1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 22 Oct 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 581       Contents: Re: Alpha remembrance day  Re: DFU question DFU question Re: In a box solutions RE: LAN failover Re: Mylex question Re: Mylex question Re: Mylex question Re: Mylex question Re: OpenVMS over VMWare  Re: PARSEC: SPAMMERS Re: PARSEC: SPAMMERS (not !) Re: PARSEC: SPAMMERS (not !)$ Re: Running a news server on OpenVMS$ RE: Running a news server on OpenVMS# Re: Unix admin needs some pointers. # Re: Unix admin needs some pointers.  Re: USB hamster runs: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server.: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server.: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server.: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server.: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server.: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server.: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:11:09 +0200 " From: "Dr. Dweeb" <spam@dweeb.net>" Subject: Re: Alpha remembrance day; Message-ID: <453b43bd$0$179$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Doug Phillips wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:  >> Sharon wrote: >>9 >>> In article <44E0AEF4.ADF7A446@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei * >>> <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >>>  >>> H >>>> Read up "Elephants CAN Dance" by Lou Gerstner. IBM was in far worseC >>>> shape than Digital, yet, Gerstner was able to turn the company D >>>> around big time exactly by stopping the slash and burn that had >>>> begun just before him.  >>>>C >>>> Both IBM and Digital had become uncompetitive because of their ? >>>> prices and attitudes towards customers. Firing a gazillion F >>>> employees doesn't magically reduce prices on your price list. ButC >>>> it does prevent you from making sales when you no longer had a  >>>> sales force.  >>>  >>> H >>> Have anay of you read "DEC is Dead, Long Live DEC"?  Sorry, I forgetF >>> the author's name, but it's available on amazon.  I don't like the	 >>> title E >>> because it reeks of OS religious wars, but it's really a story of  >>> how DEC was # >>> started, grew, and fizzled out. H >>> I found it interesting that when the company reached a certain size,D >>> people started spending more and more time in CYA activities and
 >>> corporate F >>> politics and less time being technically productive.  It mentioned >>> that KenE >>> tried several times to stop this, but he had no clue how to do it  >>> (and didn't F >>> realize that his own personality caused some of it) so he was very >>> frustrated >>> by the time he bailed out.D >>> It also talked about how Ken and his management team were havingE >>> trouble reading the market in the 1980's.  They still let various  >>> people try to D >>> develop what they thought would be successful products, but then >>> canned many ofE >>> them too early and let a few bad ones go to market.  I'm not sure  >>> why the E >>> culture of "try it and see what happens" worked in the early days  >>> but actuallyE >>> damaged the company later on.  Perhaps because by then they had a  >>> reputation to = >>> uphold and things like the DEC Rainbow tarnished that...?  >>G >> The Rainbow was a fairly decent PC.  The problems were price, price, E >> price, and the lack of an Open bus structure.  IIRC you could have H >> either a hard disk controller or a network interface but not both ANDG >> both were DEC proprietary.  DEC offered, for $2200, a hard disk that H >> could be bought elsewhere for about $300.   DEC offered a set of 256KE >> RAM chips for $700; I bought mine on the open market for $33.  The F >> memory expansion daughter board was another $700.  (I bought a used >> one for far less than that!)  >>G >> Then there was the floppy issue; DEC insisted that it was impossible F >> for the Rainbow to format its own floppy disks.  The real issue wasG >> that DEC wanted to sell formatted 5-1/4" floppies for ~$5 each!  All C >> the competing machines could format blank floppies that sold for # >> something like a dollar each!!!!  >>A >> DEC eventually yielded on the floppy issue; the wonder is that F >> anyone at DEC could believe that DEC could get away with it!  ThereD >> was, by that time, a program available for PC's that would formatD >> Rainbow Floppies; naturally, the Rainbow required a unique format0 >> and could not exchange floppy disks with PCs. >>F >> DEC should have known better than to close the architecture; one of? >> the things that made the PDP11 great was the UNIBUS or Q-BUS @ >> architecture. Anybody could make and sell UNIBUS and/or Q-BUSD >> interfaces and several companies did.  That was a big part of theG >> success of those machines. They also had the example of the Apple II E >> and the IBM PC/XT with its ISA bus.  In short, they built hardware F >> that could not compete on features and certainly not on price.  NotG >> to mention that IBM had a head start that amounted to several years.  > E > I know I can't tell you anything about the Rainbow, David, but this ! > sure brings back some memories.  > F > At the time of the Rainbow-100's conception, not its birth, no clearF > leader in the desktop chip & OS wars had been declared. So, DEC madeF > it a triple boot machine with a Zilog Z80 for C/PM and an Intel-8088D > for MS-DOS & CP/M-86. When IBM's overwhelming success made Intel &D > MS-DOS the de facto desktop standard, DEC was already committed to( > producing the Frankensteinish Rainbow. > E > The Rainbow was grossly over-engineered for a desktop whose time to F > obsolescence was short. DEC apparently didn't understand or buy intoE > Moore's Law, so it was built in the "last forever" manner of larger G > DEC systems; therefore it was expensive. While it was built for "easy G > upgrade" using a special back-plane, the assumption was that upgrades E > would be available and the supporting electronics would suffice for F > any future need. Naturally, time proved that the cost of upgrading aA > Rainbow exceeded the cost of an entire new Compaq or other such  > computer.  > H > You needed a special Rainbow version of all software because the mediaC > and operating systems were not compatible with any other desktop. G > Naturally, there was not always a special Rainbow version of software F > one might like to have. (Does this sound familiar to all those loyal+ > DEC customers who bought into Alpha NT ?)  > E > We had a few Rainbows and our customers, being loyal to DEC, bought H > Rainbows, but not from us because we couldn't sell them. DECdirect wasF > easy to buy from! Plus, they were sold at the local ComputerLand andG > even at the local Sears store. They were advertised in the newspaper, H > radio and TV. PBS' Nightly Business Report showcased Rainbow's & VT's.G > Really! I know some younger people won't believe that, but it's true!  > H > The PC world moved on, but those Rainbows lasted forever. Because theyF > were so expensive, people couldn't justify throwing them out so most% > of them became very fancy VT-220's.  >  > Ah, memories.   , Indeed.  For a little walk down memory lane.  M It met my needs and was used for over a decade before it finally gave up the  M ghost with some electrical component failure.  It met my needs, the software  J that was available was good.  It is clearly the best engineered PC I have I ever owned.  It sat on my desk for years after it died, before I finally  * took it to the recycling dump - a sad day.  L My 100B, with all the extras, including the dual hard disk controller (Hoot M Gibson to thank for that), the 80286 upgrade (from Suitable Solutions), 896K  K memory, the proprietary graphics.  Never had the NetCard because back then  G comms was all via modem and as mentioned, there was nowhere to put it.  L There was also a removable hard disk technology available, but it was a bit  flakey.   M WP 4.2 in the speedy memory mapped version was probably the best non-graphic  J wp program of its time, and was a native rainbow application.  There were K alternatives for most applications, and some stuff that never made it into  J mainstream IBM-DOS.  The disk formatting tool came out of DEC reasonabley I quickly, as did a nice backup utility. Disk cacheing and defragmentation  K were available, etc. etc. There was all sorts of useful freeware available  M because lots of DECcies had them so they wrote useful stuff - a lot of it in  L TurboPascal, which Phillippe Khan had acquired from Anders Hj. aka. Compass & Pascal which was available for the RB.  = C-CPM was available, which really was a slick OS, and IIRC a  J software/hardware deal was done to place that combination in florists (or M was it self storage ?) and it survived as a quality application in daily use   for many many years.  L I even wrote a reasonable and very nice colour, graphics MasterMind in TP - M my first ever Pascal program.  I do not think it was widely distributed, but  G my daughter played it a lot when she was little.  There were plenty of  3 languages available for those wishing to tinker. :)   M VT102 emulation was in the hardware and thus perfect, and the VT220 emulator  M (another TP program) was for the most part faultless.  So for dial-up access  G to the VMS machines, the RB really was the PC of choice - since the RB  G keyboard was the LK style keyboard, something that I have never weened  K myself from, as I type this on an LK450 !  I just think square keys are so  J much better than vertical oblong ones, and IMHO nothing beats the feel of $ the VT keyboards for serious typing.  H Inside DEC too there was a quite active Notes conference, where lots of L useful information was to be found.  There was also IRUG, which published a M useful newsletter.  The DEC specific magazines covered the RB extensively as   well.   M Times were different then, and those that actually forked out the money, got  G a something that in terms of reliability and quality of production was  L really quite good, and many of us used the machines until they died natural G deaths.  The Ecosystem for the RB was pretty good actually, but it was  M eventually swamped by the (IMHO) vastly inferior (but open architecture) IBM  H PC and the rest is history as the world moved towards "standards" - lol.  H As a small sidenote, watch GhostBusters, and you will see it as product I placement, where Dan Akroyd admonishes his secretary to "type something"  L because all the PC kit had cost a lot of money.  IIRC it is a nicely kitted  out Rainbow.  ! Well so much for the reminiscing.    Dweeb.     ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2006 00:16:58 -0700/ From: "David B Sneddon" <dbsneddon@bigpond.com>  Subject: Re: DFU question B Message-ID: <1161501418.164602.135150@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>  
 nobody wrote: D > As part of building a new Alpha system, I downloaded DFU for alphaA > Version 3.1 (which appears to be the latest) from freeware 76.0  > J > based on what I read, it mentions it handles ODS-2. What is the story of > running FDU on ODS-5 disks ? > K > Also, is there a way to invoke DFU without the slow SMG screen handling ?  > E > More importantly, does the "UNDELETE" work as well as the old DECUS M > UNDELETE standalone utility ? (question applies to both ODS 2 and 5 disks).   " V3.2 is the latest, available from http://www.digiater.nl/dfu.html 3 Disable the SMG stuff via the logical DFU$NOSMG, by  setting it to YES or TRUE or 1   Dave.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 03:09:19 -0400   From: nobody <nobody@nobody.org> Subject: DFU question * Message-ID: <453B191B.344B7C99@nobody.org>  B As part of building a new Alpha system, I downloaded DFU for alpha? Version 3.1 (which appears to be the latest) from freeware 76.0   H based on what I read, it mentions it handles ODS-2. What is the story of running FDU on ODS-5 disks ?  I Also, is there a way to invoke DFU without the slow SMG screen handling ?   C More importantly, does the "UNDELETE" work as well as the old DECUS K UNDELETE standalone utility ? (question applies to both ODS 2 and 5 disks).    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 03:09:29 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: In a box solutions 9 Message-ID: <u96dnWk14oFgi6bYnZ2dnUVZ_v6dnZ2d@libcom.com>    DeanW wrote:H > On 19 Oct 2006 08:32:40 -0700, Rich Jordan <jordan@ccs4vms.com> wrote:
 >> Warren,F >>      there's a world of difference.  Remember the timeframe; CompaqI >> takeover, apparently a CEO who "got it" about Alpha, and maybe VMS (at E >> least until the windows-beancounter thugocracy sacked him), and an I >> actual ADVERTISEMENT mentioning VMS.  Wow!  Compaq might actually WANT  >> to sell the product!  > E > We did an RFP presentation at that time. Compaq insisted on sending C > along two of their PC-pushing drones to push including PCs on the 
 > desktop. > B > The drones were *astounded* that we were selling a high 7-figure9 > package that included a grand total of *two* computers. = > (medium-equipped ES-40s), and everything else was software,  > customization, training, etc.   C I suspect that Compaq just didn't understand the value of customer  G applications.  They sure didn't take that into consideration when they  I killed Alpha.  I guess if your conception of computing is a bunch of PCs  6 with Microsoft Office, you don't understand much else.  H > Sure, they could include some PCs in the package at a loss- but they'd > make it up in volume!      --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:29:14 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>  Subject: RE: LAN failover T Message-ID: <FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B868401C3926E@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----5 > From: grecot@gmail.com [mailto:grecot@gmail.com]=20   > Sent: October 20, 2006 3:29 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > Subject: LAN failover  >=20 > Folks, >=20B > I've being using a DS25 system with DE602 OVMS 7.3.2 with ECO=20< > 5.4, and configured LANCP to to a LAN Failover for EID0=20% > (priority 20) e EIH0 (priority 10).  >=20@ > The system is not in a cluster enviroment, and I've noticed=20 > the following behaviour: >=20 > After boot sequence  > EID0 is (active) > LLA0 is working fine.  >=20= > If I do $mcr lancp set dev lla0 /switch the EID0 goes to=20 ? > stand-by according to $ mcr lancp sh dev lla0 /char, shows=20 > > that EIH0 is active, and after that pinging to IP address=20# > assigned to LLA0 is not possible.  > :( >=20= > Yet, if do a spawn on LANCP, and ping an host within the=20 ( > network, LLA0 starts responding pings., > If I switch again, stops again responsing. >=20B > So, LAN Failover only works after output traffic is requested=20 > to TCPIP stack?  >=20B > I strongly suspect this is not the expected behaviour, do you=20 > have any tips for it?  >=20D > Both NICs are configured to FASTD FULL 100Mbit/s and protocol MOP. >=20 > Thnx >=20    5 Good whitepaper on TCPIP high availability features - ? http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/v2/articles/tcpip.pdf    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:22:06 +0200 # From: "H Vlems" <hvlems@freenet.de>  Subject: Re: Mylex question 5 Message-ID: <ehfd3n$1f2t$1@registered.motzarella.org>    Hello John,   G it's good to know I'm not the only one running 1200's (well, 5305's) at I home. The problem with running ARC is that I use a serial line and cannot - find the option to run a program from floppy. J The 1200 (it still is a white box alpha but with an AS1200 5/400 cpu let'sH call it a 1200 shall we?)  came without a VGA card. I installed a Matrox$ card but haven't tried that one yet.L The URL is great, thanks! Tried to locate it but wasn't able to find it last night.J Right now I use one KZPSM-AA and that works fine. If I don't get the Mylex* to work then I'll order a second KZPSM-AA.   Hans   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2006 07:42:20 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>  Subject: Re: Mylex question C Message-ID: <1161528140.389790.193480@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    H Vlems wrote:
 > Hello John,  > I > it's good to know I'm not the only one running 1200's (well, 5305's) at K > home. The problem with running ARC is that I use a serial line and cannot / > find the option to run a program from floppy. L > The 1200 (it still is a white box alpha but with an AS1200 5/400 cpu let'sJ > call it a 1200 shall we?)  came without a VGA card. I installed a Matrox& > card but haven't tried that one yet.N > The URL is great, thanks! Tried to locate it but wasn't able to find it last > night.L > Right now I use one KZPSM-AA and that works fine. If I don't get the Mylex, > to work then I'll order a second KZPSM-AA. >  > Hans  A The RCU manual and a few other online sources make reference to a G serial port version of RCU but I haven't been able to find it anywhere. E  You can use the Matrox card for the ARC bios, however VMS won't like G it.  My 5303 came with a Matrox video card which will work for AlphaNT, G Linux and Tru64 but not OpenVMS.  What you can do though is set the SRM C environment to graphical and run the RCU utilities and once that is G done set it back to serial mode to boot VMS.  I can't remember but it's D possible you may have to remove the Matrox video card before bootingF VMS.  I seem to recall that the system would halt in the start up whenG it detected the Matrox card.  You might try making sure that DECwindows  does't start - that may help.      John H. Reinhardt    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 17:37:19 +0200 # From: "H Vlems" <hvlems@freenet.de>  Subject: Re: Mylex question 5 Message-ID: <ehg338$1u5j$1@registered.motzarella.org>   - <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht = news:1161528140.389790.193480@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  >  > H Vlems wrote: > > Hello John,  > > K > > it's good to know I'm not the only one running 1200's (well, 5305's) at F > > home. The problem with running ARC is that I use a serial line and cannot1 > > find the option to run a program from floppy. H > > The 1200 (it still is a white box alpha but with an AS1200 5/400 cpu let's L > > call it a 1200 shall we?)  came without a VGA card. I installed a Matrox( > > card but haven't tried that one yet.K > > The URL is great, thanks! Tried to locate it but wasn't able to find it  last
 > > night.H > > Right now I use one KZPSM-AA and that works fine. If I don't get the Mylex . > > to work then I'll order a second KZPSM-AA. > >  > > Hans > C > The RCU manual and a few other online sources make reference to a I > serial port version of RCU but I haven't been able to find it anywhere. G >  You can use the Matrox card for the ARC bios, however VMS won't like I > it.  My 5303 came with a Matrox video card which will work for AlphaNT, I > Linux and Tru64 but not OpenVMS.  What you can do though is set the SRM E > environment to graphical and run the RCU utilities and once that is I > done set it back to serial mode to boot VMS.  I can't remember but it's F > possible you may have to remove the Matrox video card before bootingH > VMS.  I seem to recall that the system would halt in the start up whenI > it detected the Matrox card.  You might try making sure that DECwindows  > does't start - that may help.  >  >   John H. Reinhardt  > J The Matrox card is indeed not recognized by VMS and DECwindows won't start7 because there's no graphics device found on the system. J I managed to find my way around ARC and ran ra200FL. That utility reported, it could not find a a Mylex raid controller.E Ra200RCU did find the controller though, but I forgot the -o flag :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:20:57 +0200 # From: "H Vlems" <hvlems@freenet.de>  Subject: Re: Mylex question 5 Message-ID: <ehg95h$22cj$1@registered.motzarella.org>   - <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht = news:1161528140.389790.193480@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  >  > H Vlems wrote: > > Hello John,  > > K > > it's good to know I'm not the only one running 1200's (well, 5305's) at F > > home. The problem with running ARC is that I use a serial line and cannot1 > > find the option to run a program from floppy. H > > The 1200 (it still is a white box alpha but with an AS1200 5/400 cpu let's L > > call it a 1200 shall we?)  came without a VGA card. I installed a Matrox( > > card but haven't tried that one yet.K > > The URL is great, thanks! Tried to locate it but wasn't able to find it  last
