1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 11 Sep 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 499       Contents: Accounting Questions Re: Accounting Questions Re: Accounting Questions Re: Accounting Questions# Re: All is not well at the HP board # Re: All is not well at the HP board # Re: All is not well at the HP board  Auto reboot fails on DS10  Re: Auto reboot fails on DS10  Re: Auto reboot fails on DS10  Re: Auto reboot fails on DS10 	 CETS 2001 % Re: Disk Storage for AlphaServer DS20 < Re: DISMOUNT foreign tape crashes with VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100< Re: DISMOUNT foreign tape crashes with VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100< Re: DISMOUNT foreign tape crashes with VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100' Re: Encrypted backup questions/concepts & Re: HP announces new Integrity servers& Re: Locating early versions of VAX/VMS- Per Core Licensing Support for OpenVMS V8.2-1 	 Re: phone  Problem with V8.3 Addendum Kits 	 Re: psftp   SYS$CRELNM Access Mode / FORTRAN$ Re: SYS$CRELNM Access Mode / FORTRAN4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:27:15 +0200 , From: "Ferry Bolhar" <bol@adv.magwien.gv.at> Subject: Accounting Questions 5 Message-ID: <1157974038.857465@proxy.dienste.wien.at>   L While playing a little bit with accounting, I encountered that from the timeL where a print or batch terminates until its record appears in the accounting; file, there is a delay of several seconds up to one minute.   G Where this delay comes from? Is there a system parameter affecting this G interval? What exactly happens when an accounting record is written out   (e.g, with the $SNDJBC service)?  K In addition, while looking at the $ACRDEF macro (in STARLET), I encountered ( the following unknown accounting events:  $ ACR$K_PRCPUR           Process purge" ACR$K_IMGPUR           Image purge1 ACR$K_ALTACM          Declare alternate acc mang.   = Does someone the purpose of these events? When are they used?    Greetings, Ferry   --   Ing Ferry Bolhar  Magistrat der Stadt Wien - MA 14 A-1010 Wien  E-Mail: bol@adv.magwien.gv.at    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2006 09:28:12 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ! Subject: Re: Accounting Questions 3 Message-ID: <dcCJSm5cMBsY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <1157974038.857465@proxy.dienste.wien.at>, "Ferry Bolhar" <bol@adv.magwien.gv.at> writes:  M > In addition, while looking at the $ACRDEF macro (in STARLET), I encountered * > the following unknown accounting events: > & > ACR$K_PRCPUR           Process purge$ > ACR$K_IMGPUR           Image purge3 > ACR$K_ALTACM          Declare alternate acc mang.  > ? > Does someone the purpose of these events? When are they used?   F A lot of codes in STARLET are _not_ used.  Many people will not botherD trying to figure out their purpose until you can prove that they are ever found in nature :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2006 09:39:51 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com ! Subject: Re: Accounting Questions A Message-ID: <1157992791.708413.54590@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:f > In article <1157974038.857465@proxy.dienste.wien.at>, "Ferry Bolhar" <bol@adv.magwien.gv.at> writes: > O > > In addition, while looking at the $ACRDEF macro (in STARLET), I encountered , > > the following unknown accounting events: > > ( > > ACR$K_PRCPUR           Process purge& > > ACR$K_IMGPUR           Image purge5 > > ACR$K_ALTACM          Declare alternate acc mang.  > > A > > Does someone the purpose of these events? When are they used?  > H > A lot of codes in STARLET are _not_ used.  Many people will not botherF > trying to figure out their purpose until you can prove that they are > ever found in nature :-)  A I've seen third-party resource accounting tools make use of these G items.  What you do it tell the job controller to write a process purge C record for the process, then you zero many of the accounted fields, > change your JPI$_ACCOUNT, and continue.  Then you can have theB ACCOUNTING utilitity generate reports so you divide your processor6 time, I/O counts, etc across multiple billed projects.  G Some of the places I've worked used things like this so a project group D could accurately bill computer time to multiple projects sharing the same system.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:34:54 +0200 , From: "Ferry Bolhar" <bol@adv.magwien.gv.at>! Subject: Re: Accounting Questions 5 Message-ID: <1157992494.862610@proxy.dienste.wien.at>    Larry Kilgallen:  H > A lot of codes in STARLET are _not_ used.  Many people will not botherF > trying to figure out their purpose until you can prove that they are > ever found in nature :-)  K That's true, of course. But since these symbols already existed in VMS 5.5, G (and perhaps in earlier versions), I don't think they are "reserved for  futureL use", so I assume they are still here as placeholders for meanwhile obsolete4 features, and I just was curious to know which ones.  H I have no access to source listings, but perhaps someone with access, ifI interested too, could look in the job controller listings to see what the  job D controller does when a packet is sent to it (using $SNDJBC) with oneE of these symbols and tell me. But again, it's not important, just for 
 curiosity.   Greetings, Ferry   --   Ing Ferry Bolhar  Magistrat der Stadt Wien - MA 14 A-1010 Wien  E-Mail: bol@adv.magwien.gv.at    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 04:09:16 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> , Subject: Re: All is not well at the HP board9 Message-ID: <c7-dnXPaEs5IipjYnZ2dnUVZ_qidnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:   ( Hope you are more accurate in this post.  
