1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 16 May 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 270       Contents: Re: Compressing backup file  Cross-architecture booting Re: Cross-architecture booting Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium  Re: Hobbyist on Itanium . Re: MacOS-X & drive/file sharing with OpenVMS?. Re: MacOS-X & drive/file sharing with OpenVMS?  Re: Millenium Impcon data export  Re: Millenium Impcon data export Re: MIME bug: escaped filenames  Re: MIME bug: escaped filenames  Re: Opinions Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: TCPIP 5.4 anti-spam  Re: TCPIP START MAIL1 Re: Trying to upgrade to 7.3 - Strange Disk Image 1 Re: Trying to upgrade to 7.3 - Strange Disk Image * Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:45:18 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>$ Subject: Re: Compressing backup file. Message-ID: <O63ag.484$9J.70@news.cpqcorp.net>   Steve Matzura wrote:H > I was just thinking about a product I used for compressing not backupsE > but other data for writing to magneto-opticals and thought, data is F > data, why should it not compress a BACKUP saveset, too?  The productH > is Disk Miser from Symark. If it can write to magneto-opticals, it canC > surely write to CD's and maybe even now to DVD's. What's the diff B > between a CD and a DVD but about 4gb? A disk is a disk is a disk4 > mostly, isn't it? Or am I over-simplifying things?  G    You're oversimplifying.  (The command sets for MO, for CD, for DVD+   and DVD- are all different.)  B    That, and the IDE/ATAPI I/O buses on most of the OpenVMS Alpha 3 systems are unfortunately often comparatively slow.   I    4GB is an insignificant storage quantity in the data-archival market,  I too.  You might get the attention of some folks with HD or BD, but these  C are just coming onto the market and the per-piece media prices are  " currently comparatively expensive.  E    Many of the ancient TLZ-class DAT drives will beat a 4GB DVD+R/RW  G disk, for instance, and a DLT-class drive -- an older TZ8x-class drive  G -- will also typically handily beat a DVD as an data-archival solution.    ------------------------------    Date: 15 May 2006 17:48:02 -0700/ From: "mpocciot@gmail.com" <mpocciot@gmail.com> # Subject: Cross-architecture booting C Message-ID: <1147740482.551148.146470@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   
 Hello all,  > I have a MicroVAX 3300, but the local disks have gone down the hill....after many years. B Reading the Cluster documentation it is not clear to me if one canA build a cluster of an Alphaserver 2100 running OpenVMS 7.3.1, and  boot/operate de VAX from it.  G The VAX doesn't have any local disks where to do the "Vax installation"  to. G Is it possible to create all the required structure in the Alphaserver, E configure it as the MOP server, boot the uVAX and install OpenVMS for 9 VAX on a second disk in the Alpha so the uVAX can use it?     Any help is greatly appreciated,   marcio pocciotti   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 00:49:24 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Re: Cross-architecture booting , Message-ID: <446959A3.47DBF55C@teksavvy.com>   "mpocciot@gmail.com" wrote: I > The VAX doesn't have any local disks where to do the "Vax installation"  > to. I > Is it possible to create all the required structure in the Alphaserver, G > configure it as the MOP server, boot the uVAX and install OpenVMS for ; > VAX on a second disk in the Alpha so the uVAX can use it?   H It is possible to boot a VAX from a disk served by an Alpha. But it must/ be a different disk from the Alpha system disk.   H It isn't clear to me how you could go about building such a disk without a running VAX though.   E if you go to http://www.hp.com/go/vms/doc  you should be able to find > the clustering manual which will have all the details on this.   ------------------------------    Date: 15 May 2006 11:02:34 -0700 From: "Verne" <verne@wvnet.edu>   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on ItaniumC Message-ID: <1147716154.647011.320160@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   A I attended one of these porting classes last July ... and several F people said, when we introduced ourselves, that they were there solelyA to learn more about OpenVMS on Integrity and "kick the tires" and G clearly said they brought no software with them ... and AFAIK, they got * their $2,000 box a few weeks later anyway.   Verne    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:09:19 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium/ Message-ID: <jt3ag.487$cC.117@news.cpqcorp.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:  I > I would imagine those of us who are currently getting by on a VAX could G > work with something a little less.  Just out of curiosity, can anyone 3 > tell me how an XP1000 compares to a VAX 7000-640?   H    Very nicely, in my experience.  I can set the AlphaStation XP1000 on G my desk, and it hasn't collapsed to the floor yet.  I can also connect  H it to an office-grade UPS, too.  Well, without the UPS starting to glow.  H    One of the folks in the community has the AlphaStation XP1000 posted H at circa 260 VUPs, if that helps.  (That's likely an unofficial number; F AFAIK DIGITAL/Compaq/HP hasn't ever posted VUPs numbers more an a few E (if any?) VUPs ratings for systems other than VAX systems.)  The VAX  > 7000 model 640 was officially rated somewhere around 125 VUPs.  ? http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/vups_297.html ? http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_tps.html   G    In the latter chart, the VAX 7000 model 640 is 590 units, while the  H slowest EV6-class box I can find (an EV6 at 466 MHz) is well over 2,000 D units -- I don't see the AlphaStation (it's a workstation and not a A server, and the workstations tended not to see the same sorts of  E performance testing sequences performed and published) listed in the  % server performance comparison charts.   3    Most any low-end Integrity server is faster yet.    ------------------------------   Date: 15 May 2006 18:52:56 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4cs107F17ajsiU2@individual.net>  , In article <4cs0nuF17ajsiU1@individual.net>,+ 	bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 1 > In article <jt3ag.487$cC.117@news.cpqcorp.net>, 1 > 	Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:  >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>  K >>> I would imagine those of us who are currently getting by on a VAX could I >>> work with something a little less.  Just out of curiosity, can anyone 5 >>> tell me how an XP1000 compares to a VAX 7000-640?  >>  K >>    Very nicely, in my experience.  I can set the AlphaStation XP1000 on  J >> my desk, and it hasn't collapsed to the floor yet.  I can also connect K >> it to an office-grade UPS, too.  Well, without the UPS starting to glow.  >>  K >>    One of the folks in the community has the AlphaStation XP1000 posted  K >> at circa 260 VUPs, if that helps.  (That's likely an unofficial number;  I >> AFAIK DIGITAL/Compaq/HP hasn't ever posted VUPs numbers more an a few  H >> (if any?) VUPs ratings for systems other than VAX systems.)  The VAX A >> 7000 model 640 was officially rated somewhere around 125 VUPs.  >>  B >> http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/vups_297.htmlB >> http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_tps.html >>  J >>    In the latter chart, the VAX 7000 model 640 is 590 units, while the K >> slowest EV6-class box I can find (an EV6 at 466 MHz) is well over 2,000  G >> units -- I don't see the AlphaStation (it's a workstation and not a  D >> server, and the workstations tended not to see the same sorts of H >> performance testing sequences performed and published) listed in the ( >> server performance comparison charts. >>  6 >>    Most any low-end Integrity server is faster yet. > J > Thanks Hoff.  That answers my qyestion.  I am hoping to acquire a coupleJ > of XP1000's and if I do will replace the VAX with at least one and maybeI > a pair of them, clustered.  I just wanted to know what the impact on my H > users was likely to be.  Looks like a performance improvement for whatF > they do now.  I guess the next wuestion will be how well it performs
 > doing Java.   I Something else just hit me after I made that posting.  What am I going to G do with three of those huge VAXen?  :-)  They make my 11/44's look like 	 MicroVAX.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 15 May 2006 12:30:52 -0700( From: "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com>  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on ItaniumC Message-ID: <1147721452.003115.209120@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   ? I saw some documentation before I went to the Dallas class that G indicated that working to port some piece of freeware or other would be  provided as an option.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:34:18 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium/ Message-ID: <_I4ag.498$mL.219@news.cpqcorp.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:  J > Thanks Hoff.  That answers my qyestion.  I am hoping to acquire a coupleJ > of XP1000's and if I do will replace the VAX with at least one and maybeI > a pair of them, clustered.  I just wanted to know what the impact on my H > users was likely to be.  Looks like a performance improvement for whatF > they do now.  I guess the next wuestion will be how well it performs
 > doing Java.   D    The biggest initial impact will be in getting the Alpha binaries D on-line for all the tools and widgets that folks use.  I'd probably E first look to cluster the Alpha and the VAX systems together, if you  C have the licenses for that, and if you can upgrade the OpenVMS VAX  B software packages up to versions that are cluster-compatible with E OpenVMS Alpha versions.  Using the clustering approach allows you to  E incrementally port your code over, and to ensure you maintain (until  ? you're fully over onto OpenVMS Alpha) common sources as needed.   E    Given that Java isn't available on VAX because Java requires IEEE  I floating point and VAX doesn't have that, Alpha performance is better --  G by definition.  As for Alpha in general, an EV6-class box does fair on  F Java performance.  (I do not have the performance numbers, off-hand.) F Interpreters are and always have been comparatively slow, so anything F you can do to more fully compile your applications will tend to help. H (I remember thinking how slow UCSD p-Code was, and that interpreter was 7 a predecessor to Java from way back in 1980 or so.  :-)   G    I haven't compared Ruby performance with Java, that would certainly   be an interesting project.  A    PHP, Perl and a Ruby port are also all available for OpenVMS,  5 depending on the particular application requirements.   G    And if you are configuring your own CD-R/RW or DVD+R/RW or DVD-R/RW  F drives, do ensure you get one that the AlphaStation XP1000 series can D boot from -- some of the newer IDE/ATAPI drives (which are and were H never officially supported on the box) can't support bootstraps on this 	 platform.    ------------------------------   Date: 15 May 2006 19:54:09 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4cs4j0F17g5rnU1@individual.net>  / In article <_I4ag.498$mL.219@news.cpqcorp.net>, / 	Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > K >> Thanks Hoff.  That answers my qyestion.  I am hoping to acquire a couple K >> of XP1000's and if I do will replace the VAX with at least one and maybe J >> a pair of them, clustered.  I just wanted to know what the impact on myI >> users was likely to be.  Looks like a performance improvement for what G >> they do now.  I guess the next wuestion will be how well it performs  >> doing Java. > F >    The biggest initial impact will be in getting the Alpha binaries F > on-line for all the tools and widgets that folks use.  I'd probably G > first look to cluster the Alpha and the VAX systems together, if you  E > have the licenses for that, and if you can upgrade the OpenVMS VAX  D > software packages up to versions that are cluster-compatible with G > OpenVMS Alpha versions.  Using the clustering approach allows you to  G > incrementally port your code over, and to ensure you maintain (until  A > you're fully over onto OpenVMS Alpha) common sources as needed.   E Not that big a problem really.  The only thing used at this point are E standard VMS tools.  The only piece I have added is SAMBA so they can H bring up their VMS directory in a window next to their fileserver folderF and move files using drag and drop on the Windows boxes (a method theyD are already familiar with, other options gladly acepted).  There areF other things I will want to add to the Alphas, but nothing that was onB the VAX,  Remember, the only class that currently uses VMS uses it' for its COBOL compiler and little else.    > G >    Given that Java isn't available on VAX because Java requires IEEE  K > floating point and VAX doesn't have that, Alpha performance is better --   > by definition.    E Ah yes, but when I mentioned performance, I meant in relation to Java G on other platforms that are already in use.  Compiling COBOL on the VAX F was more than fast enough and DECWindows performance eliicited no realF complaints so I needed to know the Alpha would match that and it seemsF it will.  The Java IDE of choice around here is Eclipse.  I understandE that while it works satisfactorily under Windows XP one professor has G actually tried it under FreeBSD and found it to be unusable (10 minutes G to start up and then often clicking a button after startup can take 3-5 H minutes to do anything!)  Unless someone has already tried this, I won'tF know what it does until I can try it myself.  Obviously, if it is moreD like FreeBSD than Windows, it won't fly.  I guess I should also ask,9 what version of Java is available on VMS?  Hopefully 1,5.   H >                As for Alpha in general, an EV6-class box does fair on H > Java performance.  (I do not have the performance numbers, off-hand.) H > Interpreters are and always have been comparatively slow, so anything H > you can do to more fully compile your applications will tend to help. J > (I remember thinking how slow UCSD p-Code was, and that interpreter was 9 > a predecessor to Java from way back in 1980 or so.  :-)   C And whenever I bring that up people just laugh at me.  I often tell C people here that Java is nothing but The UCSD P-System warmed over.    > I >    I haven't compared Ruby performance with Java, that would certainly   > be an interesting project. > C >    PHP, Perl and a Ruby port are also all available for OpenVMS,  7 > depending on the particular application requirements.   H Possibility of getting someone to do PHP but no one here is playing withB Ruby that I know of and Perl has seen its day come and go already.   > I >    And if you are configuring your own CD-R/RW or DVD+R/RW or DVD-R/RW  H > drives, do ensure you get one that the AlphaStation XP1000 series can F > boot from -- some of the newer IDE/ATAPI drives (which are and were J > never officially supported on the box) can't support bootstraps on this  > platform.   H Have to walk before we can run.  I will be happy to just get a system upF and convince a few people to actually try it.  We won't need to do anyJ disk mastering on VMS for a while.  Especially as no one but me would have  access to the drive anyway.  :-)   bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:00:18 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4468DDC0.EDD39646@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:K > Something else just hit me after I made that posting.  What am I going to I > do with three of those huge VAXen?  :-)  They make my 11/44's look like  > MicroVAX.   E If the cabinet are really just glorified 19" racks, then you can make  good use of the cabinets.   D My all mighty Microvax II was in the big (Q5 /H9642) cabinet. If youG remove the side panels, and extra brackets at the back, you end up with  a 19" rack.   F In the case of the MVII had had a nice power distribution panel at theF base with a huge capacitor to filter out some line noises (include X10E signals to turn things on and off :-( )  This was designed to feed 30  amps.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:07:38 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium) Message-ID: <op.s9lzi0k4zgicya@hyrrokkin>   H On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:52:56 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   wrote:  . > In article <4cs0nuF17ajsiU1@individual.net>,- > 	bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 2 >> In article <jt3ag.487$cC.117@news.cpqcorp.net>,2 >> 	Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes: >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> H >>>> I would imagine those of us who are currently getting by on a VAX  
 >>>> couldJ >>>> work with something a little less.  Just out of curiosity, can anyone6 >>>> tell me how an XP1000 compares to a VAX 7000-640? >>> K >>>    Very nicely, in my experience.  I can set the AlphaStation XP1000 on J >>> my desk, and it hasn't collapsed to the floor yet.  I can also connectH >>> it to an office-grade UPS, too.  Well, without the UPS starting to  	 >>> glow.  >>> K >>>    One of the folks in the community has the AlphaStation XP1000 posted K >>> at circa 260 VUPs, if that helps.  (That's likely an unofficial number; I >>> AFAIK DIGITAL/Compaq/HP hasn't ever posted VUPs numbers more an a few H >>> (if any?) VUPs ratings for systems other than VAX systems.)  The VAXB >>> 7000 model 640 was officially rated somewhere around 125 VUPs. >>> C >>> http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/vups_297.html C >>> http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_tps.html  >>> J >>>    In the latter chart, the VAX 7000 model 640 is 590 units, while theK >>> slowest EV6-class box I can find (an EV6 at 466 MHz) is well over 2,000 G >>> units -- I don't see the AlphaStation (it's a workstation and not a D >>> server, and the workstations tended not to see the same sorts ofH >>> performance testing sequences performed and published) listed in the) >>> server performance comparison charts.  >>> 7 >>>    Most any low-end Integrity server is faster yet.  >>K >> Thanks Hoff.  That answers my qyestion.  I am hoping to acquire a couple K >> of XP1000's and if I do will replace the VAX with at least one and maybe J >> a pair of them, clustered.  I just wanted to know what the impact on myI >> users was likely to be.  Looks like a performance improvement for what G >> they do now.  I guess the next wuestion will be how well it performs  >> doing Java. > K > Something else just hit me after I made that posting.  What am I going to I > do with three of those huge VAXen?  :-)  They make my 11/44's look like  > MicroVAX.  >  Were those 66x0 ?  > bill >    ------------------------------   Date: 15 May 2006 20:21:05 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4cs65gF171ifkU1@individual.net>  , In article <4468DDC0.EDD39646@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:L >> Something else just hit me after I made that posting.  What am I going toJ >> do with three of those huge VAXen?  :-)  They make my 11/44's look like >> MicroVAX. > G > If the cabinet are really just glorified 19" racks, then you can make  > good use of the cabinets.   D I take it you have never seen a 7000.  I could put a bit more than aC 19" rack inside it.  As  matter of fact, I have a Corporate Cabinet C for a PDP-11/24 and I could put the whole thing inside one of these  boxes!!   1 I could put 5 homeless guys inside one of these!!   G But the point is if I replace these with something smaller, I will have ; place to store these and they will need to find a new home.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:20:12 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium/ Message-ID: <0o5ag.506$xO.482@news.cpqcorp.net>   K    Java for OpenVMS Alpha is available for download from the Java web page:   9      <http://h18012.www1.hp.com/java/download/index.html>   F    The JRE and JDK are at V5.0-1, which is based on Java 1.5.<mumble>.  A    I don't know if Eclipse is across to OpenVMS.  NetBeans is an   alternative.  H    [I also don't know if Java performance -- or the AlphaStation XP1000 = series -- will meet your particular local requirements here.]   F    If you have folks using compilers around, then you have (almost by F definition) images around, and if you have images, then you will have I some considerations around moving from OpenVMS VAX to OpenVMS Alpha, and  = these images tend to insinuate themselves into processes and  H environments in interesting and unusual ways.  It might be as simple as E a recompilation and a relink, but you still have to find and perform  1 those steps, or you have to translate the images.   G    For some tools, you might have to perform some remedial work in the  I source code, as I've certainly seen a few old source modules with latent  F bugs, and there certainly are a few old tools that know, um, too much B about the innards and operations of OpenVMS VAX.  Most tools will H rebuild and run, but not all -- though this assumes you have the source  code.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:21:35 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium/ Message-ID: <jp5ag.508$JN.492@news.cpqcorp.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:. > In article <4468a911$1@news.langstoeger.at>,; > 	peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes:  > s >>In article <hkqafErlOKj5@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:  >>a >>>In article <iF19g.415$Xg5.33@news.cpqcorp.net>, Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:  >>>  >>> K >>>>  Whether you view these prices as affordable, of course, is obviously  