 > > night.H > > Right now I use one KZPSM-AA and that works fine. If I don't get the Mylex . > > to work then I'll order a second KZPSM-AA. > >  > > Hans > C > The RCU manual and a few other online sources make reference to a I > serial port version of RCU but I haven't been able to find it anywhere. G >  You can use the Matrox card for the ARC bios, however VMS won't like I > it.  My 5303 came with a Matrox video card which will work for AlphaNT, I > Linux and Tru64 but not OpenVMS.  What you can do though is set the SRM E > environment to graphical and run the RCU utilities and once that is I > done set it back to serial mode to boot VMS.  I can't remember but it's F > possible you may have to remove the Matrox video card before bootingH > VMS.  I seem to recall that the system would halt in the start up whenI > it detected the Matrox card.  You might try making sure that DECwindows  > does't start - that may help.  >  >   John H. Reinhardt  >  John, H the RA200RCU utility displays a banner with the string Firmware version: 3.52 Should I downgrade to 2.70?  Hans   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:28:16 -0400 8 From: Stephen Hoffman <Hoff@HoffmanLabs-RemoveThis-.Org>  Subject: Re: OpenVMS over VMWare) Message-ID: <ehg9n3$30b1$1@pyrite.mv.net>    Michael Unger wrote:  F > Wasn't there a "virtual PC" product available for OpenVMS/Alpha? YouG > could probably insert that "layer" between the "Alpha" and the "VAX".   H    That could potentially be the SoftPC or SoftWindows product that you E are remembering, or potentially the WinU product.  Off-hand, I don't  + know if there is/was a port of Wine around.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:44:15 -0700 4 From: Alan Frisbie <Usenet02_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> Subject: Re: PARSEC: SPAMMERS % Message-ID: <1161535298.382886@smirk>    Neil Rieck wrote: I > On Friday (2006-10-20) I received a very responsible email from Parsec  O > telling me that I was on one of their mailing lists. This email also told me  K > how to remove myself from their mailing lists if I so desired. So I hope  H > this action on their part puts to rest the SPAM label someone in this  > newsgroup hung on them.   E Why should anybody have to opt-out of something they never asked for?   C Anyone who sends me unsolicited e-mail and promises to send me more & until I take some action is a spammer.  C In the last 24 hours, my spam blocks stopped 2782 unwanted e-mails. B How long would it take to opt-out of all of those?   Why should I?  4 Parsec requires you to opt-out.   They are spammers.   Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:21:16 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> % Subject: Re: PARSEC: SPAMMERS (not !) < Message-ID: <453b6ffb$0$14862$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>  G On Friday (2006-10-20) I received a very responsible email from Parsec  M telling me that I was on one of their mailing lists. This email also told me  I how to remove myself from their mailing lists if I so desired. So I hope  F this action on their part puts to rest the SPAM label someone in this C newsgroup hung on them. IMHO, spam is the "penny stock" and "penis  K enlargement" crap I don't give a damn about and can't stop. Invitations to  K OpenVMS webinars, OpenVMS training and OpenVMS support etc. is something I  / do care about and can stop so this is not spam.   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada." http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 17:43:47 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)% Subject: Re: PARSEC: SPAMMERS (not !) $ Message-ID: <ehgakj$kvd$1@online.de>  B In article <453b6ffb$0$14862$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil& Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:   I > On Friday (2006-10-20) I received a very responsible email from Parsec  O > telling me that I was on one of their mailing lists. This email also told me  K > how to remove myself from their mailing lists if I so desired. So I hope  H > this action on their part puts to rest the SPAM label someone in this E > newsgroup hung on them. IMHO, spam is the "penny stock" and "penis  M > enlargement" crap I don't give a damn about and can't stop. Invitations to  M > OpenVMS webinars, OpenVMS training and OpenVMS support etc. is something I  1 > do care about and can stop so this is not spam.   B The standard definition of SPAM is unsolicited bulk email.  It is I usually commercial.  (It makes little sense to spend even a little money  E to send unsolicited emails to a large number of people.)  Not bulk?   ? Fine.  I remember back when I was looking for a job I got some  F unsolicited emails offering me a job.  No problem.  Not unsolicited?  E Fine.  It 20 thousand people sign up for my newsletter, no problem.   " It's the combination which is bad.  H Suppose you got 1000 emails each day saying that you were "on the list" G and providing you with instructions on how to get off the list?  Would  G you still not mind?  (Of course, most "click here to be removed" links  I merely confirm that the email has actually been read, making the address   more valuable to spammers.)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 01:57:36 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> - Subject: Re: Running a news server on OpenVMS , Message-ID: <453B084A.DB06B5F3@teksavvy.com>  " "Yehavi Bourvine (58-4279)" wrote:N > I used ANUNEWS in the past (up to about 7-8 years ago). The problem was thatP > VMS couldn't hold the load of creating and deleting a lot of small files (eachK > item was a separate file). I finally moved it to a Linux server with Inn.   D With the supposedly improved caching/file system in version 8.*, hasE this made a big difference in performance for file create/delete when  there is a large directory ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:45:34 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> - Subject: RE: Running a news server on OpenVMS T Message-ID: <FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B868401C39268@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----C > From: Yehavi Bourvine (58-4279) [mailto:yehavi@vms.huji.ac.il]=20   > Sent: October 22, 2006 3:34 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com / > Subject: Re: Running a news server on OpenVMS  >=20? > In article <4537e741$0$10304$815e3792@news.qwest.net>, Jim=20 # > Mehlhop <jim@mehlhop.org> writes: H > > I'd like to know how to set up my VMS box as a news server.  I am=20> > > running Multinet 5.1 and OpenVMS8.2 Alpha on a PWS500au=20 > with 640 meg and: > >   about 60 GB of free disk space.  I could probably=20 > dedicate an 18GB=20  > > disk for this. > >=20( > > Is there any documentation for this? > >=20 > >=20 > > Jim  >=20@ > I used ANUNEWS in the past (up to about 7-8 years ago). The=20@ > problem was that VMS couldn't hold the load of creating and=20< > deleting a lot of small files (each item was a separate=207 > file). I finally moved it to a Linux server with Inn.  >=20 > Nothing is perfect... D >                                                          __Yehavi: >=20  ' Re: yep, nothing is perfect as you say.   G I suspect the OpenVMS file creation issue you mentioned has likely been E fixed by the numerous performance issues and enhancements since then. C One example would be the write back cache capability (I believe the B default in most UNIX platforms) which was introduced in VMS V7.3-1D timeframe. Also, Fast IO and Fast Path are other features that might, assist in improving news server performance.  