1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 11 Oct 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 558       Contents:+ Re: "VMS people can write their own ticket" + Re: "VMS people can write their own ticket" + Re: "VMS people can write their own ticket"  Re: A service to hobbyists0 Re: Cluster uptime - any improvement over this ?6 Re: does Alphaserver DS10 have EV56 or later chip set?# Re: Excessive IO on my emulated vax 0 Former HP CEO Fiorina Pulls No Punches in Memoir4 Re: Former HP CEO Fiorina Pulls No Punches in Memoir4 Re: Former HP CEO Fiorina Pulls No Punches in Memoir4 Re: Former HP CEO Fiorina Pulls No Punches in Memoir4 Re: Heads up: La Fiorina's book coming out next week4 Re: Heads up: La Fiorina's book coming out next weekB How former HP support staff needs to form a new US support center!F Re: How former HP support staff needs to form a new US support center! Re: hp advocacy web site Re: hp advocacy web site% If red hat can do it, so can OpenVMS! * Re: Initializing TK85 tapes on VAX VMS 7.2  Licensing question SSH vs Telnet$ Re: Licensing question SSH vs Telnet Re: rms.h, starlet.h Re: rms.h, starlet.h) Re: SAMBA 3.0 (CIFS) Evaluation Release 2  Re: TMSCP: VAX serving tapes ? Re: USB hampster Re: USB hampster Re: USB hampster Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS VS LINUX Re: VMS VS LINUX Re: VMS VS LINUX Re: VMS VS LINUX Re: VMS VS LINUX Re: VMS VS LINUX Re: VMS VS LINUX Re: VMS VS LINUX RE: VMS VS LINUX RE: VMS VS LINUX Re: VMS VS LINUX RE: VMS VS LINUX Re: VMS VS LINUX Re: VMS VS LINUX Re: VMS VS LINUX Re: VMS VS LINUX Re: What is DELETEX? Re: What is DELETEX? Re: What is DELETEX? Re: What is DELETEX? Re: What is DELETEX? Re: What is DELETEX?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:20:32 -0400 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>4 Subject: Re: "VMS people can write their own ticket", Message-ID: <uFXWg.20909$2g4.746@dukeread09>   Dave Froble wrote: > GREED DOESN'T WORK!   1 So Bob Palmer, Michael Capella, Carly Fiorina are  poor today ?   :-)    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:26:45 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 4 Subject: Re: "VMS people can write their own ticket"9 Message-ID: <EvWdnZz1U-76ybHYnZ2dnUVZ_tudnZ2d@libcom.com>    Arne Vajhj wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: >> GREED DOESN'T WORK! > 3 > So Bob Palmer, Michael Capella, Carly Fiorina are  > poor today ? >  > :-)  >  > Arne  , You're right,  I didn't get specific enough.  G Greed doesn't work for the common good of all.  Or, in the case of HP,  @ greed doesn't work for the long term health of the company, the E company's employees, and for the long term reputation of the company.   F I don't give a damn about those you mentioned, other than to say that E they aren't worth a small fraction of what they've squeezed from the  A organizations they were suppose to be guiding to a better future.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:54:03 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: "VMS people can write their own ticket"G Message-ID: <I-adnTG3sttSwbHYnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    Villy Madsen wrote: E >> Ok, lets say you want to run a business, perhaps a small hamburger C >> stand.  If you want customers, you use the best ingredients and  L >> preparation.  If you're greedy, you scrape up dog turds off the sidewalk B >> and put them on moldy bread.  Guess the outcome of each option. >> >> GREED DOESN'T WORK! >> >> -- 7 >> David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450  >  > 6 > actually greed does work - and that's the problem...  F No, actually:  greed (or some nicer euphemism for it) is the basis of I capitalism, and an important ingredient in the historical success of our   society.  H But until recently it has not been the *only* important ingredient, and B our society has been (or at least used to be) the better for that.   >  > Greed in a lot of placesI > 1)  That legalized gambling system called the stock market tied in with K > 2) Corporate "C" level salaries and more importantly bonuese that are in  5 > many cases completely out of touch with reality....  > N > CEO salaries (or more importantly bonuses) seem to be more and more tied in O > to stock performance.  The next quarter's performance!  not the next year's,  1 > or shudder the next decade's stock performance.  > + > So how long does the typical CEO last ???  > M > In other words - if letting go 25,000 employees shows a short term gain in  J > profits (or for any other reason is looked up as a postive note by wall O > street) it's going to happen.  If, a year or two down the road it causes the  M > company untold angst - who cares..  The CEO is probably gone (or soon will  + > be) - and he's already got his big bonus!  > O > There was some discussion in a paper written by an audit type a while ago on  L > this subject.  He pointed out that a CEO's bonus relating to a layoff was H > actually larger than the yearly salary of the laid off employees.  He O > questioned whether or not the employees had added any value whatsover to the  O > corporation.  If they had added value - in any fashion, then the corporation   > had lost as a result.  > M > CEOs typically take a short term view - if they can look like heros in the  ( > short term - that's all that counts...  F Let me advance a very simplistic thesis that might actually have some I truth to it:  the problem with all the above is the extremely short-term  G horizon of investors, and that is a direct result of the change in the  ) capital-gains tax code in recent decades.   H IIRC, it used to be that short-term capital gains were anything under 5 H years, and taxed far more heavily than longer-term capital gains.  This ? resulted in much more investor interest in long-term corporate  C performance, which in turn emphasized long-term performance of the  D corporate leadership (and more modest salaries mixed with long-term ' stock options where they merited them).   B Totally different owner (stockholder) focus, resulting in totally I different CEO focus, resulting in totally different corporate behavior -  @ and a far more healthy (though definitely less 'go-go') economy.  B And that was because the government (in the form of its tax code) E stepped in to moderate the excesses that pure capitalism encourages:  B pure capitalism never takes a very long-term view left to its own G devices, but governments can (and should:  that's in fact a major part   of their reason for existence).    Just a thought,    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:12:39 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> # Subject: Re: A service to hobbyists , Message-ID: <452BF0A6.A7240AE9@teksavvy.com>   Tom Linden wrote: * > Don't you mean eight hundred thirty two?  H Sorry, I am just a hobbyist....What I have is 830/100. I guess I have an old worthless kit then :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 11:13:12 -0700$ From: "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org>9 Subject: Re: Cluster uptime - any improvement over this ? B Message-ID: <1160503991.967462.283230@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   R.A.Omond wrote:< > One of my customers is going to have a complete power-downA > in the near future (total replacement of the air-conditioning).  > < > Yesterday, while on-site, I managed to grab a SHOW CLUSTER@ > snapshot;  note the cluster has been up (and is fairly heavily > used) for nearly 6 years.  >  [snip]   > +-----------------+  > |     CLUSTER     |  > +-----------------+  > |      FORMED     |  > +-----------------+  > | 21-OCT-00 12:09 |  > +-----------------+   % Tybalt> say f$getsyi("cluster_ftime")  30-MAY-1999 07:28:07.05   F I'm still behind wwvnet (I think that's the name) but I'm ahead of you :-)   @ We formed the cluster with v6.something (6.2 I think), have doneF several upgrades since then, and migrated from a 100% CI cluster to anC EVA-based cluster.  We survived several computer-room power outages F when a UPS failed following a car/pole accident - the cluster is splitB between multiple buildings.  The VMS engineering teams have done aC fantastic job over the years of making this possible.  They have my F eternal gratitude and the awe of my coworkers who work on less-capable
 platforms.  =    .../Ed (proudly managing VMS systems since the blue wall).    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:36:53 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) ? Subject: Re: does Alphaserver DS10 have EV56 or later chip set? [ Message-ID: <rdeininger-1010061936330001@dialup-4.233.128.239.dial1.manchester1.level3.net>   H In article <45268f91$1@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at wrote:   >In article J <paul.sture.nospam-3EF0D9.12572006102006@mac.sture.homeip.net>, Paul Sture& <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> writes:. >>In article <45264222$1@news.langstoeger.at>,: >> peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) wrote: >>H >>> In article <1160075961.477851.197080@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, - >>> "tadamsmar" <tadamsmar@yahoo.com> writes: < >>> >I was asked this by someone looking at Oracle upgrades. >>>  >>> Yes. >>> N >>> You can check this yourself with F$GETSYI("CPUTYPE") >= 8 where values are >>>  >>>       2      21064- >>>       4      21066, 21068, 21066A, 21068A  >>>       5      21164 >>>       6      21064A  >>>       7      21164A  >>>       8      21264 >>>      11      21264A  >>>      12      21264C  >>>      13      21264B  >>>      14      21264D  >>>      15      21364 >>>      16      21364 >>>       .  >>>       .  >>>       .  >>>      31      Itanium 2 >>>      32      Itanium 3 >>> ' >>> and of course with SDA> CLUE CONFIG  >># >>Is the value for 5 above correct?  > G >I don't know. But this is what's in the doc (at least since V7.mumble) , >Probably a mail to openvmsdoc could help... > H >I found it strange too, as there are missing numbers, there is no speedF >progress in the list (means 21064A after 21164) and duplicate entriesH >(15 and 16 for the 21364) as well (or should be the 16 for the EV7z andK >is this really called 364 without the A?). But as long as it is documented D >and all use the same doc of course, the order in the list should be >irrelevant.  C This is correct and expected behavior for the CPUTYPE item code.  I G scanned all the results I saw reported in this thread by various folks, G and I don't see any incorrect results.  Confusing, yes.  Incorrect, no.   I The 21064 ... 21364 familiy of names are more or less marketing names for F various Alpha CPUs.  The EV4 ... EV7z family of names are more or less: internal development code names that are "semi-private" toJ Digital/Compaq/HP.  There is NOT a 1-to-1 correspondence between the 21xxx names and the EVy names.  J If you dig for architechtural and functional differences between CPUs, youJ will find a much longer list of versions and variants.  (Well, you'll onlyJ find this list if you have the HP-internal Alpha documentation.)  The bitsI and bytes that identify the detailed differences are scattered around the I HWRPB (HardWare Restart Parameter Block) and associated data structures.  F This stuff is really only of interest to, and needed by, OS developersI working on platform-specific code.  As such it is mostly not available in ; public documents, but is well defined in the internal docs.   G Also, the Alpha architecture was extended and revised many times during J the development life of the CPU family.  Some of the identification fieldsG defined at the beginning don't have fine enough granularity to describe < later generations, so more fields were added.  GETSYI offersF lowest-common-denominator identification fields that make sense on all$ Alpha systems, even the oldest ones.    N For the current discussion, I think two GETSYI items are probably of interest: CPUTYPE and REAL_CPUTYPE.   G CPUTYPE tells what kind of CPU is present, in terms of "what matters to J the operating system".  REAL_CPUTYPE tells what kind of CPU is present, inF terms of "what matters to the CPU designer or the firmware designer". J (REAL_CPUTYPE may well have found its way into VMS at a later version than	 CPUTYPE.)   H In the early days of Alpha, those two concepts were interchangeable, andG CPUTYPE gave the answer to either question.  Eventually there were CPUs A that were different (according to the CPU designer and/or the CPU J marketeer), but acted the same as far as the OS was concerned.  So CPUTYPEH could no longer give the answer to both questions.  Since the data fieldH that corresponds to the CPUTYPE item code was already widely used in theH OS's, the new question (that matters to the CPU designer but not the OS)B was given a new data field and a new item code, REAL_CPUTYPE.  TheC architecture was amended to state that REAL_CPUTYPE was the same as E CPUTYPE for all the older CPUs, but the two fields could be different & (within defined limits) going forward.  H An early example of this was the DEC 3000-600 system (EV4 or 21064 CPUs)G vs. the DEC 3000-700 system (EV45 or 21064A CPUs).  CPUTYPE is the same 1 for these systems, but REAL_CPUTYPE is different.   H One immediate advantage of this was that new systems could use new CPUs,H but still work with already-shipping OS versions that had never heard ofJ the new REAL_CPUTYPE powering the system.  As long as the new stuff "actedA like" the old CPUTYPE, the firmware could "fib" to the OS and and  everything worked.    I In practice the Alpha Architecture Committee defined all of this for each @ CPU long before it ever shipped, so the assigned numbers are NOT chronological.  G Anyone who really needs to know the detailed difference between CPUTYPE F and REAL_CPUTYPE should have access to the full Alpha System Reference2 Manual, which defines the architecture completely.  F If you're fiddling around in your spare time, and you think CPUTYPE isF giving you the "wrong" answer, try REAL_CPUTYPE instead and see if youA like that answer better.  And if you write software for which the D difference matters, you probably missed the point of my long, boring explanation.  C If a software product like Oracle claims to need EV56 or later, the J requirement was probably defined and stated poorly.  There are better waysJ to find out if a system or CPU supports particular features that matter to
