1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 21 Oct 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 579       Contents:! Re: Another Vax/Alpha/VMS triumph # Re: Cisco Equipment trade for DS10L  Re: DECconnect adapters  Re: DECconnect adapters ( Re: Digital Server 5305 hardware problem Re: DS10L to a good home... 4 Re: Heads up: La Fiorina's book coming out next week% Re: Innovative use of DSSI cabinets !  Re: LAN failover Mylex question Re: Mylex question Re: Mylex question Re: OpenVMS over VMWare  Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. : Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server.: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server.: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server.: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server.  VMS DCL script programmer needed$ Re: VMS DCL script programmer needed  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2006 07:56:34 +01002 From: "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow>* Subject: Re: Another Vax/Alpha/VMS triumph? Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-JRSj2RTpduX7@dave2_os2.home.ours>   B On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:42:51 UTC, frey@encompasserve.org (Sharon)  wrote:  s > In article <Svk9N+MrCIdH@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: _ > > In article <asqrReptG1x2@eisner.encompasserve.org>, frey@encompasserve.org (Sharon) writes: N > >> 	Just got an email about a successful project completion at work and had U > >> to share.  If you all remember, we do 911 Dispatching software on Vax and Alpha  P > >> platforms.  We've had a team working on a Vax to Alpha upgrade for a LARGE U > >> customer over the past year or two.  This one happened to be the version of our  R > >> software written entirely in Macro - the oldest system still in use, I think. > > H > >    Congrats to you and those you work for.  I guess there are no PHB
 > >    there.  > J > 	Oh there ARE, of course.  But also we have two product lines, mine and P > the Windoze products.  When people ask me if I'm going to "upgrade" myself to 6 > the new product line sometime, I laugh uproariously.  - I know _just_ what you mean - lol in empathy.    --   Cheers - Dave W.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2006 07:27:21 -0700  From: "Mike" <mlpoole@gmail.com>, Subject: Re: Cisco Equipment trade for DS10LB Message-ID: <1161440841.776395.186740@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>  F I think that is probably the best way to go.  David has been great and% it's high time I give him some money.        Mike wrote: 
 > Hi guys, > E > I would like to see if anyone is interested in some Cisco equipment = > toward a trade for a DS10L to be used as a hobbyist system.  > B > I have a PIX-501 Firewall with PIX 6.2 and 3DES and a Cisco 1602	 > router.  >  > Also a brand-new, in the box:  > D > ASUS P5AD2-E Premium Motherboard for LGA775 Pentium4 (also Extreme
 > Edition) >  - 1066 Mhz frontside bus . >  - PCIe x16 slot, 2 x PCIe x1, 3 x PCI slots; >  - Silicon Image RAID Controller (4 x SATA RAID 0, 1, 10) < >  - ITE IDE RAID Controller (2 x UltraDMA) RAID 0, 1, 0 + 1! >  - Dual Gigabit LAN Controllers D >  - 802.11g onboard (external antenna, access point/bridge/repeater
 > capable) >  - 8 Channel HD Audio   >  - Coaxial, Optical S/PDIF out >  - 3 Firewire, 8 USB > F > I also have a P4 Extreme Edition Processor 3.4Ghz that is in unknownI > condition.  A user overclocked it and it was running hot, so I replaced  > it and kept it.  >  > E > I know this hardware is heretical, but maybe someone is interested!  >  > Mike   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 09:52:48 -0400 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com>   Subject: Re: DECconnect adaptersI Message-ID: <8660a3a10610210652t2ca7499do401bd0f7c1c86c46@mail.gmail.com>   7 On 19 Oct 2006 21:39:24 -0700, johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com ! <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote:  >  > Tim Sneddon wrote: > > Stanley F. Quayle wrote:? > > > The bad news: you can't buy MMJ sockets anywhere anymore.  > > >  > > C > > They must be around somewhere. Telstra (Australian Telecom) use @ > > them on the power supplies for a large number of their fixed > > line phones. > >  > > Regards, Tim.  > >  > > --A > > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com  > > > You probably have to be a big user and order directly from aC > manufacturer.  The companies selling new cables certainly must be E > getting them from somewhere.  You just can't get "small" quantities  > like 100's from anyone.  >  > 	 Nonsense.   D I know of a company in Raleigh, NC USA that will build you 1 or 1000
 of something.    http://goconnect-it.com/  D I personally recommend them- they're honest and nice people to boot.  A If you should order anything from them, tell George I said hello.    WWWebb --   Ajilon Consulting  Site resident at Quest Diagnostics = first.x.last@f$edit(contents of previous line,"COMPRESS").com    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2006 08:24:56 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>   Subject: Re: DECconnect adaptersA Message-ID: <1161444295.912315.38500@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    William Webb wrote: 9 > On 19 Oct 2006 21:39:24 -0700, johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com # > <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote:  > >  > > Tim Sneddon wrote: > > > Stanley F. Quayle wrote:A > > > > The bad news: you can't buy MMJ sockets anywhere anymore.  > > > >  > > > E > > > They must be around somewhere. Telstra (Australian Telecom) use B > > > them on the power supplies for a large number of their fixed > > > line phones. > > >  > > > Regards, Tim.  > > >  > > > --C > > > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com  > > @ > > You probably have to be a big user and order directly from aE > > manufacturer.  The companies selling new cables certainly must be G > > getting them from somewhere.  You just can't get "small" quantities  > > like 100's from anyone.  > >  > >  > Nonsense.  > F > I know of a company in Raleigh, NC USA that will build you 1 or 1000 > of something.  >  > http://goconnect-it.com/ > F > I personally recommend them- they're honest and nice people to boot. > C > If you should order anything from them, tell George I said hello.  >  > WWWebb > -- > Ajilon Consulting  > Site resident at > Quest Diagnostics ? > first.x.last@f$edit(contents of previous line,"COMPRESS").com   F You misunderstand.  What I was meaning was that  just can't go to yourE neighborhood Radio Shack, CompUSA, MicroCenter, BestBuy, etc and pick C up a bag of 10, 50 or 100 MMJ plugs anymore (I know at one time the G local MicroCenter had them - not now).  I did just look and you can get B them from Digi-Key in singles or quantities.  They even still sellD crimpers and dies. They do not, however, sell the jacks you plug theE cable into, which was the point of Mr. Quayle.  My point was that the F various companies like Stonewall Cable, BlackBox and GoConnect must beG able to get them and they probably have to go directly to manufacturers E like Molex, Tyco, etc and order 10K or so to get them.  But you and I A and anyone else looking to build a couple connectors from scratch 8 aren't going to be able to get any from a normal source.     John H. Reinhardt    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:17:48 +0200 # From: "H Vlems" <hvlems@freenet.de> 1 Subject: Re: Digital Server 5305 hardware problem 5 Message-ID: <ehcofk$2jnb$1@registered.motzarella.org>   / "John Santos" <john@egh.com> schreef in bericht  news:74e_g.63$bb.51@trnddc03... ! > johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:  > > H Vlems wrote: > > J > >>I have a spare Digital Server 5305. It didn't have memory nor cpu's or other L > >>peripherals. Just the main board, empty memory riser boards and a floppy and J > >>CDrom. BTW the 5305 is *very* similar to an Alpha Server 1200. Its box is > >>white, not blue.K > >>I powered it up and after about a minute it powered itself off. Assumed  thatJ > >>had to do owing to not having cpu's nor memory so I bought two similar 5/400 ; > >>boards and 192 MB memory (three pairs). Same behaviour.  > >>2 > >>1) the display is dead, does not show anything6 > >>2) the IOD1 led on the main board does not turn on > >>3 > >>Ansy ideas what might be wrong with the system?  > >> > >>Hans Vlems > >  > >  > > Hi Hans, > >  > > Random thoughts: > > H > >   Did you acquire it in this condition?  If so, it might be that theJ > > main board is bad and the previous owner stripped anything of use from > > the system.  > > I > >   Other than that I'd check out the power supplies.  In my experience H > > with this type of system (I have a 5305 and a UWS plus a "parts" UWSJ > > like yours), the behavior mentioned makes me think that it's some sort > > of power or fan problem. > E > I bought a second CPU for our AlphaServer 1200 last spring on Ebay. D > When I installed it, it acted exactly like this.  It didn't have a@ > fan mounted on the CPU (like our original one has), so I triedG > moving the fan from the original board to the new one, no difference. > > It acted the same in either slot, either with or without the > original CPU.  > A > So I put the original CPU back in (with its fan) and let it be.  > I > Three months later, in July, it started crashing a lot (original CPU)), H > and HP determined it was a fan.  All the fans appeared to be spinning,C > but apparently one was dying; they replaced the fan, and its been B > fine ever since.  (This was one of the cabinet fans, not the fan > mounted on the CPU.) > B > Maybe the "new" CPU was more sensitive to the dying fan than theD > original one?  I'll have to try it again.  I'll report if it works; > now.  