1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 18 May 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 275       Contents:# Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9 # Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9 # Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9 % Re: DirectColor visuals in DecWindows $ Flight performance hiccup (decnet ?)( Re: Flight performance hiccup (decnet ?)* LP ECO's (was: SWS-2.1 (Apache) question?) Performance and Disk Size  Re: Performance and Disk Size 7 Re: problem using mail from php-script in apache server  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll.  Re: Results of my straw poll. 0 Re: speeding up LAVC with switch instead of hub?0 Re: speeding up LAVC with switch instead of hub?0 Re: speeding up LAVC with switch instead of hub?0 Re: speeding up LAVC with switch instead of hub?0 Re: speeding up LAVC with switch instead of hub? Re: SWS-2.1 (Apache) question? Re: SWS-2.1 (Apache) question? Re: SWS-2.1 (Apache) question?L TCPIP Configuration -TCPIP-E-BIND_NO_ZONEXFR, zone transfer was unsuccessfulP Re: TCPIP Configuration -TCPIP-E-BIND_NO_ZONEXFR, zone transfer was unsuccessfulP Re: TCPIP Configuration -TCPIP-E-BIND_NO_ZONEXFR, zone transfer was unsuccessfulP Re: TCPIP Configuration -TCPIP-E-BIND_NO_ZONEXFR, zone transfer was unsuccessful# Re: Thundering Hurd pacing HP gains # Re: Thundering Hurd pacing HP gains # Re: Thundering Hurd pacing HP gains # Re: Thundering Hurd pacing HP gains / Re: what should Bad-Clients: in SMTP.CONFIG do? / Re: what should Bad-Clients: in SMTP.CONFIG do? / Re: what should Bad-Clients: in SMTP.CONFIG do?  Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware  Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware  Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware  Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware B Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9)B Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9)B Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9)B Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9)B Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9)B Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9)B Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9)  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:01:11 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>, Subject: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9* Message-ID: <H4Uag.3806$RY2.1899@trnddc02>   Brian MacNamara wrote:F > Oops, now that was brilliant of me.  Sorry -- the system just hangs A > solidly at that point - no further response, no messages, nada.  >  > Sorry about that!  >  > /Brian >  > " > David B Sneddon - bigpond wrote: > ( >> Brian MacNamara mentioned in passing: >>
 >>> Hi Folks,  >>> I >>> I have a Digital Personal Workstation 500AU, which is running great,  G >>> and we're trying to set up an alternate system.  Unfortunately all  J >>> the altenates (we've tried 3) have new firmware (V7.2-1), and our VMS F >>> (7.3-2) disk fails to boot past the point of DECnet starting.  It F >>> does, of course, work flawlessly on the one machine with V6.9 SRM 
 >>> firmware.  >> >> >>5 >> Exactly what happens when it fails?  Crash?  Hang?  >> Any messages on the console?   H It seems more likely to me that the problem is the Ethernet interface(s)G or cables or switch/hub ports or the settings of the EWA0_MODE and like $ console variables than the firmware.  H The reason I think firmware is a last resort is that new firmware almostE always works with old O/S releases.  Sometimes new O/S versions don't F work with old firmware, but they almost always tell you, very early inH the boot (long before starting DECnet) what the minimum firmware versionG is and halt fairly nicely.  Out of all the hundreds if not thousands of E combinations of firmware versions, O/S versions, hardware types, etc. H over the years, there have only been a handful of cases where they broke1 something that prevented backwards compatibility.   B Is it DECnet-IV or DECnet-V (aka DECnet-Plus?)  IV changes the NICB address to a mapping of the DECnet address (AA-00-...), so if both@ the old and new systems are up at the same time, and on the same? Ethernet segment or switch, everything would get really, really F confused.  (I wouldn't expect this to wedge VMS, just keep the network$ from working, but you never know...)  > If you have a scratch disk on one of the newer machines, and a@ CD drive, you could try a test install a later version of VMS on' it, but my guess is it would break too.   ? You can get a lot more info from the boot by enabling debugging   messages with boot flag 16, i.e.      >>> boot disk -fl 0,65536   Also, do a console command      >>> show ew*   C to see the ethernet device settings.  (ewa0_mode, etc. apply to the B first ethernet device, ewb0_mode, etc. to the second ethernet, andB so on.)  I think version before 7.3-1 had problems autonegotiating> speed and duplex, so the default setting for ew*0_mode which I/ think is "autonegotiate", might cause problems.     B Try booting with the network cable disconnected.  It will complain  about it, but should keep going.    H Then again, it may be that in fact DECnet was the last thing that workedB in the startup, and it's something later that is breaking.  Do youA have any external disk drives that weren't connected to your test C systems?  Maybe it's just in a really long timeout waiting for them  to show up?    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:06:04 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> , Subject: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9) Message-ID: <op.s9qz0efxzgicya@hyrrokkin>   C A related question.  Apparently there was no problem installing the C firmware on the PWS.  I tried on an XP1000 and it would not upgrade H and when VMS boots (7.3m 7.3-1, 7,3-2 8.2 or 8.3) it complains about the; old firmware.  Seems odd since the PWS is an older machine.   1 Anybody have a pointer to a compatibility matrix?   B Is there a getsyi call to see what the version of the firmware is?   Tom     5 On Wed, 17 May 2006 20:27:16 -0700, Brian MacNamara   % <macnamara@hedgehoghollow.com> wrote:  > Hi Dan and all,  > J > Yes, you have it right -- when we have the disk in the system with the  L > V6.9 fw, it boots just fine.  Put it into any of the systems with V7.2-1  K > and it hangs at the point where it would start DECnet (we don't see the   " > messages that it's starting up). > K > As far as we can tell the h/w is identical.  I don't have access to the   L > system right here, and I don't have usenet access from work -- I'll have  J > to arrange to get the other info to post later because of that - I can  K > tell you we are using a wide 18gb drive in a wide storageworks cabinet.   K >   We have also run this on at least one other 500AU with 6.9 FW and had   J > no problems.  Also, using the same cable/storageworks cabinet makes no  
 > difference.  > L > We haven't gone the route of the conversational boot, yet.  It seemed to  L > be tied to the firmware so rather than digging deeply into that, we felt  F > trying to eliminate the last difference between the systems was an   > approprate route.  >  > Thanks for the thoughts. >  > /Brian >  > Dan Foster wrote: F >> In article <446bdb49$0$2629$af4e6cc9@news.usenetguide.com>, Brian  2 >> MacNamara <macnamara@hedgehoghollow.com> wrote: >>J >>> I have a Digital Personal Workstation 500AU, which is running great,  L >>> and we're trying to set up an alternate system.  Unfortunately all the  G >>> altenates (we've tried 3) have new firmware (V7.2-1), and our VMS   G >>> (7.3-2) disk fails to boot past the point of DECnet starting.  It   G >>> does, of course, work flawlessly on the one machine with V6.9 SRM   
 >>> firmware. ( >>   So if I'm understanding this right:E >>  	You have also tried taking the drive from the 7.2-1 firmware box I >> and put it in the 6.9 firmware box, and it booted fine. But as soon as E >> it was back in the 7.2-1 firmware box, it doesn't. Bring it to 6.9  >> again, it works fine.B >>  	Is that exactly right? (And that you have indeed tried this?)D >>  	Are the hardware for the systems you mentioned identical to theK >> last detail otherwise? I mean, same video card, same network interfaces, = >> same HBAs, etc...? (And for cards, all in the same slots.) C >>  	Have you performed a conversational boot? Can you post perhaps ? >> the last 50 lines or so leading up to the hang when you do a 6 >> conversational boot _and_ DCL verification enabled?< >>  	What is your SCSI HBA type/model number on each system?E >>  	Could it be that you have a bad SCSI cable in the 7.2-1 firmware ; >> box causing noise on the SCSI bus and a subsequent hang?  >>  -Dan   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 16:52:52 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER), Subject: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9, Message-ID: <446ca664$1@news.langstoeger.at>  O In article <op.s9qz0efxzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: D >A related question.  Apparently there was no problem installing theD >firmware on the PWS.  I tried on an XP1000 and it would not upgradeI >and when VMS boots (7.3m 7.3-1, 7,3-2 8.2 or 8.3) it complains about the < >old firmware.  Seems odd since the PWS is an older machine.  F The XP1000 was done by the CPQ graphics group and is therefore withoutE firmware upgrade since years. The PWS though older (DEC) did get some G more firmware upgrades in the past, so the firmware is now younger than H the XP1000 one (though the version number of the PWS is IMHO too big ;-)  K Note: Versionnumbers for F/W CDs (a set of F/W files for different systems) H may (and often do) differ from the versionnumber of a single machine F/W  2 >Anybody have a pointer to a compatibility matrix?  / 	http://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/   C >Is there a getsyi call to see what the version of the firmware is?    F$GETSYI ("CONSOLE_VERSION")  E Latest for XP1000 is V5.9-1 (which is below recommended version - but K not below minimum version for VMS - so it still works, but with a boot msg) E Latest for PWS is V7.2-1 (which is above recommended version for VMS)   G Latest F/W CD versions is V7.1 (with neither XP1000 nor PWS contained). L Latest F/W CD version with PWS or XP1000 F/W contained was V6.x (x around 7)   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:45:50 -0400 * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>. Subject: Re: DirectColor visuals in DecWindows, Message-ID: <446c5e5a$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  7 "J.Jansen" <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl> wrote in message 6 news:661bc$446c2713$915e511b$10444@news2.tudelft.nl... > FredK wrote:G > > It is entirely possible that it doesn't work.  What is the graphics  adapter?I > I'm presently at a different location than the machines. I know that we J > have 2 XP1000's with different graphics adapters : one being Elsa-gloriaJ > (??) the other Oxygen(??). When I'm back in Delft I'll check which one I > used for testing.  >   J I'll guess the driver probably doesn't support a writable 24-bit colormap, but I'll check.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 04:33:14 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> - Subject: Flight performance hiccup (decnet ?) , Message-ID: <446C3111.C831114F@teksavvy.com>  # Flight server: VAX 4000-200 (WHEEL) G Flight simulator: VAX 4000-600 (VELO)  (display set to BIKE via DECNET) $ X Display: Vaxstation 3100SPX (BIKE)  C There are fairly frequent times where the display freezes for a few B seconds (less than 10) and then restarts where it left off. (mouseA cursor continues to work, but the circle in the simulator control G doesn't follow the mouse as it should). The length of the freeze varies  a lot.  F Flight simulator: VAX 4000-600 (VELO)  (display set to BIKE via TCPIP)  C Seems to work better without hiccups, but display is more sluggish.   ? Flight simulator: VS3100, displayed on itself: Works perfectly.     D I changed DECNET from pipeline of 4000something and buffer of 575 (I
