1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 05 Sep 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 487       Contents: Re: Authoring Tool for OpenVMS Re: Blue Ray Discs Re: Blue Ray DiscsB Re: Distributed Netbeans 5.0 field test? ANT doesn't work correct!' Re: Heads Up:  Intel to axe 20,000 jobs ' Re: Heads Up:  Intel to axe 20,000 jobs ' Re: Heads Up:  Intel to axe 20,000 jobs   Re: multinet / cluster questions Re: nagios nrpe for vms " Re: OpenVMS and Windows on Itanium" RE: OpenVMS and Windows on Itanium" Re: OpenVMS and Windows on Itanium" Re: OpenVMS and Windows on ItaniumD Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC isP RE: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is  dead, longP Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long P Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long ) Re: problem with file creation time stamp ; Re: Re[4]: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC 7 Re[6]: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC " RSH from Unix to VMS does not work& Re: RSH from Unix to VMS does not work Shutting down Multinet Re: Shutting down Multinet" Strange Connection Attempts - SMTP& Re: Strange Connection Attempts - SMTP& Re: Strange Connection Attempts - SMTP& Re: Strange Connection Attempts - SMTP& Re: Strange Connection Attempts - SMTP4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC. Re: We're not dead yet, we're feeling better !. Re: We're not dead yet, we're feeling better !. Re: We're not dead yet, we're feeling better !  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:49:40 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>' Subject: Re: Authoring Tool for OpenVMS , Message-ID: <44fd8070$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > VAXman- wrote:   >> DEC Document  > G > DEC Document is SDML, which isn't quite the same as SGML.  I take the N > section I quoted above to mean that they have moved off of DEC Document onto= > something new.  I want to know what this new thing is :^)     L    The tool running on another of the various HP platforms that the writing P group uses, and the tool the group is using is not (AFAIK) operating on OpenVMS.  N    As for SGML, few folks actually want to work with SGML, as it's rather too O gonzo for most mere mortals.  Most folks work with a subset of it (eg: XHTML),   or a variant (SDML).  T    I'd look at a docbook port or such, if you want a tool running native on OpenVMS.  Q    I don't know of anything other than Touch DOCUMENT and RUNOFF (DSR, DSR-Plus)  Q that include converters that can generate the OpenVMS-specific file formats, for  P those constructs like the help libraries.  (DSR-Plus was on a Freeware a distro @ or two back, IIRC, and RUNOFF (DSR) is still latent in OpenVMS.)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 07:03:43 -0400/ From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com>  Subject: Re: Blue Ray Discs I Message-ID: <8660a3a10609050403w4a4176cam146e6280eaa02414@mail.gmail.com>   ? On 9/5/06, Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.glendale.ca.us> wrote:  > Neil Rieck wrote: 9 > > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos-remove.com> wrote in message ' > > news:op.te5whbcgtte90l@hyrrokkin...  > > 6 > >>Are these going to be available for OpenVMS Alpha? > >>Tom  > >  > > O > > I hope not. One of my colleagues has done quite a bit of research on BluRay N > > vs. HD-DVD and BluRay might be a big mistake and a big waste of time (justO > > like BetaMax was). The biggest problem relates to data being written on the G > > external surface of the disk making it vulnerable to destruction by O > > scratching. (their solution to fixing this problem is the reintroduction of  > > the caddy. Yuk)  > > - > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc  > > ' > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD  > >  > > Neil Rieck! > > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  > > Ontario, Canada.% > > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/  > >  > >  > @ >   BetaMax wasn't a mistake - for people who appreciated better? > quality video and audio.  My decks are still running, they're > > from 1987. I've gotten more than my money's worth from them. >  > Vance  >    You are correct, sir.   7 All the equipment used by broadcast outlets is Betamax.    WWWebb --  G I'm no longer job-hunting, folks.  In fact, first day at work is today.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 07:37:26 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  Subject: Re: Blue Ray Discs < Message-ID: <44fd5ffc$0$24208$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>  A "Vance Haemmerle" <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US> wrote in message  6 news:nk7Lg.6413$yO7.2893@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com... > Neil Rieck wrote:  >  [...snip...] > ? >  BetaMax wasn't a mistake - for people who appreciated better ? > quality video and audio.  My decks are still running, they're > > from 1987. I've gotten more than my money's worth from them. >  > Vance   K You are 100% correct. BetaMax was technically superior to VHS; Later S-VHS  B closed that gap. The problem with BetaMax was that another greedy J manufacturer was planning to get 100% control of a market in order to get  rich.   I Way back when, Thomas Edison had a technically superior method of record  K audio on cylinders (it worked like a lathe: a metal screw moved the stylus  I across the media; all the tracks has the same audio characteristics) and  # also controlled 100% of the market.   M Gramophone (disk) media moved the stylus and, since the rotational speed was  I constant, didn't have the same audio capabilities near the center of the  K disk. The main reason the gramophone got popular was due to the much lower  J royalties after Edison lost an important patent dispute in Europe. A side K benefit was the fact that a given number of disks took up less volume than  " an equivalent number of cylinders.  J The same thing is happening today with companies like Microsoft trying to K convince manufacturers to use VC1 video compression technology rather than  
 MPEG4 etc.  I p.s. I heard a pod cast last month where Microsoft engineers stated that  ( they were supporting HD-DVD over BluRay.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada." http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 05:51:45 -0700 5 From: "Robert Zoebinger" <Robert.Zoebinger@knapp.com> K Subject: Re: Distributed Netbeans 5.0 field test? ANT doesn't work correct! C Message-ID: <1157460705.508214.320500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Hi!   A I am just testing "Distributed NetBeans Client" with Netbeans 5.5  Beta2!B When I compile a remote java source ("Remote Java Operations") the following error occurs:   Q >>Unable to locate tools.jar. Expected to find it in /ide$java_root/lib/tools.jar   5 When I do the same on OpenVMS I got the same message: # $ ant :== @ide$ant_home:ide_ant.com  $ ant "-version"Q >>Unable to locate tools.jar. Expected to find it in /ide$java_root/lib/tools.jar 3 >>Apache Ant version 1.6.5 compiled on July 14 2006   F The problem that ANT cannot find tools.jar is the "term" option in the logical IDE$JAVA_ROOT!  7 You can find this setting in IDE$COM:IDE$IDESTARTUP.COM   ' $ if f$trnlnm("IDE$JAVA_ROOT") .EQS. ""  $ then= $   jrehome = f$edit(f$trnlnm("JAVA$JRE_HOME_VMS"), "UPCASE")  $   lib = "''jrehome'" - "JRE]"  $   lib = "''lib'" + "]"@ $!   define/system/exec/trans=(term,conc) IDE$JAVA_ROOT "''lib'"$ $! I have changed the settings to...: $   define/system/exec/trans=(conc) IDE$JAVA_ROOT "''lib'" $ endif   * After restarting the IDE-Server ANT works!  
