1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 04 Oct 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 545       Contents:# Re: All is not well at the HP board 2 Re: Alpha object file changes - version 6.2 to 8.22 Re: Alpha object file changes - version 6.2 to 8.22 Re: Alpha object file changes - version 6.2 to 8.22 Re: Alpha object file changes - version 6.2 to 8.2+ Application concerned about number of CPUs? / Re: Application concerned about number of CPUs? / Re: Application concerned about number of CPUs? / Re: Application concerned about number of CPUs? / Re: Application concerned about number of CPUs? P Re: Compile and gone! (Was: Re: VMS>7.3 Linker Manual - I64 Short Data restrictiP Re: Compile and gone! (Was: Re: VMS>7.3 Linker Manual - I64 Short Data restricti  Re: CSWB: disappearing bookmarks Re: Damning with faint praise?0 Re: FT.com - spy methods used in other companies0 Re: FT.com - spy methods used in other companiesH Re: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/familyhome.do?familyId=288" Re: latest INQ story on hp support" Re: latest INQ story on hp support" Re: latest INQ story on hp support" Re: latest INQ story on hp support" Re: latest INQ story on hp support" Re: latest INQ story on hp support" Re: latest INQ story on hp support" Re: latest INQ story on hp support" Re: latest INQ story on hp support" Re: latest INQ story on hp support9 OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 27 = Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 27 = Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 27 = Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 27 = Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 27 = Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 27 = Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 27 = Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 27 + Re: Queue manager alpha 8.3 crashes VAX 7.2  Re: Structure of HELPLIB.HLB Re: Structure of HELPLIB.HLB Re: Structure of HELPLIB.HLB! Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questions ! Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questions ! Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questions ! Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questions ! Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questions ! Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questions ! Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questions  We're all going to die!!!  Re: We're all going to die!!!   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 10:47:03 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), Subject: Re: All is not well at the HP board+ Message-ID: <4ohhp7Femh15U1@individual.net>   , In article <45230B6D.5BE14703@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:D >> probably saw the show where it was pointed out that the reords ofC >> who called who are the property of the phone company and they do D >> sell them.  You may not be able to find out what was said withoutB >> violating the law, but who called who is available, legally, to >> anyone with the cash. > E > Well, perhaps it is time for the USA to pass some data privacy laws J > then. Seems to me that the details of your relationship with any company- > should be kept between you and the company.   I When you talk on the phone, unless you scramble it, you should understand K that you have no reasonable expectation of privacy.  If I stand on a street M corner and talk with Joe should I expect that the government should prosecute F anyine who says, "Hey, I just saw bill talking to joe on the corner."?I The phone records are the property of the phone company and they are just K another valuable business asset.  Of course, they could stop using them and ? compensate for the loss of revenue by tripling your phone bill.    > J > If data is legally obtainable, why did they have to resort to pretexting > then ?  J Don't know, wasn't there.  Maybe they hired an incompetent PI.  Of course,M the true legality or illegality has yet to be deteermined.  Using a pseudonym G is not in itself illegal.  Authors do it all the time.  It is yet to be G determined what laws w(if any) were actually broken.  This would not be H the first time some over-zealous assistant DA said he had a case only toE find out that while immoral and unethical the actions were not really  illegal.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 06:47:34 -0500  From: briggs@encompasserve.org; Subject: Re: Alpha object file changes - version 6.2 to 8.2 3 Message-ID: <S+YdrrakkEOt@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <45231BA8.43F158D6@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Dave Froble wrote:J >> I've never had a problem with VMS to VMS FTP, but, it's possible that I >> didn't attempt such on V6.2.  > J > Remember that variable length files are often conidered to be TEXT filesJ > when the times comes to do file transfers, so it is not unreasonable forF > an FTP client to transmit the file as CR-LF terminated records. If aA > record happens to have a CR and/or LF, it is quite possible the E > receiving system will store that one records as 2 separate records.   D If one were doing ASCII transfers, that would indeed be the case andG the risk of a CR-LF sequence in the record contents would be a relevant 
 down side.  F With binary transfers, the VMS receiver will normally use fixed lengthA 512 byte records and treat any CR-LF in the data stream as binary 9 data.  One might $ SET FILE to change this to stream-CRLF B format and then $ CONVERT to change it to variable length records.B Theoretically, this might work.  As a practical matter I know thatA there are serious issues around binary data integrity with stream D format record terminators and trailing null bytes in the records andB would not hold out much hope.  Also, the VMS sender is unlikely toE insert CR-LFs into the data stream in the first place when the source D file has RMS Record Attributes: None.  That means that you'd alreadyG lost your record boundaries after the first hop -- game over, you lose.   B Normally, a direct FTP between two VMS hosts will negotiate a dataC transfer technique that preserves binary data integrity, RMS record C boundaries and VMS file attributes.  At one time there was an issue A if one side of the transfer was UCX and the other was Multinet or B TCPWare but I think that they all play nicely together these days.  J At a guess, this .OBJ file was transferred through an intermediate Unix or? Windows box and lost file attributes/record terminators at that  intermediate hop.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 15:24:34 +0200 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> ; Subject: Re: Alpha object file changes - version 6.2 to 8.2 J Message-ID: <paul.sture.nospam-7F326F.15243404102006@mac.sture.homeip.net>  3 In article <S+YdrrakkEOt@eisner.encompasserve.org>,    briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:   <snip>  L > At a guess, this .OBJ file was transferred through an intermediate Unix orA > Windows box and lost file attributes/record terminators at that  > intermediate hop.   G Just grabbing an object file that happens to be lying around, but that   anyone can reproduce...    $ type uaidef.mar  ; UAIDEF.MAR  *         $uaidef GLOBAL  ; define as global         .end $ macro uaidef   A dir/full uaidef.obj shows:  E Record format:   Variable length, maximum 0 bytes, longest 4072 bytes    Now use EDT on the object:  B $ edit/edt uaidef.obj   ! display symbolic representation of bytes  E I'm just going to paste the first few bytes of each record here, but  - spot the nulls and line feeds in the records.   D ^H^@@^@^@^@^B^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@%$^O^@^@^F.MAIN.^BV1 4-OCT-2006 15:10 ^H^@^X^@^A^@AMAC V4.1-20-3381U< <LF>^@^O^@^@^@^@^@^@^X^@^D^@^@^@^@^@^@^@       .  ABS  .^@^         ^@<LF>^@^@^@^@^@^@^@  F 'Tis no wonder that this can mess up in FTP transfers through non-VMS  systems.   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 08:15:59 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ; Subject: Re: Alpha object file changes - version 6.2 to 8.2 3 Message-ID: <yUwpUh6cLupV@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <duydndSSssMbhL7YnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > J > I've never had a problem with VMS to VMS FTP, but, it's possible that I  > didn't attempt such on V6.2.  G    That depends very much on what client and server you're using.  Most D    play well together.  UCX didn't used to play well and then rolledG    its own instead.  The folks maintaining UCX think Multinet recognise >    and does what UCX does, but I've not found that to be true.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 09:41:09 -0500  From: briggs@encompasserve.org; Subject: Re: Alpha object file changes - version 6.2 to 8.2 3 Message-ID: <XD2Tzfy7+Y33@eisner.encompasserve.org>   | In article <paul.sture.nospam-7F326F.15243404102006@mac.sture.homeip.net>, Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> writes:5 > In article <S+YdrrakkEOt@eisner.encompasserve.org>, " >  briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: [...] M >> At a guess, this .OBJ file was transferred through an intermediate Unix or B >> Windows box and lost file attributes/record terminators at that >> intermediate hop. > I > Just grabbing an object file that happens to be lying around, but that   > anyone can reproduce...  >  > $ type uaidef.mar  > ; UAIDEF.MAR > , >         $uaidef GLOBAL  ; define as global >         .end > $ macro uaidef >  > A dir/full uaidef.obj shows: > G > Record format:   Variable length, maximum 0 bytes, longest 4072 bytes  >  > Now use EDT on the object: > D > $ edit/edt uaidef.obj   ! display symbolic representation of bytes > G > I'm just going to paste the first few bytes of each record here, but  / > spot the nulls and line feeds in the records.  >  [snip] > H > 'Tis no wonder that this can mess up in FTP transfers through non-VMS 