 > Update:  > H > On Sunday, the HP board met in an emergency meeting via teleconferenceC > to discuss the issue. There was no announcement on Dunn's future.  > G > Dunn had told AP that she would resign if asked by the board. She has I > also said that the problem isn't with her but with the board member who ? > leaked the info and the other who had an "angry resignation".   F I've always maintained that there is always a minimum of two sides to H any story.  But from what I've read, (and I've not gone looking), while H Ms Dunn doesn't think she's done any wrong, I doubt most will not share 	 her view.   G > AP reports another meeting to be held tomorrow late in the day. So no > > formal news expected until well after close of business day. >  > G > It was Perkin's laywer who asked the SEC to require HP to divulge the H > details/reasons for Perkin's resignation in its next SEC filing, which< > put the story in the public (and now legal/criminal) eyes.  < Well, I guess that qualifies as an "angry resignation".  :-)   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 07:18:16 -0600 6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam>, Subject: Re: All is not well at the HP board5 Message-ID: <45056218$0$3571$815e3792@news.qwest.net>   H If the HP board has any sense, they wouldn't give Ms Dunn the chance to & resign.  They would outright fire her.  
 Mike Ober.  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:4504F02A.60171D8A@teksavvy.com...	 > Update:  > H > On Sunday, the HP board met in an emergency meeting via teleconferenceC > to discuss the issue. There was no announcement on Dunn's future.  > G > Dunn had told AP that she would resign if asked by the board. She has I > also said that the problem isn't with her but with the board member who ? > leaked the info and the other who had an "angry resignation".  > G > AP reports another meeting to be held tomorrow late in the day. So no > > formal news expected until well after close of business day. >  > G > It was Perkin's laywer who asked the SEC to require HP to divulge the H > details/reasons for Perkin's resignation in its next SEC filing, which= > put the story in the public (and now legal/criminal) eyes.     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:21:52 -0400 . From: "Carl Friedberg" <frida.fried@gmail.com>, Subject: Re: All is not well at the HP boardI Message-ID: <890539d90609110721s5b0b6e66j726e6c0163b1b4d3@mail.gmail.com>   E They can only fire her if HP Bylaws permit that. Normally (Home Depot D notwithstanding) board members are elected by, and serve at the will of, the shareholders. YMMV.    Carl  A On 9/11/06, Michael D. Ober <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> wrote: I > If the HP board has any sense, they wouldn't give Ms Dunn the chance to ( > resign.  They would outright fire her. >  > Mike Ober.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2006 06:55:30 -0700' From: "tadamsmar" <tadamsmar@yahoo.com> " Subject: Auto reboot fails on DS10B Message-ID: <1157982930.383309.326820@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>  > I have an Alphaserver DS10 that does not automatically reboot.  E I get the message "DQA0.0.0.0.13.0 has no media present or is disable D via RUN/STOP switch" when the system rebooted due to a power outage.  @ It use to reboot OK.  But now it halts and I have to enter the B command.  $ I wonder if anyone can explain this?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 07:14:43 -0700 * From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos-remove.com>& Subject: Re: Auto reboot fails on DS10) Message-ID: <op.tfpwitmftte90l@hyrrokkin>   J On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 06:55:30 -0700, tadamsmar <tadamsmar@yahoo.com> wrote:  @ > I have an Alphaserver DS10 that does not automatically reboot. > G > I get the message "DQA0.0.0.0.13.0 has no media present or is disable F > via RUN/STOP switch" when the system rebooted due to a power outage. > B > It use to reboot OK.  But now it halts and I have to enter the B
 > command. > & > I wonder if anyone can explain this? >   	 What does   ( WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$GETENV("Auto_action")   return?    --  E Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:34:30 +0000 (UTC) . From: Dale Dellutri <ddelQQQlutr@panQQQix.com>& Subject: Re: Auto reboot fails on DS10, Message-ID: <ee3s5m$64b$1@reader2.panix.com>  E On 11 Sep 2006 06:55:30 -0700, tadamsmar <tadamsmar@yahoo.com> wrote: @ > I have an Alphaserver DS10 that does not automatically reboot.  G > I get the message "DQA0.0.0.0.13.0 has no media present or is disable F > via RUN/STOP switch" when the system rebooted due to a power outage.  B > It use to reboot OK.  But now it halts and I have to enter the B
 > command.  & > I wonder if anyone can explain this?  ? DQA0 is a CD-ROM drive.  Do you want to reboot from the CD-ROM?   5 You should look at the console environment variables: 
   auto_action 
   boot_dev   boot_osflags
   bootdef_dev   > You can look at these on the running system by something like:   $ a = f$getenv("AUTO_ACTION") 
   $ sho sym a 
 and so on.   --  7 Dale Dellutri <ddelQQQlutr@panQQQix.com> (lose the Q's)    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:37:03 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)& Subject: Re: Auto reboot fails on DS102 Message-ID: <06091109370372_20200290@antinode.org>  ' From: "tadamsmar" <tadamsmar@yahoo.com>   G > I get the message "DQA0.0.0.0.13.0 has no media present or is disable F > via RUN/STOP switch" when the system rebooted due to a power outage.  E    You automatically boot from the CD drive?  (Or is that an ATA hard  disk?)         >>>show bootdef_dev        >>>show device  B > It use to reboot OK.  But now it halts and I have to enter the B
 > command.  *    Specifying a particular device, or not?  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2006 10:45:34 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com  Subject: CETS 2001C Message-ID: <1157996734.165752.246470@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   E Tuesday morning, I was woken up by my cell phone.  My wife had called G me at my hotel room in Anahiem to tell me that a plane had run into the > World Trade Center.  I turned on the news and we wondered what> happened.  Then the second plane hit.  And everything changed.  ? We gathered in the hotel lobbies and watched the news.  We were F shocked, stunned, crying, angry, and wondering what had happened.  WhyE had this happened?  Slowly, information starting becoming known.  The F Pentagon was hit, the 4th airliner crashed.  I was far from my family,F separated by a disaster, and was helpless.  At lunch, it was announcedG that CETS was cancelled.  All flights were cancelled, so I was stranded / there with hundreds of others, with no purpose.   D But we didn't take it lightly.  Quickly, many attendees wanted to doE the event anyway.  