 Kind regards,    Robert   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 06:51:15 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> 0 Subject: Re: Heads Up:  Intel to axe 20,000 jobs< Message-ID: <44fd5528$0$24205$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:44FD0DD2.617FE1BA@teksavvy.com...E > BBC reports that Intel is to announce it is axing up to 20,000 jobs  > today. (20% of its workforce)  > F > One of the analysts interviewed by BBC mentioned that Itanium is one8 > reason Intel fell behind and lost market share to AMD. > G > Other analysts mention Intel's marketing flobs such as Viao and other  > unknown branding attempts. >  > H > While I doubt we would get the good news that IA64 is to be put out ofB > its misery right away, I think that Intel will focus on the 8086I > architecture and Ia64 isn't going to get an increase in human resources G > anytime soon , which means that chip will lag behind at a faster rate 0 > compared to the fast moving 8086 product line. > J > I think Hoff will only be able to say "there are no plans to port VMS toF > *****" for another few months, after that, he may need to change hisH > tune and perhaps add the word "announced" or "public" or "official" to > his statement. > M I saw a piece on the business news last week stating that AMD's market share  G had moved from 8% to 16% to 24% in three years. I don't think this was  K "caused" by IA64 but a triage management mentality could put the future of  J IA64 by diverting resources elsewhere. On a related note, the news item I M watched stated that only 10k jobs were on the line and the majority of these  L were in marketing and sales. I'm not sure if these employees were primarily M paid by salary or commission, but if market share is a problem then chopping  M here doesn't make much sense unless they want to cut total costs hoping that  L future chips can be sold at a lower price. (pulling in business rather than  pushing it)   K If Intel really was in deep trouble and wanted to kill off IA64, HP (along  I with other IA64 alliance partners) could step in buy the chip technology  L back from Intel which would make everyone wonder why so much time and money  was wasted killing off Alpha.   M p.s. I know you will respond to this by suggesting an OpenVMS port to "8086"  H so please use the more technologically accurate phrases "IA32e" or "x64"" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EM64T  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.9 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html     ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 10:53:04 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) 0 Subject: Re: Heads Up:  Intel to axe 20,000 jobsY Message-ID: <rdeininger-0509060653120001@dialup-4.233.173.2.dial1.manchester1.level3.net>   5 In article <44FD0DD2.617FE1BA@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei % <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:   D >BBC reports that Intel is to announce it is axing up to 20,000 jobs >today. (20% of its workforce) > E >One of the analysts interviewed by BBC mentioned that Itanium is one 7 >reason Intel fell behind and lost market share to AMD.  > F >Other analysts mention Intel's marketing flobs such as Viao and other >unknown branding attempts.  >  > G >While I doubt we would get the good news that IA64 is to be put out of A >its misery right away, I think that Intel will focus on the 8086 H >architecture and Ia64 isn't going to get an increase in human resourcesF >anytime soon , which means that chip will lag behind at a faster rate/ >compared to the fast moving 8086 product line.  > I >I think Hoff will only be able to say "there are no plans to port VMS to E >*****" for another few months, after that, he may need to change his G >tune and perhaps add the word "announced" or "public" or "official" to  >his statement.   I Please check your news posting tool.  It seems to have directed your post : to comp.os.vms instead of whatever newsgroup you intended.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:50:18 +0300; From: "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@bruden.com> 0 Subject: Re: Heads Up:  Intel to axe 20,000 jobs9 Message-ID: <44fd5766$0$19630$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:44FD0DD2.617FE1BA@teksavvy.com...E > BBC reports that Intel is to announce it is axing up to 20,000 jobs  > today. (20% of its workforce)  > F > One of the analysts interviewed by BBC mentioned that Itanium is one8 > reason Intel fell behind and lost market share to AMD. > G > Other analysts mention Intel's marketing flobs such as Viao and other  > unknown branding attempts. >  > H > While I doubt we would get the good news that IA64 is to be put out ofB > its misery right away, I think that Intel will focus on the 8086I > architecture and Ia64 isn't going to get an increase in human resources G > anytime soon , which means that chip will lag behind at a faster rate 0 > compared to the fast moving 8086 product line. > J > I think Hoff will only be able to say "there are no plans to port VMS toF > *****" for another few months, after that, he may need to change hisH > tune and perhaps add the word "announced" or "public" or "official" to > his statement.  7 My *own* and private opinion is that some time down the @ road Intel will merge it's IA64 line and Xeon line into one chip< which will be backport compatible to both chips. It makes no6 sense having two products competing against each other; in the same company. Right now you see a feature showing up G on IA64 being ported to Xeon and vice versa....I bet it's just a matter  of time....   ; Again based on my own private opinion not based on anything  I've heard.    Guy        --  = Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 18:16:04 +0200  From: rejoc <rejoc@FREEfree.fr> ) Subject: Re: multinet / cluster questions 4 Message-ID: <44fda2c6$0$21320$636a55ce@news.free.fr>   Rich Whalen a crit : F > On Mon, 04 Sep 2006 15:05:47 +0200, rejoc <rejoc@FREEfree.fr> wrote: >  >> Rich Whalen a crit :H >>> On Mon, 04 Sep 2006 10:51:08 +0200, rejoc <rejoc@FREEfree.fr> wrote: >>> ? >>>> Multinet 4.4 in a cluster where ip-cluster-aliases defined  >>>>F >>>> 2/ For one specific outgoing service and on the node holding the N >>>> cluster's address, I would like to have the cluster's IP address used as / >>>> the outgoing IP@ (and not the interface @)  >>>> >>> Can't be done.' >> Is a newer version able to do that ?  >>K >> Is it the same if I define a pseudo interface (pd0) and want to use its  2 >> address as the outgoing address for a service ? > C > I thought about this a bit more, and there may be a way to do it. ) > Your program needs to do the following: 