 think) to:C 	DEFINE EXEC PIPELINE 16384 SEGMENT 1400 BUFFER 1400  and restarted 0 decnet. But it didn't seem to make a difference.  " And that didn't make a difference.   NCP counters all show 0 errors.   F Is it possible that the 4000-600 sends too many X commands to the 3100 and some X buffers overflow ?   F Are there settings for the X-server on the 3100 that could augment the buffers space ?   J Is would this be indicative of some nastier problem with the network etc ?    F For standard apps like DECTERM, I have no problems running on VELO andL targetting the display on BIKE. But I guess FLIGHT is much more X intensive.  * Any hints on what I should be looking at ?  H BTW, shouldn't CONCORDE be able to get to Mach 2.5 ? I can barely get itB to mach 1 and it definitely won't climb to 60k feet as it should).   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:37:22 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>1 Subject: Re: Flight performance hiccup (decnet ?) ) Message-ID: <mfXag.9690$mU6.539@trnddc07>    JF Mezei wrote: % > Flight server: VAX 4000-200 (WHEEL) I > Flight simulator: VAX 4000-600 (VELO)  (display set to BIKE via DECNET) & > X Display: Vaxstation 3100SPX (BIKE) > E > There are fairly frequent times where the display freezes for a few D > seconds (less than 10) and then restarts where it left off. (mouseC > cursor continues to work, but the circle in the simulator control I > doesn't follow the mouse as it should). The length of the freeze varies  > a lot. > H > Flight simulator: VAX 4000-600 (VELO)  (display set to BIKE via TCPIP) > E > Seems to work better without hiccups, but display is more sluggish.  > A > Flight simulator: VS3100, displayed on itself: Works perfectly.  >  > F > I changed DECNET from pipeline of 4000something and buffer of 575 (I > think) to:E > 	DEFINE EXEC PIPELINE 16384 SEGMENT 1400 BUFFER 1400  and restarted 2 > decnet. But it didn't seem to make a difference. > $ > And that didn't make a difference. > ! > NCP counters all show 0 errors.  > H > Is it possible that the 4000-600 sends too many X commands to the 3100 > and some X buffers overflow ?  > H > Are there settings for the X-server on the 3100 that could augment the > buffers space ?  > L > Is would this be indicative of some nastier problem with the network etc ? >  > H > For standard apps like DECTERM, I have no problems running on VELO andN > targetting the display on BIKE. But I guess FLIGHT is much more X intensive. > , > Any hints on what I should be looking at ? > J > BTW, shouldn't CONCORDE be able to get to Mach 2.5 ? I can barely get itD > to mach 1 and it definitely won't climb to 60k feet as it should).  I Are you putting the nose up?  (I haven't played with flight simulator in  H about 20 years, and that was a Piper or Cessna, but doesn't the ConcordeF have a nose that drops down for better visibility during landings and 
 takeoffs?)  - Or maybe you just need a faster simulator :-)    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 10:10:35 -0700- From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> 3 Subject: LP ECO's (was: SWS-2.1 (Apache) question?) C Message-ID: <1147972235.827756.186050@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    Hoff Hoffman wrote: ' >  You mention you have the current ECO G > kits installed, but sometimes things like the TCP/IP ECO kits can get 
 > overlooked.  >   G Now that you've mentioned it, does anyone else find the list of layered  products patches at:  ;   <ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/layered_products/>   B a bit confusing? (The I64 directory only has one patch, so look atF Alpha) Does anyone else think a master layered products eco list might? be helpful? (arch_LP_MASTER_ECO_LIST, or maybe just LP_* in the F layered_products dir and therein, list the product, then each arch andA the most recent ECO.)  Or, maybe just a better naming convention?   F Are *all* of the IA64 patches for VMS going to be HP_I64VMS_* ? Hasn'tE anyone learned yet that an HP prefix is a bad idea? (it's HP, we know E that!) Look at the Alpha patches. Is it under AXP, ALP, DEC, or maybe ; the name of the product or what? And there's TCPIPJAALP and : DEC-AXP-TCPIP and DEC-AXP-TCPIPJA and UCXECO? Good Grief !  D Look at the software catalog. Most of the products have changed fromB being listed under D to C to H except some were and some are stillB under the actual letter of their name. Who still thinks the prefix makes any sense at all?   B Sure, I know how to post suggestions to the ITRC site, but thought& maybe some discussion would be useful.   Glad you brought this up;-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:34:10 -0500 # From: "Dan Moore" <dmoore@sosu.edu> " Subject: Performance and Disk Size$ Message-ID: <CB%ag.7$b53.6@fe06.lga>  
 Greetings,      J    We are moving from 18GB (Ultra 320 15K) disks to something larger (36, B 72, or 144). Assuming nothing else changes, I'm interested in the A performance impact that could result by increasing the disk size.        Other info:   '     We have minimal file fragmentation.   C     OpenVMS 7.3-1 on Alpha w/ internal SCSI (no need for SAN, yet).   K     The disks exist in 2 member shadow sets served by MSCP via GB Ethernet.   M     This is a four node cluster, with two nodes having one shadow set member  $ each (both nodes use internal SCSI).       No hardware RAID arrays.  &     Most of our IO is read operations.      
 Any thoughts?        Thanks,        Dan    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:34:53 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>& Subject: Re: Performance and Disk Size0 Message-ID: <xu0bg.733$s_1.483@news.cpqcorp.net>   Dan Moore wrote:  L >    We are moving from 18GB (Ultra 320 15K) disks to something larger (36, D > 72, or 144). Assuming nothing else changes, I'm interested in the C > performance impact that could result by increasing the disk size.   D    "It depends, your mileage may vary, etc."  This is not a trivial F question, particularly given that it is almost certain that something B somewhere will somehow change.  I'm not sure that anything in the D performance space is ever trivial, though "throwing hardware at the   problem" is usually safe...  :-)  I    If nothing else changes, I'd not expect any changes -- other than the  E differences in the drive specifications for transfer rate and access  C time, obviously, and the differences around operations like volume  G shadowing disk copies.  (Look at mini-copy and such to help with that.)   G    As files are added and application inevitably scale up, you can see  D increased contention and deeper I/O queues and either bigger caches F and/or decreated lower hit rates, biased by any changes in the speeds E and feeds.  You will also want to review and to potentially scale up   your archival processes.  E    A few of the higher-end I/O controllers around can and do benefit  I from larger and from larger, and naturally-aligned disk cluster factors.  I   (OpenVMS ODS-2 and ODS-5 always have naturally-aligned disk clusters.)  F   There are also changes planned for and arriving within newer disks, F particularly around the native (internal) blocking within the drives; F the internal block sizes are increasing, and thus the disks that have I these larger internal sectors can themselves perform better with aligned  G transfers.  Accordingly and as a generic recommendation, I tend to use  H and to encourage 16, 32 or 64 block cluster factors when initializing a 3 disk.  (This one is from the controller I/O gurus.)   @    You might see better performance due to lower fragmentation, D particularly if your older disks are running near capacity.  Or you F might see performance and scaling effects if for no other reason than H the increasing volume of data.  There's no good answer I know of here...  B    I'd also look at mini-copy and mini-merge, at controller-based H mirroring and/or host-based volume shadowing (since disk blocks can and C do go bad, and seemingly at the most inconvenient moments), and at  I constructs including Dynamic Volume Expansion (DVE) and -- when you next  D migrate to yet bigger disks -- at Dissimilar Device Shadowing (DDS).   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:01:28 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk@ Subject: Re: problem using mail from php-script in apache server) Message-ID: <e4i288$k43$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   \ In article <446B831E.2A0387A8@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  >david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:H >> But what is the point of securing SMTP mail at that level on VMS whenR >> anybody can just connect to the smtp port and forge the FROM using the standard% >> documented SMTP protocol commands.  > H >Fair enough. But someone using tools that connect directly to a port 25G >to send mail would be bypassing normal VMS tools such as MAIL and SFF. G >At least the last 2 would have some protection. You could grant a user F >an easy way to send mail on behalf of someone else instead of sending< >email on behalf of anyone else. (think secretary and boss).  O Sorry I don't see the point of spending resources to do this when the recipient L will have no way of knowing that the mail was sent through MAIL or SFF whichJ was providing this restriction rather than through some tool which doesn't provide that restriction.     O As it is for those users who do just change the from header before sending the  J mail message through MAIL by defining TCPIP$SMTP_FROM then the system willH automatically add a X-VMS-TRUE-FROM: header containing their normal FromJ header. (In similar circumstances other systems such as PMDF on VMS add a N Sender header line containing the same information ). As before the recipient G cannot know this hasn't been forged but can at least say that the real  E sender was the user in the X-VMS-TRUE-FROM if the user has just used   MAIL and TCPIP$SMTP_FROM.   L Although you could request that the VMS TCPIP software developers add say a   M TCPIP$SMTP_username_FROM logical name so that the system manager could define  something like  ? TCPIP$SMTP_DAVID20_FROM  "boss@mdx.ac.uk","secretary@mdx.ac.uk"   2 etc for each user in the system table in exec mode  N which would then only allow the user DAVID20 to set the TCPIP$SMTP_FROM to oneN of those values I really don't see the point as long as users can bypass using MAIL.        > D >For instance ALLIN1 has that capability where you can grant someoneI >access to your emails and allow to send on your behalf. It isn't an "all  >or nothing" thing.   N As I recall ALL-IN-One was based on Message-router and then MAILBUS 400 (X400)( which were less easy to forge than SMTP.    O In order for this to make even a little sense you would have to stop your users E being able to connect directly to the smtp port and sending directly.    This isn't impossible.L You would probably need to get TCPIP services to firstly support RFC 2476 ie8 the use of the submission port as well as the smtp port.H You would also require SMTP-AUTH on that port so that your users are allE authenticated when connecting and TLS so that passwords passed across  are encrypted.L Finally you would need to have TCPIP services have an option to stop anyone K sending through the normal smtp port with your domainname in the MAIL FROM   address.  O With this setup you should then be in a position to request that TCPIP services G have some functionality to use the authenticated login to identify the  I sending user and to use that information to restrict what from addresses   they could specify.    ( O Of course you would also need to ensure that VMS MAIL and SFF had been upgraded E to support TLS encrypted smtp auth submission to the submission port.  )   