We were here, and no threat like that was going to ? stop our event, or our lives, from going on.  Virtually all the F speakers there signed up to do their sessions.  We weren't alone.   We> all were amongst known business partners, fellow speakers, andF associates.  But more, many of us had been to previous events - we all5 were among good friends, and we supported each other.   E The sessions continued on, we learned from each other, networked with C each other, and helped each other out.  The outing to Knott's Berry G Farm provided some well-needed distraction from the continued stream of E news coverage.  It wasn't as light-hearted as previous events, but it F brought us together in a special way.  The terror may have stalled us,- but we were determined to not let it stop us.   E The event finally finished as it was scheduled.  The FAA was going to E resume flights, but it was going to take time to get people home.  My E wife had arranged a van reservation for me, since it was unclear if I C would be able to get a flight.  Bob Drinjak, Steve Smiley, and John G Wisniewski joined me.  And that was the best way to complete CETS 2001, ? was taking a long, unexpected adventure home with good friends.   C I'll never forget CETS 2001.  It was the worst, and yet, it was the ? best event I ever attended.  Thank you Sue, and countless other H speakers, attendees, workers, staff, and friends that made it a success.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2006 09:38:46 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk. Subject: Re: Disk Storage for AlphaServer DS20B Message-ID: <1157992726.389276.200440@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>  G One of our internal systems is a DS20 and that has had one of the Alpha A SmartArray cards, formerly in a DS15, in it for a few months.  It @ works, though whether it's officially supported would be another matter.   G It has the Storageworks RAID software on the VMS host and is configured B with a couple of big partitions.  IIIRC, there are about six 146GBC Storageworks drives in an MSA30 shelf.  Since the shelf can take 14 - drives, this should get you to what you need.    Steve    Malcolm Dunnett wrote:< > In article <oOiMg.14994$Ca4.13149@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,K >     "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@icusc.com> writes:  >  > > Malcolm  > > P > > Thanks for the PLUG, but please don't give people ideas about building their > > own Ebay sourced solutions. : > > It's very detrimental to our business and my salary!!! > >  > : >    Well I did mention you as the first source, didn't I? > : >    I didn't know if the OP was a deep pocketed business,8 > an educational institution or a hobbyist. It's only if8 > your eminently fair prices are too high for his budget$ > that I'd recommend the Ebay route. > A >    Buying this stuff on Ebay is not for the faint of heart, but @ > if you have more time than money and don't mind doing your own@ > maintenance and troubleshooting ( eg a hobbyist ) and you're a@ > bit of a gambler it can be a good way to get some decent stuff > at rock bottom prices. > ; >    fwiw this stuff is getting rather scarce on Ebay these  > days anyway.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 04:14:02 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> E Subject: Re: DISMOUNT foreign tape crashes with VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100 9 Message-ID: <Xq6dnacdk5VuhZjYnZ2dnUVZ_oadnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Robert Deininger wrote:  >>  If the time 3 >> since V8.3 release is relevant, I don't see how.  > F > Something about warrantee ? Aren't there  jurisdictions in the worldF > where the vendor would be forced to provide major bug fixes for freeB > within a certain amount of time of software becoming available ? >  > M >> Do you think there is someone better able to field customer calls than the  >> support center?   > B > This assumes everyone has access to the support centre. Are HP'sH > business proactices such that anyone buying softrware or t5he right toD > an upgrade gets free support (aka: access to support centre) for aJ > certain amount of time ? If not, then some customers may have purchangedI > aa licence-only for 8.3 and have no access to the support centre to get  > that critical patch.  H Perhaps you should research the issue before taking any shots at anyone.  H While I haven't checked lately, the last time I checked, VMS comes with D a 90 day warranty.  Such would provide access to the support center.  C For those with support, and with access to the new release via the  5 support, they also have access to the support center.   E So just who might have an unserviced need that you're worrying about?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2006 03:51:59 -0700  From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>E Subject: Re: DISMOUNT foreign tape crashes with VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100 C Message-ID: <1157971919.572426.289410@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   $ I see that the patch kit is still in1 ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V8.3/   E and the patch kit is not marked as on hold. Its been a couple of days F since this problem was found. Enough time to drop the kit from the ftp site and issue a hold notice.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2006 05:43:41 -0700  From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>E Subject: Re: DISMOUNT foreign tape crashes with VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100 C Message-ID: <1157978621.131023.313600@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>   D I have just recived an advisory that the VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100 patchF kit for OpenVMS Alpha V8.3 and the VMS83I_ADDENDUM-V0100 patch kit forC HP Integrity Servers running OpenVMS V8.3 are being placed on hold.   D I see that the patches are still on the ftp site but, following this* advisory, I expect them to disappear soon.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2006 08:45:32 -0700( From: "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com>0 Subject: Re: Encrypted backup questions/conceptsC Message-ID: <1157989532.765244.193520@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > Rich Jordan wrote: > E > >      Is Ask the Wizard 9820 what you're referring too as detailed J > > directions?  We don't have a magnetic disk 'to spare' on most systems;I > > there's either only one (nonremoveable) disk or the data disk doesn't K > > have free space to spare for installation of a copy of the OS.  However F > > where we do have a sizeable data disk, thats certainly a very good > > option.  > > F > >      Something to play with this weekend.  I still don't have V8.3D > > media but I can certainly test as much as possible with V8.2 and > > layered products.  >  > N >    Ask The Wizard (9820) is a greatly reduced version of the documentation IR > provided for the recording-related part of the OpenVMS V8.3 EFT -- documentationP > which wasn't incorporated into the released V8.3 documentation for reasons not > germane to this discussion.  > O >    If you were in the V8.3 EFT and still have the related mail, pull down the F > add-on recording kit that was announced during the EFT, and pull theP > documentation out of the PCSI kit.  When last I looked, the PCSI kit was still > at the cited location. > N >    An extended version of the information in (9820) and derived from the EFTQ > materials will serve as the basis of an article on this topic I'm submitting to R > the next OpenVMS Technical Journal.  I have found the documentation in this area' > -- from any source -- is rather weak.  > R >    Given that used StorageWorks 36 GB disk bricks are going for circa US$100 andP > often less (depending on the particular mounting options), I'd scrounge a SCSI+ > disk or two.  (CD and DVD media is slow.)    Hoff, E      thanks for the info.  Unfortunately we didn't participate in the D V8.3 field test; we knew then that there would be absolutely no timeC for it given the current workload.  Hopefully we'll be able to make C something work with your ATW posts, and we look forward to the tech  article.  D      A number of the customers in question have single DS10s, one orC two internal disks, and a CD and DAT drive filling the non-hot-swap D front bays.  The one-drive folks could add a second internal; not myF preference but possible.  The two drive folks... depends on free spaceF I guess.  Cheap as disks are, a second controller, cabling, enclosure,E etc for an external (potentially removeable) device does start to add B up, but a removeable would be preferable for a variety of reasons.  '      Thanks for taking time to respond.    Rich   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 02:25:40 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>/ Subject: Re: HP announces new Integrity servers G Message-ID: <zdOdnVbEmqX5nJjYnZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- 3 >> From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net]  " >> Sent: September 9, 2006 8:36 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com2 >> Subject: Re: HP announces new Integrity servers >> >> Main, Kerry wrote:  > 
 > [snip..] > 7 >>> Sigh .. How many times does it need to be repeated?  >>> D >>> Customers are looking for supported, stable and highly available% >>> solutions to run their business.   >>> > >>> The ones making the business decisions are not burning up  >> their meetings % >>> talking about techie chip stuff.  A >> Exactly:  they are looking at *standardizing* (for reasons of   >> cost and @ >> support complexity that have nothing to do with 'techie chip  >> stuff') on A >> the *least expensive viable solution*.  And beyond any shadow   >> of a doubt B >> that's x86-64 in any situation where that solution *is* viable. >> >  > Again, you are in the weeds.  B Rather than blowing such smoke with zero supporting evidence, try F refuting either statement above to which you purport to be responding:  H 1.  Refute the assertion that customers are seeking to standardize (for G reasons of cost and support complexity) on *the least expensive viable   solution*, and/or   G 2.  Refute the assertion that the least expensive viable solution will  9 be x86-64 in any situation where that solution is viable.   F Otherwise, shut up:  you're getting tedious and offering no redeeming - substance to make that worth putting up with.   +   Customers move to platforms like Windows, ? > or Linux or OpenVMS for many reasons other than the basic HW.   F We're not talking about hardware, moron:  we're talking about overall  cost-effectiveness - see above.   	   That is F > not the issue. When you choose a new std as you call it, you need toF > look at the entire HW + OS + App work to move it. The HW is only one > albeit small consideration.   H Well, I have to agree that this certainly explains why virtually no one G in their right mind would consider for a moment moving *to* VMS unless  G they literally had no alternative:  if one accepts the major thesis in  H the article (the article that you recommended as worth reflecting upon) D that Unix systems offer functional parity with VMS, then anyone who G isn't already on VMS would have to be insane to take on the effort and  F risk of moving there rather than staying with or moving to a far more 0 familiar platform that's less expensive as well.   > J > Every platform has strengths and weakneses and challenges. Having statedG > this, look at the issues facing someone migrating to a totally new HW + > platform + a new OS on your beloved X86 -   C Stop the presses:  Kerry has discovered that there are barriers to  H migration!  Of course, this doesn't mean that people never migrate - it 1 just means that they need a good reason to do so.   I And when such a reason surfaces (be it difficulty in obtaining expertise  H in your current environment, disgust with a vendor - I won't even start F listing the possible causes for that one, desire to consolidate one's H outlier platforms into a single business-wide standard, etc.), then you H migrate (and, for the reasons noted, almost always away from VMS rather  than toward it).   > J > Windows - that means .Net which is an OO approach to programming that inJ > most cases means a total re-write of your current 3GL based application.J > Heck, ask anyone who has even tried to move a Windows VB6 application toJ > .Net. Try converting mountains of DCL batch code to something similar in
 > Windows.  H Weren't you the one just belittling any significance to such bits&bytes D issues?  At the CIO level, the answer is simple:  if the advantages E outweigh the costs, just do it; otherwise, start figuring out how to  H reduce the costs of doing it, because that's still the direction you'll > eventually be taking to simplify the corporate infrastructure.  G VMS may be a lovely old Aston Martin in excellent shape, but it really  B doesn't have much of a place in the new 'fleet-oriented' world of > corporate IT described in the article that (once again) *you* H recommended we pay heed to.  Too bad:  we'll just have to visit it in a  museum once in a while.   A   Throw away 10-15 years work and start over. Yes, tools can help E > but it's the carpenter that builds the house, the tools only help.   > H > Keep in mind re-testing and re-certifying your application will likelyI > take longer than the actual porting, so 18+ months is likely very light J > estimate (if you are lucky enough to find resources that understand bothC > OpenVMS and Windows code). And of course, in production, it means H > continually re-testing your App's with the monthly security patches onG > your new platfiorm. And of course, unless you want to re-engineer the F > architecture (as opposed to straight port), then get used to running: > everything on one system with fail-over clustering only.  