1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 15 Oct 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 566       Contents: Re: Damning with faint praise?F Re: How former HP support staff needs to form a new US support center! Re: PARSEC: SPAMMERS Re: PARSEC: SPAMMERS VAX Throttle under SIMH  Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: VMS Support in India Re: We're all going to die!!!   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 08:13:52 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> ' Subject: Re: Damning with faint praise? 1 Message-ID: <egru93$jlc$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi Paul,  % > If you are going to claim that "Guy - > gushed", please supply a _valid_ reference.   A Not that I've seen your COV Sheriff's Badge, but if you insist: - L http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1007568  I Personally, I feel all queasy and unclean when I read it, but see how you L get on. Unfortunately Guy Peleg's Goebbelsesque attempt at manipulating whatG the public is allowed to see has deprived you of the best parts of that K thread. They can be found in a COV thread under the heading "The reply they L didn't want you to see". But I know what a stickler you are for attributions6 and valid references, so I reproduced the entry below.  J Also Paul, as you were one of the people I had in mind when knocking up my/ example, you may also wish to have a look at: - L http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1058548   Cheers Richard Maher  ' "The reply they didn't want you to see"    Hi,   K The following was entered into HP's ITRC forum for VMS on Mar 12th 13:45 as  part of the following thread.   H http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=...  I It was subsequently, the only reply removed yesterday from that thread by G the self-appointed decorum police, apparently because I upset someone's K buddy. I don't recall them appearing when I was being spat on, so I find it K a tad incongrous that they turn up now to give me a parking ticket. Anyway, K I wrote it, I think it's compelling reading, I can't find anything in there F to reproach myself about, and I want to put it out of the reach of theL self-serving revisionists that sadly seem to be running the show these days.I If I want to reminiss in the future then I want somewhere I can look this  up.   L So if you are of a delicate disposition and find such stuff distasteful thenI look away now. This is for me. Read-it / Don't read it. That's up to you.   I It's almost verbatim, but the crappy way you have to enter things in ITRC C means I had to break it into two and may have changed the odd word.      Regards Richard Maher     3 On Mar 7, 2006 21:03:06 GMT  John Gillings wrote: - L ITRC is entirely voluntary. It's pretty much at the bottom of my priorities. <<<   G Not for me - I just can't get enough of it! I've placed it way up there L between breathing and eating, on my life's to-do list. Why, only yesterday IL asked my secretary to block book at least three days from every week just toD respond to the unsubstantiated rumours and commercially damaging FUD2 emanating from the poisonous pens of HP employees.     I don't come here to "spar"  <<<   J Which would make your standing-up-walking-over-and-punching-me-in-the-nose all the more bizarre!   D But if, by having the absolute gall to defend themselves, one was toG precipitate an appearance boycott by some Dame Nellie Melba then hey, I / guess we'll just all have to try to soldier-on.     , On Mar 8, 2006 20:53:26 John Gillings wrote:	 Consider:    CLRL R0  CALLG (R0),your-routine  <<<     K OK let's consider it. No! Let's go really crazy and actually test it before I we start shooting our mouths off and denigrating other people's software. E (Doesn't look like anybody else could be bothered. Maybe it's just my H fascination with FACTS.) Here's the output from a simple command file: -  
 $ set noon $ create lasik.mar0 .title none_so_blind - as those who will not see .entry blind_freddy,^m<>       CLRL R0 (     CALLG (R0),g^t3$$waitfr_file_promote       $exit_s code=#1  .end blind_freddy  $ macro/lis lasik  $ link lasik,sys$input/opt sys$share:dir_watch_exec/share $!% $ write sys$output f$getjpi("","PID")  00000D37 $ run lasik ; %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual : address=0000000000000000, PC=0000000000030030, PS=0000001B/ %TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump follows J   image    module    routine             line      rel PC           abs PC>  LASIK                                      0 0000000000020030 0000000000030030>                                             0 FFFFFFFF89043494 FFFFFFFF89043494% $ write sys$output f$getjpi("","PID")  00000D37  J Funny thing is, my process (let alone my machine) is still up and running. What a surprise! NOT.   0 Want to see one that traps the access violation?   $create prk.cob  identification division. program-id.    Santa_Lucia.  data division. working-storage section. 01  sys_status pic s9(9) comp. procedure division.  00. *     call "blind_freddy" giving sys_status.3     display "Status = " sys_status with conversion. 