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2006 11:49:05 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4d359gF18h298U1@individual.net>  = In article <446c25cb$0$60780$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, . 	Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote:Z >> In article <4d11c5F183pjvU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>  J >>>Probably because I have never run into a task I had to accomplish whereH >>>I needed the functionality that is unique to them.  That and the factE >>>that I haven't a clue where to look for the answer and I have more I >>>important thigs to do than read obscure documentation for the it's own  >>>sake. >>   >>  5 >>    Gee, I got it all out of HELP.  That's obscure?  >>  G >>    Now I'm starting to understand why you need so much time when you  >>    deal with VMS. >>  I > First, VMS has grow a lot since you learned about it.  Today there are  K > to much help text and to many manuals to read to make that approach work.  > C > Secondly, todays computer users are used to point and click user  H > interfaces.  They are running away when they have to use lots of time 4 > before they can use their VMS for anything useful.  M We have a standing joke around here.  Whenever we get a new device (read toy) G in if you have to read the manual before being able to use it, it's too  complicated.  I How many people read anything before using Windows?  How many people read F anything before using MS Office?  Most of that stuff doesn't even come with instructions.     bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2006 11:58:20 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4d35qsF18h298U2@individual.net>  : In article <2d6dnYFTIPKOS_bZnZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@comcast.com>,2 	pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes:. > In article <4cufpmF17mleiU4@individual.net>,+ > Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote: 5 >>In article <arF9LojajUpl@eisner.encompasserve.org>, @ >>	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:J >>> In article <4cu23oF16icgvU2@individual.net>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu >>(Bill Gunshannon) writes:  >>>>  N >>>> How many people does it take to support Unix?  (Is this another lightbulbL >>>> joke?)  I currently have 12 Unix server.  On top of that I have a Win2kN >>>> server, 2 Win2k3, 2 labs of XP boxes, a constantly changing research lab,M >>>> all the networking from wiring in the walls up to Cisco boxes and over a L >>>> 1000 users.  I'm a one man shop.  By the way, the VMS side of the localJ >>>> datacenter has 3 or 4 VMS boxes and a 3 admin people (and a full-time9 >>>> operator to handle things like backups).  Go figure.  >>K >>Oh damn.  I forgot to mention my VMS system entirely.  :-) And then there M >>are the PDP-11's too! (Currently one OS, but hopefully three different OSes  >>in the near future.) >> >>>>  M >>>> Oh yeah, between Windows and Unix, I'll give you three guesses which one P >>>> takes up most of my time.  I have Unix servers that I only touch at upgradeD >>>> time. The rest of the time they just sit there doing their job. >>> G >>>    I've got one person part time to take care of a VMScluster of 22 ' >>>    systems (backups are automated).  >>> L >>>    I've got one person for every three UNIX systems, but only if they're >>>    from the same vendor. >>A >>Why?  You sure they don't spend all their time playing NetHack? G >>Tell you what, hire me.  I'll take on 12 Unix system as the Admin and M >>you can pay me three people's salary.  You'll save one persons salary and 3 L >>people's healthcare.  That should be a substantial savings.  :-)  Oh yeah,+ >>and I get two people's vacation time. :-)  >>   > O > Damn... Bill you beat me to it.  Again.  I've got a couple of hundred systems < > (Linux/Solaris/SCO) in 24x7 internet connected production. > I > They're running on three continents and the support staff is just three H > of us. My job is hardware/software/developer support/end-user support.   And still the myth persists!!    > G > This old ex-DEC VMS fan is pretty sure that the 22 VMScluster systems F > have different purposes than the Unix ones.  Perhaps the developmentI > Unix boxes require more support (possibly because of PROGRAMMERS... and E > test code) than the Production VAXcluster stuff running payroll and . > business software... Or something like that.  ; Believe it or not, the biggest problem I have with our Unix 8 boxes is having to go in and kill rogue processes when a< student (not a professional programmer) writes some PHP crap= or the periodic accidental "rabbit" program.  Of course, this ; only affects that student as it quickly uses up his process > limits and has minimal if any effect on the other users.  And,< I get the fun of showing them what idiots they are when they> come to me, hat in hand, for help because they don't know what they have done.  :-)   > H > My biggest PITA is the 25 Windows desktops and 3 Windows servers whichG > take more work than all the Linux/Sco/Solaris stuff at work combined. < > (not counting the setup/reload/rebuild work for my variousE > development/qa environments...  We do automated Kickstart/Jumpstart C > to allow quick rebuild of systems at various locations hands-off.   G Same thing I said.  I have Windows, Unix, VMS and RSTS/E at the moment. B When you look at the time I have to spend on admin (rather than myD various research projects) it works out to about 90% Windows and 10% divided among all the rest.   F > A lot different than my VAX/VMS 11/780 installs from tape in 80-86.)  C Even with the difference in speed and available peripherals I think = those days were better.  Give me RSTS/E on a PC anyday!!  :-)    billF PS.  Bill, did you get a private Email from me yesterday?  If not, can; you send me an email address that I can use to contact you?    --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 07:40:04 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.3 Message-ID: <Yusdns6KyDFu@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <4d14mpF16mbtjU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 5 > In article <JxVLRRvZ0Psa@eisner.encompasserve.org>,  >>  I >>    OK, then, I guess you don't know as much about VMS as I thought you 
 >>    did. > F > I have never claimed to be anywhere near as proficient with VMS as I > am with Unix.   C    Let me be clear:  I based that statement soley on the content of >    other postings you've made which lead me to believe you had    more knowledge.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 07:50:08 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.3 Message-ID: <JKLltwQ5eTyS@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <446c25cb$0$60780$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  > C > Secondly, todays computer users are used to point and click user  H > interfaces.  They are running away when they have to use lots of time 4 > before they can use their VMS for anything useful.  F    I was using (programming) on VMS in the first minute after I first E    logged into it.  All the relavent skills I brought with me were a  ?    working knowledge of Fortran-IV and experience with TOPS-10.   F    And I was very wary of the folks telling me what a great machine it    was.  I was soon impressed.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 07:45:08 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.3 Message-ID: <zQzeOnmaFbsv@eisner.encompasserve.org>   l In article <2d6dnYFTIPKOS_bZnZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@comcast.com>, pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes: > G > This old ex-DEC VMS fan is pretty sure that the 22 VMScluster systems - > have different purposes than the Unix ones.   E    Nope.  Both used for developing the same application using X11 GUI F    for different projects for the same customer.  (It was the customer2    who was forcing us to use different platforms).   ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2006 13:14:34 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4d3a9qF17i2h3U1@individual.net>  3 In article <Yusdns6KyDFu@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:Y > In article <4d14mpF16mbtjU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 6 >> In article <JxVLRRvZ0Psa@eisner.encompasserve.org>, >>> J >>>    OK, then, I guess you don't know as much about VMS as I thought you >>>    did.  >>  G >> I have never claimed to be anywhere near as proficient with VMS as I  >> am with Unix. > E >    Let me be clear:  I based that statement soley on the content of @ >    other postings you've made which lead me to believe you had >    more knowledge.  G I had my first fulltime job working with computers in 1971 (Univac 1005 G and IBM 1401).  That was with the Army.  In 1972 I worked nightshift at C a bank as an operator.  I then left the computer biz cause I really D wanted to be an EE. :-)  I did hobbyist micros after that until 1980A when (back in the Army) I went into computers fulltime.  I was an E applications programmer (COBOL, Fortran, Pascal, Database on a Univac F 1100, and an LSI-11,  Lots of assembler on PDP-11, Z80 and M68K,  AlsoJ my first taste of Unix).  I earned my way up to the systems shop.  Univac,D Prime and lots of micros and more Unix.  This was also when I got myG first VMS user account.  Can't remember what version, but it was 82-83. F Since then, I have worked for a couple of major government contractorsI and done some private contracting on my own. For the last 18 years I have G been at a University, first three years as the network guru and then 15 - years with the Computing Sciences Department.   E All of this is just to show that I am no beginner and when I say that J I found Unix easier to learn than VMS it should mean something.  DifferentC people have different abilities.  You can't assume that because VMS F was a piece of cake for you that it should be for everyone else.  UnixH was a piece of cake for me, look what others say about their experience.  H I still think that one of the big things that is needed is books.  BooksH written in a different style than the documentation.  Everybody does notH learn the same way.  Even the education field finally admits that today.K Personally, I still think a "Nutshell" book would be a big winner.  I think I if the the publisher could be convinced to pick it up it would server two G purposes.  it would provide a much simpler text to let new people learn G VMS (and keep a desktop reference near at hand) and it would provide at K least a small bit of visibility so that people in decision making positions J might actually begin to loose this notion that VMS went away a decade ago.  2 But, that's just my ramblings. Comes with old age.   bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2006 16:22:25 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4d3la1F189tvuU1@individual.net>  3 In article <PGL3vN$296ja@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:Y > In article <4d35qsF18h298U2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  > > >> Believe it or not, the biggest problem I have with our Unix; >> boxes is having to go in and kill rogue processes when a ? >> student (not a professional programmer) writes some PHP crap @ >> or the periodic accidental "rabbit" program.  