1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 02 Sep 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 480       Contents:5 Re: A true pre-emptive multi-tasking operating system  Authoring Tool for OpenVMS Re: Authoring Tool for OpenVMS Re: Authoring Tool for OpenVMS Re: Blue Ray Discs CDE installation" Re: Creating a bit bucket for mail Getting into VMS Re: Getting into VMS Re: Getting into VMS Re: Getting into VMS9 Re: MicroVAX I / VT180 / LSI-11/23 / LA100 in Miford, NH. 9 Re: MicroVAX I / VT180 / LSI-11/23 / LA100 in Miford, NH. 9 Re: MicroVAX I / VT180 / LSI-11/23 / LA100 in Miford, NH. , Re: Mystery multiple TCP connections dropped, Re: Mystery multiple TCP connections dropped$ OpenVMS 7.3-2 to 8.2 Upgrade WarningP Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is  dead, longP Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long P Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long P Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long P Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long P Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long  Re: Problem during boot  Re: Problem during boot ) Re: problem with file creation time stamp ) Re: problem with file creation time stamp = Scholarship for the 2007 OpenVMS Advanced Technical Boot camp 4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC4 RE: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC. Re: We're not dead yet, we're feeling better !  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2006 21:53:43 GMT  From: healyzh@aracnet.com > Subject: Re: A true pre-emptive multi-tasking operating system, Message-ID: <edaa5701c20@enews1.newsguy.com>  & toby <toby@telegraphics.com.au> wrote:I > Those with a clue avoid MS (UNIX multitasks just fine if you can't have  > VMS).   H Certain Unix varients multitask just fine, certain ones do not.  IRIX isG probably the best I've seen in that department with Solaris coming in a 2 close second.  Hardware also plays a roll in this.   Zane   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2006 21:08:26 GMT  From: healyzh@aracnet.com # Subject: Authoring Tool for OpenVMS , Message-ID: <eda7ga02973@enews3.newsguy.com>  H I'm reading over the "8.3 New Features and Documentation Overview" and I* found the following interesting statement:   ----, 9.2 Authoring Tool for OpenVMS Documentation  J OpenVMS Documentation team is continuing to introduce books that have beenL authored and published using a tool based on the Standard Generalized MarkupL Language (SGML). SGML is an industry standard and will provide many benefits/ to both the customer and OpenVMS documentation.   J Readers will notice a difference in appearance between books produced fromI SGML and others in the documentation set. This is true for HTML, PDF, and I printed formats and is a natural result of the new authoring environment.  ----  K Is this an Internal only tool, or is it available to users?  I for one have ) been looking for a way to do SGML on VMS.    		Zane   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 00:45:00 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG' Subject: Re: Authoring Tool for OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <00A5B18F.F4D06C89@SendSpamHere.ORG>  H In article <eda7ga02973@enews3.newsguy.com>, healyzh@aracnet.com writes: >  > I >I'm reading over the "8.3 New Features and Documentation Overview" and I + >found the following interesting statement:  >  >---- - >9.2 Authoring Tool for OpenVMS Documentation  > K >OpenVMS Documentation team is continuing to introduce books that have been M >authored and published using a tool based on the Standard Generalized Markup M >Language (SGML). SGML is an industry standard and will provide many benefits 0 >to both the customer and OpenVMS documentation. > K >Readers will notice a difference in appearance between books produced from J >SGML and others in the documentation set. This is true for HTML, PDF, andJ >printed formats and is a natural result of the new authoring environment. >----  > L >Is this an Internal only tool, or is it available to users?  I for one have* >been looking for a way to do SGML on VMS.   DEC Document   --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2006 01:33:13 GMT  From: healyzh@aracnet.com ' Subject: Re: Authoring Tool for OpenVMS , Message-ID: <edan0p01s9p@enews1.newsguy.com>   VAXman- wrote:J > In article <eda7ga02973@enews3.newsguy.com>, healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > >  > > K > >I'm reading over the "8.3 New Features and Documentation Overview" and I - > >found the following interesting statement:  > >  > >---- / > >9.2 Authoring Tool for OpenVMS Documentation  > > M > >OpenVMS Documentation team is continuing to introduce books that have been O > >authored and published using a tool based on the Standard Generalized Markup O > >Language (SGML). SGML is an industry standard and will provide many benefits 2 > >to both the customer and OpenVMS documentation. > > M > >Readers will notice a difference in appearance between books produced from L > >SGML and others in the documentation set. This is true for HTML, PDF, andL > >printed formats and is a natural result of the new authoring environment. > >----  > > N > >Is this an Internal only tool, or is it available to users?  I for one have, > >been looking for a way to do SGML on VMS.   > DEC Document  E DEC Document is SDML, which isn't quite the same as SGML.  I take the L section I quoted above to mean that they have moved off of DEC Document onto; something new.  I want to know what this new thing is :^)      		Zane   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 09:48:47 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> Subject: Re: Blue Ray Discs * Message-ID: <44f83a3c@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   Steve Matzura wrote:= > ...But what about minor flexing of the media?  All it would E > take is a small crack in some under-layer to ruin it, and who knows D > what knock-on effect there might be with reflections through otherH > layers on the same surface.  "Handle with care" will in all likelihood > be the order of the day...      Or just plain CD rot:  8      http://www.rdrop.com/~half/General/CDRot/CDRot.html   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2006 12:43:48 -0700  From: intensifi@earthlink.net  Subject: CDE installation A Message-ID: <1157139828.324963.18430@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>    Hello,  F After installing my hobbyist openvms 7.3 and decwindows 1.26 kit on myF vaxstation 4000/60 I'd like to transition to CDE (the basic decwindows- session manager is a bit too minimal for me).   ' I can't find any doc on how to do this.   D On the hp site that includes the decwindows install guide, there areC CDE docs on the bottom of the page, but none of them seems to be an  install/configuration page.    Any help would be appreciated.  E If there are better choices than CDE, that would also be appreciated.   