 applications.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 02:08:18 GMT + From: "Villy Madsen" <Villy.Madsen@shaw.ca> , Subject: Re: Excessive IO on my emulated vax. Message-ID: <mmYWg.120439$1T2.95222@pd7urf2no>  > "John Santos" <john.santos@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message 8 news:MPG.1f9536e5b6455fd598972c@news.bellatlantic.net...D > In article <FbjVg.95511$5R2.76633@pd7urf3no>, Villy.Madsen@shaw.ca	 > says...  >>= >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message ) >> news:4525A308.D7C80C22@teksavvy.com... J >> > Read through the patches for VAX 7.3. There is one (I think the "SYS"A >> > one which mentions that the WBM thing is fixed by that patch  >>M >> I looked, and the delay location doesn't match the patch.  It talks about   >> a3 >> delay before the WBM thing, mine is afterwards..  >>D >> Having said that -I should probably patch the thing up to date... >>	 >> Villy.  > D > I used to get long delays while booting, installed the patch, longD > delays went away.  This was so many years ago, I don't remember ifE > it was V7.3 or what, but it was WBM-related and on VAXes.  (Booting G > still takes a long time, but it's all the stuff *after* systartup_vms G > takes control...  The WBM thing happens right at the beginning of the  > boot.) >  >  >  > --   > John   John   I installed the patches....   ) Also my long delay is after the WMB thing   J I'm still betting that it's a W/XP thing.  they have a bunch of hot fixes M that address problems handling large files....   but they don't want to send  C them to you until they are satisfied that it addresses the problem.   . I'm not ready to go through the hoops just yet   Villy  Villy    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:22:04 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.com9 Subject: Former HP CEO Fiorina Pulls No Punches in Memoir Q Message-ID: <OFD54F461D.495148B8-ON85257204.0011E3EA-85257204.00128023@metso.com>   + This is a multipart message in MIME format. " --=_alternative 0012801F85257204_=, Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"  0 Former HP CEO Fiorina Pulls No Punches in Memoir October 6, 2006  By Eric Auchard, Reuters    I SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters)--The memoir of fallen Hewlett-Packard Co. leader  J Carly Fiorina, once America's most powerful woman chief executive, paints I an unsparing picture of the internal power struggles and gender politics  C that prefigured America's most public corporate boardroom scandal.     [Add for HP notebook was here]    H "Tough Choices," due to go on sale next week, is Fiorina's long-awaited B return to the public arena after she went silent in February 2005 H following her sudden firing as chairman and CEO of Hewlett-Packard, the  computer and printer maker.   H Publication of the much-anticipated memoir coincides with the filing of F felony charges by California officials on Wednesday against former HP I Chairman Patricia Dunn, who helped drive Fiorina out of HP and took over  
 as chairman.    H Dunn and four others have been charged with felonies and are accused of D spying on journalists and HP directors in one of the year's biggest  corporate scandals.   D Running through her narrative of becoming the first outsider to run E Silicon Valley's original high-tech company are fresh details of the  G intense infighting and embarrassing press leaks that set the stage for   later corporate witch hunts.    E "Beyond the leak, there was much about the board's dynamics that was  E disturbing," Fiorina writes in a book meant to appeal to the women's  J self-help crowd. Chapter headings include: "I Can and I Will," "Saving my  Tears" and "Owning my Soul.   J The book breaks with the anodyne genre of corporate autobiography that is J typically long on management philosophy and short on personal revelation. G She pulls no punches criticizing former colleagues, board members, and   underlings.   H The fact of being a woman leader in a male-dominated technology culture I figured heavily in these spats, she writes of her tenure at HP from 1999  G until February of last year. Dunn emerged as HP's new chairman and the  K public face of its board in the weeks leading up to hiring of new CEO Mark   Hurd.    CEO VERSUS GOOD OLD BOYS    J Fiorina draws a picture of constant infighting pitting what amounted to a K Silicon Valley male establishment against women executives--with some male  K allies--whose world view came from their corporate experiences outside the   high-tech world.    H As she tells it, she faced off against the modern equivalent of a "good J ol' boys" network who bonded over technology rather than more traditional  male pursuits.    K Among them were board members Tom Perkins, a legendary venture capitalist,  C and Jay Keyworth, President Ronald Reagan's science and technology  @ advisor--both of whom were later identified as leaking HP board  discussions to the press.   H They were "big-picture guys" who "loved the minutiae of technology" but G "were impatient with the details of what was necessary to actually get  I something done," in her words. "Like many technologists, they recognized  J and liked their own kind, but they weren't particularly perceptive about, J appreciative of, or interested in people who were different," she writes.   D In an extensive discussion of the dynamics of the HP board, Fiorina K bemoans the shift in power after 2003 and the retirement of a set of board  I members with extensive experience in corporate operations--men like Phil  H Condit of Boeing and former phone executive Sam Ginn--who were also her  allies.   I "They knew that a board cannot operate a company. They knew that a small  K group of individuals can sometimes go off track. They provided ballast and  = perspective to the board's discussions," Fiorina recollects.    I She describes a proposal by opponents to split HP in two--separating its  B corporate enterprise products from its consumer businesses--as an E unnecessary intrusion by the board on her role as CEO in running the  H company. "From my perspective, their suggestions came out of left field  and were half-baked."    PRESS LEAKS DRIVE HER OUT   H Not only had revelations by board opponents of her plan to merge Compaq G Computer into HP nearly derailed that major deal in 2002, but leaks in  H early 2005 about the possible split-up of the company set in motion her  firing two weeks later.   G In response to those leaks, board member Larry Babio, vice chairman of  D Verizon Communications, proposed that the whole HP board resign and ' Fiorina choose a new set of directors.    I "No one argued" when she proposed in an emergency Saturday morning board  H meeting that an internal probe seek out the source of leaks to the Wall   Street Journal, Fiorina writes.   G In this initial probe, Perkins disclosed he had been one source of the  G leaks. Dunn, whose current criminal charges stem from a follow-on leak  E probe a year later, was on vacation in Bali and missed the call that   approved the probe.   J Fiorina writes: "I thought this could be a useful wake-up call to several ? board members who were not as smart as they thought they were.    K "(It) turns out I wasn't as smart as I needed to be," she writes bitterly.  I "Somehow, at some point during the next two weeks, certain board members   would decide to fire me."   > Copyright (c) 2006 Ziff Davis Media Inc. All Rights Reserved. " --=_alternative 0012801F85257204_=+ Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"     G <br><font size=2 face="Arial"><b>Former HP CEO Fiorina Pulls No Punches @ in Memoir</b></font><font size=2 color=#666666 face="Arial"><br>d October 6, 2006</font><font size=2 face="Arial"> </font><font size=2 color=#666666 face="Arial"><br>  By Eric Auchard, Reuters </font> <br>K <br><font size=2 face="Arial">SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters)--The memoir of fallen F Hewlett-Packard Co. leader Carly Fiorina, once America's most powerfulH woman chief executive, paints an unsparing picture of the internal powerM struggles and gender politics that prefigured America's most public corporate  boardroom scandal. <br>  <br># [Add for HP notebook was here] <br>  <br>Q &quot;Tough Choices,&quot; due to go on sale next week, is Fiorina's long-awaited K return to the public arena after she went silent in February 2005 following F her sudden firing as chairman and CEO of Hewlett-Packard, the computer and printer maker. </font> <br>H <br><font size=2 face="Arial">Publication of the much-anticipated memoirF coincides with the filing of felony charges by California officials onL Wednesday against former HP Chairman Patricia Dunn, who helped drive Fiorina, out of HP and took over as chairman. </font> <br>I <br><font size=2 face="Arial">Dunn and four others have been charged with I felonies and are accused of spying on journalists and HP directors in one 1 of the year's biggest corporate scandals. </font>  <br>G <br><font size=2 face="Arial">Running through her narrative of becoming I the first outsider to run Silicon Valley's original high-tech company are I fresh details of the intense infighting and embarrassing press leaks that 6 set the stage for later corporate witch hunts. </font> <br>I <br><font size=2 face="Arial">&quot;Beyond the leak, there was much about H the board's dynamics that was disturbing,&quot; Fiorina writes in a bookI meant to appeal to the women's self-help crowd. Chapter headings include: J &quot;I Can and I Will,&quot; &quot;Saving my Tears&quot; and &quot;Owning my Soul. </font> <br>G <br><font size=2 face="Arial">The book breaks with the anodyne genre of G corporate autobiography that is typically long on management philosophy I and short on personal revelation. She pulls no punches criticizing former 2 colleagues, board members, and underlings. </font> <br>R <br><font size=2 face="Arial">The fact of being a woman leader in a male-dominatedK technology culture figured heavily in these spats, she writes of her tenure N at HP from 1999 until February of last year. Dunn emerged as HP's new chairmanI and the public face of its board in the weeks leading up to hiring of new  CEO Mark Hurd. </font> <br>> <br><font size=2 face="Arial">CEO VERSUS GOOD OLD BOYS </font> <br>L <br><font size=2 face="Arial">Fiorina draws a picture of constant infightingJ pitting what amounted to a Silicon Valley male establishment against womenM executives--with some male allies--whose world view came from their corporate 0 experiences outside the high-tech world. </font> <br>H <br><font size=2 face="Arial">As she tells it, she faced off against theH modern equivalent of a &quot;good ol' boys&quot; network who bonded over> technology rather than more traditional male pursuits. </font> <br>H <br><font size=2 face="Arial">Among them were board members Tom Perkins,K a legendary venture capitalist, and Jay Keyworth, President Ronald Reagan's M science and technology advisor--both of whom were later identified as leaking * HP board discussions to the press. </font> <br>H <br><font size=2 face="Arial">They were &quot;big-picture guys&quot; whoJ &quot;loved the minutiae of technology&quot; but &quot;were impatient withG the details of what was necessary to actually get something done,&quot; F in her words. &quot;Like many technologists, they recognized and likedL their own kind, but they weren't particularly perceptive about, appreciativeI of, or interested in people who were different,&quot; she writes. </font>  <br>H <br><font size=2 face="Arial">In an extensive discussion of the dynamicsF of the HP board, Fiorina bemoans the shift in power after 2003 and theK retirement of a set of board members with extensive experience in corporate I operations--men like Phil Condit of Boeing and former phone executive Sam ' Ginn--who were also her allies. </font>  <br>I <br><font size=2 face="Arial">&quot;They knew that a board cannot operate G a company. They knew that a small group of individuals can sometimes go R off track. They provided ballast and perspective to the board's discussions,&quot; Fiorina recollects. </font>  <br>F <br><font size=2 face="Arial">She describes a proposal by opponents toF split HP in two--separating its corporate enterprise products from itsI consumer businesses--as an unnecessary intrusion by the board on her role K as CEO in running the company. &quot;From my perspective, their suggestions 9 came out of left field and were half-baked.&quot; </font>  <br>? <br><font size=2 face="Arial">PRESS LEAKS DRIVE HER OUT </font>  <br>I <br><font size=2 face="Arial">Not only had revelations by board opponents G of her plan to merge Compaq Computer into HP nearly derailed that major H deal in 2002, but leaks in early 2005 about the possible split-up of the9 company set in motion her firing two weeks later. </font>  <br>F <br><font size=2 face="Arial">In response to those leaks, board memberG Larry Babio, vice chairman of Verizon Communications, proposed that the H whole HP board resign and Fiorina choose a new set of directors. </font> <br>I <br><font size=2 face="Arial">&quot;No one argued&quot; when she proposed J in an emergency Saturday morning board meeting that an internal probe seekK out the source of leaks to the Wall Street Journal, Fiorina writes. </font>  <br>F <br><font size=2 face="Arial">In this initial probe, Perkins disclosedI he had been one source of the leaks. Dunn, whose current criminal charges F stem from a follow-on leak probe a year later, was on vacation in Bali4 and missed the call that approved the probe. </font> <br>H <br><font size=2 face="Arial">Fiorina writes: &quot;I thought this couldG be a useful wake-up call to several board members who were not as smart " as they thought they were. </font> <br>G <br><font size=2 face="Arial">&quot;(It) turns out I wasn't as smart as G I needed to be,&quot; she writes bitterly. &quot;Somehow, at some point O during the next two weeks, certain board members would decide to fire me.&quot;  </font>  <br>I <br><font size=2 color=#2347b3 face="Arial">Copyright (c) 2006 Ziff Davis ' Media Inc. All Rights Reserved. </font> $ --=_alternative 0012801F85257204_=--   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:59:01 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>= Subject: Re: Former HP CEO Fiorina Pulls No Punches in Memoir G Message-ID: <kJidnV9_uJWb8bHYnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:  > 4 > *Former HP CEO Fiorina Pulls No Punches in Memoir* > October 6, 2006  > By Eric Auchard, Reuters   ...   '   a book meant to appeal to the women's I > self-help crowd. Chapter headings include: "I Can and I Will," "Saving    > my Tears" and "Owning my Soul.  G Ah, yes - I suspect the writer knows what's going on there, even if he    won't come right out and say it.   ...   J > Fiorina draws a picture of constant infighting pitting what amounted to J > a Silicon Valley male establishment against women executives--with some F > male allies--whose world view came from their corporate experiences  > outside the high-tech world.  F Er, for Carly that would be sales, right?  It certainly helps explain F her incompetence in guiding a high-tech company - perhaps those 'male G allies' were typical MBAs who, like her, thought that *what* they were  2 selling mattered far less than *how* they sold it.   > J > As she tells it, she faced off against the modern equivalent of a "good @ > ol' boys" network who bonded over technology rather than more  > traditional male pursuits.  B Aw - they ganged up on poor little Carly, who wouldn't hurt a fly I (unless, of course, it got in her way:  let's not forget her attempts to  G dismiss Walter Hewlett as a dilettante musician and to muscle Deutsche  C Bank into - quite possibly illegally - supporting the merger vote).   G Or perhaps they just understood that *what* they were selling actually  