     stop run.  *  end program Santa_Lucia. $cob/lis prk $! $create lasik.mar  .call_entry label=blind_freddy       MOVAB g^exe$sigtoret,(FP)      CLRL R0 (     CALLG (r0),g^t3$$waitfr_file_promote     ret    .end $mac/lis lasik$ $link/sysexe prk,lasik,sys$input/opt sys$share:dir_watch_exec/share $run prk Status =         12     1 =================================================     I John, on those occasions when it has become apparent to me that I've been J talking through my bottom on a given issue (usually some time after it hadK crystallised for almost everyone else), I've found it best just to stick my J hands up in the air, apologise for having wasted everyone else's time, andH then move on to the next issue. Maybe there's something in that for you?     Try it on a VAX  <<<    OK, lets: -    SYSTEM> @dir_watch This code only works on alpha  %SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort   Doh!  J I think the clue is in the error message. My code is, and always has been,I Alpha-specific as you well know. How exactly were you expecting me to run I this on a VAX? Why not a PDP? (And I have this slight suspicion that it's H just not gonna compile-and-run on an IA64 either. These calling standard# changes must really throw you hey?)   K Oh I get it! You've plucked a handful of my Alpha Macro-32 instructions out D of context, placed them in your imaginary system on a VAX and am nowJ lecturing me publicly about the security and box-crashing pitfalls in your design?   ; Gather round children. Uncle John is gonna tell us a story. 
 .  .  .  .F And then the big bad wolf ate the third little pig 'cos he hadn't usedC string to bind his bricks! Now due to planetary alignment and sheer G providence sometimes concrete may keep a weak wolf out but depending on = these coincidences is completely the wrong attitude. I have a L dead-sea-scrolls copy of "Everything you need to build a Stick House" and itH clearly states that if you don't use string to bind the sticks the house will fall over. So there!   9 Q: What do these "strings" look like on Alpha Uncle John?   I Q: Yeah and why don't the sys$examples:uwss.c and $getuai and $qio houses 	 use them?   8 A: Shut up and go back to sleep you impudent young pups!      C look it up in the architecture manual (section 8.4 in my 1977 first 5 edition). That's how the CALL instruction is defined.  <<<   H Cheers for that fascinating little meander down memory lane, but I don'tJ have to look anything up as my code on VAX, like many others' I'd imagine,K is based on sys$examples:ussdisp.mar which does the job quite nicely thanks K very much. Or was that you jumping up and down yelling "He's doing the same & thing on VAX everyone! He is! He is!"?  G Now, to attempt that inference would take a particularly nasty piece o' L work! Which obviously you're not John. But a casual observer may be forgivenJ for thinking that you're trying to transfer your smear of my Alpha code to< the VAX by proxy. We wouldn't want that to happen, would we?      F [Are you actually looking for help and advice, or are you just here to insult people?]  <<<   I For some time now I have been, and sadly still am, seeking "help" here in 1 the form of answers to the following questions: -     G Q1: Without the use of enhanced privileges and with the Main Executable J Image not having being INSTALLed: - Can a call from an inner-mode UWSS outE to any other shareable image (/PROTECTED or otherwise) be spoofed and L redirected to another shareable image? My testing to-date indicates that theH image activator insists on all shareable images being INSTALLed. Is this$ supported and architected behaviour?    L Q2: When a LIB$ routine is called from an EXEC Mode UWSS, why does the imageB activator consider Non-Trusted, Supervisor-Mode Logical Names whenK activating LIBRTL? Furthermore, why does the image activator then appear to K ignore non-trusted logical names when activating other shareable images? Is & there something peculiar about LIBRTL?    J Now either you don't know the answer to these questions (which is fine) orE you choose not to share the answers in this forum (which is also your K prerogative). I cannot compel anyone to reply, nor should I be able to. But J imagine my surprise and displeasure when, instead of answers, I am greeted8 with unsubstantiated and disparaging FUD such as this: -    C [For a start, I'd want to see some far more extensive validation of ; arguments before deploying your code on one of my systems.]  <<<   I Do you consider that statement to be "Helpful" John? Why did you use your L status as a HP employee, VMS Support person, and your pointy little crown toJ carry out an emotive and subjective attack on the commercial quality of my code? How 'bout one of mine: -    F "For a start, I'd want to see a higher calibre of HP employee involved5 before I'd fork out one cent for a support contract."     