 > systems.  B With binary transfers, line feeds and nulls are no problem at all.! FTP is binary safe in that sense.   ! I just ran a similar test and got   E $ ! Original file -- variable length records with no carriage control  $ DUMP TEST.OBJ /RECORD=COUNT=2 P Dump of file EISNER$DRA3:[DECUSERVE_USER.BRIGGS]TEST. on  4-OCT-2006 09:26:18.21              OBJ;62 ; File ID (18483,52137,0)   End of file block 4 / Allocated 6   @ Record number 1 (00000001), 66 (0042) bytes, RFA(0001,0000,0000)  <  00000000 00000000 00020000 00420008 ..B............. 000000<  20014E49 414D2454 53455409 00000FF8 ....TEST$MAIN.  000010<  313A3930 20363030 322D5443 4F2D3420  4-OCT-2006 09:1 000020<  00000000 00000000 00000000 00000034 4............... 000030<                                 0000 ................ 000040$                                 ^^^^@ Record number 2 (00000002), 29 (001D) bytes, RFA(0001,0000,0044)  <  726F4620 7161706D 6F430001 001D0008 ......Compaq For 000000$  ^^^^                           ^^^^<        30 38372D32 2E375620 6E617274 tran V7.2-780... 000010  A Record number 3 (00000003), 288 (0120) bytes, RFA(0001,0000,0064)   <  05880004 00180000 00000000 0120000A .. ............. 000000$                                 ^^^^  F $ ! Result of binary FTP out and back -- fixed length 512 byte records  P Dump of file EISNER$DRA3:[DECUSERVE_USER.BRIGGS]GORK. on  4-OCT-2006 09:26:38.05              OBJ;3: File ID (1926,18761,0)   End of file block 4 / Allocated 6  3 Virtual block number 1 (00000001), 512 (0200) bytes   <  00000000 00000000 00020000 00420008 ..B............. 000000<  20014E49 414D2454 53455409 00000FF8 ....TEST$MAIN.  000010<  313A3930 20363030 322D5443 4F2D3420  4-OCT-2006 09:1 000020<  00000000 00000000 00000000 00000034 4............... 000030<  46207161 706D6F43 0001001D 00080000 ........Compaq F 000040$                             ^^^^^^^^<  0A303837 2D322E37 56206E61 7274726F ortran V7.2-780. 000050  ^^^^^^ <  00058800 04001800 00000000 00012000 . .............. 000060$                                   ^^   D As you can see, line feeds and nulls are safe.  But, as I've written- previously, record boundaries are eliminated.     B An issue that I'm aware of in the area of line feeds and nulls has= to do with the RMS record-oriented interface to stream format A files.  When reading a record with trailing nulls, RMS will strip ; the trailing nulls before returning the record to the user.   C Since VMS .OBJ files use variable length records rather than stream C format, this particular issue is not a concern in the case at hand.    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 04:30:59 -0700 . From: "Ger_Marsh" <marsh_family@btconnect.com>4 Subject: Application concerned about number of CPUs?B Message-ID: <1159961459.628795.209720@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   Hello fellow VMS'ers!    Here's another cracker...   ' Interprocess communication like this...   E Internal application queue -> process -> mailbox -> process -> MQueue  (IBM's)   E (OpenVMS V7.3-2; programs a combination of Basic, BLISS and C (for MQ E comms), AST's implicated as the C programs are linked to the PTHREADS  rtl to overcome 0 some earlier problem lost in the mists of time!)  F This mechanism has been running happily for years and then we upgraded fromG a four processor Alphaserver 8200 to a six processor GS60 hoping to see : a significant improvement in performance. Nothing else was changed.  @ Intermittently (the worse type of problem to solve!) the processE reading from the internal queue now does not inform the other process A that it has read something. I suspect an AST delivery problem but 
 cannot seeG why the speed of processor or the number of processors would cause this  problem.  @ On failing back to the 4 processor system, the problem no longer occurs.   E Attempting to cause a failure on a test alpha by changing multithread  parameter has not worked.   F BTW, the programs also have had UPCALLS enabled to overcome an earlierD problem where they would just ACCVIO. (Only got the solution to thatB one due to a post to COV.) The do not have multiple kernel threads enabled though.   F As my knowledge does not and will not ever stretch to the complexitiesG of interaction between the posix threads and ast's, I hope someone here # can shed some light on the problem.   F Bye for now - keep the flag a flying, even though it's looking ragged!   Gerald.    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 09:20:42 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 8 Subject: Re: Application concerned about number of CPUs?3 Message-ID: <Eo3IEAb+hPsd@eisner.encompasserve.org>   s In article <1159961459.628795.209720@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "Ger_Marsh" <marsh_family@btconnect.com> writes:   H > This mechanism has been running happily for years and then we upgraded > fromI > a four processor Alphaserver 8200 to a six processor GS60 hoping to see < > a significant improvement in performance. Nothing else was
 > changed. > B > Intermittently (the worse type of problem to solve!) the processG > reading from the internal queue now does not inform the other process C > that it has read something. I suspect an AST delivery problem but  > cannot seeI > why the speed of processor or the number of processors would cause this 
 > problem. > B > On failing back to the 4 processor system, the problem no longer	 > occurs.   B This type of problem is likely not susceptible to remote analysis.E I believe (extremely) hard work setting up test cases will be needed. D There was a problem like this I found in the early days of Alpha VMSC that turned out to be a race condition involving the OTS$ routines.  --  N ==============================================================================0 DoD Instruction 8500.2 field test sites wanted -- 	http://www.LJK.com/LJK/8500_2_fieldtest.html N ==============================================================================   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 07:43:20 -0700  From: davidc@montagar.com 8 Subject: Re: Application concerned about number of CPUs?B Message-ID: <1159973000.482336.204700@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>   Ger_Marsh wrote: > Hello fellow VMS'ers!  >  > Here's another cracker...  > ) > Interprocess communication like this...  > G > Internal application queue -> process -> mailbox -> process -> MQueue 	 > (IBM's)  > G > (OpenVMS V7.3-2; programs a combination of Basic, BLISS and C (for MQ G > comms), AST's implicated as the C programs are linked to the PTHREADS  > rtl to overcome 2 > some earlier problem lost in the mists of time!) > H > This mechanism has been running happily for years and then we upgraded > fromI > a four processor Alphaserver 8200 to a six processor GS60 hoping to see < > a significant improvement in performance. Nothing else was
 > changed. > B > Intermittently (the worse type of problem to solve!) the processG > reading from the internal queue now does not inform the other process C > that it has read something. I suspect an AST delivery problem but  > cannot seeI > why the speed of processor or the number of processors would cause this 
 > problem. > B > On failing back to the 4 processor system, the problem no longer	 > occurs.  > G > Attempting to cause a failure on a test alpha by changing multithread  > parameter has not worked.  > H > BTW, the programs also have had UPCALLS enabled to overcome an earlierF > problem where they would just ACCVIO. (Only got the solution to thatD > one due to a post to COV.) The do not have multiple kernel threads > enabled though.  > H > As my knowledge does not and will not ever stretch to the complexitiesI > of interaction between the posix threads and ast's, I hope someone here % > can shed some light on the problem.  > H > Bye for now - keep the flag a flying, even though it's looking ragged!  G This sounds like there is still a bug in the software.  Something isn't B synched right (i.e. possibly you want a pthread_signal_broadcast()F rather than pthread_signal_cond()).  Of you are signalling a conditionG without being the mutex being locked.  The number of processors is just ' better at exposing this race condition.    > 	 > Gerald.    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 07:53:48 -0700 . From: "Ger_Marsh" <marsh_family@btconnect.com>8 Subject: Re: Application concerned about number of CPUs?C Message-ID: <1159973628.569350.136810@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   ) Thank you for the quick responses, gents.   = I should have stated that the applications themselves are not B multi-threaded and do not call any pthreads routines, at least notF directly. They were linked with the pthreads lib only to overcome some5 hang in the early days whose cause I cannot remember.   G I suspect that the link then resulted in us having to enable upcalls to C overcome an ACCVIO when we upgraded MQ to its multithreaded version  (V5.1).   D Thanks again - I really don't think we will be able to duplicate the2 error on anything other than the live environment.  E Our next stage is to move the apps back to the 6-processor system and F disable two of the processors with STOP/CPU. At least then we can tell whether it's speed related.   