 *did* matter.    > A > Among them were board members Tom Perkins, a legendary venture  F > capitalist, and Jay Keyworth, President Ronald Reagan's science and G > technology advisor--both of whom were later identified as leaking HP  ! > board discussions to the press.  > J > They were "big-picture guys" who "loved the minutiae of technology" but I > "were impatient with the details of what was necessary to actually get  K > something done," in her words. "Like many technologists, they recognized  E > and liked their own kind, but they weren't particularly perceptive  K > about, appreciative of, or interested in people who were different," she  	 > writes.   G Or perhaps they just valued substance over mere form - and since Carly   had so little of the former...  H I wonder how many supposedly competent people will actually swallow her G drivel whole?  Given how long she managed to peddle it successfully at   HP, probably quite a few.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:23:58 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: Former HP CEO Fiorina Pulls No Punches in Memoir , Message-ID: <452C71BC.B7C12D83@teksavvy.com>  F Fiorina is rewriting history to spin it in her own way at a time where, it is really easy to discredit the HP board.  F Lets remember that in december, Fiorina flatly refused the hiring of aE COO to ease her workload and that was one of the real reasons she was H fired. It has nothing to do with the innocuous leaks that are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.  F Lets not forget that Fiorina was big on grandstandting and using greatD buzzwords she didn't understand, but shallow on actually mamaging HP
 properly.   G Remember that before Sept 7 2001, Fiorina was not very poppular and the F announcement of the purchase of the weakling Compaq simply defered any plans to get rid of her.      < Fiorina has political ambitions, ahd she is an opportunisticB bitchhhhlady and is using the current HP malaise to redress he tarnished image.  H Remember that in december before she was fired, she was called in by theD bush regime for her expertise in merging Compaq and HP "succesfully"C (from a PR point of view) and guide the regime into merging all its B federal police agencies into the new "homeland security" which wasF rumoured to be hers. But when she was fired from Compaq, all politicalS potential was immediatly killed and she now has to rebuild her political potential.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:33:49 -0400 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> = Subject: Re: Former HP CEO Fiorina Pulls No Punches in Memoir I Message-ID: <8660a3a10610102133x1112c93ep7f9a5258729f3604@mail.gmail.com>   6 On 10/10/06, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: > norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:  > > 6 > > *Former HP CEO Fiorina Pulls No Punches in Memoir* > > October 6, 2006  > > By Eric Auchard, Reuters >  > ...  > ) >   a book meant to appeal to the women's J > > self-help crowd. Chapter headings include: "I Can and I Will," "Saving" > > my Tears" and "Owning my Soul. > H > Ah, yes - I suspect the writer knows what's going on there, even if he" > won't come right out and say it. >  > ...  > K > > Fiorina draws a picture of constant infighting pitting what amounted to K > > a Silicon Valley male establishment against women executives--with some G > > male allies--whose world view came from their corporate experiences   > > outside the high-tech world. > G > Er, for Carly that would be sales, right?  It certainly helps explain G > her incompetence in guiding a high-tech company - perhaps those 'male H > allies' were typical MBAs who, like her, thought that *what* they were4 > selling mattered far less than *how* they sold it. >  > > K > > As she tells it, she faced off against the modern equivalent of a "good A > > ol' boys" network who bonded over technology rather than more  > > traditional male pursuits. > C > Aw - they ganged up on poor little Carly, who wouldn't hurt a fly J > (unless, of course, it got in her way:  let's not forget her attempts toH > dismiss Walter Hewlett as a dilettante musician and to muscle DeutscheE > Bank into - quite possibly illegally - supporting the merger vote).  > H > Or perhaps they just understood that *what* they were selling actually > *did* matter.  >  > > B > > Among them were board members Tom Perkins, a legendary ventureG > > capitalist, and Jay Keyworth, President Ronald Reagan's science and H > > technology advisor--both of whom were later identified as leaking HP# > > board discussions to the press.  > > K > > They were "big-picture guys" who "loved the minutiae of technology" but J > > "were impatient with the details of what was necessary to actually getL > > something done," in her words. "Like many technologists, they recognizedF > > and liked their own kind, but they weren't particularly perceptiveL > > about, appreciative of, or interested in people who were different," she > > writes.  > H > Or perhaps they just valued substance over mere form - and since Carly  > had so little of the former... > I > I wonder how many supposedly competent people will actually swallow her H > drivel whole?  Given how long she managed to peddle it successfully at > HP, probably quite a few.  >  > - bill >  "Tough Choices,"   Tough choices, my a**..   A "Shall we buy a fleet of Gulstreams or lay a bunch of folks off?"    I know!  Let's do both!    Now it's off to Davos for me...    Let them eat pinkslips!    WWWebb --  # not speaking for anybody except me.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:56:04 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>= Subject: Re: Heads up: La Fiorina's book coming out next week G Message-ID: <3MqdnfsAyt6JrrHYnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    John Santos wrote:   ...   0 > "Everyone has something to hide."  - Sam Spade  & "Everybody lies."  - Michael Garibaldi   (We're now into season 5...)   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:36:08 -0400 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> = Subject: Re: Heads up: La Fiorina's book coming out next week I Message-ID: <8660a3a10610101836s6a4683cdvb9939a7f7d948eb8@mail.gmail.com>   6 On 10/10/06, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: > John Santos wrote: >  > ...  > 2 > > "Everyone has something to hide."  - Sam Spade > ( > "Everybody lies."  - Michael Garibaldi >  > (We're now into season 5...) >  > - bill >     C "man is conceived in sin and born in corruption and he passeth from B the stink of the didie to the stench of the shroud. There's always
 something"  ) Robert Penn Warren-- "All The King's Men"   D --A statement so universal in its descriptiveness as to be timeless.0 I committed it to memory when I read the book.--  1 (and no, I haven't seen the remake.   Nor will I)    WWWebb --   Ajilon Consulting  Site resident at Quest Diagnostics = first.x.last@f$edit(contents of previous line,"COMPRESS").com    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 14:13:55 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com K Subject: How former HP support staff needs to form a new US support center! C Message-ID: <1160514835.406877.288780@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>   E 1. Get together people being let go from ALL key areas of vms such as  decnet, ucx, etc.   E 2. Pool your talents and resources to form a new vms support team for 
 the US and     maybe Canada  : 3. Offer same support as DEC did i.e. gold, silver, bronze  > 4. offer piecemeal support i.e. vms base, decnet, DQS ... etc.  > 5. get out and market and watch the support contracts roll in!   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 14:19:32 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com O Subject: Re: How former HP support staff needs to form a new US support center! B Message-ID: <1160515172.022559.256880@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>   b...@instantwhip.com wrote: G > 1. Get together people being let go from ALL key areas of vms such as  > decnet, ucx, etc.  > G > 2. Pool your talents and resources to form a new vms support team for  > the US and >     maybe Canada > < > 3. Offer same support as DEC did i.e. gold, silver, bronze > @ > 4. offer piecemeal support i.e. vms base, decnet, DQS ... etc. > @ > 5. get out and market and watch the support contracts roll in!  0 then you buy a gold service contract with HP ...  B they will have one support customer left which will be you and you% will have all their former customers!    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 10:48:49 -0700( From: "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com>! Subject: Re: hp advocacy web site B Message-ID: <1160502529.808344.196290@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   Dave Gudewicz wrote:- > "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> wrote in message ? > news:1158929248.560661.247970@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... A > > anyone know what happened to http://www.hpuseradvocacy.org/ ?  > >  > 7 > Its been MIA for at least 2 weeks now.  Not sure why.  > 	 > Dave...   E Still down.  Perhaps they didn't want to hear from their customers or F users anymore, especially with all the downgrades there are to comment on.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 13:19:19 -0700) From: "DaveG" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> ! Subject: Re: hp advocacy web site B Message-ID: <1160511559.311513.130390@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   Rich Jordan wrote: > Dave Gudewicz wrote:/ > > "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> wrote in message A > > news:1158929248.560661.247970@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... C > > > anyone know what happened to http://www.hpuseradvocacy.org/ ?  > > >  > > 9 > > Its been MIA for at least 2 weeks now.  Not sure why.  > >  > > Dave...  > G > Still down.  Perhaps they didn't want to hear from their customers or H > users anymore, especially with all the downgrades there are to comment > on.   G I *think* I found out why the site is down.  It was run by Encompass in D the U.S. for and by user groups, one of them being Interex.  InterexC folded in 2005 and *I think* so did the thought of keeping the site G going.  Not sure about all the details.  Was not involved with the site  other than being a user.  A I for one would like to see this site brought back.  Anyone else?   / If yes, then might I suggest sending a note to:  information@encompassus.org    Dave...    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 18:33:05 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com . Subject: If red hat can do it, so can OpenVMS!B Message-ID: <1160530385.701239.70020@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  5 we need all former employees to get together and find 0 some people in the investment community who will6 fund vms and help initiate a public offering to buy it+ from HP ... is anyone doing this right now?    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:35:29 GMT 0 From: John Santos <john.santos@post.harvard.edu>3 Subject: Re: Initializing TK85 tapes on VAX VMS 7.2 > Message-ID: <MPG.1f95ce1a95f8693598972e@news.bellatlantic.net>  - In article <45246AE7.8CF3B051@teksavvy.com>,  $ jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com says... > I've hit a roadblock.  > J > I have a TF85 tape drive, DSSI based connected to a VAX. Now DSSI is old > stuff, older than VMS 7.2. > G > HELP INIT/DENSITY on VAX-VMS 7.2 mentions that starting with 7.2, one 4 > has access to density keywords which include TK85. > H > On ALPHA 8.2, the same help says that those densities only appeared on > ALPHA starting at 7.2. >  > H > The CLD for INITIALIZE on VAX-7.2 only includes the keywords documeted  > to be available prior to 7.2.  > G > I recently read some TK70s to restore backups. Now, I can't use TK85s D > anymore. When i try to initialise them, it ends with parity error. > I > I can then mount it , it shows the right label, but the density is that J > of much older tapes. (which would be indicative of parity problems sinceN > those tapes are not supposed to be able to write to older generation tapes). > C > The documentation states that initialising a tape with no desnity I > specification retains the existing density setting. Which means that if   > it is wrong, it remains wrong. > E > Yet, with VMS 7.2 , I am unable to specify the TK85 keyword for the 6 > density to ensure the tapes are properly initilised.  F I'm not clear if it is your drive or your cartridges that are "stuck".E If it is the drive, then either attempting to use a cartridge already C initialized to TK85 density or a completely blank (bulk-erased) one E should reset it.  If worst comes to worst, rebooting or power-cycling  the drive should fix it.  D With various DLT's stuck at the wrong density, sometimes it helps toB bulk-erase them.  The next initialize takes much, much longer (youD might thinks it's broken), but eventually it initializes the tape at  the right density for the drive.  E I've used this to fix TK52s (TK70 cartridges) that had been used on a C TK50 (sticking them at TK50 density and making them unwritable on a D TK70), and to fix DLT-III's that had been written on a TK88, that weE wanted to use on a TK87.  (The TK88 wrote it at TK88 density and then ' the TK87 couldn't do anything with it.)   C The same trick might work to get your TK85's (DLT-III's?) back into 
 TK85-mode.     >  > F > How come there was no support for old DSSI tape drives in VAX 7.2 ? J > Those DSSI devices were designed for vaxes to begin with, weren't they ? >  > @ > I wanted to backup my system disk before upgrading it to 7.3.  > J > I realise that this is all old unsupported suff now. But I am curious onI > the reasons that VAX-VMS 7.2 didn't support those tapes even though the F > help files says that they did ? Didn't those tapes appear in the mid( > 1990s when DSSI was at its last days ? >    --   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:30:39 -0400 < From: "Island Computers, D B Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com>) Subject: Licensing question SSH vs Telnet 0 Message-ID: <12int6tnk31fv6b@news.supernews.com>  H Does anyone know about the requirements for Concurrent User licenses for SSH?  I Our customer needs one Concurrent User License per Telnet session whereas 6 there was no obvious requirement when running multiple