Probably will need to find another CPU fan, though.  > C > But the bottom line is a dying fan that appears to be working can B > definitely cause problems.  (The AS1200 is basically the same as > a DS5305, IIRC.) >  > > I > >   Double check all the power supply cables connections for tightness. J > > Make sure both are getting AC power (there may be two P/S but they are( > > NOT redundant - both are necessary). > > I > >   Maybe the switch that senses the case being closed is faulty.  It's H > > on the top, in between the CD drive bay and the 2nd half-height bay. > > J > >   Have you watched the OCP display during power up?  There should be aH > > mini display of the internal startup process.  That could give you a& > > hint as to where the problem lies. > I > Good hints to remember while working on mine, too.  (I was able to hold F > down the cover switch with a screw driver while testing, worked okayB > with the good CPU, but it was easy to slip, which would cause anD > instant power-off.  Lots of crashes while booting as a result, but9 > of course, the "bad" CPU never got even as far as >>>.)  >  >  > >  > > John H. Reinhardt  > >  John,   G that's interesting. I tried to move the cpu-fan manually and it did not L rotate freely. The other fan rotates without any resitance at all so that is? for sure a problem. No I do hope that it didn't fry the cpu....    Hans   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:37:26 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG$ Subject: Re: DS10L to a good home...0 Message-ID: <00A5D874.99CC8FDA@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Q In article <GQb_g.586$A27.383@trnddc08>, "Hal Kuff" <HalKuff@Verizon.Net> writes:  >  > L >Richard, good that you did...!  SPAM filter perhaps,, send me your address , >again at work and I'll do better than that.    4 I sent you emails too... several.  Did you get them?   --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2006 08:52:56 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>= Subject: Re: Heads up: La Fiorina's book coming out next week C Message-ID: <1161445976.433191.256120@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > AEF wrote:J > > Someone who has an immediate problem with VMS isn't interested in thatH > > moment about long term concerns. I help them with that. You claim toD > > help with the longer term viability issues. What's the big deal? > G > The long term growth of VMS affects us all. It is only through growth E > that the owner of VMS will continue to fund development. It is only A > through growth and success that ISVs will gain interest in VMS.   ' Yes, of course. I never said otherwise.    > F > Does that affect you and me ? You bet. VMS may have a most excellent@ > kernel, but that is of no use to any users. What is of use areJ > APPLICATIONS. Whether they are provided by the owner of VMS (such as theJ > TPU editor, undevelopped since last century) or by 3rd parties  (Oracle,0 > SAP (not on VMS) etc etc. That is what counts. > F > But for ~modern~ applications to exsit on VMS, the owner of VMS must; > show signs that motivate ISVs to port their wares to VMS.  > G > Remember that VMS had gone thorugh a period of Palmer telling ISVs to F > STOP porting to VMS, then the confusion dure to Compaq takeover, theB > nearly mortal wounding because of Alpha genocide, and now the HPI > destroying the high quality support organisation that had made VMS such * > a great asset to its owners in the past.  C My statements in recent posts have been misinterpreted, and in some D cases, distorted by others. I'll try to be as clear as I can without@ spending an inordinate amount of time on it. If I was unclear orC ambiguous before, I apologize and I'll try to set it straight here.   * Posts on comp.os.vms fall into categories:  F 1.) Someone is running VMS and has a problem. Something broke, or they9 can't get something to work, and they're asking for help.   B 2.) VMS and its platforms in the context of all other software andE hardware. (I'm including here the Carly/Curly/Alphacide/Itanium story  and similar topics.)  ? 3.) Computer-related issues, like password length, that are not  peculiar to VMS.  G 4.) Totally off-topic stuff, like the Middle East, Star Wars, the price  of tea in China.  " No. 1 I consider totally on-topic.  @ No. 2 I consider somewhat off-topic. Yes, it's important, but itE involves other things besides VMS, hence the word 'somewhat'. I'm not E saying no. 2 doesn't belong in the newsgroup. But clearly it involves A things other than VMS. Hence, the word, *somewhat*. Don't confuse D 'somewhat' with 'totally', OK? I have no problem with people postingF no. 2 (no pun intended!!! :-) :-) :-) as long as it doesn't spiral out# of control, as it does on occasion.   C No. 3 I consider somewhat off-topic, but it is still related, and I F have no problem with such threads in this newsgroup, again, as long as! it doesn't spiral out of control.   D No. 4 is totally off-topic and many argue should never appear in theF newsgroup. Fine, but it sometimes comes up and many jump in anyway andG only a few protest (and only occasionally) and life goes on. I actually F like an occasional off-topic thread because going to the "appropriate"F group usually means discussing (or arguing!) with, well, people of far> less caliber than those who post here in comp.os.vms. Still, ID understand those who still feel No. 4 has no place in the newsgroup.  D Now, back to Mr. Todd. I was saying that his posts primarily fall inE category no. 2 while I mostly post stuff belonging to category no. 1, G and sometimes the other three categories. I'm not chiding him for that. D I am simply saying that to point out that since he seems to not careG much about category no. 1, he probably hasn't (don't confuse 'probably' F with 'definitely'!) read most of my posts. So I think it is unfair forB him to generalize about my posts based on having read only a smallF percentage of mine from mostly only one of the four categories. Yet heF accuses me of similar things!!! Anyway, maybe he *has* read most of myA posts. Regardless, despite the fact that I agree with him on some A things, his opinion of me is likely to remain poor no matter what C happens. I could win a Nobel prize and it wouldn't change his mind. F Fine. Oh, one more thing: A lot of the discussion got into nitpicking,E and I won't waste any more time on nitpicking. If I was unclear about B anything, I'll be happy to clarify. (Yes, I shouldn't have been soG harsh about him adding "always" out of nowhere. I should have just said E that I didn't say "always" and then continue on with commentary about  what he did say.)   G As for saving VMS, his philosophy seems to be to destroy it to save it. B I disagree with that. Fine. (I'm tempted to digress on this, but IB won't!) As for posts in no. 1 not helping save VMS, I disagree. IfF people can't get their problems solved when using systems running VMS,? they are more likely to switch to another OS. Having a (mostly) B friendly forum with many fine, intelligent people willing to spendD their own valuable time helping people they don't even know is a bigG plus for VMS and I am more than happy to help when I can. All the posts 2 from no. 2 probably make little difference anyway.  C Oh, BTW, I am very flattered that Mr. Todd (and some others) are so C worried that my posts will be highly influential that they feel the D need to flame me severely when they see me post something they don't> like! Thank you Mr. Todd. I've not had a spectacular record ofD convincing people of anything, but some, like you, are worried I do!  E Mr. Todd claims to be competent and to have his facts straight. Well, D at least once he made a major blunder. He posted that Israel startedC the Yom Kippur war of 1973. So much for fact-checking. This is like = stating that 2 plus 3 equals -98 and not stepping back before D continuing to say, "Hmmm, that doesn't seem right". (I can't bear toG write such a blunder with actual plus, minus, and equal signs.) Is this C quote out of context? I just checked. In context, this statement is D even worse because he drew a very strong, very damning, yet invalid, conclusion from it.   B Anyway, I think Mr. Todd is probably very knowledgeable about manyD things he writes about, like when it comes to CPU's and such. (And IC refrain from posting about CPU speeds and such because I don't know D much about that.) However, I think less so with *some* (note, that'sB *some*, not *all*, well, make that *most*) of his politics and hisF opinion of my posts. I actually enjoy reading his posts when he sticksE to CPU's and such. Too bad I won't be reading them for quite a while.   F As for Star Wars: Mr. Todd says I am wrong to bash Star Wars I becauseE I haven't seen it. Well, I haven't been to Antarctica in July (or any E other month), and I haven't dipped my arm in a vat of sulphuric acid, B but I think I have sufficient basis to know that these aren't goodF ideas!!! I've heard and read a lot about the recent Star Wars stuff --A enough to know I wouldn't enjoy it. Besides, maybe 2/3 of the way F through Return of the Jedi, I suddenly wished I hadn't come to see theA movie and haven't cared much about Star Wars since. And I've read D reviews of episodes I through III. I've talked to people who've seenG these movies and I think it is highly likely that I wouldn't like them, C esp. episode I. Even Star Wars fans will, perhaps grudgingly, admit E that Star Wars I is not very good. Maybe Mr. Todd is simply trying to E trick me into going to see Star Wars I. Well, if so, I'm not going to  fall for it!!! :-)  D And Mr. Todd says he's read enough of my posts to pass judgement butC that I haven't learned enough about Star Wars to judge that. Hmmmm.   