A More of those bits&bytes that you were so recently attempting to  E convince us just weren't important any more.  Not to mention a straw  H man, since (at least for the moment) migration from VMS to Unix (x86-64 E Solaris being an excellent choice for those whose needs exceed their  E confidence in Linux) is the obvious answer for anyone who has qualms   about migrating to Windows.   G If you buy into the contention (in the article which you felt deserved  H serious attention) that Unix and VMS offer equivalent functionality for E the Brave New Corporate ITer, anyway.  And if you don't, why did you  A recommend that article?  Did you even read it, or just 'skim for  A content' (and only the content that you, albeit mistakenly, felt  % supported your own dubious position)?   5 (Another rhetorical question, if you hadn't guessed.)    ...   B >>>>> Its probably worth providing this link again for reflection:8 >>>>> http://www.itjungle.com/tug/tug102005-story04.html9 >>>>> "Stop Arguing About Cars and Start Managing Fleets" G >>>> What an interesting citation for someone who purports to be a VMS  A >>>> advocate.  That article states clearly, multiple times, and   >>>> in multiple   >>>> ways, that  >>>>A >>>> "We find ourselves living in a world of parity; at least as   >>>> far as Unix, @ >>>> OS/400, and VMS servers are concerned. What I mean by this  >> is that as A >>>> far as base technology goes, we have a level playing field.   >>>> The Windows  > >>>> and Linux operating systems have made some progress, but  >>>> still have to  C >>>> make up some ground in terms of scalability, availability and   >>>> workload C >>>> management in order to compete head-to-head with the dominant  < >>>> Unixes--Solaris, AIX, and HP-UX--or IBM's OS/400-based  >>>> iSeries platform C >>>> or Hewlett-Packard's OpenVMS platform, which may as well both   >>>> be Unix in D >>>> terms of its uptime, resiliency, security, and sophistication." >>>> > : > You can selectively cut and micro-analyze what you want,  I But *you're* the one trying to get us to pay attention to some parts and  F ignore others, Kerry:  I'm happy to take the article in its entirety, B and indeed have been doing just that (while keeping you honest by E pointing out the areas that you find inconvenient, since you seem to  J have missed them in your own rather superficial digestion of its content).     but the point E > of the article was all about not getting caught up with the Ghz, GB $ > techie and OS religion discussions  B Exactly:  like not getting caught up in things like fail-over vs. H shared-disk clustering, for example (you know, the distinction you were   just trying to emphasize above).  $   and instead focus on real business> > issues like how can IT help the business be more successful?  D And cost-cutting via standardizing and consolidating is a tactic of I which today's CEO seems inordinately enamored, so what better basis upon  # which to build the entire approach?   E After all, Itanic was supposedly all about standardizing - it's just  D that as things have turned out a different platform is becoming the C *real* standard, but that hardly invalidates all those really good  < arguments that originally expected Itanic to fill that role.  F Right?  I mean, a lot of those arguments came out of mouths very much 
 like yours...    > B >>>> Think (if you are capable) of what that means:  that even as  >>>> of today no  B >>>> one needs VMS at all (given that just-as-good Unix expertise  >>>> is so much A >>>> easier to come by), that increasingly no one needs anything   >>>> but x86-64 B >>>> (as scalable and reliable solutions on that platform already  >>>> exist up to  @ >>>> quite reasonable system sizes - 64 cores from IBM, 16 - 32  >> cores from B >>>> multiple sources for Opteron, and even larger configurations  >>>> on the way ? >>>> for both), and that standardizing on that single platform   >>>> (with all its  = >>>> commodity volume/cost advantages and upon which can run   >>>> high-end Unix in 3 >>>> the form or Solaris, dirt-common Windows, and   >>>> intermediate-level Linux)  / >>>> thus has become something of a no-brainer.  >>>> > F > The "we don't need mid or high end systems, we can run it all on ourG > distributed systems!!" low end mantra has been around for the last 20  > years. Give it a break.   E I fear you not only appear to be illiterate (given the material just  F above which you seem to think you're responding to) but asleep at the F switch as well:  x86-64 is available in *up to 64-core systems* which E offer partitioning facilities equivalent to the systems you'd prefer  G people to be considering.  Since when is a 64-core system anything but   high-end (let alone mid-range)?   I Even 8- to 16-core systems are definitely well into the mid-range, idiot.    > C > Yes, these lower end platforms are getting better, but the bar is 7 > constantly being raised as well with other platforms.   F Say, what?  These 'lower end platforms' are a hell of a lot closer to C the top of Itanic's performance range than Itanic is to the top of  C POWER's performance range - so while the bar indeed is still being  D raised I'm afraid those doing the raising are not those paying your I salary (at least assuming your salary has some significant connection to   Itanic sales).  D In fact, x86-64 is now very close to overtaking Itanic entirely and C making it look *really* irrelevant (neither the kind of leader its  G proponents hoped for nor 'industry-standard' in anything like the same   sense that x86 is).      Customers are A > doing massive consolidation projects which requires very highly ' > available, secure, stable back ends.   > G > Again you keep talking in the HW weeds. Customers need to think about / > the whole package (HW, OS, App architecture).   H And Itanic has how many applications compared with x86, again?  And how A many OSs?  And how many suppliers?  And how much existing market  G penetration?  And how much customer interest, despite a dozen years of  F rampant hype and over 4 years (I won't even count Merced) of actively ; displaying its wares (such as they are) in the marketplace?   B It's Itanic that's in the weeds, Kerry - with proponents like you D jumping up and down and saying "Hey, over here!" as if anyone cared.   > J > The low end mantra is still very much based on "one-app, one system", soG > even if you could run multiple Apps on that high end commodity system B > you are talking about, what happens is that you end of having toF > virtualize the heck out of to meet that one app, one system culture.  G Partitioning - you've heard of it, right?  IBM certainly has, and it's  I right there inside their expandible-to-64-cores (within a few months, to   128 cores) x86-64 systems.  