 SSH sessions.  Can anyone elaborate on this???    Thanks     --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X251  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@islandco.com Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 15:46:31 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) - Subject: Re: Licensing question SSH vs Telnet 3 Message-ID: <pAwOYy5sMRHo@eisner.encompasserve.org>   o In article <12int6tnk31fv6b@news.supernews.com>, "Island Computers, D B Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com> writes: J > Does anyone know about the requirements for Concurrent User licenses for > SSH? > K > Our customer needs one Concurrent User License per Telnet session whereas 8 > there was no obvious requirement when running multiple > SSH sessions. ! > Can anyone elaborate on this???   E Making a guess at how some SSH implementations work, I would classify F the behavior you describe as a loophole in Concurrent User License LMF processing by VMS.  8 Depending on that loophole to persist might not be wise.  F But LMF is license management, not license enforcement.  In my opinionF honoring the contract with HP requires having Concurrent User Licenses for each SSH user.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:34:05 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: rms.h, starlet.h , Message-ID: <452BF5AB.8B3B6249@teksavvy.com>   Rohan wrote:D > trying to compile the code I am getting errors on rms.h, starlet.h5 > files. These look like VMS dependant header files.      F rms.h actually embeds a number of files ( rab, nam, fab etc). This all has to do with file IO.   6 starlet is for the system services (SYS$mumble) calls.  H If you have converted any SYS$mumble calls to some Unix equivalent, then0 you may no longer need to include those headers.  D (RMS calls are SYS$OPEN, SYS$CLOSE , SYS$CONNECT, SYS$READ, SYS$GET,G SYS$WRITE, SYS$PUT, SYS$DISCONNECT, SYS$PARSE and probably a few more). L Look for "fab" within your program to see if you make use of RMS structures.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 18:16:48 -0700 From: dooleys@snowy.net.au Subject: Re: rms.h, starlet.h B Message-ID: <1160529408.448417.192450@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>   Rohan wrote:> > Thank you! that helps... we might have to change the code... > ' Others have had the same issues before, @ sector7 can sell you a package that does rms calls on unix/linux Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:41:26 -0400 3 From: "Peter Weaver" <info-vax@weaverconsulting.ca> 2 Subject: Re: SAMBA 3.0 (CIFS) Evaluation Release 26 Message-ID: <004a01c6ec9b$b20759b0$2802a8c0@CHARONVAX>   >...B > I just noticed that a new version of SAMBA 3.0 (CIFS) Evaluation+ > Release 2 is available for download from:  > 7 > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/network/CIFS_for_Samba.html  > ! > p.s. I haven't installed it yet  >...  6 When you do install it you have to make sure you copy M samba_root:[backup]smb.conf to samba_root:[lib] after you do the install and  H then restart Samba. Other than that I have not yet seen any problems on  Alpha or IA64.   Peter Weaver www.weaverconsulting.ca 8 CHARON-VAX  CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:06:49 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Re: TMSCP: VAX serving tapes ? , Message-ID: <452BFD54.CCC43B7B@teksavvy.com>   Jilly wrote:I > Glad it worked for you.  ISTR the docs say that it needs to be the same M > number as the alloclass of the units you wish this system to serve (the way N > disk serving works), so it could stop behaving in the current manner at some > later point.  G Actually, I think it was at version 7.2 and definitely at 8.3 where the E help says that the TMSCP_SERVE_ALl and MSCP_SERVE_ALL paremeters were E switched to bitmaps instead of 1 and 0, and varous bits indicate what F type of device to serve (local only, or any devide directly accessible by that node etc).   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:35:13 GMT , From: Forrest Kenney <Forrest.Kenney@hp.com> Subject: Re: USB hampster & Message-ID: <452BE6FF.776F330E@hp.com>  D     I have tried a couple of different San Disk readers and some no D name ones.  They have all worked to date.  There are some multi-cardC ones that do not work with V8.3.  They require LUN support which is C not really supported.  I have some back door code that will switch  C the LUN but it not documented.  Hopefully for the hardware release  C after V8.3 we will have LUN's working correctly.  But until we get  B USB 2.0 working fast and USB flash readers are not terms one will  use in the same sentence.        Forrest   ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > [ > In article <452b9c81$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> writes:  > >  > >  > > = > >"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message ) > >news:452AF45F.E5AFE26C@teksavvy.com...  > >> FredK wrote: L > >> > Server.  When a USB device is attached, the HUB driver with potential > >help N > >> > from the HID (Human Interface Device) driver sends a message to the UCMJ > >> > server describing the new device.  The UCM server then looks up the	 > >device N > >> > in the permanent USB device database (devices that have previously beenJ > >> > seen, configured and given a persistant name), and loads/connects a
 > >driver.N > >> > If the device isn't in the permanent database it looks it up, names it, > >andL > >> > loads and connects the driver (in V8.3 it will automatically do this, > >and0 > >> > automatically make the device permanent). > >>  > >> Thanks for the description. > >>K > >> Question: when you plug in a camera for instance, instead of loading a A > >> driver, could the UCM server actually start an application ?  > >> > > H > >Could it?  Yes.  Will it?  No, at least not in the short term.  It isK > >something that Forrest and I have talked about.  But to do it right, and L > >account for any and all security issues (plus a whole lot of other "real"K > >work) has kept it on the back-burner for now.  However, you still need a E > >driver - even if it is the generic driver - to talk to the device.  > N > Canon cameras do not support serving the memory card as a disk.  I have, forN > my photography needs, purchased a firewire Compact Flash card reader which IM > use with my PowerBook and OS X.  It's damn fast -- faster than reading from N > the camera's USB or via a Compact Flash card adapter.  If there is a CompactO > Flash USB reader you've found that works with VMS, I'd like to hear about it. & > I'll handle the "FAT" reading later. >  > --M > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  > 6 >   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:52:47 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: USB hampster , Message-ID: <452BFA0C.5F00C8E1@teksavvy.com>   Forrest Kenney wrote:   @ >As Fred said we have talked about just starting an application ! >when a USB device is plugged in.   H The reson I asked was that it has interesting security implications in aE VMS environment as opposed to a personal desktop.  when you plug in a = device, what username do you use when creating the process ?      G > 1) As I have said I do not know what the magic is to get the built in E >    USB in the DS10 and DS10L working.  Sorry that is the way it is.   ) Well, that is not good enough :-( :-( :-(   F We'll have to mount a jihad to get HP to find the magic incantation toD release that USB port from the hidden dungeon of the DS10L firmware.       >  If @ >    you want USB on these systems purchase an add in USB card.   D What is needed is an external PCI box that plugs into the single PCI1 slot in the DS10L. Then we could plugs things in.   E But since the DS10 already has a USB plug/hardware, it is just a real F shame that it has been purposefully disabled. TO me, it soulds like itJ was the same employee who decided to put expoy glue in some bus connector.    = >         Device/Interface Class, SubClass, and Protocol data  >         Serial number. > I >    This data is passed to the USB Configuration Manager code UCM Server * >    which figures out what the device is.    3 Can the UCM Server discriminate on Serial number ?    B Say you are some news bureau. You code in each employee's camera'sH serial number. Employee walks in, plugs the camera into a server, serverH automatically recognises the camera belongs to username X and copies the% pictures into employee X's directory.     G >    it is a keyboard, Mouse, Joystick etc.  It then uses UCM Server to  >    load the correct driver.   D I take it you guys are hard at work to provide joystick interface onB Alpha and update Flight to make use of the joystick ?  :-) :-) :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:32:05 GMT , From: Forrest Kenney <Forrest.Kenney@hp.com> Subject: Re: USB hampster & Message-ID: <452C1070.7F10872D@hp.com>  < 	Joystick support is already in V8.3.  Look for SYS$AGDRIVERG named in honor of the person who pushed for it.  The driver has existed E for years I did it as a weekend hack.  Fred took it and beefed it up  E and we checked it into V8.3.  Along with a demo piece of code, and a  > support layer you can like against that make using it simpler.  ; 	We use serial numbers as a way uniquely ID a device to it  B VMS name and Unit number.  If it has a serial number it is always A going to be the same device.  Assuming the Vendor Id and Product  8 Id match as well.  No serial number we use bus topology.  ; 	We already provide a way to on a device class basis block  @ adding a device.  You can also set up a system so that it alwaysB blocks the automatic addition of devices.  We are not that STUPID.B Prior to V8.3 the policy was you had to do a multi-step operation C and needed privileges to add a device.  In V8.3 Fred added the code D for auto addition and the ability to exclude by device class.  So ifF you don't want to allow auto addition of USB Mass Storage devices you  can.       Forrest    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Forrest Kenney wrote:  > A > >As Fred said we have talked about just starting an application # > >when a USB device is plugged in.  > J > The reson I asked was that it has interesting security implications in aG > VMS environment as opposed to a personal desktop.  when you plug in a > > device, what username do you use when creating the process ? > I > > 1) As I have said I do not know what the magic is to get the built in G > >    USB in the DS10 and DS10L working.  Sorry that is the way it is.  > + > Well, that is not good enough :-( :-( :-(  > H > We'll have to mount a jihad to get HP to find the magic incantation toF > release that USB port from the hidden dungeon of the DS10L firmware. >  > >  If A > >    you want USB on these systems purchase an add in USB card.  > F > What is needed is an external PCI box that plugs into the single PCI3 > slot in the DS10L. Then we could plugs things in.  > G > But since the DS10 already has a USB plug/hardware, it is just a real H > shame that it has been purposefully disabled. TO me, it soulds like itL > was the same employee who decided to put expoy glue in some bus connector. > ? > >         Device/Interface Class, SubClass, and Protocol data  > >         Serial number. > > K > >    This data is passed to the USB Configuration Manager code UCM Server , > >    which figures out what the device is. > 4 > Can the UCM Server discriminate on Serial number ? > D > Say you are some news bureau. You code in each employee's camera'sJ > serial number. Employee walks in, plugs the camera into a server, serverJ > automatically recognises the camera belongs to username X and copies the' > pictures into employee X's directory.  > I > >    it is a keyboard, Mouse, Joystick etc.  It then uses UCM Server to  > >    load the correct driver.  > F > I take it you guys are hard at work to provide joystick interface onD > Alpha and update Flight to make use of the joystick ?  :-) :-) :-)   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:30:01 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India $ Message-ID: <eggor8$6at$1@online.de>  8 In article <egglcj$suu$1@naig.caltech.edu>, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes:    % > Island Computers, D B Turner wrote: M > > I think the new Indian VMS support center is the same one used by Sunbeam " > > for toasters and waffle irons. > >  > C > Is the joke your statement or is the state of VMS support a joke?   G I don't know, but the fact that the question can be asked seriously is   more than answer enough.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:00:12 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India * Message-ID: <452bb577@usenet01.boi.hp.com>    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:p > In article <1160489642.547617.10750@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, "Sue" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> writes:J >> Here is a HP Services Web site for customers to log their issues it mayG >> be worth logging your complaints their and try and change the trend.  >> >> http://voctool.hp.com/  > I > Looks promising, but unfortunately times out (what promise is this?)...   L    voctool is a mechanism internal to HP.  It's not accessable to customers.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:17:28 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India , Message-ID: <452BF1C7.719670F8@teksavvy.com>  ! "William.W.Webb@gmail.com" wrote: B > We went one step beyond that at one site- not only was the FIELDF > account rigged to self-destruct, the DECserver port that the dial-in* > modem hung off of was normally unusable.    G I went a step beyond that:  Got DEC Support to download the patch to my H home all mighty microvax II. Then at night, I would cut a TK50 and bringG it to the bank the next day. Bank had TK70 drive. So it could read from D the TK50 but not write to it, so I was allowed to bring my TK50 backA home after that since there was no risk of my stealing bank data.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:26:53 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India , Message-ID: <452BF3FB.DC97F399@teksavvy.com>   Rich Jordan wrote:G > Thanks for that.  I already wrote the board contact email, as well as H > Hurd's, concerning our two service calls under the new situation (both> > disastrously slow and inept).  This will be worth doing too.    @ While this and Sue's web pointer are very important, you need toE remember that when you outsource to new employees, you have to expect H problems initially, with a promise that within X time, the new guys will4 have ramped up and service problems will be reduced.  B So complaints at this point in time would be interpreted by uppper# management as just "moving pains".    G What will REALLY make an impact is when customers write after a magical A number of days/weeks with statements such as "we were tolerant of H problems while you moved your support to new people, but that excuse has, now expired and the problems still persist".  D Also, since these guys would be dialing in from India, make sure youF enable virtual terminals on the modem line. Unless they restrict modemF speed to 9600 or lower, there are very good chances that the line willB be unstable and drop (or modem spending inordinate amounts of timeF retraining speed due to error rate). No matter how much fibre there is3 between India and USA, there is still a time delay.   G One solution would be for HP to provide dial-out banks in north america  for those indian drones to use.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:28:16 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India , Message-ID: <452BF44E.CCD6FFE7@teksavvy.com>   > > > http://voctool.hp.com/ > >  > > P > > does not respond; and searching for voctool on the hp site turns up nothing.    