 >>>>relative.  >>>  >>>   I got my EV5 for $50.  >>. >>And I got mine for free. What is your point?. >>Nowadays, you need EV6 (and up) or ITANIC... >> >  > I > I would imagine those of us who are currently getting by on a VAX could G > work with something a little less.  Just out of curiosity, can anyone 3 > tell me how an XP1000 compares to a VAX 7000-640?  >  > bill >   I Here is another data point.  I have a copy of the Dhrystone benchmark in  G Pascal.  Using the latest compilers and using VMS V7.3 on VAX and V8.2  G on Alpha here are some numbers in dhrystones/second (larger is better).   7 VAX 7000-840                 163880.7 dhrystones/second % XP1000 (667mhz)             4273504.0    --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------   Date: 15 May 2006 20:23:13 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4cs69hF171ifkU2@individual.net>  ) In article <op.s9lzi0k4zgicya@hyrrokkin>, & 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: >  > Were those 66x0 ?   . Do you mean the VAX?  No, they are 7000-640's.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 15 May 2006 13:53:39 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on ItaniumB Message-ID: <1147726419.446349.21670@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>   Verne wrote:C > I attended one of these porting classes last July ... and several H > people said, when we introduced ourselves, that they were there solelyC > to learn more about OpenVMS on Integrity and "kick the tires" and I > clearly said they brought no software with them ... and AFAIK, they got , > their $2,000 box a few weeks later anyway. >  > Verne   E That's very encouraging.  Hoff, sorry to have sounded so down before. D I was making an assumption that since HP was providing a workstation: that looks to be somewhere around $6K retail for $2K, plusD approximately 40hrs of handholding time by some probably fairly highF priced employees might be a bit finicky if you didn't actually show upD to port a usefull peice of software which might further the sales ofH VMS on IA64 hardware.  Just my pessimistic streak showing, I guess.  ;-)   ------------------------------   Date: 15 May 2006 21:36:38 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4csaj6F178hg7U1@individual.net>  / In article <0o5ag.506$xO.482@news.cpqcorp.net>, / 	Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:  > M >    Java for OpenVMS Alpha is available for download from the Java web page:  > ; >      <http://h18012.www1.hp.com/java/download/index.html>  > H >    The JRE and JDK are at V5.0-1, which is based on Java 1.5.<mumble>. > 4 >    I don't know if Eclipse is across to OpenVMS.    E It's supposed to be written in Java so it shold be able to run as is,  I would have thought.   C >                                                   NetBeans is an   > alternative.  C Yeah, but that would be a step backwards and steps backwards do not  help sell ideas.   > J >    [I also don't know if Java performance -- or the AlphaStation XP1000 ? > series -- will meet your particular local requirements here.]  > H >    If you have folks using compilers around, then you have (almost by H > definition) images around, and if you have images, then you will have K > some considerations around moving from OpenVMS VAX to OpenVMS Alpha, and  ? > these images tend to insinuate themselves into processes and  J > environments in interesting and unusual ways.  It might be as simple as G > a recompilation and a relink, but you still have to find and perform  3 > those steps, or you have to translate the images.  > I >    For some tools, you might have to perform some remedial work in the  K > source code, as I've certainly seen a few old source modules with latent  H > bugs, and there certainly are a few old tools that know, um, too much D > about the innards and operations of OpenVMS VAX.  Most tools will J > rebuild and run, but not all -- though this assumes you have the source  > code.   G You are thinking too much along the lines of business customers.  These I are students.  What programs they do are not persistant.  Maybe, in time, F this will change, but at the moment the only one who might want to re-G compile his programs are the professor who teaches the course that uses G COBOL who may have examples he wants to keep running.  But, again, this F is not a course to teach COBOL.  COBOL is merely the best language forE teaching the concepts he wants the students to learn so these are not J fancy programs and should compile under any COBOL compiler without change.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 15 May 2006 21:38:03 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium, Message-ID: <4csalrF178hg7U2@individual.net>  / In article <jp5ag.508$JN.492@news.cpqcorp.net>, ) 	John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:/ >> In article <4468a911$1@news.langstoeger.at>, < >> 	peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes: >>  t >>>In article <hkqafErlOKj5@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> b >>>>In article <iF19g.415$Xg5.33@news.cpqcorp.net>, Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes: >>>> >>>>L >>>>>  Whether you view these prices as affordable, of course, is obviously  >>>>>relative. >>>> >>>>   I got my EV5 for $50. >>> / >>>And I got mine for free. What is your point? / >>>Nowadays, you need EV6 (and up) or ITANIC...  >>>  >>   >>  J >> I would imagine those of us who are currently getting by on a VAX couldH >> work with something a little less.  Just out of curiosity, can anyone4 >> tell me how an XP1000 compares to a VAX 7000-640? >>   >> bill  >>   > K > Here is another data point.  I have a copy of the Dhrystone benchmark in  I > Pascal.  Using the latest compilers and using VMS V7.3 on VAX and V8.2  I > on Alpha here are some numbers in dhrystones/second (larger is better).  > 9 > VAX 7000-840                 163880.7 dhrystones/second ' > XP1000 (667mhz)             4273504.0   J Well, if it's going to be 40 time as fast as a 7000-840 I will accept thatG it will be percieved to be at least as fast as wht they are used to and  probably faster.  :-)    bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 22:30:45 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>   Subject: Re: Hobbyist on Itanium9 Message-ID: <EvidnW-Ebfn6pfTZnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d@libcom.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:. > In article <4468DDC0.EDD39646@teksavvy.com>,2 > 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: M >>> Something else just hit me after I made that posting.  What am I going to K >>> do with three of those huge VAXen?  :-)  They make my 11/44's look like 
