1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 25 May 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 289       Contents: Re: A sorry saga Re: A sorry saga Re: An obscure bug in DIRECTORY ' Re: Bad-Clients: definitely not working " Re: Carly Fiorina bio at wikipedia" Re: Carly Fiorina bio at wikipedia" Re: Carly Fiorina bio at wikipedia" Re: Carly Fiorina bio at wikipedia" Re: Carly Fiorina bio at wikipedia1 Displaying a text file to all users entering ACMS 5 Re: Displaying a text file to all users entering ACMS ! Re: Educating potential VMS users ! Re: Educating potential VMS users ! Re: Educating potential VMS users ! Re: Educating potential VMS users ! Re: Educating potential VMS users P Re: Educating potential VMS users (was: Re: Unix runs faster, maybe (was: Re: EdP Re: Educating potential VMS users (was: Re: Unix runs faster, maybe (was: Re: Ed# Re: Hobbyist licensing site broken? ; Re: OT: Woodcrest (X86-64) will ouperform all other cpus on P Re: OT: Woodcrest (X86-64) will ouperform all other cpus on  themarketsays InquiP Re: OT: Woodcrest (X86-64) will ouperform all other cpus on themarket says InquiP Re: OT: Woodcrest (X86-64) will ouperform all other cpus on themarketsays Inquir@ Unix runs faster, maybe (was: Re: Educating potential VMS users)D Re: Unix runs faster, maybe (was: Re: Educating potential VMS users)D Re: Unix runs faster, maybe (was: Re: Educating potential VMS users)D Re: Unix runs faster, maybe (was: Re: Educating potential VMS users)  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 04:07:01 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: A sorry saga 9 Message-ID: <a--dnfjUBOYj-ejZnZ2dnUVZ_tudnZ2d@libcom.com>    Chris Sharman wrote:M > Our system (DS20E, Alpha VMS 7.3-1) is currently in some kind of busy loop. 6 > It's spending about 70% in kernel mode, 30% in exec.K > I can kill the offending process (always clocking vast numbers of direct  H > I/Os, as well as CPU), but the 'problem' transfers to another process. > G > My woes started on Monday, when maintenance inadvertently pulled the  J > power on our RA3000 disk array. They plugged it back in within a minute D > or so, and the Alpha VMS cluster survived. Subsequently though we D > started experiencing disk corruption - multiply allocated blocks, 0 > corrupted index file blocks, and other issues. > G > I tried to straighten it out with dfu, and manually rebuilding files. I > 11am yesterday morning I rebuilt the corrupt sales order file with all  F > the orders I could recover - while the disks and files now appeared / > clean, issues seemed to be worse, not better. G > I restored 3 disks (system, cluster common, and an application) from  : > Friday night's backup, and last night all appeared well. > G > This morning we have new index bucket corruption in previously clean  C > files on previously clean disks, and the system permanently busy. C > The system is reporting some 50% traffic on its gigabit ethernet  % > connection, and lots of collisions. E > There's no hardware errors recorded, but I don't really think it's  & > software and I'm somewhat at a loss. >  > Offending processes include:I > a tracking program that handles 50 or so lat-connected barcode readers. % > MX Local (from the MX mail package)  > IUPOP3I > a dcl monitoring program that checks every 5 minutes that all critical  K > apps are running, and restarts them if not - reads its .com file, writes  4 > its .log, and uses f$getjpi, f$getqui, and submit. > " > So we appear to have 2 problems:D > 1. mysterious consumption of all CPU doing billions of direct I/Os > 2. filesystem corruption > * > Any advice, ideas, etc much appreciated.  " Got any vacation time coming?  :-)  K > I've got a call in to our hardware maintainer, but I expect them to be a   > bit baffled too. >  > Chris      --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:06:58 +0100 . From: "Tim Jackson" <nobody(at)baesystems.com> Subject: Re: A sorry saga 1 Message-ID: <44757114$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net>   > "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> wrote in message . news:e51ev4$l5i$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...H > Our system (DS20E, Alpha VMS 7.3-1) is currently in some kind of busy  > loop. 6 > It's spending about 70% in kernel mode, 30% in exec.K > I can kill the offending process (always clocking vast numbers of direct  H > I/Os, as well as CPU), but the 'problem' transfers to another process. > M > My woes started on Monday, when maintenance inadvertently pulled the power  K > on our RA3000 disk array. They plugged it back in within a minute or so,  E > and the Alpha VMS cluster survived. Subsequently though we started  L > experiencing disk corruption - multiply allocated blocks, corrupted index   > file blocks, and other issues. > G > I tried to straighten it out with dfu, and manually rebuilding files. M > 11am yesterday morning I rebuilt the corrupt sales order file with all the  I > orders I could recover - while the disks and files now appeared clean,  ( > issues seemed to be worse, not better.G > I restored 3 disks (system, cluster common, and an application) from  : > Friday night's backup, and last night all appeared well. > M > This morning we have new index bucket corruption in previously clean files  = > on previously clean