 Best regards.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 09:08:44 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>+ Subject: Re: Creating a bit bucket for mail * Message-ID: <44f830d6@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > My system is gettingI > lots of non delivery messages for messages apparently sent by my system , > from non-existant username on my machine.   I    That can be a spam run, I've been hit with a few of those -- messages  L arriving faster than they could be deleted, but it tails off in a couple of L hours.  The last such run I recall had a bounce message arrival rate of one  every one to two seconds.   P    Alternatively, you could be the target of a DoS or DDoS attack, which may or O may not tail off.  There are folks around that -- when they get annoyed -- can  L effectively (and unfortunately) knock a whole domain off the 'net.  (Though M using SMTP would indicate only low-level annoyance with you, and not serious   annoyance.)   N    There's no bitbucket I'm aware of within TCP/IP Services, though there are H various ways to implement one.  The simplest is to allow the mail to be O delivered (to the postmaster username, which is what I expect you are seeing),  N then delete it.  As was mentioned earlier, DELIVER can deal with this sort of O thing.  Somewhat fancier would be a connection in as a transport image, or the  0 use of a spam filter or a spam-capable firewall.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2006 12:07:28 -0700  From: faceman28208@yahoo.com Subject: Getting into VMS C Message-ID: <1157137648.049250.235780@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   F While going Wikipedia looking for some work-related material I clickedG off a few links and ended up on the VMS world. I have not touched a VMS + system in over a decade (since I left DEC).   G I noticed that many of the things Digital used to keep under locked and F key (e.g. SDL) or made difficult for customers to use (e.g. BLISS) areG freely available. I see there is a hobbyist program as well. I see that & Alpha is dead and VMS has been ported.  D Let's suppose that I wanted to buy/build a VMS, can one be had for aA reasonable price? (Or is it like the old days when DEC gouged its ) customers in its quest for high margins.)   1 How would one get a home VMS system these days???   B Do you have to get some special HP System or has HP had the common/ sense to open up VMS to off-the-shelf hardware?   F I used to have a Vaxstation 3100 at home back in the days when I was aF Digit. I remember how difficult DEC made it for employees to buy a VMS system.   D After all these years of working on M$-DOG and Eunuchs it is amazingG how far we have regressed since the height of VMS. One can only imagine C where the industry could have been now if Digital had had some real  management.    >From the olde days:F Q: What's the difference between Digital Equipment and the Boy Scouts?) A: The Boy Scouts have adult supervision.    g,   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:59:01 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  Subject: Re: Getting into VMS < Message-ID: <44f8abb5$0$24167$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>  * <faceman28208@yahoo.com> wrote in message = news:1157137648.049250.235780@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... H > While going Wikipedia looking for some work-related material I clickedI > off a few links and ended up on the VMS world. I have not touched a VMS - > system in over a decade (since I left DEC).  > I > I noticed that many of the things Digital used to keep under locked and H > key (e.g. SDL) or made difficult for customers to use (e.g. BLISS) areI > freely available. I see there is a hobbyist program as well. I see that ( > Alpha is dead and VMS has been ported. > F > Let's suppose that I wanted to buy/build a VMS, can one be had for aC > reasonable price? (Or is it like the old days when DEC gouged its + > customers in its quest for high margins.)  > 3 > How would one get a home VMS system these days???  > D > Do you have to get some special HP System or has HP had the common1 > sense to open up VMS to off-the-shelf hardware?  > H > I used to have a Vaxstation 3100 at home back in the days when I was aH > Digit. I remember how difficult DEC made it for employees to buy a VMS	 > system.  > F > After all these years of working on M$-DOG and Eunuchs it is amazingI > how far we have regressed since the height of VMS. One can only imagine E > where the industry could have been now if Digital had had some real 
 > management.  >  >>From the olde days: H > Q: What's the difference between Digital Equipment and the Boy Scouts?+ > A: The Boy Scouts have adult supervision.  >   H Step 1) decide whether you want to run on VAX, Alpha, Itanium, or PC. I M personally would try to buy a used Alpha on eBay. If you want to run on a PC  K then you'll need to also buy a hardware simulator. This link is probably a  / good starting point: http://www.softresint.com/   K Step 2) get a legal copy of OpenVMS along with some cool development tools  M like compliers. The best way to do this is with a hobbyist license available  % here: http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/   > Step 3) come back to this news group if you need any more help  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html9 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:28:15 -0500 % From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org>  Subject: Re: Getting into VMS 5 Message-ID: <slrnefhcvv.hok.usenet@zappy.catbert.org>   e In article <44f8abb5$0$24167$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote:  > G > Step 1) decide whether you want to run on VAX, Alpha, Itanium, or PC.   H > I personally would try to buy a used Alpha on eBay. If you want to runF > on a PC then you'll need to also buy a hardware simulator. This link? > is probably a good starting point: http://www.softresint.com/   < ...or the free SIMH emulator by a former DECcie, Bob Supnik.   http://simh.trailing-edge.com   + (Runs under various UNIX OSes and Windows.)   @ CHARON-VAX (for VAX emulation) from SRI is the better performingC emulator, but the free version of C-V has limitations (e.g. memory,  virtual disk).  F In either case, installation of VMS is quick and painless. The longestC part of the process will probably be to get the license PAKs if you ? don't already have at least an associate (free) membership with 
 Encompass.  G If installation media is needed, you can purchase one for a nominal fee 7 via the openvmshobbyist.org website or ask nicely here.   H I would second the used Alpha on eBay. They're generally affordable, andB popular models for home use are PWS433au, PWS600au, DS10L, XP1000.  @ You can also purchase one of these (often on a special sale with? discounts) from places that sells a lot of DEC gear like Island & Computers [ http://www.islandco.com ].   -Dan  6 P.S. the SRI software is also done by a former DECcie.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:21:41 -0400 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> Subject: Re: Getting into VMS + Message-ID: <Fn2Kg.4591$_q4.952@dukeread09>    faceman28208@yahoo.com wrote: F > Let's suppose that I wanted to buy/build a VMS, can one be had for aC > reasonable price? (Or is it like the old days when DEC gouged its + > customers in its quest for high margins.)  > 3 > How would one get a home VMS system these days???    www.islandco.com www.openvmshobbyist.com    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 14:20:10 -0400 - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> B Subject: Re: MicroVAX I / VT180 / LSI-11/23 / LA100 in Miford, NH.; Message-ID: <MLWdnSUbu4pG5GXZnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d@adelphia.com>    John E. Malmberg wrote:  > Basement cleaning time.  > > > For the first person that can pick these up from Milford NH: > ? > LA100 with stand, and some spare ribbons in sealed container.  > D > VT-180 with some software, 4 floppy drives, and some spare parts. 4 > Software appears to be CP/M and some applications. > J > LSI-11/23 in narrow pedestal mount.  I never powered it up, so I do not 6 > know if it works.  It appears to have a deqna in it. > H > Microvax I, was formerly a VAXstation I, however the smoke got out of A > the graphics card.  Then the RD53 died and I never installed a  H > replacement RD54.  Dead graphics card set and monitor also available. J > Delqua and replacement RD54s (unknown condition) are included.  This is K > also in the narrow pedistal.  It has a RX50 that is appears bad.  I have  J > two other RX50s drives that are of unknown condition, and pre-formatted > > floppies for it.  I think I have an RQDX3 controller for it. > = > De-mung my e-mail address to contact me to arrange pick up.   H No one here is interested in saving these antiques from going for scrap?   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:39:09 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> B Subject: Re: MicroVAX I / VT180 / LSI-11/23 / LA100 in Miford, NH.A Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060901123834.030c7178@raptor.psccos.com>   I Would love the whole thing...but Colorado is pretty far from NH...I have  J contacts that could pick them up, but getting them here is another matter!  - At 12:20 PM 9/1/2006, John E. Malmberg wrote:  >John E. Malmberg wrote: >>Basement cleaning time. > >>For the first person that can pick these up from Milford NH:? >>LA100 with stand, and some spare ribbons in sealed container. D >>VT-180 with some software, 4 floppy drives, and some spare parts. 