 Thanks again,    Gerald.    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 08:11:04 -0700   From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>8 Subject: Re: Application concerned about number of CPUs?B Message-ID: <1159974664.715672.172670@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>  G parhaps you can use SET PROCESS/AFFINITY to change the set of CPUs used C by this application (as part of the debugging) rather than stopping  CPUs.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 00:08:05 +08003 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> Y Subject: Re: Compile and gone! (Was: Re: VMS>7.3 Linker Manual - I64 Short Data restricti 1 Message-ID: <eg0m2i$gej$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    G'day John,   I As always, thanks very much for the detailed and useful reply! (If only I  wasn't promised to Stu :-)  G We'll look at the Linker stats. But you've got no idea how much trouble 4 you've caused by recommending /OPTIMIZE so strongly.  
 Thanks again.    Cheers Richard Maher  3 "John Reagan" <john.reagan@hp.com> wrote in message * news:V4QUg.638$Tj3.543@news.cpqcorp.net... > Richard Maher wrote: >  > > K > > Don't know what happened between 8.1 and 8.3 with the Linker or whether G > > BASIC got less agressive in it's short data annexing but who cares?  > >  > G > The linker was improved to better pool address constants requested by J > more than one module.  I think it was done for V8.2-1, but it might have > been V8.3. > J > You can get the linker to output some diagnostic information about which: > modules requested the most short data/address constants. >  > Define >  > $ define link$$sdata_stats 1 > I > and link.  The linker will give you a table (written to SYS$OUTPUT, not F > the .MAP) of modules and how many LTOFFs (address constants) and FDsG > (function descriptors) needed.  If you end up with BASIC modules that I > seem to request huge numbers of address constants, we would need to see J > some source files so we can figure out which language constructs are not > playing nice.  > J > BTW, make sure you compile with /OPTIMIZE.  As I've found with COBOL, ifJ > the front-ends ask the back-end for addresses of things like $LOCAL$+10,I > $LOCAL$+20, etc.  The optimizer will reduce them to a few base-bindings F > and add the 10, 20, etc. at run-time.  Without the optimization, theJ > object file will be full of address requests for $LOCAL$+10, $LOCAL$+20, > etc. >  > --  
 > John Reagan 7 > HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO/COBOL for OpenVMS Project Leader  > Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 15:05:25 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>Y Subject: Re: Compile and gone! (Was: Re: VMS>7.3 Linker Manual - I64 Short Data restricti 0 Message-ID: <V4QUg.638$Tj3.543@news.cpqcorp.net>   Richard Maher wrote:   > I > Don't know what happened between 8.1 and 8.3 with the Linker or whether E > BASIC got less agressive in it's short data annexing but who cares?  >   F The linker was improved to better pool address constants requested by I more than one module.  I think it was done for V8.2-1, but it might have  
 been V8.3.  I You can get the linker to output some diagnostic information about which  8 modules requested the most short data/address constants.   Define   $ define link$$sdata_stats 1  H and link.  The linker will give you a table (written to SYS$OUTPUT, not E the .MAP) of modules and how many LTOFFs (address constants) and FDs  F (function descriptors) needed.  If you end up with BASIC modules that H seem to request huge numbers of address constants, we would need to see I some source files so we can figure out which language constructs are not  
 playing nice.   I BTW, make sure you compile with /OPTIMIZE.  As I've found with COBOL, if  I the front-ends ask the back-end for addresses of things like $LOCAL$+10,  H $LOCAL$+20, etc.  The optimizer will reduce them to a few base-bindings E and add the 10, 20, etc. at run-time.  Without the optimization, the  I object file will be full of address requests for $LOCAL$+10, $LOCAL$+20,   etc.   --   John Reagan 5 HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO/COBOL for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:37:17 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ) Subject: Re: CSWB: disappearing bookmarks 9 Message-ID: <m4ednUafwuG3Tr7YnZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@libcom.com>    Steven M. Schweda wrote:) > From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  > 3 >>> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: , >>> With (the latest version of) CSWB, [...] > ' >> Just a WAG, I don't use the product.  > J >    Why not?  On an EV6 system, it's not actually torture.  (At least not3 > by the currently evolving definition of torture.)   ? My only working Alphas are AlphaStation 200 4/233 systems, EV4.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 23:44:41 +08003 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> ' Subject: Re: Damning with faint praise? 1 Message-ID: <eg0kml$ej3$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi Paul,  7 > Sorry. I didn't quite follow your attributions there,   I Well, it's all about you isn't it? Let's hold everyone else back and stop 4 the bus just so Paul Sture can catch-up. Only child?  H > by the wonders of a decent newsreader, and without having to resort toI > Google, I can take you straight to this piece posted by John Reinhardt.   G By the wonders of two-hands and a torch I wouldn't be surprised if Paul I Sture could manage to find his arse in the dark. Whether or not he'd then H have the mental capacity to distinguish it from his elbow is an entirely different matter!   J If you have trouble with attributions then may I respectfully suggest thatK you take it up with John fucking Reinhardt (who's had more than enough time H to respond to your crap!) and take your vandal's spray can away from theI purity of my posts. (And if I thought for a minute that your reference to H Google echoed a post from that stalker with his nipple-clamps that seemsK incapable of *not* responding to my posts, then I'd drag it up and kick his  arse all over COV as well)  J My post and "Quotations" were accurate, but rather than seeing my posts asI just another opportunity to sing "I'm too sexy for my shirt" all over the K internet, if you'd have liked to go to the trouble of typing "John Gillings I is one of the best VMS people on planet earth." into Google it might be a K revelation to you. Especially seeing as you seem to have finally discovered  HP's ITRC forum.  K I can tell you that no one was more surprised than me when the entry on top + of the list was *not* "Guy Peleg's pillow"!   H So is it ok if I put the bus back in gear again and everybody gets to go> about there business? Has your pointless curiosity been sated?   Regards Richard Maher   < "Paul Sture" <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> wrote in messageD news:paul.sture.nospam-785F50.03103602102006@mac.sture.homeip.net...3 > In article <efpmdn$689$1@news-02.connect.com.au>, 7 >  "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote:  >  > > Hi Guy,  > >  > > Guy Peleg gushed: - 0 > > "John Gillings is one of the best VMS people > > on planet earth."  > ? > Sorry. I didn't quite follow your attributions there, but ...  > H > by the wonders of a decent newsreader, and without having to resort toI > Google, I can take you straight to this piece posted by John Reinhardt.  >  > --- start quote ---- > > > "From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> > Newsgroups: comp.os.vms 9 > Subject: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering " > Date: 28 Sep 2006 06:58:15 -0700 > H > There is a parallel (although shorter) thread on ITRC about Hoff's andF > others leaving OpenVMS Engineering.  For those that don't visit overF > there I'm cross-posting one particularly interesting part (hopefullyE > the OP will forgive me) which puts an positive spin on events.  The H > clip follows, it is in answer to the question if the particular person+ > was still at OVE (OpenVMS Engineering)...  > I >  "Well, since you asked... yes and no. For now, yes, but I've also been H > selected in the latest round of Work Force Reduction (WFR). <..snip..> > E > I am also "parting amicably" from HP, and that's NOT intended to be A > sarcastic. Mr Hurd is following a strategy of reducing costs by H > restructuring the workforce. I'm not sure how or why management selectG > particular individuals, that's not really relevant. The same thing is I > happening in most large corporations, and there's not a lot of point in A > complaining about it. Just accept what's happening and move on.  > A > In the long term this should really be seen as a GOOD thing for C > OpenVMS. Consider that most of us in engineering and services are F > getting fairly old! Where are the young replacements for the future?H > Although it's called "WFR" it really isn't, as every person who leavesG > from Nashua or Sydney is replaced by *several* people in the new call F > centres and engineering hubs. These are young, keen graduates, readyG > and able to take on the maintenance and development OpenVMS products.  > E > Thus the population of OpenVMS service and development engineers is F > actually INCREASING, and the average age is coming down. This is theD > future. Granted they don't (yet) have the experience that Hoff andI > myself have gathered over the decades, but they won't take very long to E > get up to speed. Look at Guy Peleg! He was only with HP for what, 6 H > years? He's younger than my oldest child, and look what he's achieved.E > In effect, he's been replaced by maybe SEVEN people just like him 6 E > years ago. Even if each of them is only HALF as good as Guy, that's ! > still a huge long term benefit.  > G > The corporation sees that they get more "bang for the buck" by hiring I > several new graduates than retaining one of us old guys. The last thing G > you, as customers want to see is for OpenVMS engineering to stagnate, F > and 5-10 years from now be completely vacated when everyone retires.H > This way it's far more likely there will be engineers into the future. > C > What YOU can do as customers is support the product by purchasing D > service contracts. Without revenue, the product WILL die. That's aF > simple economic fact. So, USE your contract. Log cases to ask adviceD > and report issues. More cases mean more engineers needed to handleE > them. You should also feed back any complaints or criticisms of the I > quality of products or service you receive, but, MORE IMPORTANTLY, also A > feed back any positives or praise for individuals who give good 
 > service. > D > The biggest threat to OpenVMS is silence from customers. Make your > voices and opinions heard."  >  > H > There are some good points made, especially about breaking the silenceF > and making yourself heard.  At lot of us here are just hobbyists nowG > though so I'm not sure how much we can do.  Those of you lucky enough E > still to be using VMS in your job and that do have contract support C > should follow the above advice to the fullest.  Make your support F > calls, ask your questions, be heard, be the squeaky wheel.  Don't be > part of the silence. >  >  >   John H. Reinhardt  >  > --- end quote ...  >  > --   > Paul Sture  > "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote in message+ news:efpmdn$689$1@news-02.connect.com.au... 	 > Hi Guy,  >  > Guy Peleg gushed: - . > "John Gillings is one of the best VMS people > on planet earth."  >  > Gilley retorted: -3 > "Look at Guy Peleg! He was only with HP for what, 6 > 6 years? He's younger than my oldest child, and look6 > what he's achieved. In effect, he's been replaced by/ > maybe SEVEN people just like him 6 years ago. 3 > Even if each of them is only HALF as good as Guy, ) > that's still a huge long term benefit."  > H > Is it just me, or is there a certain lack of symmetry here? Trouble in > paradise?  > L > Recent posts in cov had led me to believe that Brudden had scored the No.1K > draft pick for the season, but surely the above description could equally G > apply to a snotty-nosed kid in short pants who's still wet behind the  ears? G > I'm confused. (If only a HP Moderator's Brown-Shirt gave one the same I > book-burning rights in COV (as it does in ITRC) then we could sort this  > whole mess out!) > D > Anyway Guy, keep going mate. I'm sure you'll get there in the end. >  > Regards Richard Maher  >    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 06:47:33 -0700   From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>9 Subject: Re: FT.com - spy methods used in other companies A Message-ID: <1159969653.141420.7130@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   " pretexting not illegal but will be; http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/15658513.htm    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 14:40:05 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9 Subject: Re: FT.com - spy methods used in other companies + Message-ID: <4ohve5Fe933bU1@individual.net>   A In article <1159969653.141420.7130@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, # 	"Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> writes: $ > pretexting not illegal but will be= > http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/15658513.htm   H As I said in a  previous post, just because the press said something wasI illegal didn't make it so.  The only likely affect of these proposed laws J is that the PI will have to legitimately identify himself and pay a higherE price for the information.  As was pointed out in a recent 60 Minutes G episode this information is regularly sold to third parties who further 
 market it.   bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:05:25 +0200 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> Q Subject: Re: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/familyhome.do?familyId=288 J Message-ID: <paul.sture.nospam-9D81F7.11052504102006@mac.sture.homeip.net>  9 In article <Pu6dnQWbUqwBgr7YnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@libcom.com>, )  Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:    > Steven M. Schweda wrote:? > > From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>  > > < > >> [...]  The interface sucks.  Wait until you try to postK > >> and you only see the first post, not the subsequent ones.  So you open C > >> up two windows.  One to post and one to read the thread.  Fun.  > > J > >    Don't worry.  For the past week or so, the probability of getting aK > > proper response from the forum Web server has been running around 20%.  I > > With a success rate like that, it feels so good when you get anything + > > back that the format seems unimportant.  > > I > >    A few weeks ago, I had some similar trouble (though not for such a L > > long time), and fed back a complaint.  The moron who responded sent me aF > > 9.5MB e-mail message containing three .bmp screen shots instead ofL > > telling me that it worked for him.  When I suggested that "It worked forL > > me." would have provided a 250000:1 improvement in storage efficiency, I > > got no reply.  > K > He was probably a bit miffed that you didn't appreciate the extra effort  G > he went through just for you, as he sits there behind a T3 link.  :-)    LOL!   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 12:24:31 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)+ Subject: Re: latest INQ story on hp support + Message-ID: <4ohnfvFept51U1@individual.net>   9 In article <Pu6dnQibUqyEgL7YnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@libcom.com>, * 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > JF Mezei wrote:  >> Neil Rieck wrote:4 >>> Yikes! The rumours may have been true after all./ >>> Damn those MBAs and their hyper-capitalism. A >>> They won't be happy until every tech job is pushed off shore.  >>   >>  F >> When Compaq decided to "mature" ALLIN1, tyhe senior engineers there= >> "parted amicably", and support/maintenance moved to India.  >>  K >> Note: it is a lot easier to convince a corporation to reverse a decision # >> before it has been made public.   >>   >>  G >> *IF* those working closely within the VMS group fear that VMS may be I >> "matured" and put in maintenance mode, I **URGE** them to get in touch J >> privately with some of the frequent C.O.V. contributors.  **IF** VMS isD >> at this stage now, then getting the customer base to cotact HP toI >> convince them to not take that route would be the only way to pre-empt ' >> this decision becoming irreversible.  >>  J >> I realise that HP has probably become a police state with all employeesG >> fearing being spied on. But there are way for HP employees to get in : >> touch with customers if it comes down to help save VMS. > H > If the decision has been made, I doubt anything anyone could do would G > reverse it.  This ain't Sun or Dell where customers are listened to.  G > Hasn't the last 5 years taught anyone anything?  Hasn't it been made  I > clear that HP realizes some decisions will lose significant customers,   > and they're fine with that?  > F > Nobody has been able to defeat the USA, to the point of taking them H > down, with strength.  But they may have noted Reagan's winning of the J > cold war via the almighty dollar, and figured out how to defeat the USA H > once and for all.  When all we have left are hamburger flippers we're  > finished.  > H > Naturally we have fools running the large companies, and they've been   > totally taken in by this ploy. > F > Ok, if JF can have black helicopters, why can't I?  Wonder how much 3 > longer we'll be able to afford black helicopters?   G What makes you think there are no black helicopters?  You mentioned the G cold war and us winning it up above.  Many years ago (mid to late 80's, I defintely not later than early 90's) I watched a documentary on PBS about F the history of the formation of unions in the US.  Now, realizing thatF PBS seems like the most unlikely candidate to air the dirty laundry ofF the commies, the primary focus of this documentary was one person (no,E I don't remember details like names, heck, I just came from breakfast F and can hardly remember what I ate :-).  As the story progressed, thisF person flipped back and forth in their scrap book as a lead-in to eachF segment.  One picture was them at union formation meetings or activelyH organizing strikers.  The next would be an American Communist Party get-H together.  This person who was influential in both spheres made it quiteG clear that the communists had much to do with forming unions and it had E nothing to do with "helping the downtrodden workers".  It was so that M when the USSR made that bold move we all feared, attacking the US militarily, K they would have control of the workforce in order to disrupt the production K facilities here.  They learned from WWII.  Even with a war to fight we were I able to keep our production going.  Germany lost much more from a lack of H logistics than from a lack of strategy.  The commies knew even then thatK it was not on the battlefield that the biggest battles would be fought, but  in the factories.   F Of course, all of this does not mean that anyone is actively trying toE destroy american industry (although I can name a few likely culprits, J and they are not the ones many would expect).  First, you have to considerF one of my favorite (and stated here before) adages, "Never atribute to< malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."   billH PS.  The above goes a long way towards explaining why I am as anti-unionI as I am.  Both the above knowledge and my personal experience with unions J have taught me that while the commies may not be the driving force anymoreJ helping the downtrodden workers isn't either.  It's still all about power.     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:28:52 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> + Subject: Re: latest INQ story on hp support ; Message-ID: <4523b6f8$0$5897$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>   5 "Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message  3 news:Pu6dnQibUqyEgL7YnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@libcom.com...  > JF Mezei wrote:  [...snip...] > L > Nobody has been able to defeat the USA, to the point of taking them down, K > with strength.  But they may have noted Reagan's winning of the cold war  J > via the almighty dollar, and figured out how to defeat the USA once and H > for all.  When all we have left are hamburger flippers we're finished. > H > Naturally we have fools running the large companies, and they've been   > totally taken in by this ploy. >  [...snip...]   === Food For Thought ===  D I saw a documentary a few nights back (I think it was on "Discovery 9 Civilizations" channel) which stated something like this:   G Between the years 600-1200, China was the most advanced and productive  D culture on the planet. Advancement slowed and then stopped when the G activities of bureaucrats and administrators sucked the life force (my   words) out of the society.  H The program also talked about a wave of innovation that always seems to K travel from east to west and was responsible for brining "the renaissance"  F and "the industrial revolution" to Europe. A wave of bureaucracy also G follows the wave of innovation but it is dealt with in various ways by  L various people including the French Revolution (where people of noble blood E were trying to exercise their god given rights to control the middle  	 classes).   L The program talked very little about the wave of innovation coming to North I America but only stated that US businesses moving their manufacturing to  D China is just another example of the wave of innovation moving west.  L So this got me thinking about how financial people destroyed companies like  Enron, Nortel, WorldComm, etc. ( K http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_scandal#List_of_corporate_scandals ) I and that these people are part of our wave of bureaucracy. Ten years ago  M people like this would not have been allowed to kill off Alpha but they seem  G really good at other sneaky stuff like bugging phones, bugging emails,  K pretexting private identities, and moving employee jobs off-shore in order   to increase their own bonuses.  I Even though China is a communist country I'll bet our MBA bureaucracy is  ( bigger than their political bureaucracy.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.9 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html     ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 07:37:02 -0700   From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>+ Subject: Re: latest INQ story on hp support C Message-ID: <1159972622.515084.267090@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   8 when you ring will there be someone to answer the phone?/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5406270.stm    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 10:28:07 -04003 From: "Peter Weaver" <info-vax@weaverconsulting.ca> + Subject: Re: latest INQ story on hp support 6 Message-ID: <0aa101c6e7c3$2d519c80$2802a8c0@CHARONVAX>   ----- Original Message -----  ) From: "Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  >...H > If the decision has been made, I doubt anything anyone could do would G > reverse it.  This ain't Sun or Dell where customers are listened to.  M > Hasn't the last 5 years taught anyone anything?  Hasn't it been made clear  G > that HP realizes some decisions will lose significant customers, and   > they're fine with that?    >...  I Right, I demonstrated to HP that the "Natural Language Search Engine" in  K ITRC did not work more than a month before the DSN system was scheduled to  H be shutdown. Several people in HP agreed that new search engine did not K work. But I was told that the decision was made and there was nothing that   could be done to stop it.    Peter Weaver www.weaverconsulting.ca - CHARON-VAX  CHARON-AXP Reflection PreciseMail    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 10:31:55 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) + Subject: Re: latest INQ story on hp support 3 Message-ID: <YSsZC49dgkQK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <4ohnfvFept51U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:   [...]   # > Many years ago (mid to late 80's, K > defintely not later than early 90's) I watched a documentary on PBS about H > the history of the formation of unions in the US.  Now, realizing thatH > PBS seems like the most unlikely candidate to air the dirty laundry of > the commies,   [...]   A    Damn PBS, there they go dealing with reality again rather than /    fitting into someone's preconceived notions.   D    Yes, I'm quite aware that the parts of reality they've been doingG    lately seems to fit in with trying to get funding out of a far right     administration.  ; > They learned from WWII.  Even with a war to fight we were K > able to keep our production going.  Germany lost much more from a lack of J > logistics than from a lack of strategy.  The commies knew even then thatM > it was not on the battlefield that the biggest battles would be fought, but  > in the factories.   >    The show you watched may have been on PBS, but I think yourE    conclusions belong on "In Search Of...".  You been drinking Vulcan     wine lately?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:47:48 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> + Subject: Re: latest INQ story on hp support 9 Message-ID: <BvydnbMFfo0_SL7YnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: >> JF Mezei wrote: >>> Dave Froble wrote:Q >>>> You just don't get it, do you?  The MBAs have taken over and ARE the bosses.  >>> H >>> HP, especially at this point in time, would be very concerned with aG >>> public display of customer dissatisfaction. PR is very important to / >>> those MBA. That is how they get "measured". / >> Worked for Alpha.  Sure, why not, try again.  > J > It worked for VMS the year before. You, of all people, should know that.  I No, it didn't.  When some of us met with VMS management in an attempt to  G get them to do a better job of promoting VMS that piece of information  F was tossed out while discussing recent history.  