E Personally, I'd describe both of those statements as churlish, highly & inflammatory and anything but helpful.    E In this case, my code to which you refer was being offered only as an G example of a UWSS calling out to LIBRTL and while I don't recall asking H someone, as purportedly busy as yourself, to perform a critique on it, IJ always welcome additional testers and bug-spotters. Stick your code's headJ above the parapet and someone's bound to take a shot at it. I'm big enoughK and ugly enough to look after myself. Having said that, if "help" was truly J being offered (as opposed to an attempt at public ridicule) then one mightL have expected a short e-mail. But I'm certainly not shy when it comes to theG public "outing" of bugs that need fixing so I would have been genuinely L grateful if you had have said something like "Why aren't you probing the argG list?" or "I think there's a typo and your IFNORD should be a IFNOWRT". B Sadly, I think we all know  "help" was not what I got John was it?    G upon entry to your routine, AP will be zero. Therefore the instruction:    CMPB (AP),#anything  will ACCVIO. <<<   K More heresay, conjecture and just plain wrong! All the evidence I've posted J here says the System Service Dispatcher prevents this from happening. HaveK you ever even written a UWSS on Alpha? I can't believe you've really wasted K this much of my, and everyone else's time, with your frivolous speculation! J (But you're too busy for that. So this must be malicious mud slinging! But. why John? Have I done something wrong to you?)  L Maybe you really did believe there was a fire in the theatre John, maybe youK did smell smoke, but that doesn't help the dead lying trampled on the floor ! because of your beak now does it?   A I tell you what, why don't you resort to that last bastion of the J floundering support person: - HP's internal VMSNOTES notes conference, andK see if you can't dig up someone who knows what they're talking about. Maybe F they can find some other part of the code that can be manipulated intoI crashing the system. Then you can come back and tell us that that was the G vulnerability you were talking about all along. (To my knowledge, these J particular routines have never been tested in the field so, who knows, you may get "lucky").     L Now, as it *happens*, in some cases the Alpha MACRO-32 compiler may generateK code for the CALL in such a way as to result in an ACCVIO *before* actually E calling the target routine. That may protect you from this particular J exploit, but depending on coincidences is entirely the wrong attitude when coding in inner modes. <<<   K Just what is that smut you're peddling? You should write for a tabloid like H The Sun. ("Sources close to the couple" have informed us that undetectedL access violations have been going on for years. Big-G's paparazzi understandL it's just the tip of the iceberg!) Was it LA Confidential where they used to say "Just the facts ma'am!".  K If you'd've permitted your eyes to even countenance the possibility of your J being wrong, then they would have been able to simply peruse the wealth ofK evidence that I placed before them. I even gave you the line numbers in the K VMS source code to look at! And all you did was put your hands to your ears ( and sing "I can't heeear you! La La La".  I Anyway, I've wasted enough time as a VMS customer and DSPP partner on the J ITRC experience and I'm clearly not going to get anything out of you otherI than conjecture so, for the benefit of the wider audience, I submit it as C fact that "It is the architected function of the VMS System Service H Dispatcher to probe the argument list (not the arguments themselves) forH accessibility before calling a UWSS". I can't say it's indisputable factK but, given the weight of evidence in previous replies, I wouldn't expect to # see too much proof to the contrary.   A John, I don't know what your agenda has been here but a window of K opportunity has presented itself to you. I scincerely hope that you embrace  it.    Regards Richard Maher     < "Paul Sture" <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> wrote in messageD news:paul.sture.nospam-1D6D7E.04241605102006@mac.sture.homeip.net...3 > In article <eg0kml$ej3$1@news-02.connect.com.au>, 7 >  "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote:  >  > > Hi Paul, > > ; > > > Sorry. I didn't quite follow your attributions there,  > > H > > Well, it's all about you isn't it? Let's hold everyone else back and stop8 > > the bus just so Paul Sture can catch-up. Only child? > >  > J > Nope. It's all about you misquoting. If you are going to claim that "Guy- > gushed", please supply a _valid_ reference.  > B > All Guy did was to refute John Gillings' inference that his only@ > experience of VMS was "He was only with HP for what, 6 years?" >  > Both on ITRC at  > K > http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1063  > 773  > ) > ---- quote of Guy's response there ----  > ( > Sep 28, 2006 14:44:23 GMT   Unassigned" >  Just to comment on John's reply > + > (I did not want to get involved but could * > not resist when I saw my name mentioned) > * > When I joined engineering, I already had( > 7 years of experience with VMS (system > manager and support center). >  > Guy  >  > ---- end quote ----  > G > and here in response to John Reinhardt's unfortunate regurgitation of $ > Gillings' corporate drivel on ITRC > $ > ---- Guy's response on c.o.v. ----B > "When I joined engineering I had 7 years of experience with VMS" > ---- end quote ----  > ( > P.S. Your habit of top posting stinks. >  > --   > Paul Sture   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Oct 2006 23:02:18 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)O Subject: Re: How former HP support staff needs to form a new US support center! + Message-ID: <4pd8jpFigghtU2@individual.net>   0 In article <453114B1.5DAFBA8D@spam.comcast.net>,6 	David J Dachtera <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net> writes: >  > So, question:  > R > Suppose Bruden, Parsec, TES, (the corporate parent of) Process, TDI, SP/32, etc.R > were to combine their financial resources. Assuming such level of cooperation isO > attainable, would the resultant partnership have the financial wherewithal to Q > wrest OpenVMS away from HP (and buy openvms.com from someone I know personally) ' > and finally let it be what it CAN be?   K How could they "wrest" OpenVMS away from HP?  It is either for sale or not. I And up til now, not.  All the money in the world won't buy something that  is not for sale.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 14:02:25 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: PARSEC: SPAMMERS 9 Message-ID: <UMidnRjQbK6duazYnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@libcom.com>    Neil Rieck wrote: = > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  ( > news:452E11EA.4A5DC183@teksavvy.com... >> Neil Rieck wrote:K >>> list. While this is almost always useless when coming from professional J >>> spammers, this feature is properly supported with reputable companies  >>> like >>> PARSEC. K >> If you got the email, check the source. The "opt out" in HTML pointed to I >> the spamming company web site, not to parsec. So you have no idea what G >> they will do with it. In most cases, they flag your email address as G >> having been verified and can sell it for higher price because it has  >> been verified.  >> > L > I'll check my commercial email at work this morning then I'll get back to  > you. > K > To your point, professional spammers already know you are there when the  O > destination mail server doesn't send back an "invalid recipient code (550)".  L > BTW, have you ever received a blank email? This is what the spammers call L > "account probing". Now there are some ways for the SMTP server manager to M > modify the platform in order to limit how the machine reacts to suspicious  - > email but there is no way (yet) to stop it.   H When you send an opt-out message, that tells the spammer another thing. I   You had to read the message in order to opt-out.  Knowing who actually  6 reads the spam would be very valuable to the spammers.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 14:05:46 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: PARSEC: SPAMMERS 9 Message-ID: <UMidnRvQbK5UuazYnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@libcom.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:i > In article <452e0faa$0$5896$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:  > N >> I suspect that if you were reading the PARSEC email from a PC email client K >> (like Windoz), that there would have been an opt-out link at the bottom  N >> which you could have clicked on to remove yourself from their distribution  > D > NEVER opt-out from something to which you did not opt-in.  It only > encourages spammers. > K >> list. While this is almost always useless when coming from professional  N >> spammers, this feature is properly supported with reputable companies like 