 >>> MicroVAX. H >> If the cabinet are really just glorified 19" racks, then you can make >> good use of the cabinets. > F > I take it you have never seen a 7000.  I could put a bit more than aE > 19" rack inside it.  As  matter of fact, I have a Corporate Cabinet E > for a PDP-11/24 and I could put the whole thing inside one of these 	 > boxes!!  > 3 > I could put 5 homeless guys inside one of these!!  > I > But the point is if I replace these with something smaller, I will have = > place to store these and they will need to find a new home.  >  > bill >   ) Why do you suppose you got them so cheap?   ! Almost as bad as hazardous waste.   $ Might be considered hazardous waste.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:41:07 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG7 Subject: Re: MacOS-X & drive/file sharing with OpenVMS? 0 Message-ID: <00A55BAD.AEB75108@SendSpamHere.ORG>  [ In article <ih7a4e.a3c.ln@news.hus-soft.de>, Albrecht Schlosser <ajs567@tiscali.de> writes:  >  >  >Christoph Gartmann wrote: > J >> what is a way to have some sort of "personal share" between OpenVMS andK >> MacOS-X? With old AppleTalk there was Pathworks for Macintosh (MSA). Now Q >> is there something similar with OS-X? Any ideas (besides Pathworks for Windows , >> and using Windows networking on the Mac)? > C >Samba? If smbmount is available for OS-X, then OpenVMS can be the  / >server. Not used, not tested, just an idea ;-)     $ Or, Finder > Go . Connect to Server     Enter: smb://servername/username   Prompts for password.    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:46:26 +0800 - From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> 7 Subject: Re: MacOS-X & drive/file sharing with OpenVMS? * Message-ID: <44695922.5090202@bigpond.com>    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:] > In article <ih7a4e.a3c.ln@news.hus-soft.de>, Albrecht Schlosser <ajs567@tiscali.de> writes:  >> >> Christoph Gartmann wrote: >>K >>> what is a way to have some sort of "personal share" between OpenVMS and L >>> MacOS-X? With old AppleTalk there was Pathworks for Macintosh (MSA). NowR >>> is there something similar with OS-X? Any ideas (besides Pathworks for Windows- >>> and using Windows networking on the Mac)? E >> Samba? If smbmount is available for OS-X, then OpenVMS can be the  1 >> server. Not used, not tested, just an idea ;-)  >  > & > Or, Finder > Go . Connect to Server  > " > Enter: smb://servername/username >  > Prompts for password.  >   7 Can you give some more detail about your configuration? - I have never been able to get this to work...    Regards, Dave --  D David B Sneddon (dbs)  VMS Systems Programmer  dbsneddon@bigpond.comD Sneddo's quick guide ...     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/D DBS freeware ... http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm   ------------------------------    Date: 15 May 2006 11:40:17 -0700 From: m.whitby@gmail.com) Subject: Re: Millenium Impcon data export B Message-ID: <1147718417.663327.30680@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>  G Hi everyone, thanks for your input so far - most appreciated. To follow  up some of your answers:  H > the DDIF converters have the capabvility to export an RMS file to comaB > or tab separated, but I have never gotten it to work because the2 > documentation is just not clear (or  incomplete0  H > DATATRIEVE or ALLIN1 can map to an indexed file and extract your data.  9 > even DCL can do it, although it won't be too efficient.   G I will have a look into these programs, thanks for the mention of them.   G > 1) Negotiate with the vendor for a one-time use fee.  (They might not  > charge for this.)   7 Unfortuanatly they are not interested in this solution.   I > 2) How did the license expire?  If it's date based, you might get it to J > work by changing the system date.  Note, I'm not suggesting that such beH > used to defeat any licensing.  However, as a one-time usage to extractF > data, some might argue that the practice should be Ok.  Others might > argue that it isn't.  G I have tried this already, I apologise as I did not mention it earlier. B Once the clock was set back the bridge let me look at a listing ofG tables but came up with a license expiry message when those tables were  queried.  C A couple of people have mentioned consultants - this is an option I G will look into though I would prefer to do it myself although I'm quite @ willing to accept it could quite possibly take me too long to do without the correct knowledge.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:55:20 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ) Subject: Re: Millenium Impcon data export , Message-ID: <4468DC95.C381C729@teksavvy.com>   m.whitby@gmail.com wrote: I > > 1) Negotiate with the vendor for a one-time use fee.  (They might not  > > charge for this.)  > 9 > Unfortuanatly they are not interested in this solution.   E What you should then argue with the vendor is that he should tell you H how to access YOUR data, at the very least access the tables showing howF fields are mapped to the records and how to interpret the fields. (eg: the OBDC mapping).  F Without the mapping of fields, you can't go anywhere unless you take aB look at the records ( DUMP/RECORD is your friend here) and reverse engineer the mapping yourself.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:11:08 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ( Subject: Re: MIME bug: escaped filenames, Message-ID: <4468E049.82270709@teksavvy.com>   Paul Mosteika wrote:L > field. I also tried to place the kit(s) on a public WEB page, but the idea > was nixed.  F Whoever nixed the idea should have his name made public, attached to aF wooden pole on top of a pile of very dry wood, lapidated, and then theE pile of dry wood set on fire by having people throw cauldrons full of E very hot burning deep frying oil (and things worse by using some used * oil that still smells of french fries)....  G If the authorities nixed the idea, perhaps the patch could be leaked to G a hobbyist who could then covertly put it on his web site to let people 4 download it without DEC/Compaq/HP knowing about it ?  ( (I am a hobbyist and I have a web site).   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:24:39 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)( Subject: Re: MIME bug: escaped filenames2 Message-ID: <06051519243943_20200393@antinode.org>  , From: "Paul Mosteika" <paul.mosteika@hp.com>  J > > Like the left-over temporary files every time I extract an attachment   > > using "MIME Version: V1.8"?   G > I need a little more information than that to understand the problem.       Here's an example:    alp $ dg   Directory ALP$DKA0:[SMS.MIME]   F DISK.MAIL;1              629  15-DEC-2004 13:20:02.19  (RWED,RWED,RE,)   Total of 1 file, 629 blocks.  