 > socket()( > bind(socket, desired outgoing address)& > connect(socket, destination address) > exchange packets > close(socket)  > # > Note that I have not tested this. G Thanks Rich, but in my case I have no access to the source code of the   application :-(  >>>> TiA   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 10:00:14 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>  Subject: Re: nagios nrpe for vms* Message-ID: <44fd82e1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   Zakaria wrote:7 > nrpevms last build at http://nrpevms.dbaalacarte.com/   Q    Just what "nagios nrpe" might be obvious to some, but an introduction -- what  > is it, what can you do with it, etc -- might well be in order.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 08:06:01 -0400 2 From: Bob Willard <BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net>+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS and Windows on Itanium : Message-ID: <OZmdne03ut4X-mDZnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@comcast.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:   D > My feeling is that running an OS on an emulator is like sex with aG > blow-up doll.  (Since I have no experience with either, I can make a  C > fair comparison.)  Even if the emulation were very good, I still   > wouldn't like the concept. >   E Running an OS on an emulator is useful when (and maybe only when) you 0 have an unportable app (e.g., lost source code).  E I remember running an IBM 650 app under the 650 emulator that was run F under the 709x emulator on a 360/50.  I suppose you'd call that having0 sex with a grainy photo of an ugly blow-up doll. --   Cheers, Bob    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:22:36 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> + Subject: RE: OpenVMS and Windows on Itanium T Message-ID: <FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684019BCC3F@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----F > From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel [mailto:heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com]=20" > Sent: September 4, 2006 11:06 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com - > Subject: Re: OpenVMS and Windows on Itanium  >=20 >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > > Don't forget to:B > > - add 30 x2 =3D 60 FC adapters to the cost to connect these=20 > servers to the SAN.  >=20? > Ayup, it is pretty neat how the host OS can present seemingly H > individual storage connections, witht he same device name if you like,G > using a single interface to all guest OS instances. The HPUX host can C > figure out the alternate paths and keep it simple for the guests.  >=20E > Ditto in the network space. The host can allow the guest to share a E > single nic, or use the hpux lan aggregation to spread the load over  > multiple available nic's. E > Meanwhile all guests can talk to each other over a 'virtual' hub at  > memory speed.  >=20G > > As long as you remember that you have to apply the monthly security D > > patches to 30 servers, monitor 30 security log files, monitor 30) > > separate local disk environments etc.  >=20; > Hmm... don't think that will be different for hosts OS's. # > They are not aware of each other. E > They each their own things, have their own securiy files and so on. # > VMS clusters on teh other hand...  >=20	 > Cheers,  > Hein van den Heuvel  > HvdH Performance Consulting  >=20  > Yeah, which is why my preference is App stacking with workloadD management like class schedulers (if needed) - assuming there are no political issues.   F App stacking not only reduces HW, but also OS instances. And one needsE to keep in mind that it is OS instances that typically determines the F number of FTE counts that an IT dept has. And FTE costs is the biggest< slice of the IT budget pie that most Exec's wants to reduce.   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:58:02 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS and Windows on Itanium * Message-ID: <44fd825e@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   Bart wrote:   A >   I'm an OpenVMS/Itanium newbie and trying to understand the HP  > virtualization solutions.  > G >   Is it correct that only the future version of "HP Integrity Virtual F > Machines" will allow to run OpenVMS and Windows simultaneously on an  > Itanium (HP Integrity server)? > H >   Is it correct that there does not exist a virtual machine which runs> > on OpenVMS and supports Windows as a guest operating system?  D    You will see multiple operating systems running in parallel, yes.  O    There are two sorts of VMs, one based on a full operating system (eg: HPVM,  P based on HP-UX), and one that is a dedicated run-time environment that is itselfF a standalone operating system (eg: IBM VM, XenSource Xen, and VMware).  C    A "guest" is an operating system running as a client of another.   O    OpenVMS does not have a VM in the immediate future, so you won't see guests   running on OpenVMS.   O    For a future release, OpenVMS is being configured to be a more polite guest  M -- as folks that work with emulators and with VMs will tell you, running the  O idle loop is a waste of resources for the VM, and there are simple tweaks that  H can be made to make the guest and the VM more efficient -- and other HP Q operating systems either are or will be available as guests.  HPVM cannot itself   be a guest.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:02:40 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> + Subject: Re: OpenVMS and Windows on Itanium , Message-ID: <44FDADAE.C76386D8@teksavvy.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote: P >    OpenVMS does not have a VM in the immediate future, so you won't see guests > running on OpenVMS.      DEC HAD IT NOW.   