E As for Ellison being trustworthy: His argument is that Ellison is not G always right. Well, *no one* is always right. But let's say Mr. Todd is E just saying that he doesn't think Ellison's opinions mean much. Fine. C But many do, and I was just using him to support my opinion. If you G don't care much for Ellison, fine. But I do agree with him on this. And B I really didn't at first. I saw him speak before V and VI came outG (well, certainly before VI) and still went to see them (or just VI) but / after seeing VI I now see things Ellison's way.   9 Even so, for many, the Star Wars movies provide excellent E entertainment. That's fine. I just want no part of it. And I think it C is silly to take them so seriously as Mr. Todd did with his "thinly  veiled references" remark.  A Thanks to all the fine people who have contributed so much useful  knowledge to this forum!   AEF    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:01:20 -0400 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> . Subject: Re: Innovative use of DSSI cabinets !I Message-ID: <8660a3a10610210701j1fe641ffvc9e5babe24b8fe8e@mail.gmail.com>   ; On 10/20/06, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote: J > Today is a true automnal day here in montreal. lots of rain, temperatureI > just above freezing, and periods where the precipitation is in the form  > of very wet snow.  > + > Your running shoes are all wet and cold ?  > F > No problem... just put then on the side of the DSSI cabinet. Lots ofH > nice warm air flowing out of there all the time, making your shoes dry' > and toasty warm in no time at all !!!  > J > Kudos to those Digital cabinet engineers :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)	 > :-) ;-)  > 	 Automnal?   ? (I collect good typographical errors. Automnal- The seasons are = changing without any manual intervention.  My favorite one is % hypocracy- government by hypocrites.)   G You should stand behind a rack of blades (turns head, spits on ground).   A *Even in a datacenter* the heat *those* things put out would make 1 you think about baking cookies or making popcorn.    WWWebb   --   Ajilon Consulting  Site resident at Quest Diagnostics = first.x.last@f$edit(contents of previous line,"COMPRESS").com    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2006 10:21:48 -0700  From: "greco" <grecot@gmail.com> Subject: Re: LAN failover B Message-ID: <1161451308.122566.113950@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>   Volker,   F you're are right to the ARP enviroment, but in this case, is there anyD detailed documentation besides System's Manager Vol 2, detailing LAN Failover in OpenVMS?  E I'm plugged into two Cisco different switches, it might me related to / arp-cache in the Cisco switches as well, right?   > In case of failover does LAN failover shouldn't send arp-whoisB broadcast to switches so new ARP address be automatically updated?   Cheers,    Volker Halle wrote: , > Here is a theory on what may be happening: > H > Your DS25 LAN interfaces are probably connected to LAN switches, maybeG > even to different ones. The switch(es) need(s) to learn, that the MAC H > address of the LAN failover device is now active on a different switch > port.  > D > The first ethernet packet being sent from the DS25 via the new LANI > device (after the failover) should teach the switch which port this MAC  > address is on now. > I > If PING is using the MAC address from the local ARP cache on the remote C > node and is sending the ICMP packet directly to the DS25 LLA0 MAC C > address, the switch will probably forward the packet to the - now % > inactive - LAN device on your DS25.  > D > If PING would not be using the ARP cache entry (try an arp -d ds25E > before the PING ds25), it would send an ARP who-is broadcast, which E > should also be delivered to the new LAN device and it should reply, 8 > teaching the switch the new port for this MAC address. > 	 > Volker.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 15:13:28 +0200 # From: "H Vlems" <hvlems@freenet.de>  Subject: Mylex question 5 Message-ID: <ehd69f$2tak$1@registered.motzarella.org>   G The Digital Server 5305 now firmly believes it's an Alpha Server 5/400. * It has 192 MB memory and 7 internal disks.K As it happens, this system has a split bus and I put in a Mylex DAC960 RAID ( controller, with one internal SCSI port.G The firmware recognizes the DAC960 but takes a long time in polling it.  No disks are "visible":    P00>>>sh devA polling ncr0 (NCR 53C810) slot 1, bus 0 PCI, hose 1 SCSI Bus ID 7 + dka100.1.0.1.1 DKA100 SEAGATE ST31230N HPM4   dka500.5.0.1.1 DKA500 RRD47 1206+ polling floppy0 (FLOPPY) PCEB - XBUS hose 0  dva0.0.0.1000.0 DVA0 RX23 6 polling dac0 (Mylex DAC960 ) slot 3, bus 0 PCI, hose 0, process show 00000072 freeing a null pointerE polling isp0 (QLogic ISP10X0) slot 1, bus 2 PCI, hose 0 SCSI Bus ID 7 " dkb0.0.0.2001.0 DKB0 RZ1DF-CB 0371& dkb100.1.0.2001.0 DKB100 RZ2DC-PA 5520& dkb200.2.0.2001.0 DKB200 RZ2DC-PA 55206 dkb300.3.0.2001.0 DKB300 QUANTUM VIKING II 4.5SCA 5520; polling tulip0 (DECchip 21040-AA) slot 0, bus 2 PCI, hose 0 . ewa0.0.0.2000.0 00-00-F8-23-6E-27 Twisted-Pair P00>>>  : The question (of course) is: how do I configure the Mylex?- I have neither software nor documentation :-(    Hans   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 09:56:38 -0400 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com>  Subject: Re: Mylex question I Message-ID: <8660a3a10610210656u4791aab4t374ba4bc70542fff@mail.gmail.com>   / On 10/21/06, H Vlems <hvlems@freenet.de> wrote: I > The Digital Server 5305 now firmly believes it's an Alpha Server 5/400. , > It has 192 MB memory and 7 internal disks.M > As it happens, this system has a split bus and I put in a Mylex DAC960 RAID * > controller, with one internal SCSI port.I > The firmware recognizes the DAC960 but takes a long time in polling it.  > No disks are "visible":  >  > P00>>>sh devC > polling ncr0 (NCR 53C810) slot 1, bus 0 PCI, hose 1 SCSI Bus ID 7 - > dka100.1.0.1.1 DKA100 SEAGATE ST31230N HPM4 " > dka500.5.0.1.1 DKA500 RRD47 1206- > polling floppy0 (FLOPPY) PCEB - XBUS hose 0  > dva0.0.0.1000.0 DVA0 RX23 8 > polling dac0 (Mylex DAC960 ) slot 3, bus 0 PCI, hose 0. > process show 00000072 freeing a null pointerG > polling isp0 (QLogic ISP10X0) slot 1, bus 2 PCI, hose 0 SCSI Bus ID 7 $ > dkb0.0.0.2001.0 DKB0 RZ1DF-CB 0371( > dkb100.1.0.2001.0 DKB100 RZ2DC-PA 5520( > dkb200.2.0.2001.0 DKB200 RZ2DC-PA 55208 > dkb300.3.0.2001.0 DKB300 QUANTUM VIKING II 4.5SCA 5520= > polling tulip0 (DECchip 21040-AA) slot 0, bus 2 PCI, hose 0 0 > ewa0.0.0.2000.0 00-00-F8-23-6E-27 Twisted-Pair > P00>>> > < > The question (of course) is: how do I configure the Mylex?/ > I have neither software nor documentation :-(  >  > Hans >  >  > F You have to boot from the ARC console and run a configuration utility.B Also, there are only certain firmware versions that work with VMS.  A I know this, but was unable to make it work from VMS.  I ended up C pulling mine out and configuring it from a W2K box, then putting it  back in the PW433.  G I don't use it any more, as my RAIDsets were composed of six 4GB disks, J and those, in a BA35x shelf, are barely worth the electricity for the size of what you get..    WWWebb --   Ajilon Consulting  Site resident at Quest Diagnostics = first.x.last@f$edit(contents of previous line,"COMPRESS").com    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:04:46 GMT " From: "Scott" <moe__green@msn.com> Subject: Re: Mylex question , Message-ID: <Oqs_g.167404$5R2.904@pd7urf3no>  M I used the utilities from here to configure the DAC960 in my Digital HX 6000   Intel based server. M http://www.ncr.com/support/support_drivers_patches.asp?Class=pc_library_mylex P They are not Alpha tools so you will have to put the card in a Intel machine to 
 configure it.   / "H Vlems" <hvlems@freenet.de> wrote in message  / news:ehd69f$2tak$1@registered.motzarella.org... I > The Digital Server 5305 now firmly believes it's an Alpha Server 5/400. , > It has 192 MB memory and 7 internal disks.M > As it happens, this system has a split bus and I put in a Mylex DAC960 RAID * > controller, with one internal SCSI port.I > The firmware recognizes the DAC960 but takes a long time in polling it.  > No disks are "visible":  >  > P00>>>sh devC > polling ncr0 (NCR 53C810) slot 1, bus 0 PCI, hose 1 SCSI Bus ID 7 - > dka100.1.0.1.1 DKA100 SEAGATE ST31230N HPM4 " > dka500.5.0.1.1 DKA500 RRD47 1206- > polling floppy0 (FLOPPY) PCEB - XBUS hose 0  > dva0.0.0.1000.0 DVA0 RX23 8 > polling dac0 (Mylex DAC960 ) slot 3, bus 0 PCI, hose 0. > process show 00000072 freeing a null pointerG > polling isp0 (QLogic ISP10X0) slot 1, bus 2 PCI, hose 0 SCSI Bus ID 7 $ > dkb0.0.0.2001.0 DKB0 RZ1DF-CB 0371( > dkb100.1.0.2001.0 DKB100 RZ2DC-PA 5520( > dkb200.2.0.2001.0 DKB200 RZ2DC-PA 55208 > dkb300.3.0.2001.0 DKB300 QUANTUM VIKING II 4.5SCA 5520= > polling tulip0 (DECchip 21040-AA) slot 0, bus 2 PCI, hose 0 0 > ewa0.0.0.2000.0 00-00-F8-23-6E-27 Twisted-Pair > P00>>> > < > The question (of course) is: how do I configure the Mylex?/ > I have neither software nor documentation :-(  >  > Hans >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2006 08:28:14 -0700' From: "bclaremont" <msi1@earthlink.net>   Subject: Re: OpenVMS over VMWareA Message-ID: <1161444494.866355.47460@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   H > Windows X64 -> CHARON-AXP Alpha/VMS -> SIMH VAX/VMS -> SIMH PDP11 RSTS  A That's cool.  Which specific O/S and what hardware were you using  (CPU(s) & Memory)?   Bruce Claremont  www.MigrationSpecialties.com OpenVMS Stealth Marketing Squad    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Oct 2006 23:36:40 -0700 From: jrmorrisnc@gmail.com( Subject: Unix admin needs some pointers.C Message-ID: <1161412600.510296.138270@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>    Hello,  D I've recently inherited a Alpha system running OpenVMS... I'm a UnixC admin, and this is in production for mission critical applications.   