Date: 13 May 2006 14:04:14 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.C Message-ID: <1147554254.742830.111070@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:; > In article <JqydnUIn64PFDfjZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@libcom.com>, , > 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:I > >> You may remember I asked a few days ago about what questions I could J > >> ask to try and find out why people choose Unix over VMS.  I tried it. [...]  > >> --------------------  > >> Professor #2  > >>C > >> 1.  Unix.  Of course, here I'm referring strictly to the "user B > >>     interface" and not to the "under the hood" type of stuff,& > >>     about which I know even less. > >>C > >> 2.  Mostly because I am more familiar with Unix and hence find B > >>     it easier to do certain tasks.  These may be equally easy? > >>     in VMS but I simply don't know how to do it there.  An C > >>     example is to determine the current/working directory.  In B > >>     Unix, the command 'pwd' provides that info.  I know of noE > >>     analogous command in VMS.  Another directory-related issue I D > >>     have with VMS is that if you change directories (using 'setE > >>     default') into a non-existent directory, no error message is H > >>     given.  And you end up in some kind of netherworld in the senseH > >>     that it is not easy to get back to the directory where you wereI > >>     before issuing the erroneous command.  (Or at least I don't know H > >>     how to do so.)  I find the 'HELP' feature in VMS to be not veryJ > >>     helpful and, in fact, even worse than Unix's dreaded "man" pages. > >>C > >> 3.  VMS.  On a VAX 11/780 (750?) at the U of S in 1983.  I was D > >>     introduced to Unix in 1985 at graduate school, where I also > >>     used MTS. > >>0 > >> 4.  None.  (I've completely forgotten MTS.) > > J > > This one sounds like a casual user who learned to do what he needed to: > > do with Unix and won't bother to learn another method. > D > Not so much a casual user as much as a Mathemetician (vs. ComputerC > Scientist).  To him the computer is a tool and he has no interest E > in the guts.  He has never been inside a computer and has no desire D > to do so.  However, he is the one professor who is currently usingB > VMS for one of his courses and it is likely that more of what heB > teaches could be done on VMS.  Education of the user is the most > important thing for this one.  >  > > J > > I personally find the inability with DCL a bit hard to take, but, thenH > > that's why the questions were asked, to see what users thought aboutI > > VMS.  I'd think that getting 'lost' with respect to current directory I > > wouldn't ever be an issue, but now I'm aware that it can be an issue. L > > When you're so used to some things, it's hard to imagine how someone can > > have a problem with them.  > K > I have to admit to agreeing with those two of his comments (by the way, I K > did tell him about "SHOW DEFAULT" and he admitted it made sense).  But as K > I said, I too did not intuitively grasp "SHOW DEFAULT" and I while I know M > how to recover from SET DEFAULT to a non-existent directory I can see where J > this is a problem.  A command that took one back to their home directoryJ > (maybe something like "SET DEFAULT /HOME") would be nice.  But, wouldn'tM > it make sense to not allow setting your default directory to something that  > doesn't exist?    F Agreed. In fact, this one of of the first features I implemented in my TO.COM.   B But I remember someone (I think it was Carl Lydick) once posted an# answer. It was something like this:   0 $ SET DEFAULT [NEWDIRECTORY.WITH.LONG.LONG.NAME] $ CREATE/DIRECTORY []   F This way you only have to type the long directory name once. Of courseG I don't think most people will find this a suitable reason to have this 3 behavior, but if there is an advantage, this is it.    [...]    AEF    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 19:26:06 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.9 Message-ID: <wJCdneRHqJe99_vZnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:/ >>> Of course, $ HOME :== SET DEFAULT SYS$LOGIN H >> Of course, the only problem with that is that it is no different than" >> writting a local "CD" command.  > B > Face it, 99.999999% of VMS shops have defined "CD" to means "SETJ > DEFAULT".  This is one area when VMS enginers shoudl have included it by > default on VMS.    Wrong!  F As for me, SD is SHOW DEFAULT, and GO is SET DEFAULT.  I'd understand I someone arguing for GO to be RUN.  However, RUN can be abbreviated to R,   so no real gain there.  I The nice thing about VMS is that it's so easy to set up your own private  H user interface (symbols), and it's also easy to implement it on another  system.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 19:32:45 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.9 Message-ID: <wJCdnedHqJcw9vvZnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote:K >> what you're looking for.  As a curious person, one of the first things I G >> did lo these many years ago was scan the listing of all logicals and  >> understand their usage. > G > QUICK: what does DECW$USE_XM_VENDOR_SHELL contain and what is it used  > for ?????  > 	 > :-) ;-)   ) DFEACCT> sho log DECW$USE_XM_VENDOR_SHELL H %SHOW-S-NOTRAN, no translation for logical name DECW$USE_XM_VENDOR_SHELL  F I don't use DECwindows, possibly that's why I don't have that logical ' defined, or, was this a trick question?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 19:34:04 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.9 Message-ID: <wJCdneZHqJdg9vvZnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:L >> I have to admit to agreeing with those two of his comments (by the way, IE >> did tell him about "SHOW DEFAULT" and he admitted it made sense).   > J > When working in a multi-OS environment, you can help users feel familiar$ > with the following in sylogin.com: >  > $pwd :== "SHOW DEFAULT"  > $cd :== "SET DEFAULT "# > $home :== "SET DEFAULT SYS$LOGIN"  > $man :== "HELP"  > $ > Not sure how you can emulate CD ..  F If CD invoked a command file, then you could look at the argument and ( determine what to do with special cases.   > But for me, I have > $up :== "SET DEFAULT [.-]"     --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 19:39:02 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll./ Message-ID: <c8SdnZ6KMv3a8PvZRVn-rA@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:M >> As I already stated, a very bad idea.  