G And in Unisys's as well (though their current ceiling may be 32 cores,  C moving to 64 cores in a few months - still certainly qualifying as   'high-end').  F Of course, that's only applicable if you insist people run Windows on C their large x86-64 boxes (though even then, as I just pointed out,  E there's no virtualization necessary if you prefer partitioning).  If  I they run Unix (remember, the article that you recommended says it's just  C as functional as VMS), there's no 'one app, one system culture' to   overcome in the first place.   ...   I > As opposed to your view, you can also run on a much cheaper HW platform * > (IA64) than your current one (Alpha/VAX)  B But that ignores the article's thesis that what OS you're running @ doesn't matter any more, Kerry:  you keep acting as if VMS were I *important*, whereas in reality most of the world doesn't even know that  G it's still alive and most of those who do know it's still alive aren't  1 very confident of how long it will stay that way.   H If Unixes offer equivalent functionality (as the article - *your* cited I article - clearly states), then *they're* the main alternative, not just  H VMS-on-Itanic.  And anyone who agrees that Unix *is* a good alternative E isn't likely to give Itanic (regardless of what it's running) even a    first, let alone a second, look.  G I've snipped all the bits&bytes babble that you continued with because  I both you (as established in your earlier post) and the article which you  I recommended clearly agree that it's irrelevant in today's OSs-at-parity,   fleet-oriented world.    ...   H >>> But feel free to keep harping on the techie Mhz and Ghz cool-aid .. A >> You're the only one trying to divert the conversation in that   >> direction, @ >> Kerry:  I didn't say a word about *anything* technical, just 
 >> about the  @ >> kinds of high-level management issues that appeal to - well,  >> high-level C >> management that makes the final decisions, as the article noted.  >> > I > I'm not sure what Mgmt types you know, but you are talking about issues > > (cores, X86-64 vs IA64 vs Power 5+) that techies talk about.  I Only to make it clear (despite your frantic hand-waving to the contrary)  I that for x86-64 systems scalability is no longer a limitation that keeps  F them off the mid-range-to-high-end playing field (and occasionally to A refute some particularly egregious specific drivel on your part).    ...   < >> And remember that the initial server HW costs are one of  >> the smallest # >>> components of the overall cost. @ >> Exactly:  that's why platforms with dwindling popularity are  >> generating F >> dwindling interest, while despite their limitations platforms like * >> Windows and Linux are growing robustly. >> > 1 > Tell that to almost all the med-large Customers   E *I* don't have to tell it to them, Kerry:  Gartner and IDC do a more  G than adequate job.  If you're not familiar with server market share by  > platform and the trends therein, perhaps you should become so.   [more drivel snipped]   = >>> Imho, as an example of the importance of benchmarks today A >> Why do you continue to try to divert the conversation and set   >> up straw A >> men?  (That was a rhetorical question, of course:  anyone who  
 >> knows you  1 >> at all understands very well why you do that.)  >> > H > Puuulease, you raised the point about OpenVMS and why it was important$ > to have a benchmark on the new HW.  F Er, no:  what I suggested was that seeing HP care enough about VMS to E benchmark it would be nice - I said nothing about the *result* being  
 important.  "   I was simply responding to that.I > Remember this statement you made - " That would be great, since I can't G > remember the last time VMS's owners bothered to benchmark anything on  > VMS."   D Yup - just as I remembered:  I guess you don't read *anything* very 
 carefully.   > @ >> When you're on the losing side of an argument, continuing to  >> bluster for  C >> the benefit of the audience just gives them more opportunity to  G >> understand how full of shit you really are.  This is not doing your  E >> employer any favors:  just as with the current BoD fiasco, they'd  ? >> probably prefer just to minimize all conversation about the   >> issue - they  > A > And who is now trying to divert the conversation? Leave the BOD  > discussion to another thread.   G Just an example, Kerry - one I though might resonate with someone like  8 you who's so much more concerned with form than content.   > F > Bill, here is a question for you - have you ever considered taking aG > people relationship and communications course?  I think you will find B > that cursing at people in public places is likely not one of the1 > recommended best practices for getting respect.   F I'm respected by the people whose respect I care about, Kerry - which H isn't all that many these days, though there are likely of course a lot ; of people out there whom I'd include if I knew them better.   H And I have no respect (or tolerance) for knaves who attempt to convince I people that black is white nor for the fools who enable them.  So I have  I no hesitation at all of calling a spade a spade, using whatever language   seems appropriate to the task.  B Until our corporations and government stop being such destructive E sleazes I'll continue to be as outspoken as necessary in confronting  7 them, and the sock-puppets like you who front for them.    > G >> don't need to convince those who already understand and are already  E >> flocking to the *real* 'industry-standard' solutions that HP will  H >> happily sell them, and would just as soon those who don't understand ? >> remain in the dark and continue to pay through the nose for   >> their legacy 
 >> cash cows.  >> > ( > What cool aid have you been drinking?  > G > Based on what you are saying, all mainframe Customers will be soon be % > running on x86's as well - right?     H Yet another straw man, of course:  as I continued with (in the material I which you quote just below), the exceptions are those who have no viable  I alternative - and there are still quite a lot of such people, though the  I numbers continue to dwindle slowly as existing installations die out and  5 the functionality of available alternatives improves.    > G >> Not that there are likely to be all that many people here who still  A >> don't understand, of course:  most of those who felt they had   >> any viable H >> alternative to VMS have either left already or are waiting for their ; >> current systems to become inadequate while alternatives   >> continue to mature. >>	 >> - bill  > H > Yep, they can't wait to jump on this new magic commodity platform that' > has all the answers to world hunger.    I No, you're just (again) acting like a racetrack tout interested far more  I in a commission than in your customer's benefit and thus trying to twist   words to meet that end.   