 alp $ mime   MIME> show version MIME Version: V1.8 MIME> open DISK.MAIL Message Headers:&         Content-Type:  multipart/mixed3         Content-Transfer-Encoding:  7bit/8Bit ASCII    Attachment: 1 !         Content-Type:  text/plain 4         Content-Transfer-Encoding:  Quoted-printable   Attachment: 2 !         Content-Type:  image/jpeg )         Content-Disposition:  attachment;            filename="IBMHD.jpg"*         Content-Transfer-Encoding:  Base64 MIME> extr /att = 2 # %MIME-I-SAVEFILE, saving file . . . 	 IBMHD.JPG 
 MIME> exit     alp $ dg   Directory ALP$DKA0:[SMS.MIME]   F DISK.MAIL;1              629  15-DEC-2004 13:20:02.19  (RWED,RWED,RE,)F IBMHD.JPG;1              455  15-MAY-2006 19:23:57.34  (RWED,RWED,RE,) MIME$2020743C_IBMHD.JPG;1 F                          455  15-MAY-2006 19:23:46.64  (RWED,RWED,RE,)   Total of 3 files, 1539 blocks.    4 It's the MIME$2020743C_IBMHD.JPG;1 which bothers me.  ; alp $ backup /compare IBMHD.JPG;1 MIME$2020743C_IBMHD.JPG;1  alp $   C One copy of the extracted attachment would have been plenty for me.     G > [...]  I also tried to place the kit(s) on a public WEB page, but the  > idea was nixed.   ?    [Insert unprintable ejaculation here.]  I'd love to hear the C reasoning behind that one, if any.  Let's imagine...  Non-VMS users F might steal the executable code and reconstruct a MIME utility for useE elsewhere, depriving HP of no actual revenue?  Non-support-paying VMS D users (like me) might get access to a less awful MIME utility, whichF would have been the only possible reason for paying for support in theI first place?  HP doesn't have an FTP server which could handle the load?  
 I give up.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------    Date: 15 May 2006 15:49:49 -0700C From: "AlexNOSPAMDaniels@themail.co.uk" <alexdaniels@themail.co.uk>  Subject: Re: Opinions C Message-ID: <1147733389.812671.290480@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>    John Reagan wrote:( > AlexNOSPAMDaniels@themail.co.uk wrote: >  > > + > > 13. Avoid Alphas with CPUs prior to EV6  > >  > J > 13.1. Use /ARCH=HOST when compiling on newer CPUs to tell compilers theyH > can generate the newer instructions available on the newer CPUs.  JustA > beware about moving .EXEs to older CPUs that don't have the new # > instructions - emulation is slow.    Hi John,  C I'd certainlly go along with that one, and I'd add /OPT=(TUNE=HOST)  too.  E I use those with most code I build, and I've have some sucess getting F open source packages, to offer them as an option / switch in the their builds.   D While we're on the subject, and this I suspect something you'll knowF about, the 8.3 New Features mention MACRO32 is now built against a newA version of GEM, and has "added a new /ARCHITECTURE DCL qualifier"  (Table 1-1 and section 5.8).  E However that seemed to be in prior versions.. I've just checked V8.2, & V7.3-2 and V7.3-1 and it's there too..  $ $ write sys$output f$gets("version") V7.3-1 $ help mac/alpha qualif /arch      MACRO      /ALPHA       Qualifiers         /ARCHITECTURE=option  3            Determines which instructions are legal.  <SNIP>  ( $ pip verb macro|sea sys$pipe "architec"'    qualifier ARCHITECTURE, nonnegatable 0    qualifier ARCHITECTURE, nonnegatable, default  D Does it not work / should it not be used with MACRO32 prior to 8.3 ?   Thanks as ever.    Alex   ------------------------------    Date: 15 May 2006 11:53:45 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.C Message-ID: <1147719225.311078.213760@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   ? "2.  Mostly because I am more familiar with Unix and hence find =     it easier to do certain tasks.  These may be equally easy :     in VMS but I simply don't know how to do it there.  An>     example is to determine the current/working directory.  In=     Unix, the command 'pwd' provides that info.  I know of no      analogous command in VMS. "      $ PWD :== "SHOW DEFAULT"  - that is the beauty of vms, you can define any , environment you want with symbols ... didn't you help this guy out Bill?    ------------------------------   Date: 15 May 2006 19:32:37 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cs3alF17a97qU1@individual.net>  C In article <1147719225.311078.213760@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,  	bob@instantwhip.com writes:A > "2.  Mostly because I am more familiar with Unix and hence find ? >     it easier to do certain tasks.  These may be equally easy < >     in VMS but I simply don't know how to do it there.  An@ >     example is to determine the current/working directory.  In? >     Unix, the command 'pwd' provides that info.  I know of no ! >     analogous command in VMS. "  >  >  > $ PWD :== "SHOW DEFAULT"  - As I (and others have) said, a very bad idea.    > / > that is the beauty of vms, you can define any ( > environment you want with symbols ...   ! Exactly the same is true of Unix.   . >                                       didn't > you help this guy out Bill?   : Not being a mind reader, I couldn't help him til he asked.> No one has ever asked me anything about VMS.  But then, that's; part of the problem.  Why would anyone ask about an OS they  think is dead.   bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 15 May 2006 20:28:57 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4cs6k9F171ifkU3@individual.net>  9 In article <ctSdnViM5pbhfvXZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@libcom.com>, * 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > bob@instantwhip.com wrote:B >> "2.  Mostly because I am more familiar with Unix and hence find@ >>     it easier to do certain tasks.  These may be equally easy= >>     in VMS but I simply don't know how to do it there.  An A >>     example is to determine the current/working directory.  In @ >>     Unix, the command 'pwd' provides that info.  I know of no" >>     analogous command in VMS. " >>   >>   >> $ PWD :== "SHOW DEFAULT"  >>  0 >> that is the beauty of vms, you can define any/ >> environment you want with symbols ... didn't  >> you help this guy out Bill? >>   > I > The purpose of asking, and reporting here, was to understand where the  G > users were coming from.  I'm sure many were surprised by the lack of  H > knowledge of the SHOW command.  That's a bit of what we learned, that 1 > users just didn't know about some VMS commands.  > K > Now the job(s) are to find out how they were so unaware, and how to have  ; > things so that more users would be aware of capabilities.  > K > I'm afraid that gets back to being aware of VMS, and that of course gets   > back to marketing. >   @ So, who is up for writting "VMS in a Nutshell"?  And then, would' O'Reilly even be willing to publish it?    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:28:25 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.9 Message-ID: <ctSdnViM5pbhfvXZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@libcom.com>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote:A > "2.  Mostly because I am more familiar with Unix and hence find ? >     it easier to do certain tasks.  These may be equally easy < >     in VMS but I simply don't know how to do it there.  An@ >     example is to determine the current/working directory.  In? >     Unix, the command 'pwd' provides that info.  I know of no ! >     analogous command in VMS. "  >  >  > $ PWD :== "SHOW DEFAULT" > / > that is the beauty of vms, you can define any . > environment you want with symbols ... didn't > you help this guy out Bill?  >   G The purpose of asking, and reporting here, was to understand where the  E users were coming from.  I'm sure many were surprised by the lack of  F knowledge of the SHOW command.  That's a bit of what we learned, that / users just didn't know about some VMS commands.   I Now the job(s) are to find out how they were so unaware, and how to have  9 things so that more users would be aware of capabilities.   I I'm afraid that gets back to being aware of VMS, and that of course gets   back to marketing.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 15 May 2006 13:48:29 -0700- From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.C Message-ID: <1147726109.535740.324470@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:E > In article <1147719225.311078.213760@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,  > 	bob@instantwhip.com writes:C > > "2.  Mostly because I am more familiar with Unix and hence find A > >     it easier to do certain tasks.  These may be equally easy > > >     in VMS but I simply don't know how to do it there.  AnB > >     example is to determine the current/working directory.  InA > >     Unix, the command 'pwd' provides that info.  I know of no # > >     analogous command in VMS. "  > >  > >  > > $ PWD :== "SHOW DEFAULT" > / > As I (and others have) said, a very bad idea.  >  > > 1 > > that is the beauty of vms, you can define any ) > > environment you want with symbols ...  > # > Exactly the same is true of Unix.  > 0 > >                                       didn't > > you help this guy out Bill?  > < > Not being a mind reader, I couldn't help him til he asked.@ > No one has ever asked me anything about VMS.  But then, that's= > part of the problem.  Why would anyone ask about an OS they  > think is dead.  E Sounds like the VMS marketing (oxymoron alert!) mantra: Why should we = spend money marketing something that everyone thinks is dead?   C How have *you* advertised/marketed VMS to your organization? You're E running old VAX and people who *do* look at your VMS are comparing it C to (I suspect) newer systems & OS releases --- and ain't it amazing ! that they don't prefer using VMS!   C You've said how difficult and unintuitive DCL is, so I must presume E that you (and your users) needed no instruction before using pwd, ls- B l, cat, man, and such? I guess I'm just stupid because I needed toF spend quite a bit of time learning that shell crap (korn? borne? porn?F dang, I never can remember which is which!) and since I don't use *nixB that often, I need to use a "cheat sheet" or waste my life in man.  ? Now, in the world of computers, obscure and cryptic things have D *always* been most attractive to students of geek. Face it; commandsG like directory, help and show default are pretty boring compared to ls, D man and pwd. The more cryptic the better. If you doubt that, look at kids' text messaging & IM.   But life goes on.  ---   E In another post you asked about "VMS in a Nutshell"; if you spend any E time at all looking on-line you'll find a ton of resource. check out:   . <http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wbt/pc/welcome.htm>  
 for starters.    ===    ------------------------------   Date: 15 May 2006 21:56:55 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4csbp7F17igdjU1@individual.net>  C In article <1147726109.535740.324470@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>, 0 	"Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:F >> In article <1147719225.311078.213760@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, >> 	bob@instantwhip.com writes: D >> > "2.  Mostly because I am more familiar with Unix and hence findB >> >     it easier to do certain tasks.  These may be equally easy? >> >     in VMS but I simply don't know how to do it there.  An C >> >     example is to determine the current/working directory.  In B >> >     Unix, the command 'pwd' provides that info.  I know of no$ >> >     analogous command in VMS. " >> > >> > >> > $ PWD :== "SHOW DEFAULT"  >>0 >> As I (and others have) said, a very bad idea. >> >> >2 >> > that is the beauty of vms, you can define any* >> > environment you want with symbols ... >>$ >> Exactly the same is true of Unix. >>1 >> >                                       didn't   >> > you help this guy out Bill? >>= >> Not being a mind reader, I couldn't help him til he asked. A >> No one has ever asked me anything about VMS.  But then, that's > >> part of the problem.  Why would anyone ask about an OS they >> think is dead.  > G > Sounds like the VMS marketing (oxymoron alert!) mantra: Why should we ? > spend money marketing something that everyone thinks is dead?  >    OK, let's shoot the messenger.  ? > How have *you* advertised/marketed VMS to your organization?     Not my job, man.  F >                                                               You'reG > running old VAX and people who *do* look at your VMS are comparing it E > to (I suspect) newer systems & OS releases --- and ain't it amazing # > that they don't prefer using VMS!   H Hey, anytime you want to have a couple of Itaniums with licenses for theG OS and all the layered products sent to me, I'll be glad to put them up E and make them available.  I run what I can get, you should be able to $ figure out the alternative yourself.   > E > You've said how difficult and unintuitive DCL is, so I must presume G > that you (and your users) needed no instruction before using pwd, ls- D > l, cat, man, and such? I guess I'm just stupid because I needed toH > spend quite a bit of time learning that shell crap (korn? borne? porn?H > dang, I never can remember which is which!) and since I don't use *nixD > that often, I need to use a "cheat sheet" or waste my life in man.  J So, what's your point?  How hard or easy Unix is to learn isn't the issue.E Unix vendors aren't having a hard time selling it.  Unix share of the K market is still going up.  Perception is reality.  And people's (even those G with extensive previous VMS experience) is that it is dead.  Some of us K are trying to do something about that. If one of the problems is that users I find VMS to be more esoteric than Unix, then so be it.  Telling them they 4 are wrong or idiots isn't going to help VMS one bit.   > A > Now, in the world of computers, obscure and cryptic things have F > *always* been most attractive to students of geek. Face it; commandsI > like directory, help and show default are pretty boring compared to ls, F > man and pwd. The more cryptic the better. If you doubt that, look at > kids' text messaging & IM.  G Yeah, and most of them aren't geeks.  So where does that put your idea? J You know, insulting your potential audience is not going to win them over.H If I handed out insults like this everytime someone complained about notH understanding something in VMS they would find a very simple solution toG the problem.  They would just stay on Unix.  Oh wait, looks like that's ; pretty much what has been happening for the past 2 decades.    >  > But life goes on.   1 Not for VMS if something isn't done to change it.    > ---  > G > In another post you asked about "VMS in a Nutshell"; if you spend any G > time at all looking on-line you'll find a ton of resource. check out:  > 0 > <http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wbt/pc/welcome.htm> >  > for starters.   