G HP has just put a service call to the folks in India to try to fix that  server :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 21:39:29 -02006 From: eplan@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India , Message-ID: <452c1311$1@news.langstoeger.at>  Y In article <452bb577@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes: ! >Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: q >> In article <1160489642.547617.10750@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, "Sue" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> writes: K >>> Here is a HP Services Web site for customers to log their issues it may H >>> be worth logging your complaints their and try and change the trend. >>>  >>> http://voctool.hp.com/ >>  J >> Looks promising, but unfortunately times out (what promise is this?)... > M >   voctool is a mechanism internal to HP.  It's not accessable to customers.   M I suspected this (cause of the old DEC 16.x.y.z IP address), but wasn't sure.  Thanks.    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:29:39 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India , Message-ID: <452C02AD.7B2E68D9@teksavvy.com>   Something to think about here:  G We are starting to see ads here for proper VMS support. And even if not F presented as an actual advertising, the end result is the same. We allC know about Bruden "On Shore Support". And we now know about Parsec.   : How long before Process chimes in and offers support too ?  @ Obviously, HP support is usually on contract, so HP won't see anG immediate drop in revenus. Only when a customer's contract comes up for 6 renewall does it stand a chance to lose that customer.  H Yep. These "new guys" deserve some business, especially if they prove toG be better than HP. For the customer, what counts is getting the support F they need to minimise any downtime and fix problems quickly. And if HPF doesn't do this anymore, and you have these enterprising guys who showG up and provide a convincing sales pitch of their superior support, then  they deserve some business.   	 HOWEVER:    > VMS is still alive today because of the support revenus it hasE generated. It isn't alive due to the new licenses it is sold.  Reduce N the support revenus, and HP may not see a point in continuing VMS development.  ? Strategically, VMS customers should stick with HP and pester HP G constantly until the support is brought back up to par. We must not let F HP use the "drop in support revenus" as an excuse to kill off VMS. AndD HP must learn that VMS customers can be extremely loyal and won't goC away that easily. But loyalty comes at a price: a quality operating F systems and quality support. Fire those who provided that quality, and customers aren't happy.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:32:20 -0500 ! From: VMSguy <vmsguy@comcast.net> ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India * Message-ID: <452C0354.8080201@comcast.net>  E What I have to say about "HP Authorized" is pretty much no different  2 than what I think about the VMS Support Off Shore.  I Not to say that PARSEC does or does not deliver - but I am simply fed up  F with the HP VAR system.  Just tack on another 25% to the cost because  you are a VAR.  B I have gotten better and more qualified service from the likes of G NORTHLAND, GREAT LAKES, ISLAND, etc. than I have from HPFS, HP, and HP   VAR's.  B These people have busted their butt to deliver a quality product, I reasonable price, and produce quotes in a respectable amount of time.  I  H can call them directly and chat with them about the product, etc., more 5 so than I have been able to do with certain HP VAR's.   A When I hear "The only HP Authorized..." it makes me want to puke.          Laura wrote:   >To all VMS/TRU64 UNIX users: F >There is an alternative to HP ---- PARSEC Group, located in Denver CO >--  > H >PARSEC Group is the only HP Authorized Independent Training Partner, HPE >Solutions Alliance Partner & Microsoft Certified Technical Education G >Center to earn Microsoft Gold Certified Partner for Enterprise Systems G >in the World!  We offer expertise in OpenVMS, Microsoft BackOffice and E >Tru64 UNIX, to name a few.  Our Trainers Consult and Our Consultants F >Train.  We also offer 24x7 support contracts for our clients, as wellF >as, business reviews/audits in IT processes, Disaster Recovery, VirusF >Detection/Tracking, System Monitoring, Server & Desktop Environments,8 >e-Mail implementation, Back-up/Recovery procedures etc. > F >PARSEC can implement, migrate and integrate multiple platforms.  OverF >85% of our training classes are customized to the customers needs andB >100% of our consulting/service is customized applications for ourD >clients and we guarantee 100% satisfaction to all of our customers. > F >We have over 200 current support customers; assisted over 700 clients= >with selection of enterprise network; trained over 15,000 IT ? >Professionals and have held over 700 on-site training classes.  >  >Check us out at www.parsec.com  >  >VMSguy wrote: >    > J >>I just had my first experience with VMS Support in India - I do not like
 >>it one bit.  >>G >>It reminds me of nothing more than my cable service - a total lack of : >>intellectual thought process involved with these people. >>E >>Simply a bunch of idiots with a language barrier.  Ask for a simple E >>dial-in for a crash analysis and I get the run around of "is this a E >>hardware or software issue"  - Hell I do not know, that is why I am H >>making the call - you dial-in and you tell me what the problems - I am9 >>paying you support.  They even lost my contract number.  >>J >>Mind you, I would love to add more colorful metaphors to this thread!  I" >>am not happy about this service. >>I >>I called 3 hours ago and I am still waiting for an e-mail response with C >>instructions on what I need to do with the crash dump file (FTP I 
 >>suppose)...  >>F >>No offense to India - I work with some people from India that are on? >>their toes - they live here in the states - maybe that is the - >>difference.  They share common interests...  >>H >>The group that now supports VMS?  Well if this is what HP thinks of us> >>as a customer then we are screwed as VMS users and managers. >>; >>Thanks HP for your lack of foresight in customer support.  >>     >> >  >  >    >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:38:24 -0500 ! From: VMSguy <vmsguy@comcast.net> ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India * Message-ID: <452C04C0.3060606@comcast.net>  ? "Moving Pains" - wasn't that a comedy series on TV awhile back?   F My response - then cut my support contract to 10% of what it is now - ) that is what I feel the service is worth.   H Now mind you the end result was the same, my problem was identified and 	 resolved.   G I expect better service up front - I do not need to talk shop with the  B "operator" but I do expect that "operator" to know the difference I between a hardware or software problem - and if it is un-determinable at  I the initial onset, then assume it is software and work it from there.  I  B do not want to have to explain how the process should work to the  "operator".    JF Mezei wrote:    >Rich Jordan wrote:  >    > G >>Thanks for that.  I already wrote the board contact email, as well as H >>Hurd's, concerning our two service calls under the new situation (both> >>disastrously slow and inept).  This will be worth doing too. >>     >> >  > A >While this and Sue's web pointer are very important, you need to F >remember that when you outsource to new employees, you have to expectI >problems initially, with a promise that within X time, the new guys will 5 >have ramped up and service problems will be reduced.  > C >So complaints at this point in time would be interpreted by uppper $ >management as just "moving pains".  > H >What will REALLY make an impact is when customers write after a magicalB >number of days/weeks with statements such as "we were tolerant ofI >problems while you moved your support to new people, but that excuse has - >now expired and the problems still persist".  > E >Also, since these guys would be dialing in from India, make sure you G >enable virtual terminals on the modem line. Unless they restrict modem G >speed to 9600 or lower, there are very good chances that the line will C >be unstable and drop (or modem spending inordinate amounts of time G >retraining speed due to error rate). No matter how much fibre there is 4 >between India and USA, there is still a time delay. > H >One solution would be for HP to provide dial-out banks in north america  >for those indian drones to use. >  >    >    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 14:09:52 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India C Message-ID: <1160514592.547070.153550@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Laura wrote: > To all VMS/TRU64 UNIX users:G > There is an alternative to HP ---- PARSEC Group, located in Denver CO     ( do you offer support by item ... such as   1. vms base support  2. decnet phase IV 3. DQS  ; and on the same fee level as HP for silver or bronze level?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:33:37 -0400  From: "Ray" <no@spam.me>! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India * Message-ID: <_cVWg.75$di5.51@newsfe06.lga>  @ > VMS is still alive today because of the support revenus it hasG > generated. It isn't alive due to the new licenses it is sold.  Reduce ? > the support revenus, and HP may not see a point in continuing  > VMS development.  ? You can't seem to understand that HP has *ALREADY* discontinued > VMS development. Nemo was the last hurrah. The only meaningfulC development you will see in the future is new hardware support. The F latest round of cuts has caused VMS engineering to lose critical mass.F Do you truly think it was only a coincidence that this latest round of? cuts in engineering came at the completion and release of Nemo?   > VMS revenues *ARE* *NOT* now and *WILL* *NOT* be used for VMS.  A > Strategically, VMS customers should stick with HP and pester HP I > constantly until the support is brought back up to par. We must not let D > HP use the "drop in support revenus" as an excuse to kill off VMS.  C Support *WILL* *NOT* be brought back up to par. HP doesn't need any E excuses to kill VMS. They've made that decision *LONG* *AGO*, and are K implementing their plan. These latest activities are just some more visible  milestones.   F > HP must learn that VMS customers can be extremely loyal and won't goE > away that easily. But loyalty comes at a price: a quality operating H > systems and quality support. Fire those who provided that quality, and > customers aren't happy.   > HP just wants you to *GO* *AWAY*. The MPE-iX customer base wasH "extremely loyal" and didn't "go away that easily" either, but MPE-iX isC nearly gone. HP is not interested in your happiness. HP is somewhat H interested in your money and will happily take it as long as you want toA pay, so they can use it to further their own agenda, which *DOES*  *NOT* include VMS.  ? Do the math, for pity's sake! HP is demonstrably *LOWERING* its B investment in VMS, and *FIRING* its quality VMS people in favor ofI poorly trained off-shore script kiddies. If you want quality VMS support, @ put your money with someone who will use that money to invest in quality VMS support people.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:23:32 -0400 F From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@islandco.com>! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India : Message-ID: <kQWWg.22498$vi3.14719@bignews3.bellsouth.net>  J I don't know if it  is going to be cost-effective for us to hire some VMS F engineering people, but judging by the amount of very experienced VMS H consultants out there, I think our consultant web page may come in very  useful.   H Out of curiosity, what would you all say was the percentage of hardware % versus software support requirements?   J Reason I am asking is that we have a couple of next-day delivery hardware M support contracts, which work by our customer keeping spares that we sold to  I them then we replenish within 1 year/2 years etc whatever their contract   period may be.  L My guess is that 90% of all support issues come about from bad hardware.... D something very very easy to fix with the amount of current and last K generation hardware floating about and in stock at our warehouse and other  @ reputable dealers in the worldwide "used" equipment marketplace.  1 It also brings me to ask about software upgrades.   I I have talked to many many Federal Government installations that pay for  L maintenance but are still running VMS 6.2 ~ and never used software support.  M We all know HP knows that and I believe they are taking a gamble on the Feds  K not even noticing that they are paying excessively for a service they will   never receive.+ That is HP's biggest cash cow right there !   L I can tell you this from experience - many Navy installations, Army and Air L Force call us about issues with VMS even though we don't yet offer SOFTWARE H SUPPORT. We normally find the answer by asking consultants for a 1 hour F billing etc. They should be using VMS support but have no idea who to  contact.  2 Damn it . I wish we had those kind of customers!!!     :0|    DT  	 Comments?     / "VMSguy" <vmsguy@comcast.net> wrote in message  $ news:452C04C0.3060606@comcast.net...A > "Moving Pains" - wasn't that a comedy series on TV awhile back?  > M > My response - then cut my support contract to 10% of what it is now - that  & > is what I feel the service is worth. > J > Now mind you the end result was the same, my problem was identified and  > resolved.  > I > I expect better service up front - I do not need to talk shop with the  L > "operator" but I do expect that "operator" to know the difference between G > a hardware or software problem - and if it is un-determinable at the  J > initial onset, then assume it is software and work it from there.  I do L > not want to have to explain how the process should work to the "operator". >  > JF Mezei wrote:  >  >>Rich Jordan wrote: >>H >>>Thanks for that.  I already wrote the board contact email, as well asI >>>Hurd's, concerning our two service calls under the new situation (both ? >>>disastrously slow and inept).  This will be worth doing too.  >>>  >> >>B >>While this and Sue's web pointer are very important, you need toG >>remember that when you outsource to new employees, you have to expect J >>problems initially, with a promise that within X time, the new guys will6 >>have ramped up and service problems will be reduced. >>D >>So complaints at this point in time would be interpreted by uppper$ >>management as just "moving pains".I >>What will REALLY make an impact is when customers write after a magical C >>number of days/weeks with statements such as "we were tolerant of J >>problems while you moved your support to new people, but that excuse has. >>now expired and the problems still persist". >>F >>Also, since these guys would be dialing in from India, make sure youH >>enable virtual terminals on the modem line. Unless they restrict modemH >>speed to 9600 or lower, there are very good chances that the line willD >>be unstable and drop (or modem spending inordinate amounts of timeH >>retraining speed due to error rate). No matter how much fibre there is5 >>between India and USA, there is still a time delay.  >>I >>One solution would be for HP to provide dial-out banks in north america ! >>for those indian drones to use.  >> >>     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:26:11 -0400 F From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@islandco.com>! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India : Message-ID: <RSWWg.22500$vi3.14226@bignews3.bellsouth.net>  K Oh deary deary goodness gracious me... (remember It ain't 'arf  'ot Mum) -   no comment! M Actually, this whole issue could be coming about from the VAX vacuum cleaner   support guys getting* confused with the wrong maintenance manual   DT        5 "David Mathog" <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message  % news:egglcj$suu$1@naig.caltech.edu... % > Island Computers, D B Turner wrote: L >> I think the new Indian VMS support center is the same one used by Sunbeam! >> for toasters and waffle irons.  >> > C > Is the joke your statement or is the state of VMS support a joke?  > 