disks, and the system permanently busy. C > The system is reporting some 50% traffic on its gigabit ethernet  % > connection, and lots of collisions. E > There's no hardware errors recorded, but I don't really think it's  & > software and I'm somewhat at a loss. >  > Offending processes include:I > a tracking program that handles 50 or so lat-connected barcode readers. % > MX Local (from the MX mail package)  > IUPOP3I > a dcl monitoring program that checks every 5 minutes that all critical  K > apps are running, and restarts them if not - reads its .com file, writes  4 > its .log, and uses f$getjpi, f$getqui, and submit. > " > So we appear to have 2 problems:D > 1. mysterious consumption of all CPU doing billions of direct I/Os > 2. filesystem corruption > * > Any advice, ideas, etc much appreciated.K > I've got a call in to our hardware maintainer, but I expect them to be a   > bit baffled too. >  > Chris   L Can't comment on number 1, but when our RA3000 systems were first installed L we also suffered following power outages to the RA3000s.  The only solution F we found was to reinitialise the disks using the StorageWorks Command = Console and then restore the contents from backups.  Sorry :)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 11:18:25 -0500 + From: brandon@dalsemi.com (BRANDON, JOHN M) ( Subject: Re: An obscure bug in DIRECTORY1 Message-ID: <06052511182584@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>    Fails on V7.2-1H1   $ DSCIS6::BRANDON> SHOW SYSTEM /NOPROCN OpenVMS V7.2-1H1  on node DSCIS6  25-MAY-2006 11:17:37.50  Uptime  19 21:10:47  I DSCIS6::BRANDON> directory sys$login/sel=file=(noname,notype,nodir,nover)    Directory DISK$WWW01:[BRANDON]  ; %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual : address=0000000000024000, PC=000000000003A500, PS=0000001B  2   Improperly handled condition, image exit forced.1     Signal arguments:   Number = 0000000000000005 1                         Name   = 000000000000000C 1                                  0000000000000000 1                                  0000000000024000 1                                  000000000003A500 1                                  000000000000001B        Register dump:J     R0  = 0000000000024674  R1  = 0000000000001004  R2  = 0000000000010600J     R3  = 0000000000023670  R4  = 0000000000000401  R5  = 0000000000000000J     R6  = 0000000000000002  R7  = 0000000000000041  R8  = 0000000000011FE0J     R9  = 0000000000000000  R10 = 0000000000010001  R11 = 000000007FFCE3E0J     R12 = 0000000000000000  R13 = 000000007ADD2340  R14 = 0000000000010C50J     R15 = 000000007ADD19A0  R16 = 0000000000000400  R17 = 0000000000011FE0J     R18 = 000000007ACC5718  R19 = 000000007ACC56FC  R20 = 0000000000000000J     R21 = 000000007ACC5718  R22 = 000000007ACC5718  R23 = 0000000000020BB0J     R24 = 0000000000000000  R25 = 0000000000000021  R26 = 000000000003A520J     R27 = 0000000000000000  R28 = 00000000000394F4  R29 = 000000007ACC58A0J     SP  = 000000007ACC58A0  PC  = 000000000003A500  PS  = 200000000000001B       John "REBOOT" Brandon  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:20:29 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)0 Subject: Re: Bad-Clients: definitely not working$ Message-ID: <e54p0s$mbe$1@online.de>  5 In article <44753E86.C9ED779D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei ' <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:    1 > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: H > > OK, if I want to accept email from x but not allow him to relay, butA > > allow relaying in general, then I need ANOTHER dummy list for J > > Relay-Zones (in addition to the dummy list Good-Clients which might be- > > needed only so that Bad-Clients is read).  > C > Relay-List defines the local hosts that can receive mail from the H > outside world via your SMTP server. YOu can define it to only your own@ > machine if you want. It isn't "dummy". Same with good-clients.  > It depends on how you look at it.  In my case, all I want is aB Bad-Clients list.  However, EVEN THOUGH IT IS READ AND PARSED AND I EVALUATED IF THE GOOD-CLIENTS LIST DOESN'T EXIST, it is ignored if there  H is no Good-Clients list.  Yes, I can put the machines on my LAN on it.  G I can also put a private network which doesn't exist on my LAN in it.   E The contents don't matter, merely the presence.  In my case, it IS a   dummy list.   L > > However, I want a specific address to be able to send me email, so I putL > > that in Good-Clients.  Then, if relay is enabled at all, he can relay to > > the world. > ? > Yes, you have a very good point.  But you can also define the I > bad-clients as separate network masks that don't include the good guy.    G Yes, then it becomes really complicated.  The idea is to have something ; like 142.43.0.0/16 in Bad-Clients but, say, 142.43.220.8 in  Good-Clients.   H > Or you can Accept-Mail-From: to define email addresses you accept mailH > from nop matter where they come from. and those guys do not gain relay > provileges.   A OK, but here it's addresses, right?  I want to do it based on IP  