Of course, this> >> only affects that student as it quickly uses up his processA >> limits and has minimal if any effect on the other users.  And, ? >> I get the fun of showing them what idiots they are when they A >> come to me, hat in hand, for help because they don't know what  >> they have done.  :-)  > 8 > Don't they know how to say CTRL/Y or STOP/ID in Unix ?  H Well, two normal occurances.  One involves badly tested (or in may casesH untested) PHP scripts run from the web that leave process hanging on theJ database machine, usually stuck in an unterminated database access.  Being@ as no user can log onto the database server, they can't do that.  I The other usually occurs in Operating Systems class when they first learn J about fork().  They write a program that starts fork()-ing, real fast.....K The result is that they use up all their user level process slots and can't I even log-in again to try to kill it remotely.  If they try ^C it just re- I spawns a new process faster than they can type anything.  Sometimes doing I something really stupid is a real good learning tool.   Especially if you 0 are stupid enough to do it more than once!!  :-)   > Not that I do...  J If it's a background task all you have to do is send it a signal.  If it'sK in the foreground but not taking keyboard input, you can type ^Z to suspend L it and then kill it (or put it in the background with "bg" if you want it to( continue but not tie up the foreground.)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 10:54:47 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.3 Message-ID: <PGL3vN$296ja@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <4d35qsF18h298U2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:   = > Believe it or not, the biggest problem I have with our Unix : > boxes is having to go in and kill rogue processes when a> > student (not a professional programmer) writes some PHP crap? > or the periodic accidental "rabbit" program.  Of course, this = > only affects that student as it quickly uses up his process @ > limits and has minimal if any effect on the other users.  And,> > I get the fun of showing them what idiots they are when they@ > come to me, hat in hand, for help because they don't know what > they have done.  :-)  6 Don't they know how to say CTRL/Y or STOP/ID in Unix ?   Not that I do...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:42:22 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.9 Message-ID: <Z_adnbhSkKSePvHZnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@libcom.com>    Karsten Nyblad wrote:  > Bob Koehler wrote:G >> In article <4d11c5F183pjvU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill   >> Gunshannon) writes: >>K >>> Probably because I have never run into a task I had to accomplish where I >>> I needed the functionality that is unique to them.  That and the fact F >>> that I haven't a clue where to look for the answer and I have moreJ >>> important thigs to do than read obscure documentation for the it's own	 >>> sake.  >> >>5 >>    Gee, I got it all out of HELP.  That's obscure?  >>G >>    Now I'm starting to understand why you need so much time when you  >>    deal with VMS. >>I > First, VMS has grow a lot since you learned about it.  Today there are  K > to much help text and to many manuals to read to make that approach work.   ? I fail to find any logic in that statement.  If there are more  ? capabilities, then adequate documentation will address all the  A capabilities.  Would you prefer to hide some of the capabilities?   C > Secondly, todays computer users are used to point and click user  H > interfaces.  They are running away when they have to use lots of time 4 > before they can use their VMS for anything useful.  F Anyone who relies solely upon a GUI user interface is, by definition, F using the capabilities of the user interface, not the capabilities of : the OS, and the capabilities of the two may widely differ.  H It goes back to my comparison of RSTS vs VMS, the GUI user interface is 1 easier in part because it limits what you can do.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2006 17:01:32 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4d3njcF18pf4tU1@individual.net>  9 In article <Z_adnbhSkKSePvHZnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@libcom.com>, * 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Karsten Nyblad wrote:  >> Bob Koehler wrote: H >>> In article <4d11c5F183pjvU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill  >>> Gunshannon) writes:  >>> L >>>> Probably because I have never run into a task I had to accomplish whereJ >>>> I needed the functionality that is unique to them.  That and the factG >>>> that I haven't a clue where to look for the answer and I have more K >>>> important thigs to do than read obscure documentation for the it's own 
 >>>> sake. >>>  >>> 6 >>>    Gee, I got it all out of HELP.  That's obscure? >>> H >>>    Now I'm starting to understand why you need so much time when you >>>    deal with VMS.  >>> J >> First, VMS has grow a lot since you learned about it.  Today there are L >> to much help text and to many manuals to read to make that approach work. > A > I fail to find any logic in that statement.  If there are more  A > capabilities, then adequate documentation will address all the  C > capabilities.  Would you prefer to hide some of the capabilities?   C Not necessarily hide, but make the more commonly needed information F more available in a friendlier form and leave the obscure and esoteric1 for those who can actually understand and use it.    > D >> Secondly, todays computer users are used to point and click user I >> interfaces.  They are running away when they have to use lots of time  5 >> before they can use their VMS for anything useful.  > H > Anyone who relies solely upon a GUI user interface is, by definition, H > using the capabilities of the user interface, not the capabilities of < > the OS, and the capabilities of the two may widely differ.  / But if those capabilities meet the users needs?    > J > It goes back to my comparison of RSTS vs VMS, the GUI user interface is 3 > easier in part because it limits what you can do.   I I know of real businesses still using RSTS today.  Sometimes the expanded I capabilites just aren't needed and actually become a disadvantage if they ; get in the way of the user doing what the user needs to do.   H I never really thought of it in that manner before, but maybe one of theH probelms with HELP is information overload.  I don't doubt that a lot ofJ the answers I have needed in the past were int here, but if you can't findD that answer, no matter what the reason, the tool just isn't working.   bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:47:11 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll./ Message-ID: <5oKdnX7yspq4OfHZRVn-pQ@libcom.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:5 > In article <Yusdns6KyDFu@eisner.encompasserve.org>, @ > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:Z >> In article <4d14mpF16mbtjU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:7 >>> In article <JxVLRRvZ0Psa@eisner.encompasserve.org>, K >>>>    OK, then, I guess you don't know as much about VMS as I thought you  >>>>    did.H >>> I have never claimed to be anywhere near as proficient with VMS as I >>> am with Unix. F >>    Let me be clear:  I based that statement soley on the content ofA >>    other postings you've made which lead me to believe you had  >>    more knowledge.  > I > I had my first fulltime job working with computers in 1971 (Univac 1005 I > and IBM 1401).  That was with the Army.  In 1972 I worked nightshift at E > a bank as an operator.  I then left the computer biz cause I really F > wanted to be an EE. :-)  I did hobbyist micros after that until 1980C > when (back in the Army) I went into computers fulltime.  I was an G > applications programmer (COBOL, Fortran, Pascal, Database on a Univac H > 1100, and an LSI-11,  Lots of assembler on PDP-11, Z80 and M68K,  AlsoL > my first taste of Unix).  I earned my way up to the systems shop.  Univac,F > Prime and lots of micros and more Unix.  This was also when I got myI > first VMS user account.  Can't remember what version, but it was 82-83. H > Since then, I have worked for a couple of major government contractorsK > and done some private contracting on my own. For the last 18 years I have I > been at a University, first three years as the network guru and then 15 / > years with the Computing Sciences Department.  > G > All of this is just to show that I am no beginner and when I say that L > I found Unix easier to learn than VMS it should mean something.  DifferentE > people have different abilities.  You can't assume that because VMS H > was a piece of cake for you that it should be for everyone else.  UnixJ > was a piece of cake for me, look what others say about their experience. > J > I still think that one of the big things that is needed is books.  BooksJ > written in a different style than the documentation.  Everybody does notJ > learn the same way.  Even the education field finally admits that today.M > Personally, I still think a "Nutshell" book would be a big winner.  I think K > if the the publisher could be convinced to pick it up it would server two I > purposes.  it would provide a much simpler text to let new people learn I > VMS (and keep a desktop reference near at hand) and it would provide at M > least a small bit of visibility so that people in decision making positions L > might actually begin to loose this notion that VMS went away a decade ago. > 4 > But, that's just my ramblings. Comes with old age. >  > bill >    >   I One of the problems with your discounting the value of the documentation  H is, I believe your prior statements about not having any or much of the B documentation.  How can you evaluate that which you've never seen?  H Speaking of such, I have boxes packed with some of the older stuff, the F orange binders, VMS V4.  Would you be interested in such?  While old, + they still cover the majority of using VMS.    I won't give up my 'gray wall'.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2006 17:17:32 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4d3ohbF18pf4tU2@individual.net>  / In article <5oKdnX7yspq4OfHZRVn-pQ@libcom.com>, * 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:6 >> In article <Yusdns6KyDFu@eisner.encompasserve.org>,A >> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: [ >>> In article <4d14mpF16mbtjU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 8 >>>> In article <JxVLRRvZ0Psa@eisner.encompasserve.org>,L >>>>>    OK, then, I guess you don't know as much about VMS as I thought you