It was Rich Marcello H who convinced his management to allow him to attempt a VMS renaissance, I which was mildly successful.  Customer input had nothing to do with that.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:50:16 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> + Subject: Re: latest INQ story on hp support ; Message-ID: <4523d81b$0$5899$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>   I "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message  - news:YSsZC49dgkQK@eisner.encompasserve.org... E > In article <4ohnfvFept51U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill   > Gunshannon) writes:  >  [...snip...] > ? >   The show you watched may have been on PBS, but I think your F >   conclusions belong on "In Search Of...".  You been drinking Vulcan >   wine lately? > J Hey hold on a minute. There's no such thing as Vulcan wine. Maybe you are   referring to Klingon Blood Wine?  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 12:20:48 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> + Subject: Re: latest INQ story on hp support ; Message-ID: <4523df43$0$5940$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>   6 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message % news:4ohnfvFept51U1@individual.net...  [...snip...]J > PS.  The above goes a long way towards explaining why I am as anti-unionK > as I am.  Both the above knowledge and my personal experience with unions L > have taught me that while the commies may not be the driving force anymoreL > helping the downtrodden workers isn't either.  It's still all about power. >     OK now I see your point of view.  M But you have to admit that if there was a communist component to unions, our  M respective governments would make them illegal. I've been a union member for  L 33 years and my union dues are 100% tax deductible (at least in Canada; I'm L not sure about the tax laws in the US). Unions got lots of bad press 50, or J more, years ago because of ties to "far left wackos" AND "infiltration by K organized crime". Today it's a different story. The people in my union are  K more like members of the early craft guilds. In my opinion we are the only  M people in most companies with pride in what we do. (It's the MBA's that take  L the money then run).  But my final word on unions is this: upper management J in most companies today negotiate their compensation agreements through a F lawyer or some other such specialist. Now the same thing happens when J rank-and-file employees negotiate hire a professional to negotiate for us  during the bargaining process.  ) It's just another example of yin-yang :-)   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada." http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 17:44:47 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)+ Subject: Re: latest INQ story on hp support + Message-ID: <4oia8fFenkffU1@individual.net>   3 In article <YSsZC49dgkQK@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:X > In article <4ohnfvFept51U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >  > [...]  > $ >> Many years ago (mid to late 80's,L >> defintely not later than early 90's) I watched a documentary on PBS aboutI >> the history of the formation of unions in the US.  Now, realizing that I >> PBS seems like the most unlikely candidate to air the dirty laundry of  >> the commies,  >  > [...]  > C >    Damn PBS, there they go dealing with reality again rather than 1 >    fitting into someone's preconceived notions.  > F >    Yes, I'm quite aware that the parts of reality they've been doingI >    lately seems to fit in with trying to get funding out of a far right  >    administration. > < >> They learned from WWII.  Even with a war to fight we wereL >> able to keep our production going.  Germany lost much more from a lack ofK >> logistics than from a lack of strategy.  The commies knew even then that N >> it was not on the battlefield that the biggest battles would be fought, but >> in the factories. > @ >    The show you watched may have been on PBS, but I think yourG >    conclusions belong on "In Search Of...".  You been drinking Vulcan  >    wine lately?   K Not sure what conclusion you mean.  The person the documentary was using as I a guide left nothing to the imagination.  They flat out stated what their L intention was and who had directed them to do it.  And they were quite proud of their accomplishments.   J Communism as practiced in the USSR was not differnt than the unions today./ The common man be damned, it's all about power.    bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 17:46:47 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)+ Subject: Re: latest INQ story on hp support + Message-ID: <4oiac7FenkffU2@individual.net>   * In article <eg0n60$j$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>,! 	david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: i > In article <4523d81b$0$5899$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:  >>K >>"Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message  / >>news:YSsZC49dgkQK@eisner.encompasserve.org... G >>> In article <4ohnfvFept51U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill   >>> Gunshannon) writes:  >>>  >>[...snip...] >>> A >>>   The show you watched may have been on PBS, but I think your H >>>   conclusions belong on "In Search Of...".  You been drinking Vulcan >>>   wine lately? >>> L >>Hey hold on a minute. There's no such thing as Vulcan wine. Maybe you are " >>referring to Klingon Blood Wine? >>? > Actually there is but it has nothing to do with Star Trek see  > L > http://www.savethevulcan.co.uk/  and pickup your personalised Vulcan wine. > 7 > Or of course you could always have a Vulcan Mind Meld  >  > - 1 part Ouzo  > - 1 part Rum 151 Proof  ' Is that a "Mind Meld" or a "Mind Melt"? 6 I am hardly a puritan, but even I wouldn't drink that. :-)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 09:17:03 -0400 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>B Subject: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 27: Message-ID: <45237C0F.8004.8DC0690@squayle.insight.rr.com>   No, the *other* VAX:  F http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/display.var.947332.0.droitwich_vacuum_e$ ntrepreneur_brazier_dies_aged_74.php  
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------8 Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA < stan-at-stanq-dot-com   http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html) "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 13:25:14 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)F Subject: Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 27+ Message-ID: <4ohr1qFeajk0U1@individual.net>   : In article <45237C0F.8004.8DC0690@squayle.insight.rr.com>,5 	"Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com> writes:  > No, the *other* VAX: > H > http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/display.var.947332.0.droitwich_vacuum_e& > ntrepreneur_brazier_dies_aged_74.php >   9 I wonder if he was also responsible for the sales motto:  ?                                     "Nothing sucks like a Vax!"    billE (Who will only give up his Vax, not the vacuum cleaner, when they pry $ them from my cold dead hands!!)  :-)   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 15:44:25 +0200 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> F Subject: Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 27J Message-ID: <paul.sture.nospam-83643B.15442504102006@mac.sture.homeip.net>  + In article <4ohr1qFeajk0U1@individual.net>, *  bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:  < > In article <45237C0F.8004.8DC0690@squayle.insight.rr.com>,7 > 	"Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com> writes:  > > No, the *other* VAX: > > J > > http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/display.var.947332.0.droitwich_vacuum_e( > > ntrepreneur_brazier_dies_aged_74.php > >  > ; > I wonder if he was also responsible for the sales motto:  A >                                     "Nothing sucks like a Vax!"  >   H Dunno, but just like the proper VAX, it was a robustly engineered piece 