 addresses.   > > defined as a dummy list, > H > Don't think of it as "dummy list". DEfine it properly to have what you= > want: your host's IP address would be the only good-client.   F Again, possible, but it seems like a kludge.  OK, it works, and in my H case I can probably get the configuration I need, but it should be more  straightforward.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 03:32:13 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> + Subject: Re: Carly Fiorina bio at wikipedia / Message-ID: <nuidnc2x8vQLwejZRVn-gg@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote: ( > re: carly's statements on employement. > # 2 > Fiorina was reported to proclaim that "There is J > no job that is America's God-given right anymore. We all have to compete > for  > jobs.   H I'll make one comment about that.  When it comes to commodities, that's D very true.  When it comes to new development, that belongs first to G whoever does the development, the people with the ideas and knowhow to  G make it happen.  The Apollo program is one reason the USA had a period  C of leadership.  That wasn't followed by additional such efforts to   continue to develop new ideas.  H Lately, there is another fly in the ointment.  The idea people just may G not use USA labor to produce the new idea.  Communications has allowed  D things to be moved elsewhere.  There's a few more reasons to not do A things here, environmental rules, cost of extras such as medical.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:50:34 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> + Subject: Re: Carly Fiorina bio at wikipedia = Message-ID: <4475619e$0$67256$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    JF Mezei wrote:  > etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote:  > 4 >>Wonder how her politics match with Bob Palmer's?   >  > H >>They also both screwed their respective companies into the ground.  HP >>survived though. :o( >  > J > Her first stint as CEO didn't. Lucent is being absorbed by Alcatel.  AndF > remember that Carly sold off the real "HP" (now Agilent) to keep her) > toys business (printers, cameras, PCs).   H The companies producing old fashioned fixed line phone switches are all F having a hard time.  People are moving to IP and cellphones.  E.g. in F Denmark the number of fixed lines is falling.  The old monopoly phone D company has decided not to invest in fixed line telephony any more, F because they think most of the market will be gone in 2010.  They are F constantly firing engineers who used to install and fixed line phones.  I Ericsson and Nortel are just two companies that has also been in trouble.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 04:45:59 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> + Subject: Re: Carly Fiorina bio at wikipedia , Message-ID: <44756E93.1B2D0D1C@teksavvy.com>   Karsten Nyblad wrote: I > The companies producing old fashioned fixed line phone switches are all  > having a hard time.   K > Ericsson and Nortel are just two companies that has also been in trouble.   F Yep. But in the case of Nortel and Lucent, they were headed by "stars"G during the .com boom who went out on a giant buying spree for all sorts H of "convergence" stuff (aka: vapourware) and which didn't have a hope fo8 making a profit. Carly was part of that boom at Lucent.   A When all was said and done, Lucent and Nortel suffered a very bad H indigestion and had no cash left to rebuild their tradictional telephonyE into VoIP products. Cisco managed to geta  big foot into that market. E Had Nortel and Lucent concentrated on their core business, they could 7 have developped VoIP products and be in the game today.   E Nortel and Ericcsoon at least have some mobile network products which D are up-to-date, but even then, with wi-fi/wi-max making big inroads, that too risks being eroded.  H What companies like Lucent and Nortel cannot control is the stupidity ofF landline companies who aren't deciding to make POTS phones competitive@ with VoIP products.  Similar to Digital refusing to make its VMS  products compete against the PC.  C Bell Canada here just recently raised its basic fee to get any long G distance plan with them. Basically, to get any rebate, you need to dish F out a $5.00 access fee which wasn't there last year (that is on top ofG the actual long distance plan). This, at a time when VoIP companies are ; offering unlimited long distance as part of their offering.   G If the landline telcos weren't cannabalising their POTS infrastructure, 9 perhaps Nortel and Lucent wouldn't be in sure bad shapes.     F When you look at current technologies for homes, DSL chips come mostlyH from Alcatel, and DOCSIS modems come from cisco/motorola (the core chipsH inside). Nortel and Lucent missed the boat on that one. (And yes, NortelH had proprietary DSL offering which is now dead, and also has proprietary+ cable-modem technology which is also dead).    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 06:34:07 -0500 / From: pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) + Subject: Re: Carly Fiorina bio at wikipedia 0 Message-ID: <NZWdnXvYi8-yC-jZRVn-vg@comcast.com>  , In article <4474C1FF.B30CC433@teksavvy.com>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:  >etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: >>  5 >> Wonder how her politics match with Bob Palmer's?    >  >>  I >> They also both screwed their respective companies into the ground.  HP  >> survived though. :o(  > I >Her first stint as CEO didn't. Lucent is being absorbed by Alcatel.  