4 >>Software appears to be CP/M and some applications.J >>LSI-11/23 in narrow pedestal mount.  I never powered it up, so I do not 6 >>know if it works.  It appears to have a deqna in it.L >>Microvax I, was formerly a VAXstation I, however the smoke got out of the I >>graphics card.  Then the RD53 died and I never installed a replacement  G >>RD54.  Dead graphics card set and monitor also available. Delqua and  K >>replacement RD54s (unknown condition) are included.  This is also in the  I >>narrow pedistal.  It has a RX50 that is appears bad.  I have two other  I >>RX50s drives that are of unknown condition, and pre-formatted floppies  5 >>for it.  I think I have an RQDX3 controller for it. = >>De-mung my e-mail address to contact me to arrange pick up.  > I >No one here is interested in saving these antiques from going for scrap?  >  >-John >wb8tyw@qsl.network  >Personal Opinion Only   ------J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+J | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |J | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |J | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |J | http://www.process.com        |                                        |J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2006 11:56:26 -0700 ; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> B Subject: Re: MicroVAX I / VT180 / LSI-11/23 / LA100 in Miford, NH.C Message-ID: <1157136986.455674.125500@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    Dan O'Reilly wrote: J > Would love the whole thing...but Colorado is pretty far from NH...I haveL > contacts that could pick them up, but getting them here is another matter! > / > At 12:20 PM 9/1/2006, John E. Malmberg wrote:  > >John E. Malmberg wrote: > >>Basement cleaning time. @ > >>For the first person that can pick these up from Milford NH:A > >>LA100 with stand, and some spare ribbons in sealed container. E > >>VT-180 with some software, 4 floppy drives, and some spare parts. 6 > >>Software appears to be CP/M and some applications.K > >>LSI-11/23 in narrow pedestal mount.  I never powered it up, so I do not 8 > >>know if it works.  It appears to have a deqna in it.M > >>Microvax I, was formerly a VAXstation I, however the smoke got out of the J > >>graphics card.  Then the RD53 died and I never installed a replacementH > >>RD54.  Dead graphics card set and monitor also available. Delqua andL > >>replacement RD54s (unknown condition) are included.  This is also in theJ > >>narrow pedistal.  It has a RX50 that is appears bad.  I have two otherJ > >>RX50s drives that are of unknown condition, and pre-formatted floppies7 > >>for it.  I think I have an RQDX3 controller for it. ? > >>De-mung my e-mail address to contact me to arrange pick up.  > > K > >No one here is interested in saving these antiques from going for scrap?  > >  > >-John > >wb8tyw@qsl.network  > >Personal Opinion Only >  > ------L > +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+L > | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |L > | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |L > | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |L > | http://www.process.com        |                                        |L > +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+  F I thought about it too, but it's an 1800 mile round trip.  I'd love toG see that part of the country though.  Especially the DEC homelands.  Oh  well.  One day.      John H. Reinhardt    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:05:15 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 5 Subject: Re: Mystery multiple TCP connections dropped , Message-ID: <44F8927A.238BEAA8@teksavvy.com>  
 AEF wrote:' > The code is written in Pascal, not C.   H Yep, but you had mentioned "standard calls" and for TCPIP, those are the; "C" socket calls. ... (thos would be callable from pascal).   G > The code (VAX side) used to be able to handle only one connection. If A > that connection died, the program would exit. Now, it takes all $ > connections to die to do the same.  D OK, since the box at the other end of a connection is a Windows box,F have you investigated the possibility that the problem would be on theF Windows side of things, with Windows forgetting about that link and noF longer doing acks/whatever or dropping the link for some reason ? (the< application on Windows might or might not be aware of this).    > Thanks again for your efforts.  F 99% of our efforts will not contain the answer. But in order to get toG that last 1% that will have the answer, we have to go through the paces L of eliminating that 99% of things that are not the cause of your problem :-)   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2006 16:17:00 -0700 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>5 Subject: Re: Mystery multiple TCP connections dropped B Message-ID: <1157152620.727967.27030@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > AEF wrote:) > > The code is written in Pascal, not C.  > J > Yep, but you had mentioned "standard calls" and for TCPIP, those are the= > "C" socket calls. ... (thos would be callable from pascal).  > I > > The code (VAX side) used to be able to handle only one connection. If C > > that connection died, the program would exit. Now, it takes all & > > connections to die to do the same. > F > OK, since the box at the other end of a connection is a Windows box,H > have you investigated the possibility that the problem would be on theH > Windows side of things, with Windows forgetting about that link and noH > longer doing acks/whatever or dropping the link for some reason ? (the> > application on Windows might or might not be aware of this).  D I find this unlikely since three Windows boxes were involved and two; connections to each all dropped pretty much simultaneously.    > " > > Thanks again for your efforts. > H > 99% of our efforts will not contain the answer. But in order to get toI > that last 1% that will have the answer, we have to go through the paces N > of eliminating that 99% of things that are not the cause of your problem :-)  : Well, it's not Pluto's demotion! We can rule that out. &-)   AEF    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:52:05 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> - Subject: OpenVMS 7.3-2 to 8.2 Upgrade Warning < Message-ID: <44f8c62b$0$24204$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>   Folks,  = This is not a complaint, just a "heads-up" for TCPware users.   K In the past 24 hours I've updated two Alphas from OpenVMS-7.3-2 (Update 7)  J to OpenVMS-8.2 and the existing TCPware-5.7-2 stack was rendered unusable M both times. The 9600 baud serial console was very busy and I was not able to  L login after 5 minutes. The only way to get control of things was to hit the J reset button, do a conversational boot to come up in MIN mode the disable K TCPware startup. After this I was able to boot normally to perform a quick  ( TCPware reinstall (no need to reconfig).  L If you're doing a similar upgrade and want to save some time, make sure you L disable TCPware startup in "sys$manager:systartup_vms.com" before you start 
 your upgrade.   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada." http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 15:59:10 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> Y Subject: Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is  dead, long , Message-ID: <44F8910E.EF16493F@teksavvy.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:F > You are talking about ways to "hide" I.E. Actually removing from the> > system is akin to a brain transplant in terms of complexity.  E What about DELETE EXPLORER.EXE or whatever executable is invoked when / you start that Microsoft thing that does HTTP ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:07:11 -0700 * From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos-remove.com>Y Subject: Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long  ) Message-ID: <op.te72h9wette90l@hyrrokkin>   L On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 06:43:38 -0700, Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>   wrote:   > bradhamilton wrote:  > , >> "Strawman" - it *is* easy to "remove" IE:2 >>  - Run any number of other browsers besides IE.K >>  - It's easy to remove all IE shortcuts and icons from the desktop and   L >> menu bars, and to change browser preferences, such that the only way to  K >> run IE is to hunt it down and deliberately let it kill your system.       >> :-) > J >    Microsoft embedded IE all through Windows -- what started out as an  L > add-on product became entrenched throughout the operating system.  Fully   > removing it is not easy. > I >    I regularly use other web browsers -- once you've used Firefox and   I > other such newer browsers, the age of IE6 tends to show  -- but there   E > are still IE-related vulnerabilities around, and parts of Windows   L > certainly still seem to be using IE for various tasks.  (I should go try  L > Windows Update, and see if I can get that to run without using IE.)  IE7  L > looks to improve a number of the features and capabilities over IE6, and  J > it fixes various of the CSS and related bugs.  (Donno if the box model  B > bugs got fixed -- some parsing bugs got fixed, which meant the  6 > workarounds for the box model bugs started to fail.) > G BTW,  as a word of caution I have a couple of W2k Servers, one custom    built byL yours truly from off-the-shelf parts and the other a Poweredge from Dell.    