D I have an old DEC VMS User Guide, and google, and of course a lot of? mindset and skills highly relevant to Unix systems and probably  detrimental on VMS systems.   C I need pointers to a crash course in VMS administration. Or a book, C books, etc. I am a recent hire and the VMS admin was asked to leave C (despite my recommendations, in fact). What little documentation on G things like backup procedures and so forth tends toward the general and F vague rather than specific and procedural. I was hired as a Unix/LinuxC admin, and at no point did I ever say or did my resume mention VMS. F Probably because I've never worked with it ;-). However, I've also hadG it made abundantly clear to me that that is not a sufficient reason for = any failures to administer this system properly, immediately.   F The help command and some web references have been helpful; I've foundF the search command and how to move to the MFD of physical disks... But* to say I'm at a loss is an understatement.  E One of the problems is backups have to continue properly, and another G is there are many DCL scripts that fire off reports to management about C the system, with the previous admin's e-mail address in them, which D unfortunately the searches I've done have not turned up all of them.C I'm being pressured to resolve that immediately if not sooner but I  have nothing much to go on.   @ I'm needing an overview of things like scheduling, what jobs areE running, auditing and accounting and reports, how things are laid out D (like, where's VMS's /etc & /var equivalents, or how is that sort of thing handled?)...  > I appreciate any advice or help anyone can offer, thanks much!   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 02:24:19 -0500 % From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org> , Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers.5 Message-ID: <slrnejjip3.423.usenet@zappy.catbert.org>   v In article <1161412600.510296.138270@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, jrmorrisnc@gmail.com <jrmorrisnc@gmail.com> wrote: > E > I need pointers to a crash course in VMS administration. Or a book, E > books, etc. I am a recent hire and the VMS admin was asked to leave E > (despite my recommendations, in fact). What little documentation on I > things like backup procedures and so forth tends toward the general and H > vague rather than specific and procedural. I was hired as a Unix/LinuxE > admin, and at no point did I ever say or did my resume mention VMS. H > Probably because I've never worked with it ;-). However, I've also hadI > it made abundantly clear to me that that is not a sufficient reason for ? > any failures to administer this system properly, immediately.   C Okay. VMS shouldn't be too hard to pick up, if you've got the right C mindset for it, and willingness. I learned UNIX and VMS at the same F time, and didn't find one or the other to be that unusually difficult.  @ (VMS was actually easier because of its orthogonal design -- aka5 consistent commands, qualifiers, device naming, etc.)   6 What VMS version are the systems running? To find out:  & $ write sys$output f$getsyi("version")  5 What platform is it on? VAX, Alpha, or Itanium (I64)?   ( $ write sys$output f$getsyi("arch_name")  G You may also want to become familiar with what hardware model it is, in 7 case you later want to ask hardware-specific questions:   & $ write sys$output f$getsyi("hw_name")  B Then you would want to find the documentation for that specific OS0 version. Suppose, for instance, it was for V8.3:  - http://h71000.www7.hp.com/DOC/os83_index.html   H Download the PDF files (or read the HTML files online if you prefer) forF the System Manager Manuals -- both Volume I and II. Might want to read  the OpenVMS User's Manual first?  A The user manual will introduce basic VMS concepts. System manager > manuals will build on that and introduce you to various common administrative tasks.   E The third manual that I highly recommend would be the DCL Dictionary. G The VMS "shell" is DCL (Digital Command Language), which is easy to use H interactively or programmatically. This manual shows how to use built-inF DCL commands, as well as information on the various basic built-in VMS	 commands.   > There are other manuals that covers all sorts of topics... VMSH programming, VMS security, various key VMS applications, VMS text editorD (TPU -- text processing utility), how to install VMS, and many more. Read any of them as needed.   < If this is not for 8.3, you can select other versions of the documentation set.  G Also, on the left hand side of the window are pointers to documentation @ for various LPs (layered products -- aka licensed applications).  @ HELP is very handy. Did you know that you can ask it to give you information on error messages?  $ Example: I enter an invalid command:  
 $ sadfasfasdf F %DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling  \SADFASFASDF\ $    Now, I can ask HELP about it:    $ help/message ivverb A  IVVERB,  unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling   7   Facility:     CLI, Command Language Interpreter (DCL)   K   Explanation:  The first word in the command is not a valid DCL command or M                 a symbol name equated with a command. The rejected portion of =                 the command is displayed between backslashes.   K   User Action:  Check the spelling of the command name or symbol name, then $                 reenter the command.  C Also, if you want to know what are the other lexicals or options to @ lexicals -- I used f$getsyi earlier in an example -- you can do:  
 $ help lex  / Or to find out more information about f$getsyi:    $ help lex f$getsyi : Then * at the next HELP prompt. (or 'help lex f$getsyi *')  D I should also mention there are several places to ask VMS admins andB enthusiasts questions -- some better than others but all are good:   	1. Here in comp.os.vms   * 	2. The official HP ITRC forum (web-based)  2 		http://forums.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/home.do   	3. Public access systems:  1 		EncompasServe (aka DECUServe) -- just telnet to 5 		eisner.encompasserve.org and follow instructions to ) 		get a free account created on the spot.   6 		Deathrow Cluster -- just visit this webpage for more3 		information on their account use policies and how 
 		to get one:   1 		http://deathrow.vistech.net/account-info.shtml    ? You MUST also make a front-to-back reading of the OpenVMS FAQ a B mandatory reading list item. It's seriously excellent, and I stillH re-read it even to this day. It also has pointers to tons of information( and Q/A's on common issues or questions.   http://h71000.www7.hp.com/faq/  D You should also use the 'Ask the Wizard' forum to search for hits on. keywords you supply or possibly ask questions.  ! http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/   C I would suggest asking questions elsewhere for now instead of there H because its primary maintainer has just left HP about a half day ago andD there is some uncertainty if it will be maintained or at what level.  E You probably want to get at least one VMS system you can feel free to H 'mess around with' without risk. Doing an installation on your own wouldC be a decent learning experience, too. Not just OS installations but 1 application installation and customizations, too.   D I think you'd find a VMS installation much simpler than for UNIX. :)  F One thing that factors into that is the simple fact that there is onlyB one VMS 'distribution', and carefully designed and controlled by aD single entity. Not unlike Apple and MacOS / MacOS X or Microsoft and
 Windows. Etc.   D Does your employer have any additional VAX, Alpha, or Itanium systemF that you can use for this kind of purpose? If not, are they willing to# purchase one for USD $1500 or less?   D If they don't have one and aren't willing to purchase one, you still
 have options:   @ 	1. Buy a cheap but decent EV56 or EV6-based Alpha certified for; 	   OpenVMS compatibility on eBay (PWS 433au, 500au, 600au, < 	   XP1000, DS10L are popular choices here) or from a vendor? 	   known for their VMS knowledge and support: Island Computers  	   (http://www.islandco.com)    	or   > 	2. Run VMS under hardware emulation (of a VAX) under Linux orA 	   Windows. If this is for personal use, SIMH is a free emulator > 	   that's decent. If employer is paying for emulator, go with4 	   CHARON-VAX which is higher performing than SIMH.  F Then... if this is for commercial use, your employer MUST purchase theD licenses needed (base OS license, and any additional layered product
 licenses).  G Otherwise, if it's for personal use, you can get hobbyist licenses from H http://www.openvmshobbyist.org (courtesy of a generous HP program) whichD will supply the license key to install the OS and many applications.  B This will require you sign up for the free Encompass US (NOT to be? confused with EncompasServe -- two very different user groups!) E associate membership. This is a mandatory pre-req to getting the free ? VMS licenses. HP does this so they can track level of interest.   G You can also get install media (CDs, usually) from there for USD $30 or : a discreet request here (or elsewhere) to borrow CD media.; Openvmshobbyist site has information on the entire process.   E There are plenty of information and resources on VMS on the net; just  Google for them. For instance:  0 http://seqvax.caltech.edu/vms_beginners_faq.html  C I'm less familiar with VMS training courses available; someone here E might know more about if these exist and if so, details. I learned by C doing, having been placed in a similar situation as yourself at one  time. :) Did just fine.   G Might feel overwhelming at first but don't worry about that. Just stick 3 to the essentials and one day it'll all make sense.   