 >>>>>    did. I >>>> I have never claimed to be anywhere near as proficient with VMS as I  >>>> am with Unix.G >>>    Let me be clear:  I based that statement soley on the content of B >>>    other postings you've made which lead me to believe you had >>>    more knowledge. >>  J >> I had my first fulltime job working with computers in 1971 (Univac 1005J >> and IBM 1401).  That was with the Army.  In 1972 I worked nightshift atF >> a bank as an operator.  I then left the computer biz cause I reallyG >> wanted to be an EE. :-)  I did hobbyist micros after that until 1980 D >> when (back in the Army) I went into computers fulltime.  I was anH >> applications programmer (COBOL, Fortran, Pascal, Database on a UnivacI >> 1100, and an LSI-11,  Lots of assembler on PDP-11, Z80 and M68K,  Also M >> my first taste of Unix).  I earned my way up to the systems shop.  Univac, G >> Prime and lots of micros and more Unix.  This was also when I got my J >> first VMS user account.  Can't remember what version, but it was 82-83.I >> Since then, I have worked for a couple of major government contractors L >> and done some private contracting on my own. For the last 18 years I haveJ >> been at a University, first three years as the network guru and then 150 >> years with the Computing Sciences Department. >>  H >> All of this is just to show that I am no beginner and when I say thatM >> I found Unix easier to learn than VMS it should mean something.  Different F >> people have different abilities.  You can't assume that because VMSI >> was a piece of cake for you that it should be for everyone else.  Unix K >> was a piece of cake for me, look what others say about their experience.  >>  K >> I still think that one of the big things that is needed is books.  Books K >> written in a different style than the documentation.  Everybody does not K >> learn the same way.  Even the education field finally admits that today. N >> Personally, I still think a "Nutshell" book would be a big winner.  I thinkL >> if the the publisher could be convinced to pick it up it would server twoJ >> purposes.  it would provide a much simpler text to let new people learnJ >> VMS (and keep a desktop reference near at hand) and it would provide atN >> least a small bit of visibility so that people in decision making positionsM >> might actually begin to loose this notion that VMS went away a decade ago.  >>  5 >> But, that's just my ramblings. Comes with old age.  >>   >> bill  >>   >>   > K > One of the problems with your discounting the value of the documentation  J > is, I believe your prior statements about not having any or much of the D > documentation.  How can you evaluate that which you've never seen?  F Oh, I've seen it.  I have been places with the Orange (now Grey) Wall.G And, I have copies of the documentation CD's.  And thent here is what's C on the web.  While I have usually had no problem getting answers to H compiler problems (including language specifics) I have had considerablyH less luck when it gets down to the nitty gritty of admining the systems.   > J > Speaking of such, I have boxes packed with some of the older stuff, the H > orange binders, VMS V4.  Would you be interested in such?  While old, - > they still cover the majority of using VMS.   F Actually, I am hoping to set up a machine with a webserver and a bunchE of CD drives on it for the sole purpose of getting more documentation D (and the VMS Docs are at the top of the list) out where the studentsE and faculty can get at it.  I appreciate the offer, but I have enough D now just fighting to keep the space the machines occupy. (one of theA other reasons why I really need to work more on moving to Alpha.)    > ! > I won't give up my 'gray wall'.   I Just be careful it never tips over and falls on you.  It could take weeks 2 till the rescue dogs found your lifeless body. :-)   bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:31:26 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> & Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll.) Message-ID: <op.s9rcaoxpzgicya@hyrrokkin>   H On Thu, 18 May 2006 10:17:32 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   wrote:  H > Actually, I am hoping to set up a machine with a webserver and a bunchG > of CD drives on it for the sole purpose of getting more documentation F > (and the VMS Docs are at the top of the list) out where the studentsG > and faculty can get at it.  I appreciate the offer, but I have enough F > now just fighting to keep the space the machines occupy. (one of theC > other reasons why I really need to work more on moving to Alpha.)   K For web server you will want WASD, for drives get Plextor 716 CD DVD +-R/RW J You can get these off ebay for $30-40.  I bought 4 of these to replace theG crappy Toshiba's  look for selling new but opened packaged, these are    returns I and the ones I bought were missing the manual, which I downloaded anyway.    ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2006 17:41:48 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Results of my straw poll., Message-ID: <4d3pusF18ogbcU1@individual.net>  ) In article <op.s9rcaoxpzgicya@hyrrokkin>, & 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:J > On Thu, 18 May 2006 10:17:32 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   > wrote: > I >> Actually, I am hoping to set up a machine with a webserver and a bunch H >> of CD drives on it for the sole purpose of getting more documentationG >> (and the VMS Docs are at the top of the list) out where the students H >> and faculty can get at it.  I appreciate the offer, but I have enoughG >> now just fighting to keep the space the machines occupy. (one of the D >> other reasons why I really need to work more on moving to Alpha.) > M > For web server you will want WASD, for drives get Plextor 716 CD DVD +-R/RW L > You can get these off ebay for $30-40.  I bought 4 of these to replace theI > crappy Toshiba's  look for selling new but opened packaged, these are   	 > returns K > and the ones I bought were missing the manual, which I downloaded anyway.   I Sorry, but this is not a task for VMS.  The OS will likely be FreeBSD and F the webserver apache2.  As for CD drives, every lab PC came with a 52XF which was promptly replaced with writers so I have a shelf load of IDEH 52X CDROM Drives just gathering dust.  I realize that VMS can do it, butE like most everything, no budget, so I use existing hardware.  Any old @ PC can handle this job as it is very low demand with mostly I/O.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:17:50 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)9 Subject: Re: speeding up LAVC with switch instead of hub? $ Message-ID: <e4h72u$ml7$3@online.de>  = In article <PVFag.604$dH1.189@news.cpqcorp.net>, Hoff Hoffman " <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:   1 > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: L > > I'm looking to speed up communication in my LAN.  I have a cluster with L > > all communication on the LAN (SCS, TCPIP, LAT etc; shadow copies/merges L > > go across the network as well).  Now, everything is connected via a hub. > G >    I would not expect the LAN infrastructure to be the central limit  H > here.  A switch will certainly help isolate the traffic, but it won't & > help make a 10Mb VAX NIC any faster. > I >    I'd look to see if it is the VAX boxes, or the 10Mb connections, or  H > both.  With a shadow copy, you're jamming a whole pile of data over a E > comparatively small pipe, so you will see collisions and back-offs.   C Right.  That's normally the only time the collision LED on the hub   lights uup a lot.   G >    (Run some math, and see what the theoretical best case for a full  K > copy is, given your disk sizes and your NIC speeds.  If that calculation  I > is not hugely different from what you are experiencing, then the limit  ' > likely isn't the LAN infrastructure.)   5 I get 2 hours for a full copy; it takes about 6 or 7.   J >    With current releases of OpenVMS, you can use some of the throttling I > capabilities within shadowing (see the documentation for the shadowing  F > ECO kits, or the OpenVMS documentation for shadowing on the current K > releases) and dial back the network usage (trading off network bandwidth  J > for time), but I'd expect the core configuration limit is comparatively ) > big data and comparatively small pipes.   3 I do have SHADOW_MAX_COPY set to 1 for that reason.    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:18:47 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)9 Subject: Re: speeding up LAVC with switch instead of hub? $ Message-ID: <e4h74n$ml7$4@online.de>  5 In article <446B8AFB.98487D3C@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei ' <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:    J > I've got my MACs and DSL stuff on a Switch. The cluster is on a hub withI > one port going to the switch. This way, the cluster doesn't see traffic ? > between the macs and the internet, or appletalk traffic etc.    B Yes, I have a similar setup.  I don't have a MAC, but have a VOIP  thingy.    ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 07:56:11 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 9 Subject: Re: speeding up LAVC with switch instead of hub? 3 Message-ID: <2PPAWIVJciwe@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <446B8AFB.98487D3C@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:J > I've got my MACs and DSL stuff on a Switch. The cluster is on a hub withI > one port going to the switch. This way, the cluster doesn't see traffic ? > between the macs and the internet, or appletalk traffic etc.    E    I've got all my home stuff on a switch.  You can tell what's what  H    because the old DEC stuff is doing 10MB which makes the green lights K    come on and the rest are newer boxes doing 100MB which makes the yellow  F    lights come on.  You can tell when there's a lot of SCS traffic, it&    makes the green lights flash a lot.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:16:56 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 9 Subject: Re: speeding up LAVC with switch instead of hub? ) Message-ID: <op.s9q0iiemzgicya@hyrrokkin>   1 On Thu, 18 May 2006 05:56:11 -0700, Bob Koehler   0 <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:  9 > In article <446B8AFB.98487D3C@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei   ( > <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:K >> I've got my MACs and DSL stuff on a Switch. The cluster is on a hub with J >> one port going to the switch. This way, the cluster doesn't see traffic? >> between the macs and the internet, or appletalk traffic etc.  > F >    I've got all my home stuff on a switch.  You can tell what's whatI >    because the old DEC stuff is doing 10MB which makes the green lights G >    come on and the rest are newer boxes doing 100MB which makes the    > yellowH >    lights come on.  You can tell when there's a lot of SCS traffic, it( >    makes the green lights flash a lot. > < I don't think yellow is good, at least not on a Cisco switch   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:18:53 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>9 Subject: Re: speeding up LAVC with switch instead of hub? 0 Message-ID: <N71bg.747$Bh2.607@news.cpqcorp.net>   Tom Linden wrote:   > > I don't think yellow is good, at least not on a Cisco switch  I    Cisco apparently understands the basic concept of traffic light color  