The F former is based on an Abit BP6 with dual Celeron 366 clocked at 600,   adaptec K scsi raid and the latter has builtin scsi raid.  The former I can no longer L update from Microsoft and the latter I just updated yesterday to find that   itI modifies the Bios (turned off Raid) so it would no longer boot,  so you    haveL to pop the drives for safety modify the Bios, power down, insert drive and  	 power up. F Since these are not on routable IPs I will probably no longer update  C them.  I have a number of tools I use on them Photoshop, Autocad,    correpsondence, etc        --  E Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 09:43:38 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>Y Subject: Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long  * Message-ID: <44f8390a@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   bradhamilton wrote:   + > "Strawman" - it *is* easy to "remove" IE:  > 0 > - Run any number of other browsers besides IE. > H > - It's easy to remove all IE shortcuts and icons from the desktop and J > menu bars, and to change browser preferences, such that the only way to L > run IE is to hunt it down and deliberately let it kill your system.    :-)  N    Microsoft embedded IE all through Windows -- what started out as an add-on Q product became entrenched throughout the operating system.  Fully removing it is  	 not easy.   Q    I regularly use other web browsers -- once you've used Firefox and other such  P newer browsers, the age of IE6 tends to show  -- but there are still IE-related Q vulnerabilities around, and parts of Windows certainly still seem to be using IE  O for various tasks.  (I should go try Windows Update, and see if I can get that  M to run without using IE.)  IE7 looks to improve a number of the features and  Q capabilities over IE6, and it fixes various of the CSS and related bugs.  (Donno  P if the box model bugs got fixed -- some parsing bugs got fixed, which meant the 4 workarounds for the box model bugs started to fail.)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:38:51 -0400/ From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> Y Subject: Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long  I Message-ID: <8660a3a10609011238n6dad4fa3xd9508ba7828788f3@mail.gmail.com>   8 On 9/1/06, Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> wrote: > bradhamilton wrote:  > - > > "Strawman" - it *is* easy to "remove" IE:  > > 2 > > - Run any number of other browsers besides IE. > > I > > - It's easy to remove all IE shortcuts and icons from the desktop and K > > menu bars, and to change browser preferences, such that the only way to N > > run IE is to hunt it down and deliberately let it kill your system.    :-) > O >    Microsoft embedded IE all through Windows -- what started out as an add-on R > product became entrenched throughout the operating system.  Fully removing it is > not easy.  > R >    I regularly use other web browsers -- once you've used Firefox and other suchQ > newer browsers, the age of IE6 tends to show  -- but there are still IE-related R > vulnerabilities around, and parts of Windows certainly still seem to be using IEP > for various tasks.  (I should go try Windows Update, and see if I can get thatN > to run without using IE.)  IE7 looks to improve a number of the features andR > capabilities over IE6, and it fixes various of the CSS and related bugs.  (DonnoQ > if the box model bugs got fixed -- some parsing bugs got fixed, which meant the 6 > workarounds for the box model bugs started to fail.) >  >  >  >  >  >   D For those who are interested in IE-free Windows, there's a guy namedD Fred Vorck who devotes a website to how to do so, plus slipstreaming3 service packs and hotfixes into an installation CD.    http://www.vorck.com   WWWebb --  ! I'm no longer job-hunting, folks.   F Thanks to all those who expressed concern and sent me possibilities to investigate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:05:57 -0400 - From: bradhamilton <bradhamilton@comcast.net> Y Subject: Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long  * Message-ID: <44F8AEC5.4090206@comcast.net>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:  [...] G >   I regularly use other web browsers -- once you've used Firefox and  H > other such newer browsers, the age of IE6 tends to show  -- but there D > are still IE-related vulnerabilities around, and parts of Windows K > certainly still seem to be using IE for various tasks.  (I should go try  G > Windows Update, and see if I can get that to run without using IE.)     I The last time I checked, it's not possible to run WU without IE.  That's  I the only reason to keep IE on a Windows box (not to mention enjoying the  G delicious irony of *needing* to run a potentially insecure application  @ in order to keep the underlying "O/S" (GUI add-on?) secure).	:-)   [...]    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:20:42 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>Y Subject: Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long  G Message-ID: <0LOdnbBu-6umL2XZnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    bradhamilton wrote:  > Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > [...] H >>   I regularly use other web browsers -- once you've used Firefox and I >> other such newer browsers, the age of IE6 tends to show  -- but there  E >> are still IE-related vulnerabilities around, and parts of Windows  H >> certainly still seem to be using IE for various tasks.  (I should go L >> try Windows Update, and see if I can get that to run without using IE.)   > B > The last time I checked, it's not possible to run WU without IE.  F Indeed - and there are a few other microsoft.com Web pages that won't  accept substitutes either.  A But a lot of them like Firefox just fine, even most of the patch  I descriptions and downloads (i.e., while you can't get your PC scanned to  I find out what it needs in the way of updates, if you already *know* what  D it needs - say, by having read the monthly patch bulletin - you can , usually find it, download it, and apply it).  B So I only run WU on IE once in a while to make sure I didn't miss I anything important.  (No, I don't use the automated update feature:  I'm  C not masochistic, nor do I particularly care for its intrusiveness.)    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 09:24:43 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>  Subject: Re: Problem during boot* Message-ID: <44f83498@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   alok wrote:   A > I have a VAX system that has been running fine for long years.    K    And when was the last verification of a full system disk BACKUP, with a  O standalone BACKUP for the system disk and for any application files that can't  N otherwise be captured by BACKUP.  This obviously and certainly isn't what you L had intended to look at here, but this situation and this question is often P indicative of a case where the correctness and completeness of any BACKUP -- if ? there are any BACKUPs presently underway -- should be verified.   P    I'd also look at other housekeeping, such as the fragmentation levels of the K disks (which can be remediated by restoring a full standalone BACKUP, this  Q performing two tasks at once) and at the necessity of any CONVERT operations for  M active indexed files; to clean the fragmentation and cruft that can build up   over the years.   O    OpenVMS VAX systems (and what's the version here, BTW?) are low-maintenance  N systems, and can run themselves quietly for years.  But they're certainly not  zero-maintenance systems.   6 > But today it has got a problem during boot. it shows > B > % delete - W- file not deleted. It was indicating that the file:E > SYS$SYSROOT:[SYS$STARTUP]ESS$LAST_STARTUP.TMP could not be deleted.   -    There's usually another message with that.   N    If it's a protection error, then there are a couple of approaches.  Within G the SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM procedure, you could use the SET SECURITY or SET  M PROTECTION command (as you did) to pre-emptively alter the file protections.  J That's often the easiest.  The other is to remove the DELETE command, and M replace it with the use of a file version limit on the temporary file.  (SET   FILE/VERSION_LIMIT)    > Also > I > DCL-E_OPENIN, error opening SYS$SYSROOT : [SYSMGR]ESS$LAST_STARTUP.LOG; 