 Here's a tip:   D If you have a privileged system manager account of your own, I wouldF highly suggest turning off privileges unless really needed. Safer that( way, especially while learning your way.   $ set proc/priv=(tmpmbx,netmbx)   E Will give yourself the bare minimum useful privileges. You can always ) get full privs back at any time by doing:    $ set proc/priv=all    or  2 $ set proc/priv=(whatever priv, another priv, etc)  @ To see what privs you have right now AND what privs you CAN get:   $ show proc/priv  D BTW, turning privs off is only for duration of your login session or= until you re-enable privs for that login session. So no fear.   D It isn't permanent unless you modify the account's privileges in theC AUTHORIZE utility which modifies the User Authorization File (UAF), D which is the VMS equivalent of UNIX's /etc/passwd, /etc/shadow, etc.  G Anyway, your favorite single manual (in two volumes) will be the System B Manager's manual -- procedural and regarding administrative tasks.   -Dan   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:05:48 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>, Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers.% Message-ID: <wxk_g.80$bb.55@trnddc03>    jrmorrisnc@gmail.com wrote:  > Hello, > F > I've recently inherited a Alpha system running OpenVMS... I'm a UnixE > admin, and this is in production for mission critical applications.  > F > I have an old DEC VMS User Guide, and google, and of course a lot ofA > mindset and skills highly relevant to Unix systems and probably  > detrimental on VMS systems.  > E > I need pointers to a crash course in VMS administration. Or a book,  > books, etc.   A The VMS Doc set is very good, but mostly organized as a reference A rather than a tutorial.  A hard copy set is very handy, but it is @ also available on the web at <http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/doc/>  : Also the FAQ is very useful at <www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq>  H A good book is "OpenVMS System Management Guide" by Baldwin, Hoffman and< Miller.  (Steve "Hoff" Hoffman and David Miller are frequent@ contributers here.)  There also seems to be a new revision of an> older book "Getting Started with OpenVMS System Management" byB Miller (Though Amazon is a little confusing about this because the@ excerpts say it is precursor to the System Management Guide, and? mention a forth-coming 2nd edition of the the SMG, but that was > published about 3-4 years ago, and Amazon claims this book was> published in Aug 2006!  There's a time warp here somewhere...)  ? Amazon has both, should be easy to find.  (I only own the SMG).   = Parsec, Bruden, and maybe others offer VMS courses, including  system management courses.  = The VMS Boot Camp (at HP, next one is next spring), is a good > crash course, according to attendees, but may be more oriented& to developers than to system managers.  7 I am a recent hire and the VMS admin was asked to leave E > (despite my recommendations, in fact). What little documentation on I > things like backup procedures and so forth tends toward the general and H > vague rather than specific and procedural. I was hired as a Unix/LinuxE > admin, and at no point did I ever say or did my resume mention VMS. H > Probably because I've never worked with it ;-). However, I've also hadI > it made abundantly clear to me that that is not a sufficient reason for ? > any failures to administer this system properly, immediately.  > H > The help command and some web references have been helpful; I've foundH > the search command and how to move to the MFD of physical disks... But, > to say I'm at a loss is an understatement. > G > One of the problems is backups have to continue properly, and another I > is there are many DCL scripts that fire off reports to management about E > the system, with the previous admin's e-mail address in them, which F > unfortunately the searches I've done have not turned up all of them.E > I'm being pressured to resolve that immediately if not sooner but I  > have nothing much to go on.  > B > I'm needing an overview of things like scheduling, what jobs areG > running, auditing and accounting and reports, how things are laid out F > (like, where's VMS's /etc & /var equivalents, or how is that sort of > thing handled?)...  A There's a system directory tree (or actually two or more parallel B trees.)  There is a common root at sys$sysdevice:[vms$common], and> a system specific root at sys$sysdevice:[sysN], where N is theB cluster node number.  (For a stand-alone system, N is normally 0.)G To confuse matters a little, the common root directory, vms$common.dir, > is entered in all the sysN directories under a different name,E syscommon.dir, so for example DKA0:[VMS$COMMON] is the same directory = as DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON].  Kind of like a hard link in Unix.)   B There are logical names for most of the various useful directoriesC in the system tree which are usually two-item search lists pointing F first to the node-specific directory and then to the common directory.C For example, the system manager's home directory (default directory D for the SYSTEM account) is sys$manager, which is a logical name thatA ultimate resolves to [sysN.sysmgr] and [vms$common.sysmgr] on the A system disk.  This is where many system startup and configuration @ files live (since the system startup process runs under SYSTEM.)  ; Other directories of note are sys$system ([sysN.sysexe] and E [vms$common.sysexe]) where most system executables (utility programs, > compilers, etc.) live, sys$loadable_images ([sysN.sys$ldr] andB [vms$common.sys$ldr]) where the O/S itself and drivers are stored,E and sys$library ([*.syslib]) where object and runtime libraries live.   F /var would probably be closest to sys$manager, and /etc to sys$system,B I guess, but lots of sys$system things would be stored in /sbin orE /bin on a typical Unix system.  There isn't really a 1-for-1 mapping.   D "$ help sys_files" has an enormous list of directories and the filesE they contain which helps a lot with identifying or finding particular  things.      > @ > I appreciate any advice or help anyone can offer, thanks much! >    You're welcome!    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 04:09:44 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> , Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers., Message-ID: <4539D5AF.4204B894@teksavvy.com>   jrmorrisnc@gmail.com wrote: ; > I need pointers to a crash course in VMS administration.     http://www.hp.com/go/vms/doc  M I think there are some PDF manuals for system management general information.     E To get an idea of what the particular system is like, study carefully  what is done in:   SYS$MANAGER:SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM  SYS$MANAGER:SYLOGICALS.COM   $MC SYSMAN STARTUP SHOW FILE  H This gives you a good idea of what happens during startup of your systemG and what logicals are defined, how disks are mounted, what applications  are initialised etc etc.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2006 02:23:48 -0700) From: "Bob Gezelter" <gezelter@rlgsc.com> , Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers.B Message-ID: <1161422628.182783.43010@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   jrmorrisnc@gmail.com wrote:  > Hello, > H > The help command and some web references have been helpful; I've foundH > the search command and how to move to the MFD of physical disks... But, > to say I'm at a loss is an understatement. > G > One of the problems is backups have to continue properly, and another I > is there are many DCL scripts that fire off reports to management about E > the system, with the previous admin's e-mail address in them, which F > unfortunately the searches I've done have not turned up all of them.E > I'm being pressured to resolve that immediately if not sooner but I  > have nothing much to go on.  > B > I'm needing an overview of things like scheduling, what jobs areG > running, auditing and accounting and reports, how things are laid out F > (like, where's VMS's /etc & /var equivalents, or how is that sort of > thing handled?)... > @ > I appreciate any advice or help anyone can offer, thanks much!  F > I've recently inherited a Alpha system running OpenVMS... I'm a UnixE > admin, and this is in production for mission critical applications.  > F > I have an old DEC VMS User Guide, and google, and of course a lot ofA > mindset and skills highly relevant to Unix systems and probably  > detrimental on VMS systems.  > E > I need pointers to a crash course in VMS administration. Or a book, E > books, etc. I am a recent hire and the VMS admin was asked to leave E > (despite my recommendations, in fact). What little documentation on I > things like backup procedures and so forth tends toward the general and H > vague rather than specific and procedural. I was hired as a Unix/LinuxE > admin, and at no point did I ever say or did my resume mention VMS. H > Probably because I've never worked with it ;-). However, I've also hadI > it made abundantly clear to me that that is not a sufficient reason for ? > any failures to administer this system properly, immediately.  >  jrmorrisnc,   ! Welcome to the OpenVMS community.   G I will try not to rehash what has already been said in this thread, but  will highlight some points.   