It slows down the aclimitization to L >> VMS.  It causes problems when a user has to use VMS in a strange location9 >> causing discomfort that will be targeted back on VMS.   > J > I rarely use Unix. And I always define CD UP and HOME. And if I get to aJ > foreign VMS system that doesn't have them, I put them into my login.com.A > They are far more efficient/productive than the VMS real names.  > B > However, when I write DCL procedures, I know to use the real VMS. > commands and not assume those symbols exist. > H > If you have students that make only casual use of VMS, make their lifeF > easy for them by defining those symbols. You can just make a note toF > them about those commands not being native and provide them with theH > "real" VMS equivalent so that can go into HELP to get the gory details$ > about all the possible qualifiers.  H I agree with Bill about new users.  As for experienced users, they know L what's going on and customization is then a case of using a strength of VMS.  I If you have to set up a few symbols for new users, then document them in  A WELCOME.TXT.  In that manner the users will quickly learn what's  B actually happening, and it will also teach them to use additional  symbols for foreign commands.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 19:23:54 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)% Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 , Message-ID: <4cmq2aF16dc4dU1@individual.net>  / In article <e45bgp$dr8$02$1@news.t-online.com>, + 	Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:  > Tom Linden schrieb:  >>  $ >> Get a P390, cheap and much better >>   > 	 > where ?     That's what I said!!   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 13 May 2006 19:59:15 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)% Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 , Message-ID: <4cms4jF16k4rdU1@individual.net>  , In article <446638F9.FCAB38BB@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Michael Kraemer wrote: >>   >> Tom Linden schrieb: >> >& >> > Get a P390, cheap and much better >> > >>  
 >> where ? > ( > Have you tried www.ibm.com ??? ;-) :-)  D I doubt very seriously that IBM doesn onesies to private individuals? and even if they did I doubt I could afford their asking price. ? And if this is current technology from IBM it is definitely not ? going to be cheaper than an old abandoned PC-370 from 2 decades  ago.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:52:35 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: Re: SGI files for chapter 11 , Message-ID: <446638F9.FCAB38BB@teksavvy.com>   Michael Kraemer wrote: >  > Tom Linden schrieb:  > > % > > Get a P390, cheap and much better  > >  > 	 > where ?   & Have you tried www.ibm.com ??? ;-) :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:47:19 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   Subject: Re: TCPIP 5.4 anti-spam, Message-ID: <446629B2.F1685809@teksavvy.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: D > On ALPHA, if I have an anti-spam field in SMTP.CONFIG which is notG > understood, I just get a warning and continue.  Can you check if this  > works on VAX?   E I had a badly formatter Bad-Clients: list. (You really need the comas @ between items even if split them in a milti line entry with eachH subsequent line starting with a TAB character) and it reported the error  but otherwise seemed to work ok.  5 However, I didn't test it with an illegal field name.    You can easily try it though.   & $DEFINE/SYSTEM TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_DEBUG 1 $TELNET/PORT=25 host  " wait for the 220 "welcome" message HELO chocolate.COM QUIT  F You can then look at the log and you'll see the full config as well as any error messages.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:25:40 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) , Message-ID: <446624A0.A7D34EF8@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:O > The EDU PAKs seem to be end of August, so I suspect this might not work well.   H Not sure if this is common, but until recently, I didn't know about SHOW/ LICENSE. I only knew about the LICENSE utility.   ( SHOW LICENSE/SINCE=date/TERMINATION_DATE   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 18:47:51 -0400 - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> ) Subject: Re: The EDU Program (once again) 1 Message-ID: <bLidnfsTtoyF__vZRVn-og@adelphia.com>    David J. Dachtera wrote: >  > I usually just:  > > > $ rename lmf$license .'f$cvtime("''f$time()'-367-",,"year")' > $ license create
 > $ @paks.com  > H > Seems to work just fine except for the first week or so of January. MyI > PAKs generally renew in late Winter or early Spring; so, that works for  > me.   : I have several PAKs like TSM and BLISS that do not expire.   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:43:37 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> , Subject: Re: Updated VMS information May 7th, Message-ID: <446628D3.D38EE661@teksavvy.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: F > I'm not sure what the bottleneck is as far as latency goes with DSL.  E Have VMS engineers published what the maximum latency is for SCS in a 	 cluster ?   H DSL varies a lot from implementation to implementation. For instance, myB ISP is about 500km away. The DSL part is less than 1km to a remoteE block. (then it is Fibre to the CO, fibre to a BAS (acess server) and F ATM again to toronto where my ISP has its first router which assemblesE ATM frames into PPPoE packetc and then extracts the TCPIP packet from  those pesky PPPoE things.   8 From me to my ISP's first router, the pings are at 20ms.  E Inside the internet, there are protocols such as BGP which allow your D ISP to route packets via a second network if the first network is noG longer able to deliver packets to your destination. But These protocols C are not "instant" and it can take a number ofg minutes before route B tables are updated if your have connections that flow through many dofferent networks.   D And I think that even in the best of times, those delays in updatingC route tables are well above the expected SCS timeouts. So everytime D there would be a route problem, you risk losing part of your cluster with one side having to reboot.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.266 ************************