H But, of course, over the years it's become clear that you consider that $ to be your job, so nothing new here.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:31:58 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com / Subject: Re: Locating early versions of VAX/VMS 0 Message-ID: <87ac56h6lt.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  4 "vaxorcist" <hoelscher-kirchbrak@freenet.de> writes:   > prep@prep.synonet.com wrote:  D >> Well, you see if I had an Alpha runnable copy of DSC2 I'd be ableL >> to possibly get a VMS V2 system disk restored. Or with dry rot and sticky >> shed, perhaps not...    > Great news!!!   ) > What kind of media is your VMS V2.x on?  > - 9-track Tape > - disk (what model)    > I'm confident we'll save it!  E Tape. I'd not even bet on being able to get it off the reel! Although 7 it should be from before sticky-shed became prevalent.    . I also have a copy of BSD 4.0z here somewhere.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2006 09:51:31 -0700 From: georgepag@adelphia.net6 Subject: Per Core Licensing Support for OpenVMS V8.2-1C Message-ID: <1157993490.982083.226980@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   E Attached is a Customer Advisory that is being released concerning Per ( Core Licensing support on OpenVMS V8.2-1   George Pagliarulo  ECO Release Process  OpenVMS Sustaining Engineering Hewlett-Packard Company     / OpenVMS V8.2-1 Per Core Licensing (PCL) Support  CUSTOMER ADVISORY    DESCRIPTION C The licensing and terminology for OpenVMS for Integrity servers has G changed from Per Processor License (PPL) to Per Core License (PCL).  HP G Integrity servers running OpenVMS Version 8.2-1 may not be able to load ? newer PAKs, introduced in September 2006, that support Per Core  Licensing (PCL).   *DETAILSB Per Core Licensing has been integrated into V8.3, and is available> through  patch kit VMS821_LMF-V0200 for OpenVMS Version 8.2-1.G Customers running OpenVMS Version 8.2-1 without this patch kit will not ? be able to load the new PAKs supporting PCL.  Systems that were E purchased with Factory Installed Software (FIS) prior to September do > not include the VMS821_LMF-V0200 patch kit.  These systems are@ identified as OpenVMS I64 V8.2-1 R03.  HP Integrity systems withG Factory Installed Software identified as OpenVMS I64 V8.2-1 R04 include = the VMS821_LMF-V0200 patch kit and are able to load PCL PAKS.   G Users can use several methods to determine if their system will support  PCL:  E * Execute a PRODUCT SHOW HISTORY command on the running system to see F if the VMS821_LMF-V0200 patch kit has been installed.  If it is listed3 in the history report, the system will support PCL.   G * When first booted, and the FIS dialog begins, the welcome banner will F display the version of the FIS image.  If the FIS version is listed asB OpenVMS I64 V8.2-1 R03, the system will not support PCL unless theF VMS821_LMF-V0200 patch kit is installed.  If the FIS version is listedE as OpenVMS I64 V8.2-1 R04, the patch kit is already installed and the @ system will support PCL.  Note that the FIS version will only be( displayed on initial boot of the system.  D * The FIS image version is listed in the Introduction section of the- release notes.  Release notes can be found at 2 SYS$SYSDEVICE:[VMS$COMMON.SYSHLP]FIS.RELEASE_NOTES    G If the system does not support PCL you must obtain the VMS821_LMF-V0200 G patch kit and install it on the system before you can install paks that D use PCL.  The patch kit can be obtained from the ITRC patch download< sites at http://www.itrc.hp.com/service/patch/mainPage.do or ftp.itrc.hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:45:45 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com  Subject: Re: phone0 Message-ID: <87irjuh8qu.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  = koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:   e > In article <o92dnYufoauMyG7ZnZ2dnUVZ_o-dnZ2d@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:    D >> DECnet will work over any transport the cluster traffic will use.  ? >    You cannot do host-to-host DECnet communication over DSSI.    Yes you can, just like a CI.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2006 09:39:13 -0700 From: georgepag@adelphia.net( Subject: Problem with V8.3 Addendum KitsC Message-ID: <1157992753.542586.129370@q16g2000cwq.googlegroups.com>   ? Following are hold notices that are being released for the V8.3 B Addendum kits that were recently released for Alpha and Integrity:      7               *** OpenVMS ECO Kit Hold Notification ***      Date: Sept 11, 2006    Kit Name: VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100  Release Date:  Sept 11 ,2006     PROBLEM STATEMENT:  F A problem has been discovered with the VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100 patch kitE for OpenVMS V8.3 for Alpha Systems. This kit is being placed on hold.        PROBLEM SYMPTOM:  F After installation of the VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100 patch kit, executing a@ MOUNT/FOREIGN command for a tape followed by a DISMOUNT/NOUNLOAD2 command of the tape will result in a system crash.  ? This problem affects Alpha systems unning OpenVMS V8.3 with the * VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100 patch kit installed.         WORKAROUND:   F Engineering is aware of this problem and is developing a solution thatA will be distributed in the VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0200 patch kit. It is E expected that this kit will ship within the next week. Until that kit 0 is available users can take the following steps:    D o If you have installed the VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100 patch kit and usedG the /SAVE_RECOVERY_DATA switch during patch installation, the patch kit 3 can be removed with the PRODUCT UNDO PATCH command.   G o If you have installed the VMS83A_ADDENDUM-V0100 patch kit and did not B use the  /SAVE_RECOVERY_DATA switch during patch installation, the/ system can be restored from a previous back up.      ALTERNATIVE KIT:   None.     5 (c)Hewlett PAckard Company 2006. All Rights Reserved.         4            *** OpenVMS ECO Kit Hold Notification ***     Date: Sept 11, 2006    Kit Name: VMS83I_ADDENDUM-V0100  Release Date:  Sept 7 ,2006      PROBLEM STATEMENT:  F A problem has been discovered with the VMS83I_ADDENDUM-V0100 patch kitF for OpenVMS V8.3 for HP Integrity Servers. This kit is being placed on hold.        PROBLEM SYMPTOM:  F After installation of the VMS83I_ADDENDUM-V0100 patch kit, executing aA MOUNT/FOREIGN  command for a tape followed by a DISMOUNT/NOUNLOAD 2 command of the tape will result in a system crash.      E This problem affects HP Integrity Server systems running OpenVMS V8.3 3 with the VMS83I_ADDENDUM-V0100 patch kit installed.          