E It may be obvious, but if learning system admin on a mission-critical = system, I concur strongly with the suggestion to either get a E inexpensive "guinea pig" system (small Alpha systems can be had for a G couple of hundred dollars; a quite usable system can have only a couple F of hundred meganbytes of RAM and a couple of GB of disk; for example aE DS10 or DS10L; these can be had on EBay, or from used dealers such as < Island Computer). Even after 25 years of working with systemD management, I prefer to check things on one of my test boxes than to? test things on client production systems. If you cannot get the C hardware, there are software emulators that can be used to create a  simulated environment.  A Disabling your privileges by default, and only enabling them when 9 needed, is an extremely good idea. It prevents accidents.   C If you are more than a few versions behind the current version, you D will likely need to find your distribution kit, which should include# the manuals on CDROM in PDF format.   G There is also an excellent book by the late John Wisniewski, "Linux and E OpenVMS Interoperability" which you may find useful for comparing the  *IX systems and OpenVMS.  C As to finding where the administrative reports are going, there are  several possibilities:E - Do a SHO LOGICAL command, look to see if the former administrator's 5 email address shows up as the value of a logical name F - Do a MAIL command. In MAIL, do a SHOW FORWARD/USERS=ALL Check if the: old administrator's email address shows up in any of these  ; In addition to the newsgroup, there is also OpenVMS.org (at F http://www.OpenVMS.org where I am a Contributing Editor), and the ITRC Forum operated by HP (atG http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/familyhome.do?familyId=288 ).   $ - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:30:35 +0000 (UTC) 1 From: John F <forkosh@pleaseSeeSigForAddress.com> , Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers., Message-ID: <ehcssb$hcu$1@reader2.panix.com>   jrmorrisnc@gmail.com wrote:  : Hello, : F : I've recently inherited a Alpha system running OpenVMS... I'm a UnixE : admin, and this is in production for mission critical applications.  : F : I have an old DEC VMS User Guide, and google, and of course a lot ofA : mindset and skills highly relevant to Unix systems and probably  : detrimental on VMS systems.  : E : I need pointers to a crash course in VMS administration. Or a book, E : books, etc. I am a recent hire and the VMS admin was asked to leave E : (despite my recommendations, in fact). What little documentation on I : things like backup procedures and so forth tends toward the general and H : vague rather than specific and procedural. I was hired as a Unix/LinuxE : admin, and at no point did I ever say or did my resume mention VMS. H : Probably because I've never worked with it ;-). However, I've also hadI : it made abundantly clear to me that that is not a sufficient reason for ? : any failures to administer this system properly, immediately.  : H : The help command and some web references have been helpful; I've foundH : the search command and how to move to the MFD of physical disks... But, : to say I'm at a loss is an understatement. : G : One of the problems is backups have to continue properly, and another I : is there are many DCL scripts that fire off reports to management about E : the system, with the previous admin's e-mail address in them, which F : unfortunately the searches I've done have not turned up all of them.E : I'm being pressured to resolve that immediately if not sooner but I  : have nothing much to go on.  : B : I'm needing an overview of things like scheduling, what jobs areG : running, auditing and accounting and reports, how things are laid out F : (like, where's VMS's /etc & /var equivalents, or how is that sort of : thing handled?)... : @ : I appreciate any advice or help anyone can offer, thanks much!   See s http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=672057&admit=-682735245+1161424795487+28353475 G for a similar request, and some more answers in addition to those here. B I'd second the idea that  show/que sys$batch  should help you findF the scripts used as "cron jobs" that "fire off reports to management", etc.  F However, although Unix and VMS (and, I suppose, all operating systems)C are ultimately similar at a sufficient level of abstraction, you're B going to need some initial hand-holding to manage an unfamiliar osF in a production environment "immediately if not sooner."  Without thatF kind of help, something bad will happen sooner or later that you can't@ handle in a timely fashion, especially if you've been reduced toF newsgroup postings as your only recourse.  Hire back that VMS sysadminG as a consultant, if you possibly can, for a month or so, to familiarize I you with the environment at your installation.  If not, hire a consultant D already familiar with VMS for that same purpose.  That's really yourC only "due diligence" option if you're trying to run a business with I mission-critical VMS applications, and you know nothing at all about VMS.  --  > John Forkosh  ( mailto:  j@f.com  where j=john and f=forkosh )   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:58:35 +0000 (UTC) . From: Dale Dellutri <ddelQQQlutr@panQQQix.com>, Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers., Message-ID: <ehd21a$t54$1@reader2.panix.com>  : On 20 Oct 2006 23:36:40 -0700, jrmorrisnc@gmail.com wrote:F > I've recently inherited a Alpha system running OpenVMS... I'm a UnixE > admin, and this is in production for mission critical applications.   F > I have an old DEC VMS User Guide, and google, and of course a lot ofA > mindset and skills highly relevant to Unix systems and probably  > detrimental on VMS systems.   E > I need pointers to a crash course in VMS administration. Or a book, 
 > books, etc.  >...  > Try a google search for translations between what you know and what you need to know:   unix vms OR openvms D will show lots of translators.  Some are simple command translators,> others have more info like "if I know how to do X in Unix, how do I do it in VMS?".   And there is a book:'   UNIX for OpenVMS Users, Third Edition > it's a little old (2001), but useful.  It might seem backwards3 from what you need, but I think it works both ways.    --  7 Dale Dellutri <ddelQQQlutr@panQQQix.com> (lose the Q's)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:11:56 -0400 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> , Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers.H Message-ID: <8660a3a10610210711v9c5b9f4n657447b83175b5f2@mail.gmail.com>  3 On 20 Oct 2006 23:36:40 -0700, jrmorrisnc@gmail.com  <jrmorrisnc@gmail.com> wrote:  > Hello, > F > I've recently inherited a Alpha system running OpenVMS... I'm a UnixE > admin, and this is in production for mission critical applications.  > F > I have an old DEC VMS User Guide, and google, and of course a lot ofA > mindset and skills highly relevant to Unix systems and probably  > detrimental on VMS systems.  > E > I need pointers to a crash course in VMS administration. Or a book, E > books, etc. I am a recent hire and the VMS admin was asked to leave E > (despite my recommendations, in fact). What little documentation on I > things like backup procedures and so forth tends toward the general and H > vague rather than specific and procedural. I was hired as a Unix/LinuxE > admin, and at no point did I ever say or did my resume mention VMS. H > Probably because I've never worked with it ;-). However, I've also hadI > it made abundantly clear to me that that is not a sufficient reason for ? > any failures to administer this system properly, immediately.  > H > The help command and some web references have been helpful; I've foundH > the search command and how to move to the MFD of physical disks... But, > to say I'm at a loss is an understatement. > G > One of the problems is backups have to continue properly, and another I > is there are many DCL scripts that fire off reports to management about E > the system, with the previous admin's e-mail address in them, which F > unfortunately the searches I've done have not turned up all of them.E > I'm being pressured to resolve that immediately if not sooner but I  > have nothing much to go on.  > B > I'm needing an overview of things like scheduling, what jobs areG > running, auditing and accounting and reports, how things are laid out F > (like, where's VMS's /etc & /var equivalents, or how is that sort of > thing handled?)... > @ > I appreciate any advice or help anyone can offer, thanks much! >  >   H Get David Miller's book "Getting Started with OpenVMS System Management"  : http://www.hp.com/hpbooks/digital_press/dp_1555582818.html  C If you can afford to shell out a little for training, I'd recommend C that you give the folks at MindIQ a call.  In fact, you should call ? them anyway- they're big VMS boosters and might have some other % solutions I may not have thought of..    http://www.mindiq.com   D If what you're running is mission-critical and the bosses don't wantD to shell out for getting you some training, well, I won't comment on that.  Nor should I need to.  D There are  lots of paid consultants out there (myself included), the@ resources of this group, the boards at openvms.org, and at ITRC.  E Welcome to what most of us consider to be the most reliable operating D system on the planet, good luck, and we expect to see you posting in the future.    WWWebb   --   Ajilon Consulting  Site resident at Quest Diagnostics = first.x.last@f$edit(contents of previous line,"COMPRESS").com    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2006 08:18:10 -0700' From: "bclaremont" <msi1@earthlink.net> , Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers.B Message-ID: <1161443890.309909.60780@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>   The Operating System Handbook   " http://www.snee.com/bob/opsys.html   OpenVMS Beginner Link   . http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Beginner  C The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer   A Review: http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=06/04/02/4453076 : Book Link: http://www.logikalsolutions.com/book_intro.html   Hire one of us fine consultants   0 http://www.migrationspecialties.com/OpenVMS.html  