 coding, then.   H    On desktop switches, tri-state LEDs tend to show 10 Mb as green, 100 F Mb as yellow, and faults or collisions as red.  I've certainly worked  with several of these switches.       --   F    A theoretical two hour transfer of a full volume copy over a 10 Mb E network implies circa seven GB disks, give or take, and particularly  H assuming I've done the math correctly.  Given the time to read the data H off and the time to write the data out and the glacial speeds and feeds F of most VAX systems and add a dollop of contention and given you that H won't ever hit the theoretical speed of an IEEE 802.3/Ethernet network, H and your six-to-seven hour environment doesn't look all that far out of  line.   A    Old hardware -- old VAX systems, old I/O, old NICs -- is slow.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:45:57 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> ' Subject: Re: SWS-2.1 (Apache) question? 9 Message-ID: <T6Zag.8709$aa4.283406@news20.bellglobal.com>   7 "Steven M. Schweda" <sms@antinode.org> wrote in message , news:06051718314507_2020743C@antinode.org...+ > From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  > L >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_iguide_21.htmlG >> you'll see all the SWS-2.1 (Apache) processes running at priority 6.  >> [...]K >> However, all these processes are running at either 9 or 10 on my system. G >> Does anyone know how to start SWS-2.1 at a lower priority? (could it 5 >> possibly be controlled by an unpublished logical?)  > B >   I'm still back at CSWS V1.2 (+ CSWS12_UPDATE V7.0), and all myJ > APACHE$* processes are Pri = 6, but they're also all in State = LEF (andI > have been idle for a while), so should I care what their priority might H > be?  What's its priority when a process is busy doing something?  SHOWH > PROCESS /ID = whatever suggests that they all have "Base priority: 4".J > Transiently higher process priorities do not keep me awake at night (but% > that could be caused by ignorance).  > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 4 >   Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org5 >   382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818  >   Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547 >   7 Here is why I'm trying to drop the priority of SWS-2.1.   K My AlphaServer-DS20e has crashed at least 6 times in the last 12 weeks. It  G always crashes with "bugcheck 774" (CPUSANITY timer), it is always the  J second CPU (CPU-01), and it is always an Apache process. Just in case you A are interested, we are running 2 CPUs, with 3 GB of memory under  M OpenVMS-7.3-2 with consolidated patch kit 600 installed. We have swapped all  K the CPUs and memory with another machine so think this might be a software   problem.       ###   %  CPUSANITY,  CPU sanity timer expired   .   Facility:     SMP, Symmetric Multiprocessing  G   Explanation:  One of the processors in a multiprocessor configuration D         detected that another processor that is participating in theA         SMP environment is no longer responding to hardware clock          interrupts.   K   User Action:  After the system reboots, determine which processor stopped F         responding to hardware clock interrupts by analyzing the crashF         dump generated by this bugcheck. Further analysis of the crashE         dump might show the reason why that CPU was not responding to D         clock interrupts; for example, it was looping in a driver atE         an IPL high enough to block its clock interrupts. Correct the 2         code that stayed at high IPL for too long.       ###   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html9 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html    ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 06:26:09 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com ' Subject: Re: SWS-2.1 (Apache) question? B Message-ID: <1147958768.952940.70000@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Neil Rieck wrote: 9 > Here is why I'm trying to drop the priority of SWS-2.1.  > L > My AlphaServer-DS20e has crashed at least 6 times in the last 12 weeks. ItH > always crashes with "bugcheck 774" (CPUSANITY timer), it is always theK > second CPU (CPU-01), and it is always an Apache process. Just in case you B > are interested, we are running 2 CPUs, with 3 GB of memory underN > OpenVMS-7.3-2 with consolidated patch kit 600 installed. We have swapped allL > the CPUs and memory with another machine so think this might be a software
 > problem.  G I don't think that will have any effect.  Process priorities are almost ? always given a "boost" when a process performs certain types of G actions.  I.e. Terminal I/O gets a higher temporary boost, so that when A the user hits RETURN, they get a decent response, but if they get > compute bound, the priority quickly drops to the base priority (typically 4).  ? The CPU Sanity Timer is not based on process priorities, but by E hardware Interrupt level - the hardware clock is the highest priority C hardware interrupt.  No process priority value can block a hardware G interrupt - so something else must be going on, possibly with the other D CPU (not the one reporting the crash).  Use SDA to find out what the other CPU is doing.    > 	 >     ###  > ' >  CPUSANITY,  CPU sanity timer expired  > 0 >   Facility:     SMP, Symmetric Multiprocessing > I >   Explanation:  One of the processors in a multiprocessor configuration F >         detected that another processor that is participating in theC >         SMP environment is no longer responding to hardware clock  >         interrupts.  > M >   User Action:  After the system reboots, determine which processor stopped H >         responding to hardware clock interrupts by analyzing the crashH >         dump generated by this bugcheck. Further analysis of the crashG >         dump might show the reason why that CPU was not responding to F >         clock interrupts; for example, it was looping in a driver atG >         an IPL high enough to block its clock interrupts. Correct the 4 >         code that stayed at high IPL for too long. > 	 >     ###  >  > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  > Ontario, Canada.: > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html; > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:38:00 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>' Subject: Re: SWS-2.1 (Apache) question? 0 Message-ID: <cF%ag.725$%N1.632@news.cpqcorp.net>   Neil Rieck wrote:   9 > Here is why I'm trying to drop the priority of SWS-2.1.  > M > My AlphaServer-DS20e has crashed at least 6 times in the last 12 weeks. It  I > always crashes with "bugcheck 774" (CPUSANITY timer), it is always the  : > second CPU (CPU-01), and it is always an Apache process. ... ' >  CPUSANITY,  CPU sanity timer expired   F    Interactive process priorities are manipulated based on scheduling D events; the priorities are raised and lowered depending on what the G process is doing.  I'd not expect interactive process priorities to be  0 able to block higher-priority kernel activities.  D    Sanity timers are usually hardware or low-level device or device H driver errors.  Core devices have locked up, or core system hardware is I not functioning correctly.  Hardware-level problems such as power supply  I errors and power problems can potentially trigger CPUSANITY crashes, for  	 instance.   H    As a start, check the SRM firmware version, and check the error log, F and (since your application is likely working with the network) check G the IP and network driver ECOs.   You mention you have the current ECO  F kits installed, but sometimes things like the TCP/IP ECO kits can get  overlooked.   @    The Services folks can help check and help confirm processor ? revisions and SMP processor compatibility and such, as well as  C assistance in finding and troubleshooting hardware errors, and the  G services folks can also help you with configuring -- if it's needed --  6 full-check SMP, and diagnosing any subsequent crashes.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 03:22:38 -0700 From: stuie_norris@yahoo.com.au U Subject: TCPIP Configuration -TCPIP-E-BIND_NO_ZONEXFR, zone transfer was unsuccessful B Message-ID: <1147947758.182811.167210@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  	 Hi Group,   F My saga with TCPIP continues.  I now can connect to the internet which9 is a massive improvement and I am already ready to smile.   @ I am setting up my IP information using DHCP from a ADSL router.  C I think the only issue I have left is a rather strange error when I  show hosts.  $ tcpip show host         LOCAL database    Host address    Host name   $ 127.0.0.1       LOCALHOST, localhost 192.168.1.12    ds10.DHCPPool ( %TCPIP-W-NORECORD, information not found8 -TCPIP-E-BIND_NO_ZONEXFR, zone transfer was unsuccessful     $ tcpip show host /local        LOCAL database    Host address    Host name   $ 127.0.0.1       LOCALHOST, localhost 192.168.1.12    ds10.DHCPPool   & Now my domain is openvms not DHCPpool.@ I can see from the logicals that TCPIP defines that my router is  sending the openvms domain name.  < Where is the   "TCPIP$INET_DOMAIN" = "DHCPPool" coming from.  A I have deleted all the TCPIP*.dat files in sys$system, reboot and  reconfigured TCPIP.   * Is this mismatch causing my error message.  ' Anyone know what is causing this error?      Thanks         (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)  =   "TCPIP$BGDRIVER" = "SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:TCPIP$BGDRIVER.EXE" !   "TCPIP$BIND_DOMAIN" = "openvms" "   "TCPIP$BIND_DOMLST" = "........"$   "TCPIP$BIND_DOMLST000" = "openvms"   "TCPIP$BIND_RETRY" = "...." "   "TCPIP$BIND_SERVER" = "........"(   "TCPIP$BIND_SERVER000" = "221.232.0.4"(   "TCPIP$BIND_SERVER001" = "221.232.0.3"!   "TCPIP$BIND_STATE" = "........"    "TCPIP$BIND_TIMEOUT" = "...."    "TCPIP$CONFIGURATION" = . "SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]TCPIP$CONFIGURATION.DAT;1"   "TCPIP$DEVICE" = "_BG0:"!   "TCPIP$DHCP_sig_mbx" = "MBA27:" *   "TCPIP$ETC" = "SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$ETC]"9   "TCPIP$EXAMPLES" = "SYS$COMMON:[SYSHLP.EXAMPLES.TCPIP]" 6   "TCPIP$HOST" = "SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]TCPIP$HOST.DAT;1""   "TCPIP$INET_DOMAIN" = "DHCPPool"   "TCPIP$INET_HOST" = "ds10"(   "TCPIP$INET_HOSTADDR" = "192.168.1.12"   "TCPIP$INTERNET_SERVICES" = 1 "SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:TCPIP$INTERNET_SERVICES.EXE"    "TCPIP$LIBPCAP_EXAMPLES" =, "SYS$COMMON:[SYSHLP.EXAMPLES.TCPIP.LIBPCAP]"+ "TCPIP$LIBRARY" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[TCPIP$LIB]" <   "TCPIP$NETWORK" = "SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]TCPIP$NETWORK.DAT;1"8   "TCPIP$PROXY" = "SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]TCPIP$PROXY.DAT;1"   "TCPIP$PROXY_SERVICES" =. "SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:TCPIP$PROXY_SERVICES.EXE"8   "TCPIP$ROUTE" = "SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]TCPIP$ROUTE.DAT;1"-   "TCPIP$RPC" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[TCPIP$LIB.RPC]" <   "TCPIP$SERVICE" = "SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]TCPIP$SERVICE.DAT;1"/   "TCPIP$SNMP" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[TCPIP$LIB.SNMP]" C   "TCPIP$SNMP_EXAMPLES" = "SYS$COMMON:[SYSHLP.EXAMPLES.TCPIP.SNMP]" (   "TCPIP$SYSTEM" = "SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]"=   "TCPIP$TNDRIVER" = "SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:TCPIP$TNDRIVER.EXE"        Routing information  $ tcpip show route  $                              DYNAMIC  < Type           Destination                           Gateway  7 AN    0.0.0.0                               192.168.1.1 5 AH    127.0.0.1                             127.0.0.1 8 AN    192.168.1.0/24                        192.168.1.128 AH    192.168.1.12                          192.168.1.12   $ tcpip show route /permB %TCPIP-E-ROUTEERROR, error accessing routes database (TCPIP$ROUTE)( -TCPIP-W-NORECORD, information not found   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:48:05 +0100 * From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>Y Subject: Re: TCPIP Configuration -TCPIP-E-BIND_NO_ZONEXFR, zone transfer was unsuccessful 2 Message-ID: <e4hjd5$7t5$1@blackmamba.itd.rl.ac.uk>  - <stuie_norris@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message  < news:1147947758.182811.167210@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...    E > I think the only issue I have left is a rather strange error when I 