E I will have to assume that you know nothing about the "in a NUtshell" B series of books.  Just having a book in the series can be a prettyF powerfull marketing tool.  I have looked on-line.  There are little ifF any resources to compare to things like an O'Reilly book.  The on-lineH documentation is interesting, but not targeted at the beginner.  I thinkI the whole purpose of putting it all on-line was not to make it easier for E the user, but to get out of the publishing business.  Of course, AT&T C accomplished that by turning all their printed documentation (which 9 mimics the online documentation) to a publishing company.   4 Let me know if you ever have any constructive ideas.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 00:45:47 +0200 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.: Message-ID: <5705c$4469049c$50db5015$1149@news.hispeed.ch>   Bob Koehler wrote:   <snip>  I >    It's usefull to "set default nla0:" and dig out assumptions in code.  >  As VMSINSTAL.COM does:   $set default missing:[missing]   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 01:00:23 +0200 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.: Message-ID: <15161$44690808$50db5015$1473@news.hispeed.ch>   Alan Greig wrote:  >  >  > Bob Koehler wrote: > G >> In article <4cmnomF16qdnuU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill   >> Gunshannon) writes: >> >>E >>> How is someone totally unfamiliar with VMS supposed to know about C >>> some obscure concept like "LOGICALS" and what all of them might  >>> be?  >> >> >>J >>    Obscure?  UNIX is the only OS I've used that has no similar concept. >>  >>    VMS and RSX have logicals. >>+ >>    TOPS-20 and Windows have redirection.  >  > F > TOPS-20 also had logicals (DEFINE command strangely enough). So did 2 > TOPS-10 but not as complete (the ASSIGN command) >   F RT-11 also had ASS (short for ASSIGN)m though as far as I remember it  was only for devices.   B >>    OS/360 had predefined names you could reference in DD cards. >>	 >>    ...   F it was a piece of cake on DOS/VSE (4300 series) to redirect both card H reader and punch to a disk file, once you knew how. It did baffle those - who'd always had those pieces of hardware :-)    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:34:11 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)  Subject: Re: TCPIP 5.4 anti-spam$ Message-ID: <e4al3j$8e0$1@online.de>  5 In article <4467E34C.540B797E@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei ' <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:     > Field1: Item1, > Tab Item2, > Tab Item3  > Field2: Value2  I OK.  Probably taken over from unix-land.  Still, the example has a comma   between every pair of items.   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:36:48 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: TCPIP START MAIL $ Message-ID: <e4al8f$8e0$2@online.de>  5 In article <4467E920.A768D6D6@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei ' <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:    I > Don't ever trust what in the the "To:" field of the header. What counts F > is in what in the SMTP dialogue (RFC821). That is where the MTAs are$ > told who to deliver the emails to.  I In this case, it was actually addressed to the superset of a domain I do  I accept mail for.  Due to a typo, I actually received mail for this for a  F while, and noticed it on the bounces.  They might just be looking for G somewhere to route mail to the main domain, and tried addresses in the  H subdomain.  (I know the administrator of the main domain; it isn't even  used for mail!)    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:23:48 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>: Subject: Re: Trying to upgrade to 7.3 - Strange Disk Image/ Message-ID: <UG3ag.489$9J.427@news.cpqcorp.net>    Gary Parker wrote:K >     I'm trying to upgrade my Hobbyist-licensed VAX 4000-500 from OpenVMS  I > 7.2 to 7.3. I have the 7.2 install media but unfortunately not the 7.3  K > media. All I have is a 523MB file called 'vaxvms073.img' that I'm unsure   > what to do with.  F    I'd block-burn it to a CD.  I'd then boot the VAX from it to start G the standalone BACKUP and the full (overwrite) INSTALL.    If you want  H to UPGRADE your existing environment, then MOUNT/OVERRIDE=ID the CD and I then @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL the VMS073 kit from the CD [000000] directory.   I    Once you have the CD burned, you can follow the standard installation  G and upgrade documentation for OpenVMS VAX from the OpenVMS manuals, in   other words.    J > Trying to mount it as an ISO9660 image on my various *nix boxen results $ > in unknown file-system type errors  I    The disk is an ODS-2 volume structure, by the look of it.  That's the  D usual disk volume structure format used for OpenVMS VAX bootstraps. H It's also not a volume structure that Microsoft Windows, Linux nor Unix D support by default.  And it's also not an ISO-9660 volume structure.  % > and cdwriting software on *nix and   > Windows also refuses.   G    Eh?  I burn raw disk images all the time.  So long as you perform a  A block, binary, raw or the ISO (no relation to ISO-9660) burn (or  H whatever your particular chosen recording tool calls it), you should be F OK with most any Windows or Unix or Linux CD recording tool.  (If the G recording tool is allowed to try to interpret or to re-format the disk  E image, however, you may well encounter the problems you appear to be   reporting.)    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:11:03 GMT * From: Gary Parker <g.j.parker@lboro.ac.uk>: Subject: Re: Trying to upgrade to 7.3 - Strange Disk Image4 Message-ID: <2006051520153416807-gjparker@lboroacuk>  L On 2006-05-15 18:48:12 +0100, klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) said: > J > 2.  If you have an extra disk on your VAX, boot your 7.2 system and loadL > LDDRIVER (available on the net and on the Freeware CDs, I think).  "Mount"I > the .img file as a LD disk, then do an image backup to your spare disk. + > Shutdown the VAX and boot the spare disk.   G Thanks Keith, using LDDRIVER worked a treat, now I just need to find a  ) few spare hours to carry out the upgrade.    Gary   ------------------------------    Date: 15 May 2006 20:46:28 -04003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> 3 Subject: Re: VMS indexed files - how did they work? . Message-ID: <mddhd3qaja3.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  * Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> writes:   > Bob Koehler wrote:  0 >> In article <gX09g.52$qq4.17@news.oracle.com>,K >> lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman) writes:   9 >>> (Anyone know if/when TOPS implemented indexed files?)   2 >>    TOPS-10 and -20 had byte-stream file sytems.  J > Well TOPS-10 was really just block I/O with the user managing their own I > buffers for byte streams. TOPS-20 fully supported byte stream I/O with  F > bytes of any length (7 bit ascii the most common). TOPS-20 also did  > memory mapped file I/O.   N Tops-20 *supported* byte streams.  The underlying mechanism, that is, what theM OS did to implement them, was memory-mapped I/O using the same virtual memory 5 as the paging system for memory management generally.    --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. 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