 Best of Luck,    Bruce Claremont  www.MigrationSpecialties.com OpenVMS Stealth Marketing Squad    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2006 08:21:22 -0700' From: "bclaremont" <msi1@earthlink.net> , Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers.C Message-ID: <1161444081.956831.128950@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    The Operating System Handbook   " http://www.snee.com/bob/opsys.html   OpenVMS Beginner Link   . http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Beginner  C The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer   A Review: http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=06/04/02/4453076 : Book Link: http://www.logikalsolutions.com/book_intro.html   Hire one of us fine consultants   0 http://www.migrationspecialties.com/OpenVMS.html   Training   www.brudenossg.com  
 Best of Luck,    Bruce Claremont  www.MigrationSpecialties.com OpenVMS Stealth Marketing Squad    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:14:46 -0400 8 From: Stephen Hoffman <Hoff@HoffmanLabs-RemoveThis-.Org>, Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers.) Message-ID: <ehdh1e$2908$1@pyrite.mv.net>    Dan Foster wrote:   A > You MUST also make a front-to-back reading of the OpenVMS FAQ a D > mandatory reading list item. It's seriously excellent, and I stillJ > re-read it even to this day. It also has pointers to tons of information* > and Q/A's on common issues or questions. >   > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/faq/  B    There is a copy of the OpenVMS FAQ over at www.HoffmanLabs.Org,H and whether it's mirrored at or is hyperlinked from the HP OpenVMS site  is under discussion.  G    The latest copy (September 2006) is posted at HoffmanLabs right now.   H    [An upcoming bit of work here is sorting out a new format for the FAQE sources, and then porting the existing DECdocument source files over  G into that.  DocBook or something else; recommendations for non-WYSIWYG  E document production tools are welcome, and obviously preferably with   native port(s) available.]  F > You should also use the 'Ask the Wizard' forum to search for hits on0 > keywords you supply or possibly ask questions. > # > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/  > E > I would suggest asking questions elsewhere for now instead of there J > because its primary maintainer has just left HP about a half day ago andF > there is some uncertainty if it will be maintained or at what level.  #    The OpenVMS Ask The Wizard area  I (<http:://www.hp.com/go/openvms/wizard/>) has been shut down for several  H years now and has seen minimal changes and updates since then, the ITRC E forums are the defacto replacement for HP-website-based discussions.  F Download the omnibus wizard.zip archive from that area and off you go.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:19:10 -0400 8 From: Stephen Hoffman <Hoff@HoffmanLabs-RemoveThis-.Org>, Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers.) Message-ID: <ehdh9g$2908$2@pyrite.mv.net>    Dale Dellutri wrote:  @ > Try a google search for translations between what you know and > what you need to know: >   unix vms OR openvms F > will show lots of translators.  Some are simple command translators,@ > others have more info like "if I know how to do X in Unix, how > do I do it in VMS?".  F    FWIW, there are command cross-references -- web pages that map the @ commands from various of the shells to and from DCL commands -- H referenced in the OpenVMS FAQ.  If you're up to speed on one or more of G the UNIX shells, these sorts of tables can be useful when you're first  $ getting started with DCL, obviously.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:37:14 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> , Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers.: Message-ID: <XcqdnS7EOs_Z0afYnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@comcast.com>   jrmorrisnc@gmail.com wrote:  > Hello, > F > I've recently inherited a Alpha system running OpenVMS... I'm a UnixE > admin, and this is in production for mission critical applications.  > F > I have an old DEC VMS User Guide, and google, and of course a lot ofA > mindset and skills highly relevant to Unix systems and probably  > detrimental on VMS systems.  > E > I need pointers to a crash course in VMS administration. Or a book, E > books, etc. I am a recent hire and the VMS admin was asked to leave E > (despite my recommendations, in fact). What little documentation on I > things like backup procedures and so forth tends toward the general and H > vague rather than specific and procedural. I was hired as a Unix/LinuxE > admin, and at no point did I ever say or did my resume mention VMS. H > Probably because I've never worked with it ;-). However, I've also hadI > it made abundantly clear to me that that is not a sufficient reason for ? > any failures to administer this system properly, immediately.  > C There are, or used to be, training courses, in DCL, and VMS System  9 Management.  A five day course could give you the basics.   H > The help command and some web references have been helpful; I've foundH > the search command and how to move to the MFD of physical disks... But, > to say I'm at a loss is an understatement. > G > One of the problems is backups have to continue properly, and another I > is there are many DCL scripts that fire off reports to management about E > the system, with the previous admin's e-mail address in them, which F > unfortunately the searches I've done have not turned up all of them.E > I'm being pressured to resolve that immediately if not sooner but I  > have nothing much to go on.  >  $ SEARCH *.COM MAIL H should turn up DCL scripts that mention the word "mail" and that should @ find most of them.   You could put a band-aid on the problem by / forwarding the former admin's mail to yourself.   5 > I'm needing an overview of things like scheduling,    F Scheduling is "SUBMIT /AFTER=<date-time> unless you have a scheduling E package.   CA still sells the old "Polycenter" scheduler but I would  , recommend JAMS from Argent Software instead.    > what jobs are
 > running,   $ SHOW QUEUE /BATCH /ALL  
 > auditing $ HELP SET AUDIT > and accounting $ HELP ACCOUNTING   % >and reports, how things are laid out   F > (like, where's VMS's /etc & /var equivalents, or how is that sort of > thing handled?)...  G Some of the more recent versions of VMS have a [.ETC] directory in the  I SYS$SYSTEM tree but VMS doesn't really have an equivalent.  Most of your  I system management stuff is kept in SYS$MANAGER.  /var is more difficult.  G   MAIL is, by default, kept in the user's home directory.  Spooling is  C handled by the system more or less transparently.  You can use SET  D DEVICE /SPOOLED but I can't seem to recall doing it in the last ten  years or so.  B Don't look too hard for equivalents, there aren't many.   VMS was D designed as a system.  Unix more or less grew without much, if any,  centralized planning.  > @ > I appreciate any advice or help anyone can offer, thanks much! >   F You're welcome.  You can get most questions answered here when people E aren't too busy debating how to properly manage HP, market VMS, "The  8 Decline and Fall of Digital Equipment Corporation", etc.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:10:51 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>C Subject: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server. % Message-ID: <fCk_g.81$bb.66@trnddc03>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:/ > In article <453939E4.8D45DDE1@vaxination.ca>, 3 > 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:  >  >>Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:  >>= >>>Can Cobol be setup to call those cgi functions directly or < >>>does one need C-stubs ? I guess from what you wrote above >>>that C-stube *are* needed.  >>G >>Back in the 1980s, I had COBOL main program call up some C routines.   >>E >>The main bone of contention are strings.  COBOL passes fixed length J >>strings (whether as a pointer to the actually buffer, or as a pointer toJ >>a descriptop which points to the buffer). This means in practice you are@ >>passing around blank padded fixed length strings. C likes null >>terminated strings.  >  > F > Actually, C doesn't care about null terminated strings any more thanI > any other language.  You are free to create arrays of char that contain I > strings in any format you prefer.  All you have to do is write routines G > to deal with them.  It would not be particularly difficult to write a M > library of string functions that did  not allow the dreaded buffer-overrun. H > The only reason I can think of why this has never been done is lack of > interest.  >   F A much more likely reason is that it in fact has been done hundreds ofE times, by hundreds of different programmers, with no standards and no D way to get anyone else to use the same format, and the complete lackC of compiler support makes such packages harder to use for quick and C dirty code, so none of this has ever been adopted by anyone but the  original implementor.       I > And for all of you who feel much more comfortable with Ada, now that we J > know there is no longer a DEC Ada and GNAT is the future, try writting aJ > program with a few strings in it, compile it with GNAT and then pass theL > executable thru the Unix "strings" command.  For those of you not familiarL > with it, it will find and print out the strings in a binary file.  