H The flip side to the Linux option (similar to Windows) is having to deal@ with the 5-20 *security* (not bug) patches per month. Reference:@ https://www.redhat.com/archives/enterprise-watch-list/ (click on( "thread" for each month and add them up)  @ This security consideration may not be a consideration for smallG environments, but certainly is for med-large installations that need to 5 test their applications before releasing any patches.   B Note - it would be interesting for those implementing OpenVMS newsD servers if enabling cache write back and/or Fast IO and/or Fast Path< options does improve the news server performance. Reference:  ? http://tinyurl.com/y8gsay (Enhancing OpenVMW write performance)   D http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/aa-pv6sf-tk/00/00/93-con.html (Fast I/O and Fast Path)G "The improvements follow a natural division that already exists between E the device-independent and device-dependent layers in the OpenVMS I/O D subsystem. The device-independent overhead is addressed by Fast I/O,F which is a set of lean system services that can substitute for certainE $QIO operations. Using these services requires some coding changes in B existing applications, but the changes are usually modest and wellC contained. The device-dependent overhead is addressed by Fast Path, F which is an optional performance feature that creates a "fast path" to2 the device. It requires no application changes.=20  H Fast I/O and Fast Path can be used independently; however, together theyF can provide a 45 percent reduction in CPU cost per I/O on uniprocessor> systems and a 52 percent reduction on multiprocessor systems."   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 03:24:22 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> , Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers.9 Message-ID: <f9CdnYrWpvzmh6bYnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@libcom.com>    jrmorrisnc@gmail.com wrote:  > Wow! > G > Thank you all for your help. I do consider it an opportunity to learn F > something new (to me anyway). I just wish the timescale for doing so: > was not so tight, but nothing like a good challenge, eh? > F > I should also say to clarify that my immediate management aren't theH > ones pushing on this, and I'm well aware of what being thrown off intoE > the deep end is like, I've dealt with it before but that was over a G > decade ago ;). It's a contract situation so the customer can push the H > issue of various staff being removed and then push on the support side > as well... > G > I already can see some pretty cool things that only recently have any I > decent analogs in the Unix world, like file versioning (snapshots under @ > EVMS/LVM2 on Linux or the whole NetApp snapshot thing would beH > similiar, or CVS/SVN/etc, but snapshots are time based and VMS does itI > on a per change basis without having to add any version control system. 
 > Very cool.)  > I > I think armed with the advice received here I will be buying some books I > and pushing back for possible training. I used to have an Alpha at home B > running Linux but sold it when I moved so I will probably go forG > emulation under Linux to start while I get another Alpha... I think I B > can take care of any remaining mail address issues with a betterC > understanding of where stuff might be, my searches were under the H > assumption it would be in .COM files -- and it was, but that's not the > only places it could be.  G When I first started on VMS the first 60 days were hell.  Once I found  C out how to do things, and the flexibility available to me, I never  D looked back.  This was back when VMS was first released.  It's much I better now.  You will have a learning curve.  There are resources now to  C help.  Back when I learned VMS, there was nobody to help, all were  
 beginners.  F > One other thing they are pushing on is audit reports for the last 60D > days; especially for telnet logins. The system uses UCX to provide  > telnet. So a couple questions:  D VMS can write many audit events to logfile(s).  If the auditing was F enabled, you can produce some reports (of whatever is available).  If H the auditing was not enabled, you won't be able to produce any reports. H   Your first task for this issue will be to determine the current state  of logging.   G > Any good references for UCX and logs related to services like telnet?  > E > Also, any good ssh server for VMS? The one link I found was dead...  > B > Thanks a ton, once again, most appreciated and I look forward to > learning VMS.  >    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:31:25 -0500 3 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net> , Subject: Re: Unix admin needs some pointers.0 Message-ID: <453BAAED.F1C82D9F@spam.comcast.net>   John Santos wrote: > [snip]C > On the other hand, "UCX" implies a fairly old version, since they E > changed the name to "HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS" some time ago,  > [snip]  M Well, no , not really. "UCX" is only three letters while "TCP/IP Services for . OpenVMS" is four words, 27 keystrokes to type.  O Which would *YOU* rather repeat umpteen times in a Usenet post / presentation /  document / ... ?  < When I say "UCX" most everyone knows what I'm talking about.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 03:27:41 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: USB hamster runs 9 Message-ID: <f9CdnYXWpvzchqbYnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Forrest Kenney wrote: F >>         The USB hamster showed up in my mail on Thursday.  I took aG >> quick USB bus trace with it in windows.  A small modification to the D >> missile support code and a rework of the missile example code and >> the works.  >  > J > Humm re-using code military code (missile launchers) to get some hampter > to run in a wheel :-)  > C > (reminds me of the story of australian air force re-using code of I > kangaroos in the bush to simulate troups ... the troups all ran away as - > soon as the helicopters approached them :-)   H My memory is a bit different.  The story I read was that the helicoptor E pilots ignored the kangaroos, until the kangaroos all fired shoulder   launched SAMs.  :-)    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:46:43 GMT + From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= C Subject: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server. 2 Message-ID: <TKJ_g.20581$E02.8230@newsb.telia.net>   Richard Maher wrote :    > Hi Jan-Erik, > M > First, let me appologize for what (having re-read my post) appeared to be a M > pretty personal/specific attack. I was, in fact, ranting at the whole world > > and not you, your company, or your application specifically.  A OK, no problem. I've enjoyed reading many other post from you, so   I didn't took it to personal :-)  & I fully understand what you're saying.  / But, the fact is that if you'd like to add some 6 "bells-n-whisles" to a application that is regarded as3 something old and "closed" using weird VT-something 6 interfaces, the far most easiest route is to add a few0 web-pages with "management-info". That's a fact.  7 And the bulk of the business-logic is written in Cobol, 4 so my plan it to help them intereface that code with the OSU server.   8 I have described what can quite easily be done, and they7 are very positive, I'd say. Which turns into consulting  hours for me...   5 Now, that might not be the most perfect solution from 7 a technical standpoint, but that is what is regarded as 8 state-of-the-art today (maybe not by you and me, but who= cares about *that* ?) and it's also pretty fast/cheap to have  something running.  ! > PS. I  hope "skrev" is good :-)   7 As Arne write, "skrev" is the imperfect of "skriva", or 7 "write/wrote" in English. *But* "skrev" is one of those 8 words in Swedish with double meaning, it also translates= into "crutch" or "crotch", with was *not* what I ment in this  case :-)  