And E >remember that Carly sold off the real "HP" (now Agilent) to keep her ( >toys business (printers, cameras, PCs).  ' Carly never ran Lucent into the ground.  She never was a CEO there.3 Rich McGinn and company ran Lucent into the ground.    > I >Capellas and runned out of companies to work for. He was only marketable G >at companies that nobody wanted to steer. Now that he's managed to get G >someone to rescue Worldcom/MCI, he'll soon be out of a job there and I I >suspect he'll be left with his token seat on the board at Cisco and like E >Palmer at AMD, hopefully will just enjoy the perks and not cause the  >company to go down.  C I haven't had the view that Capellas was anywhere as destructive as D Carly...or McGinn who had Lucent build an executive golf retreat forH execs to make deals at in the late 90's... which was dumped to the Buena, Vista boys at a discount when Lucent tanked.   Bill   --   --  H   d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN.  Don't you wish you could still buy it now!#   pechter-at-ureachtechnologies.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:42:34 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.com+ Subject: Re: Carly Fiorina bio at wikipedia Q Message-ID: <OF82EF8497.DBD555F8-ON85257179.00458D8F-85257179.0045C910@metso.com>   B Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote on 05/25/2006 03:32:13 AM:   > JF Mezei wrote: * > > re: carly's statements on employement. > > # 3 > > Fiorina was reported to proclaim that "There is D > > no job that is America's God-given right anymore. We all have to compete  > > for 	 > > jobs.  > I > I'll make one comment about that.  When it comes to commodities, that's E > very true.  When it comes to new development, that belongs first to H > whoever does the development, the people with the ideas and knowhow toH > make it happen.  The Apollo program is one reason the USA had a periodD > of leadership.  That wasn't followed by additional such efforts to  > continue to develop new ideas. > I > Lately, there is another fly in the ointment.  The idea people just may H > not use USA labor to produce the new idea.  Communications has allowedE > things to be moved elsewhere.  There's a few more reasons to not do C > things here, environmental rules, cost of extras such as medical.   ? You should read this column about what is really happening, but E unfortunately you have to be a NY TIMES site subscriber to get access 	 directly.   ) Outsourcing, Schmoutsourcing! Out Is Over  By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN  Published: May 19, 2006       F We are seeing the emergence of collaborative business models that were! simply unimaginable a decade ago.       G [Disclaimer: I neither endorse nor dispute Mr. Friedman - just find him 
 relevant.]     >  > --6 > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450@ > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com > DFE Ultralights, Inc.  > 170 Grimplin Road  > Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 25 May 2006 07:57:23 -0700- From: "Brucey" <Bruce.Goller@LCHClearnet.com> : Subject: Displaying a text file to all users entering ACMSC Message-ID: <1148569043.741124.118960@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   F I can't emember how to do this, nor find any documentation. Can anyone help ?  < We want to display a text file to all users that enter ACMS.= I've done it before and I remember having to define a logical D (ACMS$.... ?) that points to the text file. But have no idea what it was !    Thanks.    ------------------------------    Date: 25 May 2006 09:50:24 -0700+ From: Gerry.Czadowski@NAV-International.com > Subject: Re: Displaying a text file to all users entering ACMSB Message-ID: <1148575823.986039.73280@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  
 Brucey wrote:  > > > We want to display a text file to all users that enter ACMS.? > I've done it before and I remember having to define a logical F > (ACMS$.... ?) that points to the text file. But have no idea what it > was !  >  ACMS$NOTICE    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 12:47:04 +0000 (UTC) . From: John F <john@pleaseSeeSigForAddress.com>* Subject: Re: Educating potential VMS users, Message-ID: <e54907$ljp$1@reader1.panix.com>  2 Richard B. Gilbert <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote: : Bill Gunshannon wrote:F : > A short time ago we were discussing books (beyond the docset) thatE : > could be useful.  I have sitting ont he desk in front mf me right < : > now a book titled "RSTS/E Primer".  The Preface starts: I : >      "This primerintroduces the RSTS/E system to people who are using I : >       a computer for the first time.  You will learn to use RSTS/E by I : >       becoming familiar with computer concepts and gaining 'hands on'  : >       experience." : > I : > I think this kind of book would be useful.  As a matter of fact, this J : > coupled with a "Nutshell" book as a desk reference could make a lot ofM : > people who have never used VMS productive in a very short period of time. K : > Once they learn to be productive, all the other advantages of VMS would J : > make a lot more sense and might lead to increased interest in what VMS : > has to offer?  : > < : > So, anybody interested in taking on such a project?  :-) : > bill  D : It has been done.  Several times.  None were "Best Sellers".  See:; : http://home.comcast.net/~rgilbert88/VMS_Bibliography.html   @ Nice list, including several books by Jay Shah.  I think you may= have his most relevant book, vis-a-vis OP's concern, slightly  misclassified as a DCL book !   VAX/VMS Concepts and Facilities 