 > Regards, >  > David Mathog     ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 18:42:04 -0700/ From: "ryan.dan@gmail.com" <ryan.dan@gmail.com> ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India B Message-ID: <1160530924.030087.92950@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  G We had an incident about two months ago, and had to use the new support A and needless to say they did not know nearly one/tenth of the guy ? working next to me.  I'm fairly new to VMS (a little of year of F experience) and I can't say I'm really surprised about this issue.  At@ one of the HP dog and pony shows, I talked to one fo the ProductE Managers, and I let her know I thought HP were fools by not investing $ more into its best operating system.  @ But then again, this HP, the only company I know making money onD promises.   I think their business strategy is to not learn from theE Dell's of the world - who pulled back their offshore support, because C people complained.  Obvisiously, we are now in the minority - but I / wish their was a way to make them pay....<sign>      Dan Ryan	 TriHealth  Cincinnati, OH   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:00:18 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India : Message-ID: <9POdnQhsUPOlzbHYnZ2dnUVZ_o-dnZ2d@comcast.com>  - David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:   L > I don't know if it  is going to be cost-effective for us to hire some VMS H > engineering people, but judging by the amount of very experienced VMS J > consultants out there, I think our consultant web page may come in very 	 > useful.  > J > Out of curiosity, what would you all say was the percentage of hardware ' > versus software support requirements?  > L > Reason I am asking is that we have a couple of next-day delivery hardware O > support contracts, which work by our customer keeping spares that we sold to  K > them then we replenish within 1 year/2 years etc whatever their contract   > period may be. > N > My guess is that 90% of all support issues come about from bad hardware.... F > something very very easy to fix with the amount of current and last M > generation hardware floating about and in stock at our warehouse and other  B > reputable dealers in the worldwide "used" equipment marketplace. > 3 > It also brings me to ask about software upgrades.  > K > I have talked to many many Federal Government installations that pay for  N > maintenance but are still running VMS 6.2 ~ and never used software support. > O > We all know HP knows that and I believe they are taking a gamble on the Feds  M > not even noticing that they are paying excessively for a service they will   > never receive.- > That is HP's biggest cash cow right there !  > N > I can tell you this from experience - many Navy installations, Army and Air N > Force call us about issues with VMS even though we don't yet offer SOFTWARE J > SUPPORT. We normally find the answer by asking consultants for a 1 hour H > billing etc. They should be using VMS support but have no idea who to 
 > contact. > 4 > Damn it . I wish we had those kind of customers!!! >  >  > :0|  >  > DT >  > Comments?  >  > 1 > "VMSguy" <vmsguy@comcast.net> wrote in message  & > news:452C04C0.3060606@comcast.net... > A >>"Moving Pains" - wasn't that a comedy series on TV awhile back?  >>M >>My response - then cut my support contract to 10% of what it is now - that  & >>is what I feel the service is worth. >>J >>Now mind you the end result was the same, my problem was identified and  >>resolved.  >>I >>I expect better service up front - I do not need to talk shop with the  L >>"operator" but I do expect that "operator" to know the difference between G >>a hardware or software problem - and if it is un-determinable at the  J >>initial onset, then assume it is software and work it from there.  I do L >>not want to have to explain how the process should work to the "operator". >> >>JF Mezei wrote:  >> >> >>>Rich Jordan wrote:  >>>  >>> I >>>>Thanks for that.  I already wrote the board contact email, as well as J >>>>Hurd's, concerning our two service calls under the new situation (both@ >>>>disastrously slow and inept).  This will be worth doing too. >>>> >>>  >>> C >>>While this and Sue's web pointer are very important, you need to H >>>remember that when you outsource to new employees, you have to expectK >>>problems initially, with a promise that within X time, the new guys will 7 >>>have ramped up and service problems will be reduced.  >>> E >>>So complaints at this point in time would be interpreted by uppper % >>>management as just "moving pains". J >>>What will REALLY make an impact is when customers write after a magicalD >>>number of days/weeks with statements such as "we were tolerant ofK >>>problems while you moved your support to new people, but that excuse has / >>>now expired and the problems still persist".  >>> G >>>Also, since these guys would be dialing in from India, make sure you I >>>enable virtual terminals on the modem line. Unless they restrict modem I >>>speed to 9600 or lower, there are very good chances that the line will E >>>be unstable and drop (or modem spending inordinate amounts of time I >>>retraining speed due to error rate). No matter how much fibre there is 6 >>>between India and USA, there is still a time delay. >>> J >>>One solution would be for HP to provide dial-out banks in north america" >>>for those indian drones to use. >>>  >>>  >  >  >   B Often, when you have a hardware problem, you need an engineer who: a. knows which part to replace b. has the part   c. knows how to replace the part  A Yes, some of that stuff is simple enough that even I could do it.     Many times service consisted of:4 a. I replaced the failing (StorageWorks) disk drive.2 b. A messenger showed up with a replacement drive.< c. I gave him the dead drive and he gave me the replacement.  I Trouble is, some of it isn't that simple.  I recall the case of the ES40  H that wouldn't boot and showed the wrong clock frequency at the console. G   If you replaced the Lithium coin cell (2032??) on the I/O backplane,  H it would boot.  It ate a lithium cell every six weeks or so.  It turned G out   that there was a crushed pin that should have supplied -12 volts  H to the I/O backplane and no longer did so. The lithium cell carried the F load for six weeks or so and died. If I had had to find that one, I'd G still be replacing lithium cells every six weeks.  It took a couple of  < CEs plus their telephone support guy to track that one down.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:48:41 -0600 1 From: "Jim Mehlhop (Parsec)" <mehlhop@parsec.com> ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India ) Message-ID: <452C5B89.1040504@parsec.com>   G How about from a Techie then.  Our VMS support group averages about 20  I years of experience.  We have taught VMS internals to VMS engineering as  % some of those people we have trained.    Jim   
 VMSguy wrote: G > What I have to say about "HP Authorized" is pretty much no different  4 > than what I think about the VMS Support Off Shore. > K > Not to say that PARSEC does or does not deliver - but I am simply fed up  H > with the HP VAR system.  Just tack on another 25% to the cost because  > you are a VAR. > D > I have gotten better and more qualified service from the likes of I > NORTHLAND, GREAT LAKES, ISLAND, etc. than I have from HPFS, HP, and HP   > VAR's. > D > These people have busted their butt to deliver a quality product, K > reasonable price, and produce quotes in a respectable amount of time.  I  J > can call them directly and chat with them about the product, etc., more 7 > so than I have been able to do with certain HP VAR's.  > C > When I hear "The only HP Authorized..." it makes me want to puke.  >  >  >  >  > Laura wrote: >  >> To all VMS/TRU64 UNIX users: H >> There is an alternative to HP ---- PARSEC Group, located in Denver CO >> --  >>J >> PARSEC Group is the only HP Authorized Independent Training Partner, HPG >> Solutions Alliance Partner & Microsoft Certified Technical Education I >> Center to earn Microsoft Gold Certified Partner for Enterprise Systems I >> in the World!  We offer expertise in OpenVMS, Microsoft BackOffice and G >> Tru64 UNIX, to name a few.  Our Trainers Consult and Our Consultants H >> Train.  We also offer 24x7 support contracts for our clients, as wellH >> as, business reviews/audits in IT processes, Disaster Recovery, VirusH >> Detection/Tracking, System Monitoring, Server & Desktop Environments,: >> e-Mail implementation, Back-up/Recovery procedures etc. >>H >> PARSEC can implement, migrate and integrate multiple platforms.  OverH >> 85% of our training classes are customized to the customers needs andD >> 100% of our consulting/service is customized applications for ourF >> clients and we guarantee 100% satisfaction to all of our customers. >>H >> We have over 200 current support customers; assisted over 700 clients? >> with selection of enterprise network; trained over 15,000 IT A >> Professionals and have held over 700 on-site training classes.  >>! >> Check us out at www.parsec.com  >> >> VMSguy wrote: >>   >>L >>> I just had my first experience with VMS Support in India - I do not like >>> it one bit.  >>> I >>> It reminds me of nothing more than my cable service - a total lack of < >>> intellectual thought process involved with these people. >>> G >>> Simply a bunch of idiots with a language barrier.  Ask for a simple G >>> dial-in for a crash analysis and I get the run around of "is this a G >>> hardware or software issue"  - Hell I do not know, that is why I am J >>> making the call - you dial-in and you tell me what the problems - I am; >>> paying you support.  They even lost my contract number.  >>> L >>> Mind you, I would love to add more colorful metaphors to this thread!  I$ >>> am not happy about this service. >>> K >>> I called 3 hours ago and I am still waiting for an e-mail response with E >>> instructions on what I need to do with the crash dump file (FTP I  >>> suppose)...  >>> H >>> No offense to India - I work with some people from India that are onA >>> their toes - they live here in the states - maybe that is the / >>> difference.  They share common interests...  >>> J >>> The group that now supports VMS?  Well if this is what HP thinks of us@ >>> as a customer then we are screwed as VMS users and managers. >>> = >>> Thanks HP for your lack of foresight in customer support.  >>>    >> >> >> >>   >>     --  
 James Mehlhop  PARSEC Group Office: 303-763-9600 x243  Remote Office: 719-638-8448 + *******************************************   F The information contained in this e-mail message is intended only for I the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s) named above.  This  G message is privileged and confidential.  If the reader of this message  I is not the intended recipient or  agent responsible for delivering it to  D the recipient, you are  hereby notified that you have received this F document in error and that any review, dissemination, distribution or F copying of this message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received H this Communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and A delete the original message. The opinions, conclusions and other  C information in this message do not necessarily represent the views    and/or opinions of PARSEC Group.  4 ****************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:11:38 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India 9 Message-ID: <iaGdnVhHfvdxw7HYnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Rich Jordan wrote:H >> Thanks for that.  I already wrote the board contact email, as well asI >> Hurd's, concerning our two service calls under the new situation (both ? >> disastrously slow and inept).  This will be worth doing too.  >  > B > While this and Sue's web pointer are very important, you need toG > remember that when you outsource to new employees, you have to expect J > problems initially, with a promise that within X time, the new guys will6 > have ramped up and service problems will be reduced.  F That's not what the customers paid for.  If HP wants the customers to C train their new support people, perhaps they should refund support  ; payments, and pay the customers for their time and efforts.   D > So complaints at this point in time would be interpreted by uppper% > management as just "moving pains".    , And interpreted by customers as 'the shaft'.  I > What will REALLY make an impact is when customers write after a magical C > number of days/weeks with statements such as "we were tolerant of J > problems while you moved your support to new people, but that excuse has. > now expired and the problems still persist". > F > Also, since these guys would be dialing in from India, make sure youH > enable virtual terminals on the modem line. Unless they restrict modemH > speed to 9600 or lower, there are very good chances that the line willD > be unstable and drop (or modem spending inordinate amounts of timeH > retraining speed due to error rate). No matter how much fibre there is5 > between India and USA, there is still a time delay.  > I > One solution would be for HP to provide dial-out banks in north america ! > for those indian drones to use.      --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:05:06 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India * Message-ID: <452bfcee@usenet01.boi.hp.com>    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:  O > I suspected this (cause of the old DEC 16.x.y.z IP address), but wasn't sure. 	 > Thanks.   P    I'd not make that inference.  15.*.*.* and 16.*.*.* are fully integrated and J have been for quite some time now, and there have been various subsequent O address space and domain name and server shuffles.  (I fully expect the Compaq  F IP address space was also fully integrated, but haven't checked that.)  Q    The current proxy scripts are comparatively complex, where the old DEC versus  O DIGITAL naming scheme was rather clearer and cleaner -- dec.com was inside the  L firewall and was not generally accessible to customers, and digital.com was N outside (either completely, or within a DMZ) and was (potentially) accessible.  I    None of which have to do with the internal nature of the voctool tool.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:19:11 -0500 % From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org>  Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX 5 Message-ID: <slrneinp0v.423.usenet@zappy.catbert.org>   h In article <1160501380.005144.71170@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Rohan <rohan.bakshi@qwest.com> wrote:% > Does Linux perform better than VMS?   C Depends on type of application. Too broad to generalize, otherwise.   C If you can give details about your hardware setup and applications, 5 perhaps I can give a better and more specific answer.   G No offense intended. It's just that broad questions gets broad answers. ) Specific questions gets specific answers.   C > What are advantages/disadvantages of having VMS or Linux over one 