 > show hosts.  > * > %TCPIP-W-NORECORD, information not found: > -TCPIP-E-BIND_NO_ZONEXFR, zone transfer was unsuccessful  = Most DNS servers no longer let arbitrary systems dump out the % whole domain. It's too easy to abuse.    ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 04:19:53 -0700 From: stuie_norris@yahoo.com.au Y Subject: Re: TCPIP Configuration -TCPIP-E-BIND_NO_ZONEXFR, zone transfer was unsuccessful B Message-ID: <1147951192.958604.96100@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  	 Hi Group,   ? So it has nothing to do with "TCPIP$INET_DOMAIN" = "DHCPPool" ?    Where does this come from?  / What is configuring / setting this to DHCPPool.    Thanks   Stuart   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 16:38:20 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)Y Subject: Re: TCPIP Configuration -TCPIP-E-BIND_NO_ZONEXFR, zone transfer was unsuccessful , Message-ID: <446ca2fc$1@news.langstoeger.at>  d In article <1147951192.958604.96100@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, stuie_norris@yahoo.com.au writes:@ >So it has nothing to do with "TCPIP$INET_DOMAIN" = "DHCPPool" ?   I think so.    >Where does this come from?  > 0 >What is configuring / setting this to DHCPPool.  8 From your own DHCP server (your DSL router) most likely.   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:59:27 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) , Subject: Re: Thundering Hurd pacing HP gainsZ Message-ID: <rdeininger-1805060859280001@dialup-4.233.188.34.dial1.manchester1.level3.net>  N In article <op.s9o76rrnzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:  D >On Wed, 17 May 2006 06:55:16 -0700, <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote: > H >> The company's enterprise storage and servers business reported $4.3  
 >> billion: >> in revenue, up 2 percent from the year-earlier quarter. > F > From which I guess you can cocnlude that VMS represents about 25% of
 >that unit.     # That's a strange thing to conclude.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:19:40 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> , Subject: Re: Thundering Hurd pacing HP gains) Message-ID: <op.s9q0m20bzgicya@hyrrokkin>   6 On Thu, 18 May 2006 05:59:27 -0700, Robert Deininger  % <rdeininger@mindspringdot.com> wrote:   K > In article <op.s9o76rrnzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>    > wrote: > F >> On Wed, 17 May 2006 06:55:16 -0700, <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote: >>G >>> The company's enterprise storage and servers business reported $4.3  >>> billion ; >>> in revenue, up 2 percent from the year-earlier quarter.  >>G >> From which I guess you can cocnlude that VMS represents about 25% of 
 >> that unit.  > % > That's a strange thing to conclude.   K Not at all,  Unless there has been a change in VMS revenues, for the past    several I years it has averaged about $1Billion per quarter.  Of course my source    could have been  wrong, but I don't think so.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:03:39 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> , Subject: Re: Thundering Hurd pacing HP gains) Message-ID: <op.s9ra0dh3zgicya@hyrrokkin>   G On Thu, 18 May 2006 09:58:24 -0700, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>    wrote:   > Tom Linden wrote: 9 >> On Thu, 18 May 2006 05:59:27 -0700, Robert Deininger   ( >> <rdeininger@mindspringdot.com> wrote: >>< >>> In article <op.s9o76rrnzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden"   >>> <tom@kednos.com> wrote:  >>> H >>>> On Wed, 17 May 2006 06:55:16 -0700, <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote: >>>>I >>>>> The company's enterprise storage and servers business reported $4.3 
 >>>>> billion = >>>>> in revenue, up 2 percent from the year-earlier quarter.  >>>>I >>>> From which I guess you can cocnlude that VMS represents about 25% of  >>>> that unit.  >>> ' >>> That's a strange thing to conclude. J >>  Not at all,  Unless there has been a change in VMS revenues, for the   >> past several L >> years it has averaged about $1Billion per quarter.  Of course my source   >> could have been >> wrong, but I don't think so.  > I > I seem to remember a post a short while back that mentioned $2B / year.  > J Not according to my source  4.1 Billion with a gross of about $819 million IIRC   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:58:24 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> , Subject: Re: Thundering Hurd pacing HP gains/ Message-ID: <5oKdnXnysppZO_HZRVn-pQ@libcom.com>    Tom Linden wrote: 7 > On Thu, 18 May 2006 05:59:27 -0700, Robert Deininger  ' > <rdeininger@mindspringdot.com> wrote:  > : >> In article <op.s9o76rrnzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden"  >> <tom@kednos.com> wrote: >>G >>> On Wed, 17 May 2006 06:55:16 -0700, <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote:  >>> H >>>> The company's enterprise storage and servers business reported $4.3 >>>> billion< >>>> in revenue, up 2 percent from the year-earlier quarter. >>> H >>> From which I guess you can cocnlude that VMS represents about 25% of >>> that unit. >>& >> That's a strange thing to conclude. > G > Not at all,  Unless there has been a change in VMS revenues, for the   > past severalJ > years it has averaged about $1Billion per quarter.  Of course my source  > could have been  > wrong, but I don't think so.  G I seem to remember a post a short while back that mentioned $2B / year.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:11:31 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)8 Subject: Re: what should Bad-Clients: in SMTP.CONFIG do?$ Message-ID: <e4h6n3$ml7$1@online.de>  ; In article <1147876098.23780@nntp.acecape.com>, sol gongola  <sol@adldata.com> writes:   & > Are you sure the file is being used?< > Are you sure the syntax is right for the smtp.config file?! > Is the file in the right place? ) > Did you check your logs for any errors? 1 > There are vms logicals to expand your smtp logs C > to see if there are any errors when reading the smtp.config file.    Yes.  I Looking more closely, it seems that the stuff not directed at a domain I  F accept email for IS dropped, but spam to a domain I accept email for, D from this address, is handled as if there were no Bad-Clients entry.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:14:09 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)8 Subject: Re: what should Bad-Clients: in SMTP.CONFIG do?$ Message-ID: <e4h6s1$ml7$2@online.de>  5 In article <446B9032.17980EC7@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei ' <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:     > TCPIP> SHOW SERV SMTP/FULL > F > The "Log Opts" should have "Accept" and "Reject" in them. ( HELP SET
 > SERV /LOG )   K Log Opts:     Acpt Actv Dactv Conn Error Exit Logi Logo Mdfy Rjct TimO Addr   E > This will send an OPCOM message whenever a call comes into port 25.    Yes, I see the OPCOM.   H > (if you change the SET SERVICE SMTP /LOG , you need to DISABLE SERVICE > SMTP and ENABLE SERVICE SMTP)   D I never did SET SERV/LOG by hand, so presumably this is the default.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 05:09:54 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: what should Bad-Clients: in SMTP.CONFIG do?, Message-ID: <446C39A7.7DC84E80@teksavvy.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: J > Looking more closely, it seems that the stuff not directed at a domain I > accept email for IS dropped,  H The stuff not directed to your domain shouldn't even get to your system.   look at a spam transaction:   H HELO spam.com		<- "spam.com" appears in the "received header followed by the real IP address)H MAIL FROM: john.dow@doe.org         <- used to build the "Reply-Path: in
 the header@ RCPT TO: philip.helbig@helbig.com   <- the real delivery address DATA Date: some date  From: Monica@lewinski.org  To: Bill@Clinton.org Subject: Cost of Blue Dress   & Thank you for paying for my blue dress Regards  Monica .   K The above message gets delivered to the mailbox of philip.helbig@helbig.com   H The remote SMTP server decided to connect to your SMTP server because itD translated "helbig.com" as an MX record to a host name and then that host name to an IP address.       * > but spam to a domain I accept email for,F > from this address, is handled as if there were no Bad-Clients entry.  A Do you have a good clients list that could accept such an address G (overrides the bad client list if the address is more specific (smaller  network for instance).  F Again, turn TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_DEBUG to 1 and connect to your SMTP serverG to generate a log file which contains a listing of how the receiver has H interpreted your SMTP.CONFIG. YOu may find some error messages in it etcH etc. Also, if you moved SMTP.CONFIG to another directory, you might findL that the software is or isn't using the file you thought/hoped it was using.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:15:14 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>   Subject: Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware) Message-ID: <op.s9q8roemzgicya@hyrrokkin>   E On Thu, 18 May 2006 08:55:57 -0700, <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote:   H > Couldn't VMS engineering just reissue the XP1000 SRM firmware with a   > later I > version number so that VMS won't complain ?  (or failing that get VMS    > 8.3 toJ > recognise that the latest firmware for the XP1000 is 5.9 and supress the > warning message). = > It just looks bad and causes naive users unnecessary worry.   @ The complaints have never bothered me, but lack of WWIDMGR does.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:14:00 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>  Subject: Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware0 Message-ID: <Ya0bg.731$tj2.717@news.cpqcorp.net>   Tom Linden wrote:   G > Well that must be an articial limitation, considering as I indicated  % > that the PWS is an older machine.       F    There is presently no newer AlphaStation XP1000 SRM firmware; that G system is currently at V5.9, and I know of no plans to upgrade the SRM  D firmware for this particular box.  This is not an age-related nor a F marketing-related decision; it's a pragmatic engineering-related one, D and one specific to this system.  (That said, I use an AlphaStation E XP1000 as one of my key development machines, as folks have probably  # inferred from my various comments.)   H    And as a general rule, the DS, ES and GS-series boxes are the series G ones that are seeing engineering and qualifications and updates around  H testing for peripheral and hardware upgrades, but do also remember that A the last order date for any new, current-generation Alpha system  D purchases is coming up later this year, and the last order date for @ Alpha hardware upgrades is expected later next year.  (The main B AlphaServer web page has the sales and ordering details; start at   <http://www.hp.com/go/server/>.)  G    OpenVMS Alpha has no plans to drop the AlphaStation XP1000 support,  H and I'm variously running baselevels of the upcoming 8.3 release on the F box.  AFAIK, hardware maintenance support is also presently available.