   Jay Shah'   McGraw Hill, 1991, ISBN 0-07-056367-5 7 (But, as pointed out in preceding post, it's completely 4 command-line oriented, which the world seems to have passed by.)   H : I'd be happy to write another one but I'd want a substantial advance! " : How much money are you offering? : Richard B. Gilbert  5 OP seems, in reply to your query, rather annoyed that 8 nobody's willing to take on his brilliant idea for free.3 (Maybe he'd like to actually do something about his 9 own idea, rather than getting annoyed at everybody else.)  --  > John Forkosh  ( mailto:  j@f.com  where j=john and f=forkosh )   ------------------------------   Date: 25 May 2006 13:00:36 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)* Subject: Re: Educating potential VMS users, Message-ID: <4dlo3kF1a82f3U1@individual.net>  , In article <e54907$ljp$1@reader1.panix.com>,1 	John F <john@pleaseSeeSigForAddress.com> writes:  > 7 > OP seems, in reply to your query, rather annoyed that : > nobody's willing to take on his brilliant idea for free.  H Sorry, I thought one made money on the book sales.  Unless we're talking
 Stephen King.   5 > (Maybe he'd like to actually do something about his ; > own idea, rather than getting annoyed at everybody else.)   B That's what I get annoyed at.  I don't necessarily have the neededD experience with VMS to do something like this on my own.  And I find@ it rather amazing that those here who's livlihood depends on VMS? seem to have no interest in trying to actually expand it's user @ base or visibility.  It really makes no difference to me one way? or the other as I do not now nor do I anticipate ever making my ? living from VMS.  I don't get paid for acquiring, setting up or A maintaining any of the systems I run here.  I really am beginning " to think I'm just wasting my time.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 13:57:47 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)* Subject: Re: Educating potential VMS users6 Message-ID: <00A56350.FE5A072D@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  W In article <4dlo3kF1a82f3U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: - >In article <e54907$ljp$1@reader1.panix.com>, 2 >	John F <john@pleaseSeeSigForAddress.com> writes: >>  8 >> OP seems, in reply to your query, rather annoyed that; >> nobody's willing to take on his brilliant idea for free.  > I >Sorry, I thought one made money on the book sales.  Unless we're talking  >Stephen King.  C My webservers-on-VMS book has done fairly well in this little niche K market,  and Digital Press is interested in a second edition.  Nonetheless, H it hasn't quite earned out the advance, and the advance pretty much paidK for the computer I needed to buy to do testing and installations, since DOE A frowns on that sort of thing being done for private gain on their E equipment.  When you count in the few days of unpaid leave I ended up F needing to take to get the thing done on  the re-re-re-re-renegotiatedJ deadline, my hourly rate for the book went from trivial to negative.  (TheI advance was about two week's salary, and the project consumed all my free K time and some of my not-actually-free-time for over a year.  It was a _lot_ I of work.  I'm glad I did it, and proud of the result, but I sure couldn't H afford to quit my day job and try to make a living writing books at that rate.     G An intro-to-VMS book might do better than that, or it might not, but it J would be a lot of work and the author certainly wouldn't get rich off it. I It's a better deal, financially, for a consultant or trainer to write one G of these things and get business from it than it is for an employee who " isn't looking to drum up business.  6 >> (Maybe he'd like to actually do something about his< >> own idea, rather than getting annoyed at everybody else.) > C >That's what I get annoyed at.  I don't necessarily have the needed E >experience with VMS to do something like this on my own.  And I find A >it rather amazing that those here who's livlihood depends on VMS @ >seem to have no interest in trying to actually expand it's userA >base or visibility.  It really makes no difference to me one way @ >or the other as I do not now nor do I anticipate ever making my@ >living from VMS.  I don't get paid for acquiring, setting up orB >maintaining any of the systems I run here.  I really am beginning# >to think I'm just wasting my time.   C I understand your frustration.  But there's a whole lot involved in  stepping up to do this.   F Now, if somebody's interested in working on a project like this in an J open-source or hobbyist way - not for pay - I can provide the VAX DocumentJ source for a specialized-to-SSRL intro-to-VMS (on VAX 8810) manual heavilyK rewritten by  me in 1991 from Joe St. Sauber's original.  It needs a lot of J updating, but at least there's a structure.  And your tax dollars paid for it, so it's publicly available.    -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:39:32 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> * Subject: Re: Educating potential VMS users: Message-ID: <jYOdnReBMtM5XOjZnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@comcast.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:. > In article <e54907$ljp$1@reader1.panix.com>,3 > 	John F <john@pleaseSeeSigForAddress.com> writes:  > 7 >>OP seems, in reply to your query, rather annoyed that : >>nobody's willing to take on his brilliant idea for free. >  > J > Sorry, I thought one made money on the book sales.  Unless we're talking > Stephen King.  >  > 5 >>(Maybe he'd like to actually do something about his ; >>own idea, rather than getting annoyed at everybody else.)  >  > D > That's what I get annoyed at.  I don't necessarily have the neededF > experience with VMS to do something like this on my own.  And I findB > it rather amazing that those here who's livlihood depends on VMSA > seem to have no interest in trying to actually expand it's user B > base or visibility.  It really makes no difference to me one wayA > or the other as I do not now nor do I anticipate ever making my A > living from VMS.  I don't get paid for acquiring, setting up or C > maintaining any of the systems I run here.  I really am beginning $ > to think I'm just wasting my time. >  > bill >   I Writing a new book introducing VMS is not going cause even a tiny ripple  G in either the book market or the VMS market.  VMS has always been more  G ore less of a "niche" operating system.  Digital was not interested in  E fighting to expand its market share.  Compaq, and now HP, didn't and  * don't care to fight the good fight either.  I Unix runs faster than VMS on comparable hardware.  The years have proven  . that fast and cheap beats "Better" every time.  E Solaris is "Free".  The last time I looked, the cheapest VMS License  I cost something like $1500 US.  Technical support for Solaris on a single  I processor starts at $140/year.  It's $280 per year if you want telephone  < support.  Technical support for VMS is more like $140/month.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 May 2006 09:23:49 -0700- From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> * Subject: Re: Educating potential VMS usersC Message-ID: <1148574229.393819.198470@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:. > In article <e54907$ljp$1@reader1.panix.com>,3 > 	John F <john@pleaseSeeSigForAddress.com> writes:  > > 9 > > OP seems, in reply to your query, rather annoyed that < > > nobody's willing to take on his brilliant idea for free. > J > Sorry, I thought one made money on the book sales.  Unless we're talking > Stephen King.  > 7 > > (Maybe he'd like to actually do something about his = > > own idea, rather than getting annoyed at everybody else.)  > D > That's what I get annoyed at.  I don't necessarily have the neededF > experience with VMS to do something like this on my own.  And I findB > it rather amazing that those here who's livlihood depends on VMSA > seem to have no interest in trying to actually expand it's user B > base or visibility.  It really makes no difference to me one wayA > or the other as I do not now nor do I anticipate ever making my A > living from VMS.  I don't get paid for acquiring, setting up or C > maintaining any of the systems I run here.  I really am beginning $ > to think I'm just wasting my time. >   > I see you have no idea about how things work in the publishing	 industry.   6 Anyway, to Bill and anyone else who shares his belief;  E Before you go further, critique the books that are already available. E To save you the trouble of actually looking up their titles, here are 4 the ones at the link provided by Richard B. Gilbert:   ##G Bynon, David W. and Shannon, Terry C. Introduction to VAX/VMS  Cardinal  Business Media ##. Duffy, Michael D. Getting Started with OpenVMS  Digital Press, 2002, ~300 pages. ISBN 1-55558-279-6 ##A Peters, James F. III and Holmay, Patrick J. The VMS User's Guide,  Digital Press, 1990  ##B Sawey, Ronald M. and Stokes, Troy T. A Beginner's Guide to VAX/VMSC Utilities and Applications, Digital Press, 1992.  (Very elementary. C May be suitable for readers with little or no computer experience.)  ##E Sharick, Paula The Essential Guide to VMS Utilities and Commands, Van 0 Nostrand Reinhold, 349 pages, ISBN 0-442-00266-1 ##; Wright, Michael VAX-VMS Primer, Contemporary Publishing Co.  ##  A Do none of those books satisfy your needs. Should some of them be C brought up to date? Contact the author about the book's and his/her E current situation. Maybe you can work on an updated revision together D and share credit if the publisher has interest. You can usually find; the publisher's address and contact the author though them.   ( Do you still think a new book is needed?  F Okay, contact a publisher such as the beloved O'Reilly and find out ifF they would like to publish such a book if it were available. PresumingD you actually get to speak to someone who can help you, they will (if; you're lucky) provide you with their publishing guidelines.   E Cold-writing to a publisher might or might not solicit a response --- D if it does, it's normally a form letter explaining their guidelines.  B Writing a technical book without first researching other availableB books and not working with a publisher is guaranteed to be a money loser.  