 > as input4 > -RMS-E-FLK, file currently locked by another user. > E > I noticed that the protection of the file: ESS$LAST_STARTUP.TMP was E > (RWED,RWED,RE,RE).   I changed it to (RWED,RWED,RWED,RWED).  On the   > next reboot, the Vax normally. > . > How can the protaction of file be changed  ?  Q    That file would have been deleted correctly, and the file lock is not related  P to the file protections.  I'd tend to assume that the file deletion was delayed O until after the associated software had started up (and before it had exited),  P and this caused the log file to be locked by an active ESS (LAD/LAST InfoServer G services) startup process.  When next you had rebooted, the timing was  6 different, and the file was not locked by the startup.  P    Again, these warnings are basically harmless.  But I'd take this opportunity N to examine and verify far more critical system operations, such as the status O and integrity of the system BACKUPs, and on on-going maintenance tasks such as  Q defragmentation and indexed file CONVERTs, and at the hardware status and at any  M errors that might be being logged.  (And at the age of the system and of the  N storage, as rotating media does eventually and almost inevitably fail.  Which H means you should have plans for remediation and recovery, at a minimum.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 15:53:48 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   Subject: Re: Problem during boot, Message-ID: <44F88FCC.C4FB0ED4@teksavvy.com>   alok wrote: B > % delete - W- file not deleted. It was indicating that the file:E > SYS$SYSROOT:[SYS$STARTUP]ESS$LAST_STARTUP.TMP could not be deleted.  >  > Also > I > DCL-E_OPENIN, error opening SYS$SYSROOT : [SYSMGR]ESS$LAST_STARTUP.LOG;  > as > input  > 4 > -RMS-E-FLK, file currently locked by another user.    G Your startup procedure may be running this twice (or more). You need to D check the number of versions allowed for this file/directory. If youG only allow one version, then the second isntance of a job, in trying to G create its own log file or temporary file, will be forced to delete the D previous version of the file and if the later is still in use by theP other instance of the job, it will fail. So it isn't just about file protection.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2006 10:42:04 -0700 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>2 Subject: Re: problem with file creation time stamp@ Message-ID: <1157132524.053204.5240@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   alok wrote:  > Hi > E > is it possible in VAX VMS that only the file creation time stamp is  > changed but not the  > content of file.   yes.   > E > Suppose a Log file is created on year 1995 by a command file. Since F > then command file loggs some messages in that log file . but today iI > noticed that the File creation time stamp has changed to today's date & 7 > still the content of file is there . Is it possible ?    yes. You just told us. (!)  5 Is the version number of the file the same as before?   * Is the FID of the file the same as before?  / What is the nature of the content of this file?   > The output of DIR/FULL on this file (both before and after, if possible) would be helpful.    AEF    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 09:57:44 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>2 Subject: Re: problem with file creation time stamp* Message-ID: <44f83c5a@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   alok wrote:   E > is it possible in VAX VMS that only the file creation time stamp is & > changed but not the content of file.  N    On any system and on any media using any storage media other than hardware O write-once media, yes.  Data is data and writable storage is writable storage,  , and data on writable storage can be changed.  E > Suppose a Log file is created on year 1995 by a command file. Since F > then command file loggs some messages in that log file . but today iI > noticed that the File creation time stamp has changed to today's date & 7 > still the content of file is there . Is it possible ?   A    Yes.  But I'd not expect it to happen under normal operations.   P    Changing the creation date is feasible via various tools, but I'd not expect N there to be a particular reason to change the creation date on this log file. Q Well, it's certainly quite possible that somebody hacked into the system and was  Q looking to cover some tracks that had been present in the old version of the log  P file.  (This depends on what sort of information is in the log file, obviously.)  M    It's also possible that certain user or system management operations will  Q create a new version of the file (or a new copy), and the existing contents will  O be replicated and will remain present within the file.  This can mimic changes  % to the file creation date, obviously.    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2006 20:23:04 -0700 ) From: "Sue" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> F Subject: Scholarship for the 2007 OpenVMS Advanced Technical Boot campB Message-ID: <1157167384.158946.186350@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   Dear Newsgroup,   G As with the 2006 Boot Camp there will be several different scholarships ! available for the 2007 boot camp.   F The 2007 OpenVMS Advanced Technical Boot Camp will be held the week of May 21st  G One of the scholarships that will be awarded is for End User (Customer)  Integrity Testimonials.   C If you are interested in finding out details about this scholarship F please send	me email at my hp address which is my first name Susan and my last name Skonetski @ hp.com   C These public testimonials allow us to communicate a winning OpenVMS D customer scenario to the world and we appreciate your participation.      
 Warm Regards,  Sue    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2006 11:00:08 -0700 - From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> = Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC C Message-ID: <1157133608.820214.162480@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Bill Todd wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: >  > ...  > K > >> The DS15 with 1x 1GHz Alpha  with 1GB of RAM and 1 internal drive with  > >> Tru64 costs $10900  > >> > > . > > For VMS base, make that closer to $12,000. > I > Say, what?  Last I knew, the least expensive DS10s cost only about half E > that - and the DS15 doesn't seem to be much more than a DS10 with a I > minor face lift (still EV6x-based, at any rate, so there's no "But EV7s @ > cost *so much* more to produce!" blather to have to discount). > . > Can you say 'cash cow'?  I knew you could... >   @ I quoted HP list price from the configurator. I just looked, andD Islandco is selling a base VMS +Networking licensed DS15 (EV68) with  2GB mem and 36GB disk for $9100.  F You still must add user licenses and whatever else you need additional3 to what you can move them over from another system.    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2006 10:51:21 -0700 - From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> = Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC C Message-ID: <1157133078.844089.265630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>    Main, Kerry wrote: > > -----Original Message-----6 > > From: Doug Phillips [mailto:dphill46@netscape.net]! > > Sent: August 31, 2006 8:22 PM  > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com A > > Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC  > >  >  > [snip ...] > C > > > > Being a loyal DEC-Compaq-HP customer from way-back, he went  > > > > to HP's web I > > > > site and tried to option out a Win2k3 server. After an hour or so H > > > > struggling (and calling me at least twice) and never getting theG > > > > screens to process correctly, he went over to the Dell site and A > > > > configured two servers in about 10 minutes. The site gave  > > him a niceA > > > > comparison and after talking to me for a few minutes (and  > > sending meA > > > > the links) he ordered one. It arrived within a week and I  > > installed it< > > > > the next. Other than a few issues getting it to play > > nicely with his @ > > > > Alpha running OpenVMS Advanced Server, it came right up. > > > > A > > > > Been running fine, doing its job, and haven't rebooted it  > > for months.  > > > >  > > >  > > > : > > > Having stated that, then this Cust has obviously not > > installed many of ? > > > the 5-20 *security* patches that come out every month for  > > Windows/Linux. > > >  > > 7 > > You apparently haven't actually looked at the "5-20  > > *security* patches" ? > > that come out every month for Windows. Most are for desktop > > > applications, and most of the ones that do apply to server > > are specific) > > to certain applications or functions.  > >  > 
 > Like IE? > G > Ever try removing IE from any Windows system - workstation or server?  > * > It's a great exercise - try it sometime. >  > :-)   G Not much browsing done on the server. And, just because IE is installed   doesn't mean you have to use it.   > J > > It is not advisable to use a server as a workstation and people who do( > > so place themselves at greater risk. > > J > > A firewall/AV protected server that has stable usage will contiinue toE > > be secure until that environment changes. There have been patches G > > applied that did not require a reboot, and the  firewall and AV are  > > kept up-to-date. > >  > F > Remember that 60% of most security issues are from internal sources. >   E Maybe even more than 60%. That's a number that's hard to prove, but I E suspect (without proof, gut feeling based on experience) that it'd be G closer to 80%. Maybe higher if you consider an incorrect system setting 9 that opens an external hole as having an internal source.   A > > I review the patches as they are released, and will apply the 