 >> PARSEC. > F > If PARSEC is sending Unsolicited Bulk Email, they are not reputable.  F Not really accurate.  One could be reputable, but spam.  One could be I not reputable, but not spam.  The two have no distinct connection.  That  4 said, I'd feel that most spammers are not reputable.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 00:27:08 GMT + From: "Villy Madsen" <Villy.Madsen@shaw.ca>   Subject: VAX Throttle under SIMH. Message-ID: <wffYg.140765$5R2.59952@pd7urf3no>  	 Greetings    Just to satisfy my curiosity  7 could you send me an e-mail  or leave a posting on here   E if you are using or have used from throttled version of the SIMH VAX   emulator   Thanks   Villy Madsen   FirstName.LastName@Shaw.ca     ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 15:37:24 -0500 ! From: VMSguy <vmsguy@comcast.net> ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India * Message-ID: <45314A84.9030105@comcast.net>   It just goes from bad to worse.   8 I got a call from the a survey group wanting to know my H thoughts/feelings on the level of quality of service I received from my  recent support call...  F I could not easily understand the person - another thick accent - and  she was too fast of a talker. = In addition, the questions were fairly vague and mis-leading.   G I asked to clarify the "vague" question the response was that I should  & answer the question as I interpret it.G What kind of answer is that?  If I mis-interpret the question then the  0 answer and ultimately the survey is invalidated.  H By leading I mean that the question is taking you down a one way street  that you is self incriminating.   F The very first question was "Was your problem resolved" - if I answer I "Yes" then why bother with anything else?  I mean, my problem was fixed,  I wasn't it?  Who cares anything about the level frustration of getting to  E that resolution!  Who cares if I have to answer ridiculous questions  3 that make no sense!  Who cares... hmmm, HP doesn't.    I got frustrated and hung up.   F And what really ticks me off - when I call the support line I get all G these questions about my contract - "is your address ..." and "is your  H phone number ..." - look quit with the small talk and put my on hold so   I can listen to soothing music!    .. sorry for spewing...   F VMS is a great product - HP should let it go the freeware path and we  users can make it live again.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 20:55:41 -0400  From: "Ray" <no@spam.me>! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India * Message-ID: <8GfYg.44$yP2.26@newsfe04.lga>  H > I asked to clarify the "vague" question the response was that I should( > answer the question as I interpret it. > What kind of answer is that?  C It is obvious to me the person asking the question was reading from A a script, and has no understanding of what the question means. So G if the person doesn't understand the question either, and yet is tasked I to get an answer out of you, that "response" is perfectly understandable.   C Next time you get called (it is highly probable that *everyone* who I calls will be "surveyed" for a while), since you are allowed to interpret A the questions any way you please, you could answer every question B by saying that the support you received was highly unsatisfactory,< and you would be happy to discuss it further with a manager.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 21:37:09 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ! Subject: Re: VMS Support in India , Message-ID: <453190AE.67858547@teksavvy.com>   OK, a totally different view:   A Since the economies of India and China are outgrowing that of the F western world, perhaps the expectation is that sales can actually growQ more if the sales/support is done from Asia to serve all the new Asian customers.   H (Of course,  logical thing would have been to leave western sales/suport+ intact and just setup asian sales/support).    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 07:17:00 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> & Subject: Re: We're all going to die!!!1 Message-ID: <egrqug$f68$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi Ian,   8 > I do belive the google ad engine has a sense of humor.  K It may have had more to do with my use of the phrase "can't speak English",  but I like your version better.    Cheers Richard Maher  6 PS. Anyway, we all know nobody reads those web ads ;-)  + "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> wrote in message = news:1159979076.964723.179380@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... B Interestingly one of the google sponsered ads displayed when I was reading your posting was  : ---------------------------------------------------------- Speak English Fluently" Correct your English Today. Proven# Speech Improvement Software - VPSLT 
 EyeSpeak.info 1 ------------------------------------------------- 6 I do belive the google ad engine has a sense of humor.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.566 ************************