C If your name is not as well known as "Stephen King", the chances of G actually making money from an unsolicited book are slim to none. Making G money from an unsolicited technical manual probably has worse odds than , winning the lottery without buying a ticket.  D If someone has more money than they need and wants a book published,D there are vanity publishers that will do small runs, but you have to pay for the publication.  . I've actually made it sound easier than it is.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 12:26:26 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.comY Subject: Re: Educating potential VMS users (was: Re: Unix runs faster, maybe (was: Re: Ed Q Message-ID: <OFC0D64E02.95759D54-ON85257179.005A06DA-85257179.005A481A@metso.com>   4 bob@instantwhip.com wrote on 05/25/2006 11:55:36 AM:  0 > technical support for 1 year of vms support is4 > $700 for a year ... get your facts straight before > posting lies ... >   2 Well, the "lies" were posted by someone else under the original topic.   ) Please be careful with your threads 8-) .   1 As to posting lies, rid the posting of "lies" and ' the newsgroup would lose critical mass.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 11:02:29 -0600 6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam>Y Subject: Re: Educating potential VMS users (was: Re: Unix runs faster, maybe (was: Re: Ed / Message-ID: <Koldg.16$me1.1074@news.uswest.net>        ) <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote in message K news:OFC0D64E02.95759D54-ON85257179.005A06DA-85257179.005A481A@metso.com...  >  > 6 > bob@instantwhip.com wrote on 05/25/2006 11:55:36 AM: > 2 > > technical support for 1 year of vms support is6 > > $700 for a year ... get your facts straight before > > posting lies ... > >  > 4 > Well, the "lies" were posted by someone else under > the original topic.  > + > Please be careful with your threads 8-) .  > 3 > As to posting lies, rid the posting of "lies" and ) > the newsgroup would lose critical mass.  >   J That and all the bashing of every other OS in use on the planet.  It's oneB thing to compare different OS's, but what frequently passes for OS- comparison here reminds me of a religous war.   
 Mike Ober.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:35:39 GMT # From: Steven Young <here@there.com> , Subject: Re: Hobbyist licensing site broken?E Message-ID: <slrne7bqnb.rbv.steve@S01060050bfec5d4e.ed.shawcable.net>   ? On 2006-05-25, davidc@montagar.com <davidc@montagar.com> wrote: J > Yes, but the hotel and bootcamp have network access!  I'll look into it!  E   It looks like you've fixed it; got my licenses last night.  Thanks!      Steve.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 May 2006 07:36:40 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) D Subject: Re: OT: Woodcrest (X86-64) will ouperform all other cpus on3 Message-ID: <OTBGd2jYFcOy@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <4475604D.58712CE8@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > I > In fact, wouldn't the Charron-VAX do something similar by automatically G > converting VAX proprietary floating point to IEEE that is used on the  > 8086 on which it runs ?   F    No, I think Charon-VAX emulates the VAX instructions similar to theF    way 11/780 microcode implemented them.  It's no great pain to breakG    down the bit fields of a VAX float and manipulate them in the manner '    required to do an add, subtract, ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 03:45:02 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> Y Subject: Re: OT: Woodcrest (X86-64) will ouperform all other cpus on  themarketsays Inqui , Message-ID: <4475604D.58712CE8@teksavvy.com>   Karsten Nyblad wrote: D > Changing from BE to LE or vice-versa will be a huge problem to anyJ > organization that has developed their own code currently running on only > LE or only BE.  C Read up on Rosetta, Apple's PowerPC emulator on the 8086 which also N deals with BE to LE conversions of data on the fly.. Very smartly implemented.    G In fact, wouldn't the Charron-VAX do something similar by automatically E converting VAX proprietary floating point to IEEE that is used on the  8086 on which it runs ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:15:10 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> Y Subject: Re: OT: Woodcrest (X86-64) will ouperform all other cpus on themarket says Inqui = Message-ID: <44754b42$0$67256$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    JF Mezei wrote:  > prep@prep.synonet.com wrote: > F >>That will be fun, as they move their data from BE to LE formats! And* >>many of the PHUX apps have LOTS of data. >  > D > Consider that Apple is moving from big endian on PowerPC to LittenI > endian on the 8086. And they have "Rosetta" that allows applications to % > transparently deal with this issue.   C Changing from BE to LE or vice-versa will be a huge problem to any  I organization that has developed their own code currently running on only  B LE or only BE.  In theory you can order your programmers to write I portable code, but only so many programmers have the knowledge to do it.  F   In practice it requires people dedicated to quality control who can @ order fixes to code for no other reason than the code not being I portable.  