 > > ones that > > > I feel might be worthwhile. If one requires a reboot, then > > that will be@ > > scheduled. Server updates are different than desktop updates > > and should@ > > not automatically cause a reboot like the desktops often do. > > J > > I also review the 5-20 OpenVMS patches that come out monthly and apply > > those as needed. > >  > J > The 5-20 patches per month I am referring to are *security* patches, not > bug fixes. >   G Bugs are bugs. Some bite harder than others, but they're all bugs. Some C live only in certain environments, others are global. I don't worry A about scorpions where I live, but ants can sure be a nuisanse. My A Windows servers don't have problems with desktop software patches  because they don't run any.   I > Exponential difference in terms of whether one applies them or not. Bug E > patches can be put off. Most SysAdmins will not risk not applying a I > security patch as long as it even remotely seems like it might apply to D > them.  And keep in mind that most companies today want standard OSB > images, so that means even more testing is required as the App's& > potentially impacted is even larger. >   C I agree. Most "big" windows servers running "big" applications like A database or transaction processing which aren't written in-house. B They're purchased from "big" software companies whose job it is toA understand how their application works with the operating system.   ? > > I'd imagine my procedures are not too different from others  > > who work in  > > a similar environment. > >  > C > It sounds like you have a small environment and you maintain your I > systems as you feel it necessitates. That is fine and certainly nothing  > wrong with that. >   G The subject site is indeed a "small" environment. One Win2k3 server and  one VMS server.   H > Question - Do you QA/test your important applications before releasing@ > patches into production or do you simply hope they will be ok? >   G No custom or in-house developed software runs on the Win2k3 server. All ? non-packaged applications run on the VMS server, and (with rare E exception) VMS patches & new releases are not installed on production > systems until they have ripened, been tested and proven sound.  A > > > That's certainly a big risk - perhaps the app or their data  > > integrity or$ > > > privacy is not very important? > > >  > > = > > Or, maybe we understand our system better than you think.  > >  > H > No, I don't think so. You seem to have a small environment which meansD > manually patching and testing patches with your applications has a1 > minimal impact on you. Nothing wrong with that.  >   G Yes, this is a small environment. The majority of Windows servers exist A in small environments; whether it be small company, department or C workgroup of a large to mid-sized company. The large Windows server ? installations --- where Windows is the only server, running all F applications --- are (from what I see) a small percentage of the total server population.  D > However, with larger environments, operation costs associated withF > testing security patches with applications are a huge cost at a timeH > when BU's are screaming at IT to reduce their costs (or get outsourced > is the implication). >   B Most large Windows server environments are running special purposeA applications, databases, etc. These are normally developed by and E purchased, along with support, from vendors who spend a great deal of E time certifying their stuff for various environments. Often, security G patches come from those providers. Maybe your Windows server experience  has been different.   = VMS, more often than Windows, runs more in-house developed or A customized packaged  applications as well as existing in back-end E environments. That's one of the problems that VMS has faced for quite F some time; end-user companies moving from developing in-house & custom to buying packaged software.  F > SysAdmin 101 - if you have an important application, then you do notH > release any patches (security or bug) without testing that applicationH > with the new patches. With 5-20 *security* (not bug) patches per monthF > on Windows/Linux, the effort and costs are huge if you have numerousF > applications and servers. And wrt to whether they are workstation orI > server security issues, keep in mind that the most popular applications F > being hacked (like IE) to get full priv's also exist on the servers. >   B But, servers should not often use IE because servers should not beE browsing the internet --- except for occasional maintenance purposes, G and Firefox runs quite nicely on Windows. The fact that software exists B on the server is not usually a problem; the problem comes when the software is used.   E I guess I've not encountered a Windows server environment such as you 	 describe.    > Something to consider: > http://tinyurl.com/mhohrI > "On August 8, 2006, Microsoft releases its monthly security bulletins." G > http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/update/bulletins/200608.mspx " > (Aug Windows Security bulletins)  E You should dig deeper into those patches to see what they really are.    > A > Does anyone besides me not see an issue with "monthly" security  > bulletins? >   F The patches come out more often. Remember: Most of the Windows patchesC are needed because of problems in the plethora of layered software. D Many of the problems can be traced to the complexity of Windows GUI.' Two problems that OpenVMS doesn't have.   A I can't fault anyone for defending VMS --- I've certainly done it E myself --- but keeping things within the plane of reality rather that ; bobing things around always makes the better argument, IMO.    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2006 14:50:37 -0700  From: faceman28208@yahoo.com= Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC B Message-ID: <1157147437.150915.111850@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>   JF Mezei wrote: E > I finished reading it. The first half could have been condensed as:  >   & I can give the view from the trenches.  G 1. DEC was an unmangement company. There simply was no real management. G Evaluations were by-the-numbers or the "metrics". DEC wanted to be able 0 to create a formula that would measure managers.  E Managers "managed up" rather than their employees. I had the same 3rd G level manager for 7 years. During that time I *SAW* him three times. In E all of the companies I have workers for since I speak with that level ( of manager on the order of once a month.  B Not only did the managers not care what the people under them wereF doing, in many cases they did not want to know. You were lucky if your- first level manager knew what you were doing.   F You were lucky if your second level manager cared what you were doing.> If your third level manager knew your name, you must have done something really bad.   E The management by numbers bred people who were good at playing games, E people who would do things for the immediate term that would kill the  company over the short term.  G 2. There was an abundance of managers. I have never worked at a company ( with so many layers of mangement as DEC.  G 3. Fiedoms. The problem was so bad that we Digital had managers setting F up facilities in odd locations to meet their personal needs. Under theB guise of being closer to the financial industry, Digital set up an@ engineering organization to support it in.......Delaware. PurelyE coincidentally, the VP in charge's husband had been made president of G U. Del. To be closer to Latin America, DEC set up a facility to support C that area....not near the Miami Airport....but just outside of Boca G Raton....apparently the VP in charge wanted to retire their. DEC set up C a corporate training facility....near Atlanta....home of one of the D nation's busiest airports....sound's perfect....but the facility wasF set up in Alpheretta on the opposite side town from the airport makingB it inconvenient for customers. (Rumor had it the VP who set up the# facility had a farm in Alpharetta.)   C One of the things that was hilarious is that various business units F would count the same money. For example, if you sold a printer as partC of a custom software project that included maintenance, you had the F printer folks, the local PSS folks, the systems integration folks, theD local sales folks, and the field service folks all counting the same money as revenue to them.   B 4. Dipping the pen in the company ink.-- I've never seen a companyG where so many managers were boinking their employees (literally). Using E corporate resources to carry on extramarital affairs was accepted and 5 tolerated. I've never seen that at any other company.   B 5. In the customer delivery area we were woefully short of skilledD people. Digital was unable to provide customers with people who knewF their products.(And due to the "metrics" was unwilling to hire skilled people and train them.)   E 6. Problem #5 was compounded by the fact that in the customer contact A areas, due to the fact the "metrics" covered margin, there was no A investment in equipment. You were expected to help customers with G machines you had never seen and have 10 developers doing development on  one Microvax II.  G In contrast, when I worked in a couple of engineering groups they would ; have spare equipment sitting in storage waiting to be used.   E 7. Problem #5 was further complicated by problem #1. Not only were we F woefully short of skilled people, the management had no clue as to whoC their skilled people were. Being a BS Artiste was the best route to 