 of equipment.    --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 13:49:10 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGF Subject: Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 270 Message-ID: <00A5CB22.CDEA1B46@SendSpamHere.ORG>  V In article <4ohr1qFeajk0U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >  > ; >In article <45237C0F.8004.8DC0690@squayle.insight.rr.com>, 6 >	"Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com> writes: >> No, the *other* VAX:  >>  I >> http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/display.var.947332.0.droitwich_vacuum_e ' >> ntrepreneur_brazier_dies_aged_74.php  >>   > : >I wonder if he was also responsible for the sales motto: @ >                                    "Nothing sucks like a Vax!"   :)  F My wife and I were in the UK for the weekend.  We passed by a shop in E Bilston (please, no "Why the hell were you in Bilston of all places!" F comments) and I saw a VAX in the window.  I told my wife that the unix- crowd used to love this vacuum's sales motto.    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 10:23:23 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) F Subject: Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 273 Message-ID: <ri7MQURBpuF6@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <00A5CB22.CDEA1B46@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  > H > My wife and I were in the UK for the weekend.  We passed by a shop in G > Bilston (please, no "Why the hell were you in Bilston of all places!" H > comments) and I saw a VAX in the window.  I told my wife that the unix/ > crowd used to love this vacuum's sales motto.   F    I've seen them for sale in US stores.  I gladly forgot which chain.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 12:12:01 -0400< From: "Island Computers, D B Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com>F Subject: Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 270 Message-ID: <12i7nannf2u1195@news.supernews.com>   Where the hell is Bliston?   What county?   --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X251  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@islandco.com Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html   H "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:ri7MQURBpuF6@eisner.encompasserve.org... < > In article <00A5CB22.CDEA1B46@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  > > I > > My wife and I were in the UK for the weekend.  We passed by a shop in I > > Bilston (please, no "Why the hell were you in Bilston of all places!" J > > comments) and I saw a VAX in the window.  I told my wife that the unix1 > > crowd used to love this vacuum's sales motto.  > H >    I've seen them for sale in US stores.  I gladly forgot which chain. >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 12:14:50 -0400< From: "Island Computers, D B Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com>F Subject: Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 270 Message-ID: <12i7nfvqtkvg541@news.supernews.com>  L If that's anywhere near Cannock or Wolverhampton, I AM going to ask, what in" "***"'s name were you doing there!F I did a google search - and unless you just sent a wee tike to privateI school or you decided to become either a cheese expert or coalminer there  ain't much to see or do...   --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X251  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@islandco.com Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html   H "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:ri7MQURBpuF6@eisner.encompasserve.org... < > In article <00A5CB22.CDEA1B46@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  > > I > > My wife and I were in the UK for the weekend.  We passed by a shop in I > > Bilston (please, no "Why the hell were you in Bilston of all places!" J > > comments) and I saw a VAX in the window.  I told my wife that the unix1 > > crowd used to love this vacuum's sales motto.  > H >    I've seen them for sale in US stores.  I gladly forgot which chain. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 19:16:55 +0200 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> F Subject: Re: OT:  The inventor of the Vax machine died on September 27J Message-ID: <paul.sture.nospam-82928E.19165504102006@mac.sture.homeip.net>  0 In article <12i7nfvqtkvg541@news.supernews.com>,>  "Island Computers, D B Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote:  N > If that's anywhere near Cannock or Wolverhampton, I AM going to ask, what in$ > "***"'s name were you doing there!H > I did a google search - and unless you just sent a wee tike to privateK > school or you decided to become either a cheese expert or coalminer there  > ain't much to see or do... >    Didn't look hard enough :-)    My guess is this one:   # "Summer's End Festival, Bilston UK"    --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 04:58:06 -0700  From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk4 Subject: Re: Queue manager alpha 8.3 crashes VAX 7.2B Message-ID: <1159963086.143956.209110@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>  G The presentation for the VMS Roadmaps suggest that VAX 7.3 is warranted G with 7.3, 8.2 and 8.3 on Alpha in the same cluster.  That could be just F because 7.2 is not on the support schedules now, either on standard or* prior version with sustaining engineering.   Steve    JF Mezei wrote: . > I am having problesm with the queue manager. > 6 > Currently is running on VAX 7.2 and running of VELO. > I > On the alpha, I point QMAN$MASTER to the SYS$SYSTEM of VELO, and when I J > START/QUEUE/MANAGER, not only does the command fail on the alpha, but itI > also causes the existing queue manager on the vax to crash (generates a G > .DMP file in SYS$SPECIFIC:[SYSEXE]. And START/QUEUE/MANAGER/ON=VELO:: E > causes the same crash. I have to delete the .DMP files and then use C > START/QUEUE VELO$BATCH  and magically I find the queue manager is @ > running on VELO again as it should, but I have to do an ENABLEG > AUTOSTART/QUEUE and then manually start certain non-autostart queues.  > J > So, it looks like I will really have to upgrade my vaxen to 7.3. But canH > anyone confirm that with the VAX running at 7.3, and alpha at 8.3, theE > alpha will be able to connect to a queue manager running on a VAX ?  > G > The release notes for 8.3 don't mention anything about queue manager.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 03:32:32 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: Re: Structure of HELPLIB.HLB , Message-ID: <45236362.84727CD9@teksavvy.com>   BTW, on VMS 8.3 (alpha):   HELP Introduction    yield a BLANK PAGE !!!!!!   H Not quite a way to welcome new VMS users like those newbies in india who/ are now responsible for VMS quality control :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 12:01:45 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> % Subject: Re: Structure of HELPLIB.HLB 9 Message-ID: <-OidnVlxJsF4Rb7YnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > BTW, on VMS 8.3 (alpha): >  > HELP Introduction  >  > yield a BLANK PAGE !!!!!!  > J > Not quite a way to welcome new VMS users like those newbies in india who1 > are now responsible for VMS quality control :-)    Maybe there is a message there?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 12:01:16 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> % Subject: Re: Structure of HELPLIB.HLB 9 Message-ID: <-OidnV5xJsFRRb7YnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote: J > Ever since recent versions of VMS, there seems to have been a far amount< > of disorganisation of the main HELP library (HELPLIB.HLB). > H > For instance, there are now many  subroutine groups that are one theirJ > own instead of being under the "RTL" heading. And this not only cluttersF > the initial HELP listing, but also makes certain selectiosn ackward. > = > For instance, in 8.3, you have ENCRYPT and ENCRYPT_Routines  > D > If you type help ENCR, you bet the initial listing for both and no@ > option to select a subitem for either. You need to type it outH > completely to get ENCRYPT's help, but you can type ENCRYPT_ to get the > routines help. > H > Had they placed the ENCRYPT_Routines in the RTL, it would have removed3 > the confusion and organised evething much better.  >  >  > I > What reason was there to put so many of the "routines" items in the top G > help instead of putting them under RTL  where they logically belong ?   A Sometimes it's hard to find things that are several levels down.  F Putting them at the top level makes them visable.  That said, I agree H with you, some structure is good.  Possibly not so good for non-english 	 speakers.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 03:30:28 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> * Subject: Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questions, Message-ID: <452362E6.8A1D3761@teksavvy.com>   JF Mezei wrote: @ > It is mentioned that PPP and SLIP are borken in 5.5. Damn it !    F In the 5.6 release notes, mention of PPP being broken is removed. SLIP+ goes from "crashing" to "is not supported".   7 They even mention PPP now supported on that IA64 thing.   & Haven't had the time to try it though.  > There is a LOT to learn in there. (SSH, Kerberos, HP SSL etc).      H There is something to say about Windows/MAC installations where you kistH click OK a number of times without reading the dialogues compared to VMS> where you really hacve to read a lot of stuff after the actualF installation process to find out all the new stuff that has been added behind the scenes.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 19:42:45 +08003 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> * Subject: Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questions1 Message-ID: <eg06h2$os9$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi JF,  @ > There is a LOT to learn in there. (SSH, Kerberos, HP SSL etc).   Any mention of IPsec?   I When I spoke with Matt Muggeridge the other week at the Rdb Tech Forum in L Sydney he was very interested in where peoples TCP/IP priorities lay. Once IJ explained how most VMS sites are absolutely gagging for IPsec his eyes litD up like a Christmas Tree! He didn't commit to anything but I got theD distinct impression that he is pullin' out all stops to beat Process: Software to the punch with their Multinet. Stay tuned. . .   Regards Richard Maher   K PS. Now that the Box Jellyfish are once again to begin their seasonal siege L to thos shitty little beaches in the East, it wouldn't surprise me at all to  learn that Matt's on IPsec 24x7.  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:452362E6.8A1D3761@teksavvy.com... > JF Mezei wrote: B > > It is mentioned that PPP and SLIP are borken in 5.5. Damn it ! >  > H > In the 5.6 release notes, mention of PPP being broken is removed. SLIP- > goes from "crashing" to "is not supported".  > 9 > They even mention PPP now supported on that IA64 thing.  > ( > Haven't had the time to try it though. > @ > There is a LOT to learn in there. (SSH, Kerberos, HP SSL etc). >  >  > J > There is something to say about Windows/MAC installations where you kistJ > click OK a number of times without reading the dialogues compared to VMS@ > where you really hacve to read a lot of stuff after the actualH > installation process to find out all the new stuff that has been added > behind the scenes.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 05:49:20 -0700   From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>* Subject: Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questionsC Message-ID: <1159966159.948434.287540@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Richard Maher wrote: <snip> > K > When I spoke with Matt Muggeridge the other week at the Rdb Tech Forum in N > Sydney he was very interested in where peoples TCP/IP priorities lay. Once I  : very good, but will he be still employed by hp next month?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 22:40:57 +08003 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> * Subject: Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questions1 Message-ID: <eg0gv6$9l8$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi Ian,   < > very good, but will he be still employed by hp next month?  L Shit yeah! He's got talent. Not only that, he adds value. (I think there's a pattern developing)    Regards Richard Maher   J PS. I figure redundancy too small to jump; Bums on seats could be an issue
 though :-)  + "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> wrote in message = news:1159966159.948434.287540@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  >  > Richard Maher wrote: > <snip> > > J > > When I spoke with Matt Muggeridge the other week at the Rdb Tech Forum inI > > Sydney he was very interested in where peoples TCP/IP priorities lay.  Once I > < > very good, but will he be still employed by hp next month? >    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 08:07:16 -0700   From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>* Subject: Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questionsB Message-ID: <1159974436.672053.149680@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>   Richard Maher wrote:N > Shit yeah! He's got talent. Not only that, he adds value. (I think there's a > pattern developing)  >   E do you think that either of these things have anything to do with the  selection criteria for WFR?    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 15:06:25 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)* Subject: Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questions+ Message-ID: <4oi0vhFekgioU1@individual.net>   1 In article <eg0gv6$9l8$1@news-02.connect.com.au>, 6 	"Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> writes:	 > Hi Ian,  > = >> very good, but will he be still employed by hp next month?  > N > Shit yeah! He's got talent. Not only that, he adds value. (I think there's a > pattern developing)    So did Guy.    So did Hoff.  % I think there's a pattern developing!    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 23:51:12 +08003 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> * Subject: Re: TCPIP Services V5.5 questions1 Message-ID: <eg0l2s$f2a$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Bill, Bill, Bill,   
 > So did Guy.  >  > So did Hoff.  4 And Christian Moser was a complete waste of space???  L Jim Johnson isn't kickin' arse with WS-AT at Microsoft gearing up for Vista.  G I don't want to have Stuart Davidson's babies for his work on the image 
 activator?  K This is not a fucking popularity contest! The really scary thing is I don't H think anyone knows who's doing the "real" work anymore. Especially those recommending the cuts :-(    Disbelief Richard Maher     5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message % news:4oi0vhFekgioU1@individual.net... 3 > In article <eg0gv6$9l8$1@news-02.connect.com.au>, 7 > "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> writes:  > > Hi Ian,  > > ? > >> very good, but will he be still employed by hp next month?  > > F > > Shit yeah! He's got talent. Not only that, he adds value. (I think	 there's a  > > pattern developing)  > 
 > So did Guy.  >  > So did Hoff. > ' > I think there's a pattern developing!  >  > bill >  > --  L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 00:04:45 +08003 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> " Subject: We're all going to die!!!1 Message-ID: <eg0ls9$g7t$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi Ian,   G > do you think that either of these things have anything to do with the  > selection criteria for WFR?   K I have absolutely no idea but I doubt very much if it's at all personal. My L guess is there's a blanket percentage head-count figure, or if someone couldK be bothered doing the sums (unlikely) a dollar/pound amount to be achieved.   K What is wrong with everyone these days? Never faced a round of redundancies K before? C'mon Ian, in London it was a nightmare! Every six months the usual I "we think you should go permanent", "enter all of your support calls into K the Knowledge Base", "pay no attention to those guys with the nodding heads  who can't speak English".   I The joke is that people here seem to think that customers will be shocked G and leave HP in droves, when the fact is that almost every customer big K enough to have a VMS system is already outsourcing its *own* support staff, 6 Sys Admins, DBAs to the very same people in Bangalore.  J What a bunch of nervous Nellies! I hope I'm never on a plane with you guysE when the engines splutter. (Please do not continue and exaggerate the  analogy)   Cheers Richard Maher  I PS. As far as Matt goes I've had second thoughts; anyone that wears a 70s F retro watch band has to be dodgy. "I am Conan!" Yeah sack his arse :-)  + "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> wrote in message < news:1159974436.672053.149680@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com... >  > Richard Maher wrote:F > > Shit yeah! He's got talent. Not only that, he adds value. (I think	 there's a  > > pattern developing)  > >  > G > do you think that either of these things have anything to do with the  > selection criteria for WFR?  >    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Oct 2006 09:24:37 -0700   From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>& Subject: Re: We're all going to die!!!C Message-ID: <1159979076.964723.179380@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   B Interestingly one of the google sponsered ads displayed when I was reading your posting was  : ---------------------------------------------------------- Speak English Fluently" Correct your English Today. Proven% Speech Improvement Software - VPSL=99 
 EyeSpeak.info 1 ------------------------------------------------- 6 I do belive the google ad engine has a sense of humor.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.545 ************************