 Best Regards, 	 Jan-Erik.    ------------------------------   Date: 22 Oct 2006 13:41:33 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)C Subject: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server. + Message-ID: <4q1aocFkkr4lU1@individual.net>   . In article <_Jt_g.22692$2g4.13916@dukeread09>,& 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:1 >> In article <3xs_g.22687$2g4.22260@dukeread09>, ) >> 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:  >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:G >>>>                                              As I stated, there is J >>>> nothing in the world stopping people from changing that constitutes a >>>> "string" in C.  >>> Ofcourse there are.  >>> = >>> The C standard section 6.4.5 defines how a string literal  >>> is stored as bytes.  >>  F >> OK, and who wrote that definition?  And why can't they re-define it
 >> otherwise?  > = > You don't change the language definition in a way that will  > break so much code.   A I have already posted a method that would allow future code to be B string safe as well as make slow conversion (as bugs are found and( fixed) without breaking existing code.     > ? >>       And, if the null terminated string was such a problem. 2 >> why didn't they redefine it in the first place? > ; > When it became acknowledges as a problem it was too late.   C It is never too late.   If the problem is seen as serious enough it > will be fixed.  Do you realize how much BASIC code was alreadyE written and running (in production environments!) before ANSI decided / to even take on defining ANSI Standard BASIC?      > G >> But if the ANSI C Committee makes the change, it would still be C by E >> virtue of their blessing.  So, why has this not been fixed?  Comes D >> right back to my statement about interest.  Obviously, not enoughG >> people care to make the move.  Heck, it would even be possible to do E >> it in such a manner that you could maintain complete compatability E >> with existing source code if you really wanted to.  After all, the I >> data type "string" doesn't currently exist in C.  The ANSI C Committee F >> could add it.  And the language would still be C in the opinions of >> the majority of the world.  >  > Enough people care about it.  F Apparently not, or they would either fix it themselves or be clamoringH for the standards bodies to fix it.  Or, as a minimum, some entrepreneur8 would be making a fortune selling "The Safe C Compiler".   > ? > They have switched to Java, C# and even C++ with STL strings.   C Java is certainly no replacement for C.  Ever try writting an OS in F Java?  Don't really know much about C# except the driving force behindD it was corporate politics rather than technical superiority.  And asC for C++, doesn't it still support null terminated strings alongside  better ways to do it?    > I >>> None of the big languages invented after 1990 (primarily Java and C#) D >>> uses the null terminated string concept. They use objects. Which1 >>> are in reality equivalent to VMS descriptors.   E And neither of the examples provided are suitable or were intended to D do the things C was created to do.  Prove me wrong, rewrite any UnixB kernel in either language.  I'll make it easy for you, you can useG Ultrix-11 as your guinea pig.  It's relatively small as Unix kernels go F and all the sources are available.  Oh wait.  You can't write an OS inC Java.  It only runs in a Virtual Machine which requires an OS and a = very limited subset of existing hardware in order to run it!!    >>  J >> Take som time to search for some of the recent comments from experts inO >> the OO field.  Even they are starting to realize the emperor has no clothes. I >> (Not saying VMS Descriptors are wrong, because I think they are a good E >> idea, just pointing out that even the OO community is beginning to G >> come to the realization that OO is no more the universal answer than F >> any other pardigm we have come up with inthe industry in the past.) > E > I think it is rather universal accepted that OOP was the way to go.   6 Many of the big names in OO are beginning to disagree.   > A > I do not forsee any mainstream languages being created that are  > not object oriented. > < > Use of a non object oriented language for a new project is > an exception.  > : > It has been realized that OOP is not the final solution. >   > So we are heading towards AOP.  J Yeah, and RISC was the answer  no wait, EPIC is the answer, no wait.......   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 07:42:23 -0700 * From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos-remove.com>C Subject: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server. ) Message-ID: <op.thtu4xkptte90l@hyrrokkin>   H On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 07:50:30 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   wrote:  0 > In article <wbf_g.22664$2g4.17411@dukeread09>,( > 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: H >>> Actually, C doesn't care about null terminated strings any more thanK >>> any other language.  You are free to create arrays of char that contain K >>> strings in any format you prefer.  All you have to do is write routines  >>> to deal with them. >> >> Not quite true. >>? >> The compiler itself generate null terminated char arrays for  >> string literals.  > E > And, as I stated later on, so does the Ada compiler.  It is not the C > composition of the character array that is the problem, it is the F > handling of it.  As I have also stated in the past, MACRO-11 createdC > null terminated strings and I am willing to bet it was doing this E > before the first C compiler was ported to the PDP-11.  I can't say, F > as I have no experience with it, but perhaps someone here can answerH > this.  Did the systems prior to the PDP-11 support the Macro DirectiveC > .ASCIZ?  Does VAX MACRO?  Do any of them have the .PRINT Macro in C > their libraries?  What does it expect as the format for a string?  >  >>K >>> And for all of you who feel much more comfortable with Ada, now that we L >>> know there is no longer a DEC Ada and GNAT is the future, try writting   >>> a J >>> program with a few strings in it, compile it with GNAT and then pass   >>> the G >>> executable thru the Unix "strings" command.  For those of you not    >>> familiarK >>> with it, it will find and print out the strings in a binary file.  It    >>> doesJ >>> this by looking for strings of ASCII that end in a null.  It usually   >>> returns K >>> a lot of bogus strings cause lots of null terminated ASCII happens by    >>> pureI >>> chance, but it also returns all the real strings.  Why do I mention   	 >>> this? K >>> Because it will print out all the strings in your Ada program.  Anybody , >>> want to take a guess at what that means? >>  >> The format is not a C string. >>2 >> The format appears to be (based on a hex dump): >> >> * N bytes2 >> * 0-7 nul bytes padding length to multipla of 8 >> * 4 bytes with 1  >> * 4 bytes with N  > G > Sure looks like one to the strings command.  :-)  My point is that it F > is not the constitution of the string that causes the problem, it isG > the way the string is handled by the language.  As I stated, there is G > nothing in the world stopping people from changing that constitutes a K > "string" in C.  You can easily use the UCSD definition and make the first G > byte (or more, depending on the size limitation you want to impose) a F > length indicator and then write replacements for the standard stringE > manipulation routines to deal with them.  Or use the VMS Descriptor D > concept with the same requirement for new routines.  The source toH > numerous C compilers are available.  One could easily make all of thisE > totally transparent to the developer.  Why has it not been done?    
 > Apparently,   > not enough people really care.  ; Why not just use a language that handles strings correctly?    >  > bill >        --  E Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/    ------------------------------   Date: 22 Oct 2006 15:24:50 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)C Subject: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server. + Message-ID: <4q1gq2Fl594hU1@individual.net>   ( In article <dKL_g.7481$LA.409@trnddc06>,# 	John Santos <john@egh.com> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:1 >> In article <_Jt_g.22692$2g4.13916@dukeread09>, ) >> 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:  >>   >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>> 2 >>>>In article <3xs_g.22687$2g4.22260@dukeread09>,* >>>>	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: >>>> >>>>>Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>>>> H >>>>>>                                             As I stated, there isK >>>>>>nothing in the world stopping people from changing that constitutes a  >>>>>>"string" in C. >>>>>  >>>>>Ofcourse there are. >>>>> > >>>>>The C standard section 6.4.5 defines how a string literal >>>>>is stored as bytes. >>>>G >>>>OK, and who wrote that definition?  And why can't they re-define it  >>>>otherwise? >>> > >>>You don't change the language definition in a way that will >>>break so much code. >>   >>  D >> I have already posted a method that would allow future code to beE >> string safe as well as make slow conversion (as bugs are found and + >> fixed) without breaking existing code.    >>   >>  @ >>>>      And, if the null terminated string was such a problem.3 >>>>why didn't they redefine it in the first place?  >>> < >>>When it became acknowledges as a problem it was too late. >>   >>  F >> It is never too late.   If the problem is seen as serious enough itA >> will be fixed.  Do you realize how much BASIC code was already H >> written and running (in production environments!) before ANSI decided2 >> to even take on defining ANSI Standard BASIC?   > E > Really really bad example.  The ANSI standard for BASIC is useless, C > and no existing programs (literally none of them) were compliant, F > and I doubt any one wasted any effort beyond and initial explorationD > attempting to port them.  And virtually no new code was written toB > the ANSI standard.  Try compiling a DEC BASIC program with /ANSID > some time.  (On Alpha and IA64, it says "The ANSI qualifier is notG > supported" and ignores it.  On VAX, it flags every line for something E > or other.  The "LET" verb is required.  INPUT "PROMPT"; VARIABLE is G > illegal (no prompting on INPUT statements.)  Integer variables aren't 3 > allowed, only strings and floats.  Etc. etc. etc.  > E > In other words, a really really good example of what happens when a 0 > standards committee ignores existing practice.  A I didn't say it was a good thing.  I only meant to point out that A ANSI has had  no problem in the past with changing the definition A of a language while keeping the same name.  While many VMS people D are sure to disagree, using BASIC for anything is a bad idea (IMHO!)   >  >  >  >>   >>  H >>>>But if the ANSI C Committee makes the change, it would still be C byF >>>>virtue of their blessing.  So, why has this not been fixed?  ComesE >>>>right back to my statement about interest.  Obviously, not enough H >>>>people care to make the move.  Heck, it would even be possible to doF >>>>it in such a manner that you could maintain complete compatabilityF >>>>with existing source code if you really wanted to.  After all, theJ >>>>data type "string" doesn't currently exist in C.  The ANSI C CommitteeG >>>>could add it.  And the language would still be C in the opinions of  >>>>the majority of the world. >>>  >>>Enough people care about it.  >>   >>  I >> Apparently not, or they would either fix it themselves or be clamoring K >> for the standards bodies to fix it.  Or, as a minimum, some entrepreneur ; >> would be making a fortune selling "The Safe C Compiler".  > K > This is really nonsense.  It isn't just a matter of creating a C compiler M > that uses counted or descriptored strings for string constants and includes C > substitute routines for printf, fgets, strcpy, strncmp, etc. that H > use the safe data types.  Tons of existing code would break in the newH > compiler, because of things like stepping through strings as arrays ofD > chars looking for nulls.  Every line would have to be looked at by, > something a lot smarter than any compiler.  F You must not have read what I said.  I said you modify the language toH add a dat type called "string".  You design the string data type in suchI a manner that the buffer overrun problem does not exist.  You provide all E the routines needed to handle these strings in a safe manner.  You do I not remove the old way of doing it.  Now, there is a method of developing H new programs that are "string safe".  Existing programs can have the badF parts re-written as bugs are found or at the desire of the programmer.I Eventually (one would hope) the problem goes away as all programs migrate C to the safe method.  You need never remove the old method, you just  discourage its use (like GOTO).    