E It was called SOFTPC from insignia solutions. Had they continued with D it, it would have been able to run modern windows. Alas, development> stopped early at DOS (and it only emulates a 286 as I recall).   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 08:20:54 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) M Subject: Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is 3 Message-ID: <AMngx6BAasGD@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <44F8910E.EF16493F@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > "Main, Kerry" wrote:G >> You are talking about ways to "hide" I.E. Actually removing from the ? >> system is akin to a brain transplant in terms of complexity.  > G > What about DELETE EXPLORER.EXE or whatever executable is invoked when 1 > you start that Microsoft thing that does HTTP ?   I    Basically:  EXPLORER.EXE is Windows Explorer, which you probably want. H    Try IEXPLORER.EXE for Inernet Explorer.  Or see the previoulst posted&    web site for the non-basic details.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 12:57:54 GMT F From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman)Y Subject: RE: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is  dead, long - Message-ID: <mveLg.36$5d1.17@news.oracle.com>   ~ In article <FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684019BCAC9@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes: >>H >> What about DELETE EXPLORER.EXE or whatever executable is invoked when2 >> you start that Microsoft thing that does HTTP ? >> > 4 >Try it and see what happens on your Windows system. >   : If some recent news reports are true, this may be possible: in Korea, and some other countries now or soon.  To settle< government legal actions, Microsoft is apparently unbundling the browser from the OS.  < Please notice I started this message off with the word "IF".   Bart.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 08:21:51 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Y Subject: Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long  3 Message-ID: <hMRhXbeonaNj@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <44F8AEC5.4090206@comcast.net>, bradhamilton <bradhamilton@comcast.net> writes: > K > The last time I checked, it's not possible to run WU without IE.  That's  K > the only reason to keep IE on a Windows box (not to mention enjoying the  I > delicious irony of *needing* to run a potentially insecure application  B > in order to keep the underlying "O/S" (GUI add-on?) secure).	:-)  >    The last time I checked this was one of the claims that the)    previously mentioned web site debunks.         ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 08:19:01 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Y Subject: Re: OT - running IE in Windows (was:Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long  3 Message-ID: <KBqQq0IFrHHz@eisner.encompasserve.org>   { In article <8660a3a10609011238n6dad4fa3xd9508ba7828788f3@mail.gmail.com>, "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> writes:  > F > For those who are interested in IE-free Windows, there's a guy namedF > Fred Vorck who devotes a website to how to do so, plus slipstreaming5 > service packs and hotfixes into an installation CD.  >  > http://www.vorck.com  E    Nice website, esp. the no-IE and FireFox eats-IE-graphics.  Bit he C    seems to limit himself to W2K, and his link to a fellow who does     XP doens't work.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 08:24:41 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 2 Subject: Re: problem with file creation time stamp3 Message-ID: <5zkiidI8g5sF@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <1157118248.603656.257250@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "alok" <alok.net@gmail.com> writes:  > Hi > E > is it possible in VAX VMS that only the file creation time stamp is  > changed but not the  > content of file.  E    There are a variety of things which will change the creation date, 9    including creating a new version, or copying the file.   H    There are also tools that specifically override the default behaviour    of VMS to do this.   E    But make sure you're looking at the create date and not the modify     date.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 08:40:20 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) D Subject: Re: Re[4]: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC3 Message-ID: <HV53IbDOp8Pz@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <4m2v84F49srrU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  H > I can't imagine why Russia would have bothered trying to clone the VAXL > as even with the technology sanctions in place they had no problem gettingN > the real thing.  I even remember a company that posted a long explanation ofM > how they got around the sanctions by having their Swiss branch buy the VAX, M > making an intra-company transfer to India (who had not signed the agreement K > sanctioning high-tech products headed for the USSR) and then selling them I > as used computer gear to the Russians,  They were rather proud of their  > closed market.  H    They bothered to clone the VAX because they did have problems gettingH    the real thing.  Working around US export controls could be more of aA    problem than cloning.  The Russians did both, and I'm not sure B    they'll ever bother to figure out which worked better for them.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:03:42 +05004 From: Valentin Likoum <valentin.likoum@ncc.volga.ru>@ Subject: Re[6]: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC3 Message-ID: <564313205.20060905110342@ncc.volga.ru>   5 On 04/09/06 Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:   5 > In article <911352736.20060904113628@ncc.volga.ru>, @ >         Valentin Likoum <valentin.likoum@ncc.volga.ru> writes:7 >> On 03/09/06 Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote:  >>  P >>> As for cloning VAXs, people at DEC should consider this the greatest form of