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:43:54 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>  Subject: Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware0 Message-ID: <_C0bg.735$8m2.271@news.cpqcorp.net>   Tom Linden wrote:    > bash-2.03$ consvar -g version ' > version = V7.2-1 Mar  6 2000 14:47:02   I    The ANALYZE/SYSTEM (SDA) CLUE CONFIG mechanism can be used to display  G the SRM firmware revision, as can f$getsyi("CONSOLE_VERSION") -- there  H are other approaches around, too, though I don't know that the SRM date  is as readily available.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:06:07 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>  Subject: Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware0 Message-ID: <PX0bg.743$8n2.246@news.cpqcorp.net>    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:  K > Are these VMS F/W version messages identical for all hardware types also?   C    The messages from OpenVMS are similar, but the firmware and the  4 requirements and the dependencies can and do differ.  I > Latest F/W version for PWS is V7.2-1 (a couple of years old now), while K > the latest F/W version for DS10 is V7.1-x (a couple of months old). So if K > you theoretically require (a future) V7.2 for VMS V8.5, will the PWS then J > suffice? (from the versnum yes of course, but can we be sure on that no)  G    You do realize that there's no way that I can answer this -- or any  G other similarly theoretical questions -- in anything other than in the   generic, right?   H    Given our typical OpenVMS release cycles and at the roadmaps, you're H asking about something that might or might not arise several years into  the future, too.  H    And at the end of the intervening time, are you even going to "care" I about a Digital Personal Workstation Alpha box, or will you be using new  F or used Integrity boxes, or some comparatively less-ancient Alpha box?  D    If OpenVMS Engineering should encounter a problem with or a hard E limit with an older (and supported) system, and a limitation that we  A can't reasonably avoid, then we'll likely announce the impending  F retirement of the system, and then retire it.  System retirements are ) not a new process for OpenVMS, after all.    	--   E    Based on my experience and that of others, eighteen months is the  F software engineering project scheduling equivalent of infinity, after 8 all.  You're looking (well) past that horizon here.  :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:55:25 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> K Subject: Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9) ) Message-ID: <op.s9q2aniyzgicya@hyrrokkin>   L On Thu, 18 May 2006 06:33:27 -0700, Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>   wrote:   > Tom Linden wrote: E > A related question.  Apparently there was no problem installing the E > firmware on the PWS.  I tried on an XP1000 and it would not upgrade J > and when VMS boots (7.3m 7.3-1, 7,3-2 8.2 or 8.3) it complains about the= > old firmware.  Seems odd since the PWS is an older machine. J >    The most recent and current AlphaStation XP1000 series SRM firmware  
 > is V5.9. > K Well that must be an articial limitation, considering as I indicated that    the L PWS is an older machine.  This becomes a nuisance since i have two KGPSA-C   in each G XP1000 and to reconfigure them I have to pull them out, put them in a    DS10L to5 rum WWIDMGR.  Maybe I should power up an old Miata:-)    ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 07:07:37 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> K Subject: Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9) B Message-ID: <1147961257.653030.56510@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > Tom Linden wrote: G > > A related question.  Apparently there was no problem installing the G > > firmware on the PWS.  I tried on an XP1000 and it would not upgrade L > > and when VMS boots (7.3m 7.3-1, 7,3-2 8.2 or 8.3) it complains about the? > > old firmware.  Seems odd since the PWS is an older machine.  > H >    The most recent and current AlphaStation XP1000 series SRM firmware
 > is V5.9. > C > http://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/readmes/xp1000.html  > G >    The messages about the AlphaStation XP1000 firmware version can be C > ignored.  (Since there presently exists no newer firmware for the G > AlphaStation XP1000 series, the OpenVMS firmware-related messages are  > obviously incorrect.)   A I found an earlier post within the archives while I was searching G recently (from FredK, I believe) stating that the warning message could E be ignored since it was in error.  Apparently VMS uses a table driven C lookup based on CPU or (probably) system architecture.  Anyway, the @ XP1000 is the only memeber of it's particular design group who'sA firmware has stopped development.  Since it is lumped in with the G others whose firmware is still being updated, VMS doesn't know that you / can't get any newer version and thus complains.   C I must add that this situation with the firmware really sucks, too. > The XP1000 is the only EV6+ based workstation available at anyB reasonable price for the VMS hobbyist and it is sometimes horriblyF limited in add-on hardware because of the lack of support in SRM.  TheF only other real alternative is the DS10L which can be had fairly cheapD but has a very limited expansion potential for workstation type use.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:33:27 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>K Subject: Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9) 0 Message-ID: <HI_ag.722$BV1.580@news.cpqcorp.net>   Tom Linden wrote: E > A related question.  Apparently there was no problem installing the E > firmware on the PWS.  I tried on an XP1000 and it would not upgrade J > and when VMS boots (7.3m 7.3-1, 7,3-2 8.2 or 8.3) it complains about the= > old firmware.  Seems odd since the PWS is an older machine.   G    The most recent and current AlphaStation XP1000 series SRM firmware   is V5.9.  A http://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/readmes/xp1000.html   F    The messages about the AlphaStation XP1000 firmware version can be B ignored.  (Since there presently exists no newer firmware for the F AlphaStation XP1000 series, the OpenVMS firmware-related messages are  obviously incorrect.)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 08:12:03 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> K Subject: Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9) ) Message-ID: <op.s9q5udrnzgicya@hyrrokkin>   ? On Thu, 18 May 2006 09:04:32 -0700, Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER    <peter@langstoeger.at> wrote:   A > In article <HI_ag.722$BV1.580@news.cpqcorp.net>, Hoff Hoffman   # > <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes: G >>   The messages about the AlphaStation XP1000 firmware version can be D >> ignored.  (Since there presently exists no newer firmware for theH >> AlphaStation XP1000 series, the OpenVMS firmware-related messages are >> obviously incorrect.) > K > Are these VMS F/W version messages identical for all hardware types also?  > I > Latest F/W version for PWS is V7.2-1 (a couple of years old now), while K > the latest F/W version for DS10 is V7.1-x (a couple of months old). So if K > you theoretically require (a future) V7.2 for VMS V8.5, will the PWS then J > suffice? (from the versnum yes of course, but can we be sure on that no) >  6 years to be exact    bash-2.03$ consvar -g version % version = V7.2-1 Mar  6 2000 14:47:02    ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 17:04:32 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)K Subject: Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9) , Message-ID: <446ca920$1@news.langstoeger.at>  _ In article <HI_ag.722$BV1.580@news.cpqcorp.net>, Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes: G >   The messages about the AlphaStation XP1000 firmware version can be  C >ignored.  (Since there presently exists no newer firmware for the  G >AlphaStation XP1000 series, the OpenVMS firmware-related messages are   >obviously incorrect.)  I Are these VMS F/W version messages identical for all hardware types also?   G Latest F/W version for PWS is V7.2-1 (a couple of years old now), while I the latest F/W version for DS10 is V7.1-x (a couple of months old). So if I you theoretically require (a future) V7.2 for VMS V8.5, will the PWS then H suffice? (from the versnum yes of course, but can we be sure on that no)   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2006 10:58:30 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) K Subject: Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9) 3 Message-ID: <GIOuV0Pi2c6I@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <1147961257.653030.56510@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes:  @ > The XP1000 is the only EV6+ based workstation available at anyD > reasonable price for the VMS hobbyist and it is sometimes horriblyC > limited in add-on hardware because of the lack of support in SRM.   B Perhaps there is a causal relationship between features and price.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:16:11 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)K Subject: Re: XP1000 SRM Firmware (was: Re: Digital PWS 500au Firmware V6.9) 2 Message-ID: <06051812161150_2020743C@antinode.org>  # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>   E > A related question.  Apparently there was no problem installing the E > firmware on the PWS.  I tried on an XP1000 and it would not upgrade J > and when VMS boots (7.3m 7.3-1, 7,3-2 8.2 or 8.3) it complains about the= > old firmware.  Seems odd since the PWS is an older machine.   H    I had no trouble upgrading the firmware on my XP1000 (500MHz) systemsE when I got them.  As I recall, I used an Alpha Firmware Update CD-ROM E (probably one from a Non-Commercial Tru64 UNIX kit).  (When I got the G systems, the firmware couldn't identify an ELSA GLoria graphics card by E name, for example.  Now, it just can't identify an Ati Radeon 7500 by H name.)  I get firmware-related complaints only when booting VMS versions
 after V7.3-2.   3 alp $ write sys$output f$getsyi( "CONSOLE_VERSION")  V5.9-1  9 > [...]  This becomes a nuisance since i have two KGPSA-C 	 > in each G > XP1000 and to reconfigure them I have to pull them out, put them in a 
 > DS10L to > rum WWIDMGR.  [...]   :    I have yet to run into this problem, but it is a worry.    ; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>   E > I must add that this situation with the firmware really sucks, too. @ > The XP1000 is the only EV6+ based workstation available at anyD > reasonable price for the VMS hobbyist and it is sometimes horriblyH > limited in add-on hardware because of the lack of support in SRM.  TheH > only other real alternative is the DS10L which can be had fairly cheapF > but has a very limited expansion potential for workstation type use.  D    Even though this comes from a fellow who can't seem to manage his0 it's-its and who's-whose, I emphatically concur.  , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>  H >    OpenVMS Alpha has no plans to drop the AlphaStation XP1000 support, > [...]   A    I'm mildly comforted (at least until I actually need WWIDMGR).   G    It must be tough to keep all the non-cash-paying customers happy, as ' well as all the more remunerative ones.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.275 ************************                                                                                                                                                                                  6vݽXo~ѻ^mzZon}pwvx4^Gf-eHֽ=5^=hSÑr/Bfwڕ eAo
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