WORKAROUND:   F Engineering is aware of this problem and is developing a solution that@ will b distributed in the VMS83I_ADDENDUM-V0200 patch kit. It isE expected that this kit will ship within the next week. Until that kit / is available users can ake the following steps:     D o If you have installed the VMS83I_ADDENDUM-V0100 patch kit and usedD the  /SAVE_RECOVERY_DATA switch during patch installation, the patch6 kit an be removed with the PRODUCT UNDO PATCH command.  G o If you have installed the VMS83I_ADDENDUM-V0100 patch kit and did not B use the  /SAVE_RECOVERY_DATA switch during patch installation, the/ system can be restored from a previous back up.      ALTERNATIVE KIT:   None.     5 (c)Hewlett PAckard Company 2006. All Rights Reserved.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 07:18:26 -0700 * From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos-remove.com> Subject: Re: psftp) Message-ID: <op.tfpwo0vjtte90l@hyrrokkin>   2 On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:20:17 -0700, Bob Koehler  =  0 <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:  ; > In article <op.tfkhglg8tte90l@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden"  =   ! > <tom@kednos-remove.com> writes: 3 >> I attempt to get a file from a VMS system to W2k  >> >> psftp> get STARLET.ZIP A >> remote:/dpli$/decpli/starlet/cia20060906/STARLET.ZIP =3D3D>  =    >> local:STARLET.=3D > F >    I think psftp has implemented the concept of ASCII vs. IMAGE modeI >    transfers.  It looks like your fetching the ZIP file in ASCII mode.=    >    Try the bin command.  >   $ Here is the answer from Jacob NevinsF This is a known bug in PSFTP that causes trouble with VMS systems. I'm( not aware of any workaround, I'm afraid.I <http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/wishlist/fxp-short-re= 	 ads.html>   I BTW,  I inadvertently did a TYPE on a binary file which put the terminal=   I into a state where the character set displyed is very strange.  Is there=   a way to reset it?   -- =  E Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2006 07:31:54 -0700 From: wendzinski@yahoo.com) Subject: SYS$CRELNM Access Mode / FORTRAN B Message-ID: <1157985114.445817.74060@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>  A What value do I use to specify executive access mode in the third E argument of SYS$CRELNM in FORTRAN?  Is there something similar to the E 'LNM$PROCESS', 'LNM$JOB', etc. that is used in the fourth argument to  specify logical table?   Thanks.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2006 07:37:05 -0700  From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>- Subject: Re: SYS$CRELNM Access Mode / FORTRAN C Message-ID: <1157985425.196013.136880@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    something like   %REFERENCE PSL$C_EXEC    >From the help? "Access mode to be associated with the logical name. The acmode D argument is the 32-bit address (on VAX systems) or the 32- or 64-bitF address (on Alpha and I64 systems) of a byte that specifies the access mode.   A The access mode associated with the logical name is determined by G maximizing the access mode of the caller with the access mode specified G by the acmode argument, which means that the less privileged of the two E is used. Symbols for the four access modes are defined by the $PSLDEF  macro.  B You cannot specify an access mode more privileged than that of theG containing table. However, if the caller has SYSNAM privilege, then the G specified access mode is associated with the logical name regardless of   the access mode of the caller. "   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:23:46 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com = Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC 0 Message-ID: <87r6yih9rh.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  / "Andrew" <andrew_harrison@symantec.com> writes:    ...   E > However there is a difference here, no other vendor charged for the E > basic networking software required to link two or more systems from E > different vendors together except DEC, the norm for the rest of the 7 > industry was that this was part of the base platform.   C > To make matters worse the base platforms including networking for F > competing OS platforms invariably cost less than OpenVMS without any > addtional networking support.   D You never bought X.25 from Unisis obviously! BTW, how much is it for Solaris?  E > DEC quite clearly didn't understand the dynamics of the market they ? > were operating in, what they attempted to do was analogous to D > someone like Ford trying to charge extra for an accelerator pedal.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:09:59 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com = Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC 0 Message-ID: <87venuhaeg.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  R helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:  @ > I still think DEC's big mistake was letting go of the academic	 > market.   F Amen! The changes when Vaxen and VMS shipped sent many off to unixlandE and BSD. Then, many considered unix to be way inferior to RSTS/E! For  good reasons too.   A > Of course, they might have "lost" money on software, but on the E > other hand it was software which was also developed AND PAID FOR by F > other markets.  Why essentially give it away?  Because students willD > become familiar with it and thus a) want to work with it when theyD > are no longer students and b) be around to hire when someone wants! > people familiar with DEC stuff.   D Yep, so all those RSTS weenies moved up the pole, and bought VMS for the company.  E And the other woke up to slapping together a <chip de jour> system, a B code generator for cc, amd code to make it page like a 780 and offC they went. Without BSD, thanks to the `no VMS at that price' crowd, & they could well have been stillbourne.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.B ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ---------------------: For a secure high performance FTP using SSL/TLS encryption upgrade to SurgeFTP B ----  See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_surgeftp.htm  ----   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:34:35 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com = Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC 0 Message-ID: <87mz96h99g.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  1 Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> writes:   C > You ban connection of privately owned stuff to your intranet. For B > those employees who need to connect company owned equipment from> > home or when on the road, that is locked down appropriately.  F Yeah, right! Look up the security check that scattered about 100 thumb3 drives about the car park. On Counterpane I think.    % Hum I originally wrote `Counterpain'!    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.499 ************************