 >>> flattery.  >>  H >>   OS/360 and IBM hardware was cloned before, IIRC. So DEC was not the	 >> first.   H > I can't imagine why Russia would have bothered trying to clone the VAXL > as even with the technology sanctions in place they had no problem gettingN > the real thing.  I even remember a company that posted a long explanation ofM > how they got around the sanctions by having their Swiss branch buy the VAX, M > making an intra-company transfer to India (who had not signed the agreement K > sanctioning high-tech products headed for the USSR) and then selling them I > as used computer gear to the Russians,  They were rather proud of their  > closed market.  G   It's not a surprise at all. Yes, there were different ways around the ? export constraints (I heard about some equipment supposed to be B delivered somethere in the Europe but reloaded from the commercialH ship to the Soviet naval cruiser in the middle of Atlantic), but none of? them were fast/easy. And every computer delivered such way into ? [sub]military organizations had to be checked against artifical 0 "add-ons". Not a fast and easy procedure either.F   So IMHO, desision to have in-house production (work horses at least)2 made sense. Usual "To give fish" vs. "To give net">   BTW, VAX hardware was produced not only in the Soviet Union.1 I worked on the BIG VAX made in the East Germany.    --  
 Best regards, #  Valentin                           (  valentin.likoum at ncc dot volga dot ru   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 07:43:18 -0700 ) From: "Jan van Beers" <LCMGjan@gmail.com> + Subject: RSH from Unix to VMS does not work A Message-ID: <1157467397.918098.39720@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>    Hi,   F We have problems using RSH from a Unix box to an OpenVMS system.behind a firewall. 4 When we did telnet this was the results of the test:&   bash-2.03$ telnet 217.214.250.97 514   Trying 217.214.250.97...   Connected to 217.214.250.97.   Escape character is '^]'. 3   INTERnet ACP Error Status = %SYSTEM-F-TOOMUCHDATA $   Connection closed by foreign host.  1 When we did rsh this was the results of the test:   * root@hone# rsh -l eircc 217.214.250.97 dir, root@hone# snoop -d hme0 host 217.214.250.975 hone.lul.telia.se -> 217.214.250.97 RSHELL C port=981 5 217.214.250.97 -> hone.lul.telia.se RSHELL R port=981 5 hone.lul.telia.se -> 217.214.250.97 RSHELL C port=981 ; hone.lul.telia.se -> 217.214.250.97 RSHELL C port=981 980\0 5 217.214.250.97 -> hone.lul.telia.se RSHELL R port=981 D 217.214.250.97 -> hone.lul.telia.se RSHELL R port=981 \1INTERnet ACP Error 5 217.214.250.97 -> hone.lul.telia.se RSHELL R port=981 5 hone.lul.telia.se -> 217.214.250.97 RSHELL C port=981 5 hone.lul.telia.se -> 217.214.250.97 RSHELL C port=981 5 hone.lul.telia.se -> 217.214.250.97 RSHELL C port=981   F The same thing here: we can connect and receive a response back on the request 3 To me these logs shows that the connectivity is OK.     2 The configuration on the VMS system is as follows: TE71:EIR> ucx sh prox/comm  ; VMS User_name     Type   Remote User_name         Host_name   3 EIRCC             CD     EIRCC                    * @ EIRCC             CD     eircc                    131.115.61.109    + Where should we look to solve this problem?    regards,
 Jan van Beers    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 08:15:22 -0700 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> / Subject: Re: RSH from Unix to VMS does not work + Message-ID: <edk4aa$p5m$1@naig.caltech.edu>    Jan van Beers wrote:  H > We have problems using RSH from a Unix box to an OpenVMS system.behind
 > a firewall.   ? rsh is a bit of a pain to get through firewalls because it uses B two ports (if memory serves, one for stdout, one for stderr).  TryF ssh instead - everything goes through one port and it's more secure in	 any case.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 11:10:59 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Shutting down Multinet 3 Message-ID: <o9ALtH$4w9gh@eisner.encompasserve.org>   > I have a machine running Multinet V4.0 Rev A and the processes= associated with Multinet are taking up memory I would like to  use elsewhere.  ? How do I shut down Multinet (aside from rebooting and declining  to start it) ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 19:30:09 +0200 $ From: Bill Bennett <no.spam@plea.se># Subject: Re: Shutting down Multinet / Message-ID: <edkc72$oe2$03$1@news.t-online.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:@ > I have a machine running Multinet V4.0 Rev A and the processes? > associated with Multinet are taking up memory I would like to  > use elsewhere. > A > How do I shut down Multinet (aside from rebooting and declining  > to start it) ?  A Here is a procedure that Aaron Leonard posted to Info-Multinet in : February of 1997, which is about when 4.0A would have been current :-o      ----  B # Additionally, is there a graceful way to shut Multinet down, andB # disconnect all attached users,  without shuting the system down.   I would do this as follows:   ; 1. Stop all MultiNet processes other than the master server  2. Stop the master server 2 3. Disconnect MultiNet from the VMS network device  ? For example, let's say that you're using MultiNet interface se0 / attached to VMS device EZA0.  Then I'd do this:    $! if using NFS_SERVER" $ MULTINET NETCONTROL NFS SHUTDOWN $! if using NFS client $ MULTINET NFSDISMOUNT/ALL $! if using XDM " $ MULTINET NETCONTROL XDM SHUTDOWN $! stop the master server ! $ @MULTINET:START_SERVER SHUTDOWN 9 $! disconnect MultiNet interface se0 from VMS device EZA0 ? $ MULTINET SET/INTERFACE/DOWN/LINK=ETHERNET/VMS_DEVICE=EZA0 SE0    ----   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 07:32:34 -0700  From: Kenneth.H.White@gmail.com + Subject: Strange Connection Attempts - SMTP B Message-ID: <1157466754.563210.299580@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>  C We currently have an OpenVMS server that is attempting to make SMTP F connections to an IP address of 169.254.5.28.  The attempts are comingF at approximately 1 minute intervals.  I do not know much about OpenVMSC and was wondering if anyone could help me determine what is causing < these connection attempts.  Thanks in advance for your help!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 12:58:33 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: Strange Connection Attempts - SMTP , Message-ID: <44FDACB8.34D6F16C@teksavvy.com>    Kenneth.H.White@gmail.com wrote: > E > We currently have an OpenVMS server that is attempting to make SMTP H > connections to an IP address of 169.254.5.28.  