 > another?   Well, in VMS's favor:   1 	1. Very stable code base; refined over 30 years.   = 	2. Clusters has been around for almost a quarter century and  	   is rock solid.  ; 	   In fact, VMS introduced clustering around the same time < 	   (almost the same month) that Berkeley introduced its ffs< 	   filesystem in 1983; UNIX clustering came much later, and7 	   wasn't as robust for at least another decade or so.   = 	   Unlike UNIX, the VMS clustering code is built into the OS : 	   and comes with every OS CD. It only requires a license< 	   key and some configuration to enable that functionality.  9 	3. Fewer known security issues, and exposure is smaller.   < 	4. Internal APIs are stable and do not change 'willy nilly'? 	   or often; thus, easier for ISVs to support. Also means that ? 	   older apps are much more likely to still correctly run long @ 	   into the future, unmodified. Solaris also enjoys this design 	   feature, but not Linux.   @ 	5. Very good resource management and in a cohesive way; refined? 	   over the years. Linux now has additional resource controls, 9 	   but not universal or as cohesive and well integrated.   = 	6. Commands are orthogonal (and consistent) by design, along ; 	   with logical and common qualifiers (command arguments).   = 	7. You can write some code in language #1 and call code from < 	   language #2 thanks to a common calling standard that the1 	   various VMS programming languages all honors.   : 	   You can't really do that easily with Linux today (ever@ 	   tried mixing native C compiler calls with GNU's C++ compiler# 	   or mixing C with BASIC calls?).   : 	8. Extremely well documented for all aspects of the OS --@ 	   the 'shell' (DCL) usage and programming, various programming? 	   languages, how to administer the system (2 volumes), how to < 	   install the OS, how to use various end-user apps, how to; 	   write programs in the VMS style (2 volumes?), and more.   6 	   Available as paper copies, HTML, or PDF documents.  @ 	9. You can learn VMS on a freely available OS CD and HP donates9 	   VMS licenses just by visiting a website, if it is for ) 	   personal and non-commercial use only.   > 	   This can be run under emulation on Linux or Windows, or on8 	   actual VAX/Alpha/Itanium hardware. Used decent Alpha< 	   workstations only costs several hundreds to just under a< 	   thousand U.S. Dollars on eBay or via VARs such as Island 	   Computers.   In Linux's favor:   B 	1. More young people of today has familiarity with this platform.  A 	2. HP is reportedly experiencing some internal difficulties. Has $ 	   not affected most customers yet.  ? 	3. For the most part, new server hardware for Linux is cheaper ( 	   than equivalent VMS server hardware.  ? 	4. HP is not selling VMS servers in the workstation or low-end D 	   arena; they are concentrated on medium range and high end sales.  = 	5. There is support for a much greater number of devices, as @ 	   well as new applications or newer versions of apps. This mayC 	   matter more if you have need to use relatively obscure devices.   < 	6. There is some long-term doubt by some people as to VMS's; 	   future at HP. By long-term, I mean more than 2-3 years.   > 	   This is not an universally held view, though. Others think? 	   VMS will continue to be developed, supported, and live on a / 	   viable commercially sold hardware platform.   D Personally, if I were running servers, I would want VMS gear because? they're stable, robust, and just work, and with a lower cost of F maintenance (once you get past the initial learning curve). For *home*F and personal use, I don't mind running Linux (or Mac OS X or whatever) workstations/laptops.   H I am comfortable with both, having served as an end user, administrator,H and developer (at one time or another) for both platforms. I learned VMSG and Unix (and was one of the early adopters of Linux) at the same time.   B There is a learning curve associated with VMS, but since it has anH orthogonal design, you can get the hang of it in relatively short order.  D Ultimately, it depends on what kind of people you have. If nobody is@ willing to learn a new platform (VMS) for administration or codeD development, then realistically, it's better to stick with platformsC that people know and am willing to manage. But if people can and am D willing to learn, then VMS is an option worth exploring in my honest opinion.   -Dan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:05:33 -0600  From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>  Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX 3 Message-ID: <1160507157_12231@sp6iad.superfeed.net>    Rohan wrote:% > Does Linux perform better than VMS?  > C > What are advantages/disadvantages of having VMS or Linux over one 
 > another?   Some Linux/*nix pluses:   9 . You can get native English speakers to help with Linux. . . HP isn't actively trying to eliminate Linux.7 . Fewer license problems. You don't need tp spend three 9    days and numerous long distance calls only to find out 9    that the one person you finally contacted that had any +    kind of clue, had quit the previous day. 4 . You don't need to determine how many UCX users you6    need to buy at $5000/user just to get telnet. (More    idiot licensing problems.) 0 . You don't need to depend on obsolete hardware:2    VAX-Gone. Alpha-Gone. Itanium-Nobody else uses.8 . You don't get asked "What version of Windows does that(    run under" from HP support personnel.5 . Linux doesn't tie you to a single hardware/software     company.   6 Dealing with VMS is getting worse (in my opinion) than# dealing with the telephone company.   : VMS was once a nice development platform, but a lot of its6 advantages are becoming insignificant with the rapidly9 advancing *nix software compared to VMS's fairly stagnant $ pace. And HP is dropping developers.  Q ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 12:47:57 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com  Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX C Message-ID: <1160509677.093974.186670@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Rohan wrote:% > Does Linux perform better than VMS?  > C > What are advantages/disadvantages of having VMS or Linux over one 
 > another?  C VMS is more secure and reliable, Linux has better open source tools  available for it.   C However, Linux is becoming more secure, and OpenVMS is getting more ! Open Source tools ported to it...   ? There are some places where Linux will be much better - such as G embedded applications, desktops.  For Internet-facing servers, disaster D tolerance, high-availability/scalability, secured/critical data, etc you want OpenVMS.   G If you have a bunch an computer animators with a huge render farm - use  Linux (or Macs).E If you have a bank or hospital where financial/private information is  critical - use OpenVMS. : If you have a bunch of employee desktops where much of the3 communication is via the web or e-mail - use Linux. = If you have a server(s) which controls a factory or processes > time-critical information (and loss of the server can cost you business) - use OpenVMS.  G If your data is not critical and downtime doesn't cost you productivity  - well, there are othe options.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:14:19 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX , Message-ID: <452BFF16.C8450D91@teksavvy.com>   Tom Linden wrote: ; > VMS doesn't crash, can't be hacked, is disaster tolerant.     F In a cluster, you can get a node to crash just by pulling the ethernetH cable from it.  (ok, there is good reason for it to happen, but it still crashes !).   D VMS can be hacked. Just because it is more difficult doesn't mean it cannot be done.   F And while VMS can be configured into a disaster tolerant multiple node3 system, out of the box, it isn't disaster tolerant.     - And Linux supporters can make similar claims.   F Where VMS wins is that it can achieve disaster tolerance in a far more> elegant fashion. And while the word "elegant" may appear to beD superficial, it is in fact very important. But having an elegant andB streamlined and fully functional cluster, it allows for a disasterH tolerant cluster to be setup far more easily and one which is far easierH to manage and also allow you to make better use of all your nodes during
 normal times.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 14:13:41 -0700" From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX B Message-ID: <1160514820.795353.323520@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>  G I thought this thread was quite informative.    Sensible, objective and  "to the point".    Then I saw this drivel.   " (is it possible he's a Canadian??)  6 On Oct 10, 12:05 pm, Kevin Handy <k...@srv.net> wrote: > Rohan wrote:' > > Does Linux perform better than VMS?  > E > > What are advantages/disadvantages of having VMS or Linux over one # > > another?Some Linux/*nix pluses:  > ; > . You can get native English speakers to help with Linux. 0 > . HP isn't actively trying to eliminate Linux.9 > . Fewer license problems. You don't need tp spend three ; >    days and numerous long distance calls only to find out ; >    that the one person you finally contacted that had any - >    kind of clue, had quit the previous day. 6 > . You don't need to determine how many UCX users you8 >    need to buy at $5000/user just to get telnet. (More >    idiot licensing problems.) 2 > . You don't need to depend on obsolete hardware:4 >    VAX-Gone. Alpha-Gone. Itanium-Nobody else uses.: > . You don't get asked "What version of Windows does that* >    run under" from HP support personnel.7 > . Linux doesn't tie you to a single hardware/software 
 >    company.  > 8 > Dealing with VMS is getting worse (in my opinion) than% > dealing with the telephone company.  > < > VMS was once a nice development platform, but a lot of its8 > advantages are becoming insignificant with the rapidly; > advancing *nix software compared to VMS's fairly stagnant & > pace. And HP is dropping developers. >  > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups M > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 14:16:49 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com  Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX C Message-ID: <1160515009.106079.143300@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    Rohan wrote:% > Does Linux perform better than VMS?  > C > What are advantages/disadvantages of having VMS or Linux over one 
 > another?  D go to the CERT site and compare the cert counts, then reask yourself that question ...    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:41:59 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger)  Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX [ Message-ID: <rdeininger-1010061841570001@dialup-4.233.128.239.dial1.manchester1.level3.net>   @ In article <slrneinp0v.423.usenet@zappy.catbert.org>, Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org> wrote:      > G >        4. HP is not selling VMS servers in the workstation or low-end L >           arena; they are concentrated on medium range and high end sales.  E This is simply false.  HP is selling entry-level servers (see rx1620, E rx2620) and "workstations" (use the optional built-in graphics in the I above, or add a better-performing PCI graphics card).  VMS supports these I configurations.  They are among the most popular VMS/Integrity offerings.   G Integrity "workstations" are servers with graphics, keyboard, and mouse J added, which is the same situation we've had on AlphaServers/AlphaStationsB for a number of years.  The only difference is the verbiage in the& marketing materials and product names.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:00:24 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX , Message-ID: <452C3406.EFF576AF@teksavvy.com>   Robert Deininger wrote: G > This is simply false.  HP is selling entry-level servers (see rx1620, G > rx2620) and "workstations" (use the optional built-in graphics in the 8 > above, or add a better-performing PCI graphics card).     D These configs may be available, but HP is not actively selling them.F There is a big difference. And rememeber that both HP and Intel statedE categorically since 2004 that IA64 is relegated to high end computing > tasks with many messages that it is not meant for the low end.  C Consider EV7 which was steered in such a direction where it cannmot H realistically be used on workstations. Wanna bet that the next iteration1 of that IA64 thing will have similar philosophy ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:00:45 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>  Subject: RE: VMS VS LINUX T Message-ID: <FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B868401BA6295@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]=20   > Sent: October 10, 2006 8:00 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX  >=20 > Robert Deininger wrote: ? > > This is simply false.  HP is selling entry-level servers=20  > (see rx1620,< > > rx2620) and "workstations" (use the optional built-in=20 > graphics in the=209 > > above, or add a better-performing PCI graphics card).  >=20 >=20F > These configs may be available, but HP is not actively selling them.> > There is a big difference. And rememeber that both HP and=20A > Intel stated categorically since 2004 that IA64 is relegated=20 B > to high end computing tasks with many messages that it is not=20 > meant for the low end. >=20   JF,   ; Now, now lets not do the revisionist history thing here ok?   F HP, Intel stated that Itanium based servers were primarily focussed onH the RISC market, so wherever you see PowerX, SPARC, Alpha, PA-RISC, MIPSE etc, then that was a market for Intanium. It was you that stated RISC  was high end only.  D Are you saying none of those other RISC platforms are low-med market focussed?=20  	 [snip...]   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:23:51 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>  Subject: RE: VMS VS LINUX T Message-ID: <FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B868401BA629B@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----0 > From: Rohan [mailto:rohan.bakshi@qwest.com]=20  > Sent: October 10, 2006 1:30 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > Subject: VMS VS LINUX  >=20% > Does Linux perform better than VMS?  >=20B > What are advantages/disadvantages of having VMS or Linux over=20 > one another? >=20    H Linux certainly has more open source options, and if that is a big issueG for you, then that can be a big swaying point. Linux entry cost is also E better than OpenVMS, but you need to consider the application testing E impact associated with numerous monthly security patches as well (see  later in note below).   H Security, rock solid reliability, and ultra-high availability (includingA load balanced, multi-site solutions 500 miles apart) is certainly H something in OpenVMS favour, but these have already been mentioned a few times.  H One note is that, while the many security issues associated with WindowsD is well known, I do not think most people really understand just how9 many Linux security patches come out every month as well.   G Check out this Red Hat web site which documents the *security* not bug,  fixes every month:H https://www.redhat.com/archives/enterprise-watch-list/2006-July/thread.hG tml (click on thread for each month and add them up for yourself - as I F recall, from this link, 285 *security* (not bug) patches were released in 2005)  $ A few additional notes on this link:@ - while not all security patches on this site apply to all LinuxC systems, a large number of patches are packaged patches which means % multiple patches on that thread link. G - while most Cust's will pick-n-choose which bug fixes they apply, most C Cust's will not delay applying security patches if it even remotely ! sounds like it might impact them. D - mission critical shops always test their important Apps before any  patch is rolled into production.H - with 5-20 *security* patches being released each month for Linux, whatF does that do to the QA/Testing Dept who must test their important appsE before releasing these monthly security patches to prod? Does the low ( cost of entry really look that good now?  B While OpenVMS certainly does have the occasional secuity patch (noH platform is 100% secure), it is like comparing a corner store vs a bank.F Yes, there are lots more corner stores around, but which one has fewer> break-ins? Which one would you likely leave your savings with?   :-)    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:56:52 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX * Message-ID: <452becf2@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   Rohan wrote:% > Does Linux perform better than VMS?  > C > What are advantages/disadvantages of having VMS or Linux over one 
 > another?  7    What deceptively simple-looking questions those are.   )    What might your particular goal(s) be?   #    What application(s) do you need?   !    What requirements do you have?   "    What is your particular budget?  P    Discussions of operating system platforms are -- and both for better and for P worse -- largely irrelevant in isolation, and seldom particularly enlightening. P   Without details and without the local considerations, there can be much smoke J and heat, and comparatively few or even no answers.  Almost no one buys a I computer platform or an operating system in isolation, after all -- most  L everybody buys a box to solve one or more problems that the particular site + might have, and chooses a solution based on   #    Here are a few related comments:   D http://h20325.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/archive/2006/09/27/1660.htmlD http://h20325.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/archive/2006/08/22/1508.html  L    The OpenVMS FAQ covers this basic "which is better?" discussion, as well:  ! http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:51:36 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>  Subject: RE: VMS VS LINUX T Message-ID: <FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B868401BA62A8@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>    -----Original Message-----  > From: Main, Kerry=20  > Sent: October 10, 2006 9:24 PM$ > To: 'Rohan'; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: VMS VS LINUX  >=20  	 [snipp..]    >=208 > Check out this Red Hat web site which documents the=20( > *security* not bug, fixes every month:@ > https://www.redhat.com/archives/enterprise-watch-list/2006-JulB > y/thread.html (click on thread for each month and add them up=20? > for yourself - as I recall, from this link, 285 *security*=20 * > (not bug) patches were released in 2005) >=20 [snip..]  E Oops - likely could guess, but the above link is for one mobnth only.  The link for all months is: @ https://www.redhat.com/archives/enterprise-watch-list/index.html   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:10:24 -0700 * From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos-remove.com> Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX ) Message-ID: <op.tg8lrmqrtte90l@hyrrokkin>   6 On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:41:59 -0700, Robert Deininger  % <rdeininger@mindspringdot.com> wrote:   B > In article <slrneinp0v.423.usenet@zappy.catbert.org>, Dan Foster > <usenet@evilphb.org> wrote:  >  >  >>H >>        4. HP is not selling VMS servers in the workstation or low-endH >>           arena; they are concentrated on medium range and high end  	 >> sales.  > G > This is simply false.  HP is selling entry-level servers (see rx1620, G > rx2620) and "workstations" (use the optional built-in graphics in the K > above, or add a better-performing PCI graphics card).  VMS supports these K > configurations.  They are among the most popular VMS/Integrity offerings.   E That is very discouraging, Robert, since Integrity was supposed to be 	 high-end.    > I > Integrity "workstations" are servers with graphics, keyboard, and mouse 3 > added, which is the same situation we've had on    > AlphaServers/AlphaStationsD > for a number of years.  The only difference is the verbiage in the( > marketing materials and product names.       --  E Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:05:22 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX , Message-ID: <452C5F55.B772DEF6@teksavvy.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:H > HP, Intel stated that Itanium based servers were primarily focussed on > the RISC market,    ? Sorry, even Marcello stated IA64 was being refocued to high end D computing. So had Carly and others within HP, as well as Intel which rep]eatedly said so.  E They *also* said it was competing against Risc. But that simply means D that Intel won't allow IA64 to compete against Intel's main industry: standard product which scales from palmtop to data centre.  H And for what it is worth, Power is available in kid's videogames all the way to major data centre.    Ok, here is a test for you:   B from www.hp.com, choose  "Desktops and Workstations" in any of the classes. It leads to:   9 http://h30046.www3.hp.com/products.php?topiccode=DESKTOPS   / From there, choose "Workstations". It leads to:   N http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/pscmisc/vac/us/en/sm/workstations/index-en.html  @ From there, if you choose "Personal workstations", it shows only' industry standatrd 80867 based systems. E From you choose "RISC/UNIX" (which mentiosn only HP-UX), and you then 6 get a choice of PA-Riosc and Alpha based workstations.   NO MENTION OF THAT IA64 THING.  A So, please do not tell me that HP is seriously pushing IA64 based G workstations. It is still producing new Pa-Risc based workstations, and + still showing off Alpha based workstations.   F Beasides, when HP announced it was discontinuing IA64 workstations, it? really meant it. It didn't just state that it was consolidating C workstation and small servers, it said it was widthdrawing from the 0 workstation market and focusing on the high end.      D BTW, the good news is that on the front www.hp.com page, there is noB longer that silly "fill a whole area with a tiled single white dotC image" that slows down the web site display so much. Lets hope this + propagates to the rest of the HP web sites.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:38:27 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX 9 Message-ID: <_4WdnaEA4Kqo-LHYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Robert Deininger wrote: H >> This is simply false.  HP is selling entry-level servers (see rx1620,H >> rx2620) and "workstations" (use the optional built-in graphics in the9 >> above, or add a better-performing PCI graphics card).   >  > F > These configs may be available, but HP is not actively selling them.H > There is a big difference. And rememeber that both HP and Intel statedG > categorically since 2004 that IA64 is relegated to high end computing @ > tasks with many messages that it is not meant for the low end. > E > Consider EV7 which was steered in such a direction where it cannmot J > realistically be used on workstations. Wanna bet that the next iteration3 > of that IA64 thing will have similar philosophy ?   @ Next iteration?  You some kind of optimist?  Wanna buy a bridge?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:42:11 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: VMS VS LINUX 9 Message-ID: <_4WdnaAA4KqJ-7HYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@libcom.com>   # dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com wrote: I > I thought this thread was quite informative.    Sensible, objective and  > "to the point".  >  > Then I saw this drivel.  > $ > (is it possible he's a Canadian??) > 8 > On Oct 10, 12:05 pm, Kevin Handy <k...@srv.net> wrote: >> Rohan wrote: ' >>> Does Linux perform better than VMS? E >>> What are advantages/disadvantages of having VMS or Linux over one # >>> another?Some Linux/*nix pluses: < >> . You can get native English speakers to help with Linux.1 >> . HP isn't actively trying to eliminate Linux. : >> . Fewer license problems. You don't need tp spend three< >>    days and numerous long distance calls only to find out< >>    that the one person you finally contacted that had any. >>    kind of clue, had quit the previous day.7 >> . You don't need to determine how many UCX users you 9 >>    need to buy at $5000/user just to get telnet. (More   >>    idiot licensing problems.)3 >> . You don't need to depend on obsolete hardware: 5 >>    VAX-Gone. Alpha-Gone. Itanium-Nobody else uses. ; >> . You don't get asked "What version of Windows does that + >>    run under" from HP support personnel. 8 >> . Linux doesn't tie you to a single hardware/software >>    company. >>9 >> Dealing with VMS is getting worse (in my opinion) than & >> dealing with the telephone company. >>= >> VMS was once a nice development platform, but a lot of its 9 >> advantages are becoming insignificant with the rapidly < >> advancing *nix software compared to VMS's fairly stagnant' >> pace. And HP is dropping developers.   I Except fro the last paragraph, which I don't agree with, with respect to  ; insignificant advantages, what other points do you dispute?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 12:41:21 -0700- From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net>  Subject: Re: What is DELETEX? C Message-ID: <1160509281.480189.145770@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    RLFitch wrote:G > I would say an "undocumented feature" is a BUG (yuck), different from A > an "unsupported feature" which IS RIPE for exploitation (caveat  > programmer). >  >  > Ransom Fitch  E The workings of the DCL command parser is very well documented, as is > the use of foreign command symbols. RTFM. Can you think of anyG operating system that can't be exploited by a cleverly implemented (and B privileged user installed) "trojan horse" disguised as a valid and+ innocent command (or icon, or application)?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:03:26 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: What is DELETEX? , Message-ID: <452BFC8B.EA17E4A8@teksavvy.com>   RLFitch wrote: > G > I would say an "undocumented feature" is a BUG (yuck), different from A > an "unsupported feature" which IS RIPE for exploitation (caveat  > programmer).    I The use of extra characters like DELETEX is not an undocumented feature.    B $EDIT :== "SPAWN/NOWAIT/INPUT=NLA0: EDIT/TPU/INTERFACE=DECWINDOWS"  9 But if I need to use the FDL editor, all I need to do is:    EDITX/FDL myfile.fld  E The symbol parser uses the full words. So EDITX does not match EDIT.  F The command parser uses only first 4 characters, so EDITX matches EDIT  G So, by adding a random letter after EDIT, I bypass my normal definition + and use a different one for this time only.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:33:13 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger)  Subject: Re: What is DELETEX? [ Message-ID: <rdeininger-1010061833250001@dialup-4.233.128.239.dial1.manchester1.level3.net>   B In article <1160500734.968871.92390@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,$ "RLFitch" <rlfitch@gmail.com> wrote:  F >I would say an "undocumented feature" is a BUG (yuck), different from@ >an "unsupported feature" which IS RIPE for exploitation (caveat
 >programmer).  >  > 
 >Ransom Fitch   J The feature is both documented and supported, and has been for more than 2 decades.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:54:53 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>  Subject: Re: What is DELETEX? : Message-ID: <2p6dneB2DpRcubHYnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@comcast.com>   RLFitch wrote:  E > Ran into this command (DELETEX) and not sure how it is defined.  Is > > this the same as DELETE?  Is this an "undocumented command"? > 
 > Thanks,  > Ransom Fitch >   ? I suspect it is intended to execute the DELETE command without  C translating it as a symbol; e.g. if someone has defined the symbol  B DELETE as DELETE /CONFIRM DELETEX will execute DELETE without the , /CONFIRM.  You might try SHOW SYMBOL DELETE.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:26:25 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> Subject: Re: What is DELETEX? * Message-ID: <452be5ce@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   RLFitch wrote:G > I would say an "undocumented feature" is a BUG (yuck), different from A > an "unsupported feature" which IS RIPE for exploitation (caveat  > programmer).      True.  O    A subtle difference here is that this particular undocumented feature is in  N rather wide usage, and -- while it's not documented as far as I can locate -- T its long-standing and broad usage makes its removal from DCL comparatively unlikely.  G    I've submitted an enhancement request 75-118-33 against the OpenVMS  C documentation for DCL; a request that this behaviour be documented.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2006 19:19:42 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: What is DELETEX? C Message-ID: <1160533182.864826.192050@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    RLFitch wrote:E > Ran into this command (DELETEX) and not sure how it is defined.  Is > > this the same as DELETE?  Is this an "undocumented command"? > 	 > Thanks,  > Ransom Fitch  > Why, it deflects DELETE's from your windshield! :-) Of course.   There's your difference.  G (For those in the dark on this one, the reference is the product called  RAIN-X.)   AEF    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.558 ************************