It doesN > this by looking for strings of ASCII that end in a null.  It usually returnsL > a lot of bogus strings cause lots of null terminated ASCII happens by pureK > chance, but it also returns all the real strings.  Why do I mention this? I > Because it will print out all the strings in your Ada program.  Anybody * > want to take a guess at what that means? >  > bill >      --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Oct 2006 14:50:30 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)C Subject: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server. + Message-ID: <4puqdmFk39smU1@individual.net>   . In article <wbf_g.22664$2g4.17411@dukeread09>,& 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:G >> Actually, C doesn't care about null terminated strings any more than J >> any other language.  You are free to create arrays of char that containJ >> strings in any format you prefer.  All you have to do is write routines >> to deal with them.  >  > Not quite true.  > > > The compiler itself generate null terminated char arrays for > string literals.  C And, as I stated later on, so does the Ada compiler.  It is not the A composition of the character array that is the problem, it is the D handling of it.  As I have also stated in the past, MACRO-11 createdA null terminated strings and I am willing to bet it was doing this C before the first C compiler was ported to the PDP-11.  I can't say, D as I have no experience with it, but perhaps someone here can answerF this.  Did the systems prior to the PDP-11 support the Macro DirectiveA .ASCIZ?  Does VAX MACRO?  Do any of them have the .PRINT Macro in A their libraries?  What does it expect as the format for a string?    > J >> And for all of you who feel much more comfortable with Ada, now that weK >> know there is no longer a DEC Ada and GNAT is the future, try writting a K >> program with a few strings in it, compile it with GNAT and then pass the M >> executable thru the Unix "strings" command.  For those of you not familiar M >> with it, it will find and print out the strings in a binary file.  It does O >> this by looking for strings of ASCII that end in a null.  It usually returns M >> a lot of bogus strings cause lots of null terminated ASCII happens by pure L >> chance, but it also returns all the real strings.  Why do I mention this?J >> Because it will print out all the strings in your Ada program.  Anybody+ >> want to take a guess at what that means?  >  > The format is not a C string.  > 1 > The format appears to be (based on a hex dump):  >  > * N bytes 1 > * 0-7 nul bytes padding length to multipla of 8  > * 4 bytes with 1 > * 4 bytes with N  E Sure looks like one to the strings command.  :-)  My point is that it D is not the constitution of the string that causes the problem, it isE the way the string is handled by the language.  As I stated, there is E nothing in the world stopping people from changing that constitutes a I "string" in C.  You can easily use the UCSD definition and make the first E byte (or more, depending on the size limitation you want to impose) a D length indicator and then write replacements for the standard stringC manipulation routines to deal with them.  Or use the VMS Descriptor B concept with the same requirement for new routines.  The source toF numerous C compilers are available.  One could easily make all of thisM totally transparent to the developer.  Why has it not been done?  Apparently,  not enough people really care.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 21 Oct 2006 15:05:44 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)C Subject: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server. + Message-ID: <4pura8Fk39smU2@individual.net>   + In article <4puqdmFk39smU1@individual.net>, + 	bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  > F >                  As I have also stated in the past, MACRO-11 createdC > null terminated strings and I am willing to bet it was doing this E > before the first C compiler was ported to the PDP-11.  I can't say, F > as I have no experience with it, but perhaps someone here can answerH > this.  Did the systems prior to the PDP-11 support the Macro DirectiveC > .ASCIZ?  Does VAX MACRO?  Do any of them have the .PRINT Macro in C > their libraries?  What does it expect as the format for a string?    E Answered my own question on this.  MACRO-10, VAX MACRO, Sun4 Asm, GNU C GAS all have the ASCIZ directive and the routines to manipulate it. H I'll bet there are even more if I wanted to do a more exhaustive search.F For such an evil concept there sure are a lot of people using it.  :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:11:27 -0400 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>C Subject: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server. . Message-ID: <3xs_g.22687$2g4.22260@dukeread09>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:0 > In article <wbf_g.22664$2g4.17411@dukeread09>,( > 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: H >>> Actually, C doesn't care about null terminated strings any more thanK >>> any other language.  You are free to create arrays of char that contain K >>> strings in any format you prefer.  All you have to do is write routines  >>> to deal with them. >> Not quite true. >>? >> The compiler itself generate null terminated char arrays for  >> string literals.  > 6 > And, as I stated later on, so does the Ada compiler.   Yep, but that was wrong too.  E >                                                       It is not the C > composition of the character array that is the problem, it is the  > handling of it.   ) To make it safe there should be a length.   < And if there is a length, then the null bytes is not needed.  K >>> And for all of you who feel much more comfortable with Ada, now that we L >>> know there is no longer a DEC Ada and GNAT is the future, try writting aL >>> program with a few strings in it, compile it with GNAT and then pass theN >>> executable thru the Unix "strings" command.  For those of you not familiarN >>> with it, it will find and print out the strings in a binary file.  It doesP >>> this by looking for strings of ASCII that end in a null.  It usually returnsN >>> a lot of bogus strings cause lots of null terminated ASCII happens by pureM >>> chance, but it also returns all the real strings.  Why do I mention this? K >>> Because it will print out all the strings in your Ada program.  Anybody , >>> want to take a guess at what that means?  >> The format is not a C string. >>2 >> The format appears to be (based on a hex dump): >> >> * N bytes2 >> * 0-7 nul bytes padding length to multipla of 8 >> * 4 bytes with 1  >> * 4 bytes with N  > 2 > Sure looks like one to the strings command.  :-)  . Probably because the 1 bytes is not printable.  E  >                                              As I stated, there is G > nothing in the world stopping people from changing that constitutes a  > "string" in C.   Ofcourse there are.   9 The C standard section 6.4.5 defines how a string literal  is stored as bytes.   J >                You can easily use the UCSD definition and make the firstG > byte (or more, depending on the size limitation you want to impose) a F > length indicator and then write replacements for the standard stringE > manipulation routines to deal with them.  Or use the VMS Descriptor D > concept with the same requirement for new routines.  The source toH > numerous C compilers are available.  One could easily make all of thisO > totally transparent to the developer.  Why has it not been done?  Apparently,   > not enough people really care.   It would no longer be C.  A And if you are making a new language, then you can just as easily  fix a few other things.    And that has been done.   E None of the big languages invented after 1990 (primarily Java and C#) @ uses the null terminated string concept. They use objects. Which- are in reality equivalent to VMS descriptors.    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:32:54 -0400 % From: Kate Schell <cschell@radix.net> ) Subject: VMS DCL script programmer needed 0 Message-ID: <12jkf2dgdh5kafd@corp.supernews.com>  H A Reston, VA based company has need of a VMS DCL programmer to automate G VMS system validation processes.  A knowledge of the VA's VistA system   would be useful.  D The hiring manager would prefer a W-2 employee, but will consider a  contractor.   3 Must be available to start in the immediate future.   0 Please send resume, with salary requirements to:   Kate Schell  cschell@radix.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:28:28 -0400 8 From: Stephen Hoffman <Hoff@HoffmanLabs-RemoveThis-.Org>- Subject: Re: VMS DCL script programmer needed ) Message-ID: <ehdhr2$295v$1@pyrite.mv.net>    Kate Schell wrote:  2 > Please send resume, with salary requirements to:  F    Can I send you a book on Writing Real Programs in DCL instead?  :-)  I    But seriously, there are various folks around (eg: me) that can offer  G this service -- either directly or as a contract -- and you might want  G to forward this posting along (if you have not already done so) to Sue  H Skonetski over at HP.  First.Last@HP.Com.  Sue maintains a mailing list " for OpenVMS-related announcements.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.579 ************************                                                                                                                                                                                                        .3_w~>Gimlܹ!|2[,Uk{xwZf^j#1籡aEkD(*\ivQ&_ӥxؾasoc}-yA/Z=cs![b\g6[bo/9GY}=|<l[жX~(Y>,6+	ZkVZJѕ"Η6c[l)ESݭjh*"؋B.OSbKU-c 끈r&_ȶ*ABM{9!mH}b^ywu)in=~wPǶXb1qGhx{p(WJ!l!¡VY-֋?V:-!r삎6e6{ 84VS&m]
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