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 22 Oct 2006 15:28:20 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)C Subject: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server. + Message-ID: <4q1h0jFl594hU2@individual.net>   ) In article <op.thtu4xkptte90l@hyrrokkin>, - 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos-remove.com> writes: J > On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 07:50:30 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   > wrote: > 1 >> In article <wbf_g.22664$2g4.17411@dukeread09>, ) >> 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:  >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:I >>>> Actually, C doesn't care about null terminated strings any more than L >>>> any other language.  You are free to create arrays of char that containL >>>> strings in any format you prefer.  All you have to do is write routines >>>> to deal with them.  >>>  >>> Not quite true.  >>> @ >>> The compiler itself generate null terminated char arrays for >>> string literals. >>F >> And, as I stated later on, so does the Ada compiler.  It is not theD >> composition of the character array that is the problem, it is theG >> handling of it.  As I have also stated in the past, MACRO-11 created D >> null terminated strings and I am willing to bet it was doing thisF >> before the first C compiler was ported to the PDP-11.  I can't say,G >> as I have no experience with it, but perhaps someone here can answer I >> this.  Did the systems prior to the PDP-11 support the Macro Directive D >> .ASCIZ?  Does VAX MACRO?  Do any of them have the .PRINT Macro inD >> their libraries?  What does it expect as the format for a string? >> >>> L >>>> And for all of you who feel much more comfortable with Ada, now that weM >>>> know there is no longer a DEC Ada and GNAT is the future, try writting    >>>> aK >>>> program with a few strings in it, compile it with GNAT and then pass    >>>> theH >>>> executable thru the Unix "strings" command.  For those of you not  
 >>>> familiar L >>>> with it, it will find and print out the strings in a binary file.  It  	 >>>> does K >>>> this by looking for strings of ASCII that end in a null.  It usually    >>>> returnsL >>>> a lot of bogus strings cause lots of null terminated ASCII happens by  	 >>>> pure J >>>> chance, but it also returns all the real strings.  Why do I mention  
 >>>> this?L >>>> Because it will print out all the strings in your Ada program.  Anybody- >>>> want to take a guess at what that means?  >>> ! >>> The format is not a C string.  >>> 3 >>> The format appears to be (based on a hex dump):  >>> 
 >>> * N bytes 3 >>> * 0-7 nul bytes padding length to multipla of 8  >>> * 4 bytes with 1 >>> * 4 bytes with N >>H >> Sure looks like one to the strings command.  :-)  My point is that itG >> is not the constitution of the string that causes the problem, it is H >> the way the string is handled by the language.  As I stated, there isH >> nothing in the world stopping people from changing that constitutes aL >> "string" in C.  You can easily use the UCSD definition and make the firstH >> byte (or more, depending on the size limitation you want to impose) aG >> length indicator and then write replacements for the standard string F >> manipulation routines to deal with them.  Or use the VMS DescriptorE >> concept with the same requirement for new routines.  The source to I >> numerous C compilers are available.  One could easily make all of this F >> totally transparent to the developer.  Why has it not been done?    >> Apparently,! >> not enough people really care.  > = > Why not just use a language that handles strings correctly?   E I agree!!!  I have always been an advocate of the idea the one of the A earliest stages of true Software Engineering is picking the right E language for the job.  Programming is not "one size fits all" .  But, E sadly, most of the world does not agree with me and still chooses the E language for a project more on what is currently in vogue rahter than ) the actual capabilities of the language.     bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:48:03 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> C Subject: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server. 9 Message-ID: <2r6dnTFV69sFA6bYnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@libcom.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:  C > I didn't say it was a good thing.  I only meant to point out that C > ANSI has had  no problem in the past with changing the definition C > of a language while keeping the same name.  While many VMS people F > are sure to disagree, using BASIC for anything is a bad idea (IMHO!)  I Yeah, many will disagree with that statement.  Not interested in arguing  H the issue.  However, I'd like to know just why you'd make this comment. H   Staying away from issues such as VAX/DEC BASIC being limited to a VMS H environment, and Basic Plus being limited to RSTS/E, issues not limited = to these languages, what are your reasons for your statement?   1 >  You need never remove the old method, you just ! > discourage its use (like GOTO).   B What are your issues with GOTO?  What really gets to me is people F badmouthing something that every computer language is dependent upon. D Name just one commercial computer system that could exist without a  branch instruction.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:03:19 -0500 % From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org> C Subject: Re: Using Cobol when writing CGI's for the OSU web server. 5 Message-ID: <slrnejn92n.423.usenet@zappy.catbert.org>   b In article <2r6dnTFV69sFA6bYnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 2 >>  You need never remove the old method, you just" >> discourage its use (like GOTO). > D > What are your issues with GOTO?  What really gets to me is people H > badmouthing something that every computer language is dependent upon. F > Name just one commercial computer system that could exist without a  > branch instruction.   C Yeah, well, the issue with GOTO is that it sometimes encourages new 9 developers to use unstructured coding practices, at will.   9 GOTO by itself is not _inherently_ evil; misuse of it is.   @ With that said, GOTOs are occasionally needed even in structured! languages, in certain situations.   D Use of GOTO-type stuff for certain ISRs (interrupt service routines)C comes to mind for simplifying error code paths or for reducing byte 7 count on a particularly constrainted hardware platform.   D Still, one does not want to _encourage_ use of GOTOs as a crutch forG more structured programs that can do without them and is often cleaner.   E As to the issue with use of BASIC itself... I'm not sure I understand H where Bill is coming from and would defer further comment until I better understand his perspective.   8 (I'm honestly curious; I'm not even a BASIC programmer.)   -Dan   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.581 ************************