 promotion.  D 8. Digital had an image problem. The company refused to advertise on@ television. In spite of the fact it was the 2nd largest computerE company, many people had no idea who we were. The Massachusetts Mafia G never understood this problem because every back road in that state had  a digital office.   A 9. Customer value - Digital was determined to hold on to hardware D margins no matter what the cost....right down to the collapse of theE company. In order to compete with workstations from other vendors DEC F put out the VAXstation II that was a Microvax with glue in some of theD backplane slots so that it could not be expanded. Screw the customer rather than maximizing value.   F Anyone remember the BI Bus fiasco? We couldn't give away 8700s becauseG Digital wanted to screw the customer by forcing them to buy peripherals ( through them (or limited other sources).  E I remember the sales material that said a Microvax 2000 could support C 30 All-in-one users. DEC would come up with ridiculous figures like . that to justify the ridiculous hardware costs.  C Keeping with the customer value....I remember all the headaches DEC D caused with the moronic license PAK scheme it came up with. "To helpC the customer manage their licenses" we told them as we screwed them  with that useless headache.   G Even when it came to services, Digital insisted upon margin rather than  volume.   G 10. Poor sales. In many cases you had to beg your sales rep "Sell it to F me please." Our non-commissioned sales staff had no incentive to sell.  @ 11. People make much Digital's PC problems. However, what if theD MicroVax had become the PC and Digital were making $200 off of everyC copy of VMS. Again, Digital never understood volume -- only margin.   G 12. Digital's HR was incompetent. They could neither bring in qualified @ people nor did Digital have a system in place to transfer peopleC internally. Yeh, jobs were posted but the whole thing was a joke. I G never saw nor heard of anyone getting a response from a job posting. In D order to change jobs in Digial, you had to know someone in the other group.  F 13. Does anyone remember logo on the business cards changing from Blue) to Gray to Blue To Gray to Blue to Blood?   G > It is interesting because from my point of view, DEC was seen as less F > expensive as IBM, so my image in the mid 1980s was of a DEC that wasJ > more efficient than IBM while giving just as good quality. However, thisG > book does outline how its history lead a Digital to become relatively G > bloated when newcomers arrived on the scene with far more efficiency.   G This is true. However, Digital never had the cache IBM did. Digital was G like "It just's as good as a Ferrari but it costs 10% less" Yeh but for # just 10% more I can get a REAL one.   H > When it was decided to battle IBM, DEC hired 26,800 new employees in aG > short period of time. This didn't pan out, but those employees stayed I > on, thus greatly lowering the sales/employee numbers and making it even 2 > harder for DEC to compete. (this was mid 1980s).  E Yes, DEC took on a lot of dead wood. Rather than going for quality it  took on quantity.   F > Schein left when Palmer got in, so the book is very scant on details? > during the Palmer era.  But it does explain why Palmer had to E > fire/replace many top managers (those who even refused to listen to G > Olsen's attempts at changing management matrix), and why Palmer would J > have had to change many parts of the DEC culture.  Of course, Palmer mayJ > have known what had to be fixed, but he probably made things much worse,9 > whereas Gerstner succeeded at IBM in doing those tasks.   D Palmer was so incompetent that it would not have made an interestingE book. His reputation was that if he had been a surgeon, he would have C cut the arms and legs off of obese patients rather than giving them  liposuction.  G  > While the book is quite long for what it contains and short of juicy G > interesting details about DEC (more about generalities), it does make B > one wonder about how one can lose control over a large succesfulJ > corporation. And one has to wonder about companies like Yahoo and GoogleG > who are growing by leaps and bounds and going in every direction they  > can.  C The problem was that which made Digital a large company is not that ' which makes large companies successful.   ! So I've presented a grim picture.   D Digital could develop great software and Digital could develop great	 hardware.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:45:10 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> = Subject: RE: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC T Message-ID: <FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684019BCA93@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----7 > From: Doug Phillips [mailto:dphill46@netscape.net]=20 ! > Sent: September 1, 2006 1:51 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ? > Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC  >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote:  > > > -----Original Message-----8 > > > From: Doug Phillips [mailto:dphill46@netscape.net]# > > > Sent: August 31, 2006 8:22 PM  > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com C > > > Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC  > > >  > >  > > [snip ...] > > E > > > > > Being a loyal DEC-Compaq-HP customer from way-back, he went  > > > > > to HP's web @ > > > > > site and tried to option out a Win2k3 server. After=20 > an hour or so A > > > > > struggling (and calling me at least twice) and never=20 
 > getting the > > > > > > screens to process correctly, he went over to the=20 > Dell site and C > > > > > configured two servers in about 10 minutes. The site gave  > > > him a niceC > > > > > comparison and after talking to me for a few minutes (and  > > > sending meC > > > > > the links) he ordered one. It arrived within a week and I  > > > installed it> > > > > > the next. Other than a few issues getting it to play > > > nicely with his B > > > > > Alpha running OpenVMS Advanced Server, it came right up.	 > > > > > C > > > > > Been running fine, doing its job, and haven't rebooted it  > > > for months. 	 > > > > >  > > > >  > > > > < > > > > Having stated that, then this Cust has obviously not > > > installed many of A > > > > the 5-20 *security* patches that come out every month for  > > > Windows/Linux. > > > >  > > > 9 > > > You apparently haven't actually looked at the "5-20  > > > *security* patches" A > > > that come out every month for Windows. Most are for desktop @ > > > applications, and most of the ones that do apply to server > > > are specific+ > > > to certain applications or functions.  > > >  > >  > > Like IE? > > A > > Ever try removing IE from any Windows system - workstation=20  > or server? > > , > > It's a great exercise - try it sometime. > >  > > :-)  >=20B > Not much browsing done on the server. And, just because IE is=20 > installed " > doesn't mean you have to use it. >=20  : Most management utilities are all web based these days.=20  H Also, as others have stated, because it is so deeply embedded in the OS,C simply not using IE does not mean it can not be exploited remotely.    > > A > > > It is not advisable to use a server as a workstation and=20  > people who do * > > > so place themselves at greater risk. > > > B > > > A firewall/AV protected server that has stable usage will=20 > contiinue toG > > > be secure until that environment changes. There have been patches A > > > applied that did not require a reboot, and the  firewall=20  > and AV are > > > kept up-to-date. > > >  > > H > > Remember that 60% of most security issues are from internal sources. > >  >=20G > Maybe even more than 60%. That's a number that's hard to prove, but I G > suspect (without proof, gut feeling based on experience) that it'd be = > closer to 80%. Maybe higher if you consider an incorrect=20  > system setting; > that opens an external hole as having an internal source.  >=20C > > > I review the patches as they are released, and will apply the  > > > ones that @ > > > I feel might be worthwhile. If one requires a reboot, then > > > that will beB > > > scheduled. Server updates are different than desktop updates > > > and shouldB > > > not automatically cause a reboot like the desktops often do. > > > = > > > I also review the 5-20 OpenVMS patches that come out=20  > monthly and apply  > > > those as needed. > > >  > > B > > The 5-20 patches per month I am referring to are *security*=20 > patches, not > > bug fixes. > >  >=20A > Bugs are bugs. Some bite harder than others, but they're all=20  > bugs. SomeE > live only in certain environments, others are global. I don't worry C > about scorpions where I live, but ants can sure be a nuisanse. My C > Windows servers don't have problems with desktop software patches  > because they don't run any.  >=20  , Re: scorpions vs ants. Ok, let look at this.  D If I had 5-20 scorpions coming into my house every month, I would beE much more worried about that than 5-20 ants coming into my house. Now C add to this, the scorpions are coming in via different places every H month so you can not simply plug a known hole as they keep finding other ways to get in.   B > > Exponential difference in terms of whether one applies them=20
 > or not. Bug G > > patches can be put off. Most SysAdmins will not risk not applying a ? > > security patch as long as it even remotely seems like it=20  > might apply toF > > them.  And keep in mind that most companies today want standard OSD > > images, so that means even more testing is required as the App's( > > potentially impacted is even larger. > >  >=20E > I agree. Most "big" windows servers running "big" applications like C > database or transaction processing which aren't written in-house. D > They're purchased from "big" software companies whose job it is toC > understand how their application works with the operating system.  >=20A > > > I'd imagine my procedures are not too different from others  > > > who work in  > > > a similar environment. > > >  > > E > > It sounds like you have a small environment and you maintain your < > > systems as you feel it necessitates. That is fine and=20 > certainly nothing  > > wrong with that. > >  >=20A > The subject site is indeed a "small" environment. One Win2k3=20  > server and > one VMS server.  >=20< > > Question - Do you QA/test your important applications=20 > before releasingB > > patches into production or do you simply hope they will be ok? > >  >=20@ > No custom or in-house developed software runs on the Win2k3=20