The attempts are coming' > at approximately 1 minute intervals.    @ $SHOW QUEUE TCPIP$SMTP*/ALL  should give you an idea of how manyH messages are waiting to be processed, and which usernames have submittedE those messages. (If it is TCPIP$SMTP, then the messages were received > from another host by the TCPIP software and are being relayed.  E $TYPE/TAIL TCPIP$SMTP_COMMON:*LOGFILE.LOG  should give you an idea of 8 messages recently processed (depending on logging level)    G Note that 169.254.5.28 not only has no reverse translation, but also no E whois info from ARIN. It appears to be in the mdidle east (last known = route appears to be in saudi arabia before traceroutes hang).    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 18:19:50 +0100* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>/ Subject: Re: Strange Connection Attempts - SMTP , Message-ID: <edkbjn$gf0$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>  D "Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER" <peter@langstoeger.at> wrote in message & news:44fdcbd9$1@news.langstoeger.at...  > > Nope. WHOIS states that 169.254.0.0/16 is IANA (Special Use)  D It's an Automatic Private IP Address; devices usually pick them whenG they aren't getting a reply to DHCP. Often used for ad hoc networking.     ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 19:11:21 -0200 6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)/ Subject: Re: Strange Connection Attempts - SMTP , Message-ID: <44fdcbd9$1@news.langstoeger.at>  \ In article <44FDACB8.34D6F16C@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:H >Note that 169.254.5.28 not only has no reverse translation, but also no >whois info from ARIN.  < Nope. WHOIS states that 169.254.0.0/16 is IANA (Special Use)  0 >It appears to be in the mdidle east (last known> >route appears to be in saudi arabia before traceroutes hang).  L For me TRACEROUTE hangs much earlier, so I think, this is a nonrouted net...   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 12:17:01 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: Strange Connection Attempts - SMTP 3 Message-ID: <Vfn3QR8A60ld@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <1157466754.563210.299580@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>, Kenneth.H.White@gmail.com writes:E > We currently have an OpenVMS server that is attempting to make SMTP H > connections to an IP address of 169.254.5.28.  The attempts are comingH > at approximately 1 minute intervals.  I do not know much about OpenVMSE > and was wondering if anyone could help me determine what is causing > > these connection attempts.  Thanks in advance for your help! >   D    Since you've figured out it's SMTP I'd think that the mail system,    is trying to send email to that computer.  H    How to track down more information is going to depend on which TCP/IPH    stack you're using.  The FAQ (http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq/) will    help you figure that out.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 10:34:50 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) = Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC Y Message-ID: <rdeininger-0509060634560001@dialup-4.233.173.2.dial1.manchester1.level3.net>   ? In article <edgobc$d78$02$1@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer  <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote:    >Bill Gunshannon schrieb:  >  >> Tell me again why PAKs are  >> a bad idea?  :-)  >>   > 3 >The mechanism itself isn't necessarily a bad idea. 5 >The fact that DEC used it for every little component : >of the OS is. In particular for hobbyists it doesn't make >sense at all.  C LMF wasn't designed for the hobbyist program.  The hobbyist program H started WAY later than LMF, and it was implemented largely by volunteersF at as close to zero cost as could be managed.  That means the hobbyistJ program had no budget to implement changes, either in LMF itself or in the tools used to generate PAKs.  I The program uses a tool that already existed to generate PAKs.  The input D is a list of products, the output is a DCL file containing the PAKs.  D The hobbyist needs to fill out TWO web forms and execute TWO commandH files, approximately once/year.  You're the only person I've noticed whoG finds this onerous. I've never understood your hysterical hatred of the  hobbyist PAKs.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 07:07:13 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> = Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC < Message-ID: <44fd58e6$0$24169$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>  C "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspringdot.com> wrote in message  S news:rdeininger-0509060634560001@dialup-4.233.173.2.dial1.manchester1.level3.net... A > In article <edgobc$d78$02$1@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer  > <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote:  >  [...snip...] > E > LMF wasn't designed for the hobbyist program.  The hobbyist program J > started WAY later than LMF, and it was implemented largely by volunteersH > at as close to zero cost as could be managed.  That means the hobbyistL > program had no budget to implement changes, either in LMF itself or in the > tools used to generate PAKs. > K > The program uses a tool that already existed to generate PAKs.  The input F > is a list of products, the output is a DCL file containing the PAKs. > F > The hobbyist needs to fill out TWO web forms and execute TWO command! > files, approximately once/year.  > L I agree. It wouldn't make sense to go back and produce hobbyist versions of I each product which wouldn't require a PAK. On top of that, you just know  J that some of these pak-free images would eventually make it into the main L stream. Software is easily copied intellectual property and they have to do  something to slow the theft.  M I've been told by a colleague that Microsoft has special 64-CPU SMP versions  H of Windows 2003 Server which they guard like the crown jewels. Makes me B wonder when Microsoft will come out with a system similar to PAKs.