Experience also show that the code must be tested on multiple  H platforms as part of the ordinary testing taking place in a development G department, i.e., releases internal to development must also be ported  $ to and tested on multiple platforms.  I The definitions of programming languages leave out details like in which  I order parameters for procedures should be calculated or whether the left  G or right side of and addition should be calculated first.  Programmers  F know that but some times they write code that depends on one compiler ) compiling the code in one particular way.   I Add to these problems that compilers are programs with bugs.  If you are  H to move millions of lines of code, then you can be damned sure that the E compiler will generate wrong code in a number of cases, and find the  % problems in old code takes long time.   G These problems are enough to make any project moving from one platform  I to another aaahh interesting.  Now add changing from BE to LE or from LE  I to BE.  In practice there will be code that depends on endianess, and it  E will be costly to find and fix that code concurrently with the other   problems of porting the code.   E Apple is small on servers, and most people are mainly using software  B that already runs on both BE and LE, e.g., Word.  Most of Apple's H customers do not have the millions of lines of code developed in house. E   Moving HPUX customers to x86-64 will be a much larger problem than    moving Apple's customers to x86.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 May 2006 04:01:45 -0700, From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <quayle@pobox.com>Y Subject: Re: OT: Woodcrest (X86-64) will ouperform all other cpus on themarketsays Inquir C Message-ID: <1148554905.587139.325550@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    JF MezeiI > In fact, wouldn't the Charron-VAX do something similar by automatically G > converting VAX proprietary floating point to IEEE that is used on the  > 8086 on which it runs ?   B Nope.  Converting between IEEE and VAX float would cause incorrectG behavior.  There's a whitepaper from HP about how VAX float is emulated  in IEEE float on Itanium.   G After reading that, you'll understand why CHARON-VAX does it the "hard"  way. -- the "right" way.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 11:25:14 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.comI Subject: Unix runs faster, maybe (was: Re: Educating potential VMS users) Q Message-ID: <OFF9CAA1F8.E6124C66-ON85257179.00540C45-85257179.0054AD8D@metso.com>   J "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote on 05/25/2006 10:39:32 AM:    > Bill Gunshannon wrote:0 > > In article <e54907$ljp$1@reader1.panix.com>,7 > >    John F <john@pleaseSeeSigForAddress.com> writes:  > > 9 > >>OP seems, in reply to your query, rather annoyed that < > >>nobody's willing to take on his brilliant idea for free. [snip]3 > Unix runs faster than VMS on comparable hardware.   / I just cannot let that statement go unremarked. A Unix may run faster, but without the reliability, so "comparable" B is as always dependent on the business problem needing a solution. One man's meat....  F > The years have proven that fast and cheap beats "Better" every time.  : ..until the disaster strikes, then "cheap" becomes "oops."   > F > Solaris is "Free".  The last time I looked, the cheapest VMS LicenseJ > cost something like $1500 US.  Technical support for Solaris on a singleJ > processor starts at $140/year.  It's $280 per year if you want telephone> > support.  Technical support for VMS is more like $140/month.  F No argument here.  I don't know the figures, but VMS is not priced for$ volume sales and remains unmarketed.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 May 2006 08:55:36 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com M Subject: Re: Unix runs faster, maybe (was: Re: Educating potential VMS users) C Message-ID: <1148572536.365394.118520@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   . technical support for 1 year of vms support is2 $700 for a year ... get your facts straight before posting lies ...   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 11:25:16 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)M Subject: Re: Unix runs faster, maybe (was: Re: Educating potential VMS users) 2 Message-ID: <06052511251623_20200393@antinode.org>   From: bob@instantwhip.com   + > [...]  ... get your facts straight before  > posting lies ...      What good would that do?   G    Now, if you were to change "before" to "instead of", it might make a * little more sense.  (That'd be a novelty.)  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 11:03:01 -0600 6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam>M Subject: Re: Unix runs faster, maybe (was: Re: Educating potential VMS users) / Message-ID: <fpldg.17$me1.1055@news.uswest.net>      F We're paying less than that for Hardware and Software support.  I just checked the contract.   
 Mike Ober.  & <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message= news:1148572536.365394.118520@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... 0 > technical support for 1 year of vms support is4 > $700 for a year ... get your facts straight before > posting lies ... >  >    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.289 ************************