 > server. All A > non-packaged applications run on the VMS server, and (with rare G > exception) VMS patches & new releases are not installed on production @ > systems until they have ripened, been tested and proven sound. >=20C > > > > That's certainly a big risk - perhaps the app or their data  > > > integrity or& > > > > privacy is not very important? > > > >  > > > ? > > > Or, maybe we understand our system better than you think.  > > >  > > A > > No, I don't think so. You seem to have a small environment=20 
 > which means F > > manually patching and testing patches with your applications has a3 > > minimal impact on you. Nothing wrong with that.  > >  >=20> > Yes, this is a small environment. The majority of Windows=20 > servers exist C > in small environments; whether it be small company, department or E > workgroup of a large to mid-sized company. The large Windows server A > installations --- where Windows is the only server, running all H > applications --- are (from what I see) a small percentage of the total > server population. >=20F > > However, with larger environments, operation costs associated withH > > testing security patches with applications are a huge cost at a timeB > > when BU's are screaming at IT to reduce their costs (or get=20 > outsourced > > is the implication). > >  >=20D > Most large Windows server environments are running special purposeC > applications, databases, etc. These are normally developed by and G > purchased, along with support, from vendors who spend a great deal of G > time certifying their stuff for various environments. Often, security A > patches come from those providers. Maybe your Windows server=20  > experience > has been different.  >=20? > VMS, more often than Windows, runs more in-house developed or C > customized packaged  applications as well as existing in back-end G > environments. That's one of the problems that VMS has faced for quite H > some time; end-user companies moving from developing in-house & custom > to buying packaged software. >=20H > > SysAdmin 101 - if you have an important application, then you do notA > > release any patches (security or bug) without testing that=20 
 > application ; > > with the new patches. With 5-20 *security* (not bug)=20  > patches per month H > > on Windows/Linux, the effort and costs are huge if you have numerousH > > applications and servers. And wrt to whether they are workstation orA > > server security issues, keep in mind that the most popular=20  > applicationsH > > being hacked (like IE) to get full priv's also exist on the servers. > >  >=20D > But, servers should not often use IE because servers should not beG > browsing the internet --- except for occasional maintenance purposes, < > and Firefox runs quite nicely on Windows. The fact that=20 > software exists D > on the server is not usually a problem; the problem comes when the > software is used.  >=20  H See comments above for web based mgmt agents and programs. Also the factF that your system can still be violated by IE holes even if you are not	 using.=20   > Also, see comments about Windows update only working with I.E.    G > I guess I've not encountered a Windows server environment such as you  > describe.  >=20 > > Something to consider: > > http://tinyurl.com/mhohrB > > "On August 8, 2006, Microsoft releases its monthly security=20
 > bulletins."  > >=20G > http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/update/bulletins/200608.mspx $ > > (Aug Windows Security bulletins) >=20G > You should dig deeper into those patches to see what they really are.  >=20 > > C > > Does anyone besides me not see an issue with "monthly" security  > > bulletins? > >  >=20H > The patches come out more often. Remember: Most of the Windows patchesE > are needed because of problems in the plethora of layered software. F > Many of the problems can be traced to the complexity of Windows GUI.) > Two problems that OpenVMS doesn't have.  >=20  @ Plus the fact that holes in the Windows/Linux Apps often lead to! elevated priv's on the system.=20   C > I can't fault anyone for defending VMS --- I've certainly done it G > myself --- but keeping things within the plane of reality rather that = > bobing things around always makes the better argument, IMO.  >=20  B I am stating reality for med to large businesses. You have a smallG environment, so the issues I raised about the huge efforts and costs to H apply monthly security patches do not apply to you. That's certainly ok.    G This is not the case for med-large companies. Let me try and put things F in perspective for you in terms of what Med-Large companies are facing today.  B Take this global company RFP extract as an example. This is from a; public server consolidation RFP about a year ago (with some H confidentiality chgs). I have seen bigger server numbers in other RFP's.% [Note how busy their servers are btw]   F "Company ABC has approximately 11,400 servers running various versionsF of Unix, Linux, and Windows operating systems. Together, these serversC are using approximately 10% of their combined capacity...The 11,460 @ server environment includes approximately 1,960 proprietary UnixC servers, xxx Linux servers, 9,020 Windows on Intel servers, and xxx  Novell file services servers."  = Now, consider the effort, time and $'s they need to spend in: H - keeping their Windows servers current with the 5-20 *security* patches released every month=20 + - maintain consistent OS image standards=20 H - test their important Apps with these patches before releasing to Prod.    H And people wonder why server and data center consolidation is such a hot item these days?=20   H How would you like to be in charge of keeping 9,000+ servers secure with= 5-20 security patches per month coming out for that platform?    :-)    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:36:13 -0400* From: "d b turner" <dbturner@islandco.com>7 Subject: Re: We're not dead yet, we're feeling better ! 8 Message-ID: <bR0Kg.17598$ry2.934@bignews3.bellsouth.net>   Hang on a moment> We still have 1 DS10 running our mercury.icusc.com mailserver.L We had to change from the DS10 because it only had one p/supply and I didn't& want to put all my eggs in one basket.J We were thinking of replacing the motherboard and that damned kzpac (whichH has turned out to be the culprit!) with a newer U160 raid controller andH running VMS but noone here could justify the expense for a small company6 like ours to use a commercially available application.  L We buy licenses for customers as we sell the systems, so we don't "stock" osL licenses. Our cost on the OpenVMS Base and EIP is over $1900 - that plus theK cost of applications such as a supported mailserver program is more than we L can afford in these trying times (we don't know what is going to happen next year any more than y'all)   G So the summarize - we do have 1 DS10 w t64 5.1b in house, still running J well, a proliant running red hat, a proliant running windows 2k and a dell file server running debian.    DT      3 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in message  N news:FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684019BC808@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... > -----Original Message-----: > From: Michael Kraemer [mailto:kraemer@biors6a.gsi.de] On > Behalf Of Michael Kraemer ! > Sent: September 1, 2006 8:33 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 9 > Subject: Re: We're not dead yet, we're feeling better !  > E > In article <1157078982.614029.133450@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>, ? > "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes:  > >  > > F > > Nothing ever has zero downtime without redundant parts.  A DS10 by; > > itself leaves many opportunities for downtime.  The key  > point was the : > > "almost 7 years with a few power-cycles for cleaning". > That's a pretty  > > good record. > >  >   > well, I'm less than impressed.- > Any half-decent gear, be it DEC or non-DEC, ' > manufactured in the "good old times", + > i.e. 10 or even 15 years ago will show up  > with similar numbers. - > The majority of boxes in my vicinity bought 3 > 8 years ago worked since then without any repair, ? > and power cycling only applied when being moved from one room  > to the other! > or for scheduled power-outages. ( > (I'm not talking PCs here, of course).@ > The funny thing with the OP is that a major web-based supplier1 > of alpha/VMS solutions is publicly stating that @ > a) they are incabable or unwilling to setup an alpha/VMS-based5 >    web-service with downtime less than about 3 days # > b) a Wintel box is better anyway.  >   G Sounds like local office of vendor has Windows techies on staff and are F simply expressing their OS religion without taking into account all ofE the monthly security patching (with associated app testing required), C stability, availability issues. Course, the vendor is typically not G involved in the Operations end, so they do not view that as a big deal.   : > I can hardly think of a more devastating "advertisement"/ > for this group's favorite platform than this. 4 > So what does that guy want to sell in the future ?! > Probably neither alpha nor VMS.  >   H Since it sounds like the local office has Windows techies on staff, theyH will likely not want to sell Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, NSK, z/OS or any other higher end platform either.    >    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.480 ************************