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html      ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 12:08:56 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)= Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC + Message-ID: <4m57moF4jno2U1@individual.net>   / In article <edj59d$o2e$02$2@news.t-online.com>, + 	Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon schrieb: >>  I >> I can't imagine why Russia would have bothered trying to clone the VAX M >> as even with the technology sanctions in place they had no problem getting O >> the real thing.  I even remember a company that posted a long explanation of N >> how they got around the sanctions by having their Swiss branch buy the VAX,N >> making an intra-company transfer to India (who had not signed the agreementL >> sanctioning high-tech products headed for the USSR) and then selling themJ >> as used computer gear to the Russians,  They were rather proud of their >> closed market.  >>  L >> And, with Unix making the trip in diplomatic pouches (I always thought itK >> rather humorous that our allies could  not have the version of Unix with J >> DES but after the fall of the Iron Curtain we learned that the Russians1 >> had it for years.) I would imagine so did VMS.  >>   > 4 > Kind of funny how restrictions invented to protect4 > capitalistic ideology are circumvented by the very > same ideology itself.   B I guess I don't understand that.  It wasn't the ideology they were? protecting but rather the continued existence and safety of the B citizens of the United States from someone who publicly stated "We@ will bury you!"  During their more beligerant times the USSR wasD every bit as vocal about us as the Arab world is about Israel today.  F It is rather ironic that it is this very technology that is frequentlyA creditied with contributing greatly to the demise of the USSR and / shortly thereafter the rest of the Warsaw Pact.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 08:37:37 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) = Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC 3 Message-ID: <fqP6fUjSMhZb@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <4m12l9F41skiU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > M > And then you have the alternative.  :-)  We currently have someone who used K > to use IRIX and now uses Linux.  They have two packages that require that L > you run their license manager daemon in order to use their programs.  BothL > companies used the same name (LMF) for their license managment daemons andM > both programs are incompatable with each other.  Tell me again why PAKs are  > a bad idea?  :-)  C    Or you could use products that require FlexLM.  I wonder if they 7    ever fixed all the security holes FlexLM introduced?    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Sep 2006 08:42:13 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) = Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC 3 Message-ID: <V1AjiVQ$$Nkn@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <edgobc$d78$02$1@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes: > Bill Gunshannon schrieb: >  >> Tell me again why PAKs are  >> a bad idea?  :-)  >>   > 4 > The mechanism itself isn't necessarily a bad idea.6 > The fact that DEC used it for every little component; > of the OS is. In particular for hobbyists it doesn't make  > sense at all.   D    I think our definition of OS is much more restrictive than yours.  E    I like the ability to only pay for the layered products I actually     need.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 12:46:23 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC , Message-ID: <44FDA9DE.E05B3DA3@teksavvy.com>   Neil Rieck wrote: M > I agree. It wouldn't make sense to go back and produce hobbyist versions of , > each product which wouldn't require a PAK.    F I think the issue here is that DEC never streamlined LMF to the extentG it could have been streamlined. For instance one still requires to load @ some strange "UCX" licence on VMS in order for something that isG expected to be standard on any OS to work (TCPIP).  Only those who have ? been with VMS long enough would know what that "UCX" thing was.   G At the time DEC changed the name to TCPIP Services, it should have just G made it run with any VMS licence and not require its own.  And the fact I that there are "full" and "client only" licences only makes things worse.   F In this day and age, producing crippled versions of a product in orderH to justify a lower price is not acceptable when your competitors provideE the full version at a lower price.  Its the price of the full product  that needs to be lowered.   D I can see clustering and volume shadowing as needing extra licences.& (but for clustering, it is debatable).  2 DECNET should never have had a need for a licence.   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:33:07 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)= Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC $ Message-ID: <edkccj$elq$2@online.de>  B In article <4m57moF4jno2U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:   D > I guess I don't understand that.  It wasn't the ideology they wereA > protecting but rather the continued existence and safety of the D > citizens of the United States from someone who publicly stated "WeB > will bury you!"  During their more beligerant times the USSR wasF > every bit as vocal about us as the Arab world is about Israel today.  H Not being a fan of either side, I am neutral here, but I do believe thatG this famous remark, while correctly quoted, is often misunderstood.  It F is usually quoted as "We will BURY you" but was meant as "WE will buryE YOU".  In other words, it wasn't a threat (like "we will kill you" or E "we will nuke you" or "we will destroy you") but rather a prediction, F i.e. that the USSR would outlive the US and hence bury the dead in theF latter.  (Of course, the prediction turned out to be wrong, but that'sH beside the point.  Incidentally, Marx predicted that the UK would be oneH of the first countries to turn to communism, and Russia one of the last,A because the former was, in his time, more industrialised than the I latter.  I don't know if he missed the mark because, as a former teacher  G of mine claimed, he didn't take the electric motor into account.  (The  C idea was that the electric motor made small-scale industrial firms  G possible, rather than having only large factories which were tied to a  I large power source such as a river turning a water wheel, a steam engine   etc.))   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:39:43 -0700 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> 7 Subject: Re: We're not dead yet, we're feeling better ! + Message-ID: <edk98f$r81$1@naig.caltech.edu>    Dan Foster wrote: V > In article <edcrqo$6i0$1@naig.caltech.edu>, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote:E >> So RAID5 if you must, but a fast tape drive and recent backup tape ? >> will still be required to save your bacon in some instances.  > G > Funny thing is, latest tape drive technology can be actually somewhat ? > faster than hard drives (for sequential I/O only, obviously).   @ At raw speeds?  The spec sheet says the DLT-S4, which is as fastF as it gets for DLT machines at the moment, can sustain 60 Mb/sec (216 : Gb/hour). If compression can be used to good effect (which= in my experience is rarely the case - either the data doesn't = compress well or the CPU overhead slows things down too much) F that becomes 432 Gb/hour at 2:1 compression.  Even without compression@ it's very fast from a historical tape perspective.  However with; RAID arrays often measured in terabytes it can still easily 8 translate into a full backup time of more than 10 hours.  B Quantum finally moved the SCSI interface up to Ultra320 so at best; one could hang 5 of these drives on one U320 controller and ? pump 300Mb/sec out to the set.  (Probably this doesn't actually < work due to bus contention and timing issues.)  This assumes: the RAID array can feed the data at that rate and that the8 backup software has some reasonable way of spreading the= data across the drives, with the restore software knowing how  to put it all together again.   $ Can current BACKUP versions do this?  B I have a vision of disk drives getting so far out in front of tapeC capacity and network bandwidth that the only way to do an effective @ off site full backup will be to to drive a trailer full of disksD to the site, load them there (mirror the disk array), and then driveF the trailer far away to some "safe" parking place.  Alternatively keepG the mirror on site, periodically break the mirror and do a full backup  D for a long time (days?) and then move the tapes away while reforming0 the mirror.  Either way it's slow and expensive.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:51:07 -0700 * From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos-remove.com>7 Subject: Re: We're not dead yet, we're feeling better ! ) Message-ID: <op.tfezrhmvtte90l@hyrrokkin>   G On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:39:43 -0700, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>    wrote:   > Dan Foster wrote: = >> In article <edcrqo$6i0$1@naig.caltech.edu>, David Mathog    >> <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote:F >>> So RAID5 if you must, but a fast tape drive and recent backup tape@ >>> will still be required to save your bacon in some instances.I >>  Funny thing is, latest tape drive technology can be actually somewhat @ >> faster than hard drives (for sequential I/O only, obviously). > B > At raw speeds?  The spec sheet says the DLT-S4, which is as fastI > as it gets for DLT machines at the moment, can sustain 60 Mb/sec (216   < > Gb/hour). If compression can be used to good effect (which? > in my experience is rarely the case - either the data doesn't ? > compress well or the CPU overhead slows things down too much) H > that becomes 432 Gb/hour at 2:1 compression.  Even without compressionB > it's very fast from a historical tape perspective.  However with= > RAID arrays often measured in terabytes it can still easily : > translate into a full backup time of more than 10 hours. > D > Quantum finally moved the SCSI interface up to Ultra320 so at best= > one could hang 5 of these drives on one U320 controller and A > pump 300Mb/sec out to the set.  (Probably this doesn't actually > > work due to bus contention and timing issues.)  This assumes< > the RAID array can feed the data at that rate and that the: > backup software has some reasonable way of spreading the? > data across the drives, with the restore software knowing how  > to put it all together again.  > & > Can current BACKUP versions do this? > D > I have a vision of disk drives getting so far out in front of tapeE > capacity and network bandwidth that the only way to do an effective B > off site full backup will be to to drive a trailer full of disksF > to the site, load them there (mirror the disk array), and then driveH > the trailer far away to some "safe" parking place.  Alternatively keepJ > the mirror on site, periodically break the mirror and do a full backup  F > for a long time (days?) and then move the tapes away while reforming2 > the mirror.  Either way it's slow and expensive. >  And on a private highway:-) 
 > Regards, >  > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu       --  E Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:22:12 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 7 Subject: Re: We're not dead yet, we're feeling better ! , Message-ID: <44FDB23F.E359EF0E@teksavvy.com>   David Mathog wrote: D > I have a vision of disk drives getting so far out in front of tapeE > capacity and network bandwidth that the only way to do an effective B > off site full backup will be to to drive a trailer full of disksF > to the site, load them there (mirror the disk array), and then drive5 > the trailer far away to some "safe" parking place.      G When you look at those places that really do have terabytes of storage, D how dynamic is this data ? If you have a database fo X-ray pictures,C this database grows and you rarely edit/delete old pictures. So the F backup can be "incremental" in nature where you transport only updatesF to a backup site where you apply those updates to the backup database.  E When you look ta Google, losing parts of its database is probably not H even noticed by many and it eventually gets recreated by the robots that  go through the net all the time.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.487 ************************