1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 29 Sep 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 534       Contents: Re: 4, 6, 8, or 80 cores? ) Re: adding a disk and putting it "online" ) Re: adding a disk and putting it "online" ) Re: adding a disk and putting it "online" ) Re: adding a disk and putting it "online" ) Re: adding a disk and putting it "online" ) Re: adding a disk and putting it "online" & Anyone still using Wordperfect VMS 7.3: Re: Can a satellite survive the reboot of its boot server?: Re: Can a satellite survive the reboot of its boot server?: Re: Can a satellite survive the reboot of its boot server?. Re: hobbyist licensing site down / helping out. Re: hobbyist licensing site down / helping out. Re: hobbyist licensing site down / helping out. Re: hobbyist licensing site down / helping out  Hub vs Switch : SCS, LAT, DECNET$ Re: Hub vs Switch : SCS, LAT, DECNET( Re: Huge XFC bug (<lf><cr> in messages !( Re: Huge XFC bug (<lf><cr> in messages !) Re: Intel to add new instructions to 8086 ) Re: Intel to add new instructions to 8086 ) Re: Intel to add new instructions to 8086 
 Java Error2 Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering2 Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering2 Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering2 Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering2 Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering2 Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering2 Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering2 Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering2 Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering2 Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering2 Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering2 Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering Normal temperature for DS10L ?" Re: Normal temperature for DS10L ?" Re: Normal temperature for DS10L ?3 OpenVMS support contracts for hobbyists: A scenario 7 Re: OpenVMS support contracts for hobbyists: A scenario 7 Re: OpenVMS support contracts for hobbyists: A scenario 7 Re: OpenVMS support contracts for hobbyists: A scenario ; Options for the future of VMS systems after last order date ? Re: Options for the future of VMS systems after last order date ? Re: Options for the future of VMS systems after last order date ? Re: Options for the future of VMS systems after last order date ? Re: Options for the future of VMS systems after last order date / Re: VMS 8.2 complaint: screen cleared at login. / Re: VMS 8.2 complaint: screen cleared at login. / Re: VMS 8.2 complaint: screen cleared at login. / Re: VMS 8.2 complaint: screen cleared at login. B Re: [OVMS-Alert] OSU HTTP Server System Info Disclosure WeaknessesB Re: [OVMS-Alert] OSU HTTP Server System Info Disclosure Weaknesses  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:32:31 -0700 = From: "John Gemignani, Jr." <john@nfw-invalid.cibtrikker.com> " Subject: Re: 4, 6, 8, or 80 cores?6 Message-ID: <avGdnWbeosdsMoHYnZ2dnUVZ_qOdnZ2d@dls.net>  5 "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message  6 news:451bad08$0$24184$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com... > K > "John Gemignani, Jr." <john@nfw-invalid.cibtrikker.com> wrote in message  2 > news:M9-dnSN63YPd5IbYnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@dls.net... >> > [...snip...] >>M >>    Uh oh. Looks like they may do some time in Moore's Pokey for exceeding  E >> the speed limit. By the way, the 80 cores were FPUs, allowing for  & >> parallel floating point processing. >> > I > Could you elabotate on this statement? I was under the impression that  7 > this would be like 80 SMP processors on a single die.  > F > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core (then  check external links)I > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_microarchitecture (then  check   > external links)  >  > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  > Ontario, Canada.# > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/  >  >   I See Andrew's response and go back to the original article cited and they  L talk about floating point. I believe that there may be a video on the Intel J site where engineers present about the 80-core research project. I follow F most of this stuff now as I'm working on x86 now. It's sad, I haven't * powered up my Alphas in over a year. Sigh.   John     ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 10:48:32 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>2 Subject: Re: adding a disk and putting it "online"* Message-ID: <451be0c4@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: I > Since I have had no responses to my long post under a different title,  ( > I'll try a short post with this title. > I > If I physically add an SBB (an RZ28 disk) disk to a running VAX system, H > in order to be able to use it, is the best (only) thing to do to issue > the command  >  >    SYSGEN> AUTOCONFIGURE ALL > G > I've done this many times in the past with no problem.  Now, it froze I > the process doing it, caused members of shadow sets served by that node C > to be dismounted (after throwing the whole shadow sets into mount D > verification for a while first) and put a single disk (a CD in the8 > internal CD drive) into permanent mount verification.   O    Bummer.  Most OpenVMS systems around don't have local hot-swap SCSI, and if  N the SCSI bus traffic should get interrupted when the brick arrives or departs ? the enclosure (and the SCSI bus itself), bad things can happen.   Q    I've seen what you report on occasion -- yes, I've also hot-swapped bricks as  P an expediency (on boxes that can be rebooted; non-production systems), but once O in a while something gets nailed/wedged/locked and the process or the bus gets  N into an odd state.  And once in a while, SYSMAN can get itself snarled when a 4 (local, non-hot-swap) disk arrives or departs "hot".  Q    There are SCSI controllers around which can selectively and transparently and  O temporarily quiesce the bus and can allow for disk hot-swaps, and SAS and SATA  J devices avoid the whole daisy-chain bus design.  SAS and SATA devices and Q controllers use a star topology, not a daisy-chain -- the host controller or the  N host drivers might still get befuddled on occasion, but it's rather easier to ) quiesce a bus with just one widget on it.   K    But most SCSI controllers (and the SCSI host driver stack, too) can get  M befuddled when a signal transient nails whatever packet was in flight on the  Q bus.  I've never dug around to see if it was the driver that was snarled, or the  O SCSI controller, or even something with the firmware in the brick having "gone  N insane" and locked up -- I knew I was being "bad" and I knew I "got caught"...   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:54:43 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)2 Subject: Re: adding a disk and putting it "online"$ Message-ID: <efh9a3$tb5$2@online.de>  H In article <efgh3u$3ae$1@pcls6.std.com>, moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:   T > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > J > >If I physically add an SBB (an RZ28 disk) disk to a running VAX system,I > >in order to be able to use it, is the best (only) thing to do to issue  > >the command   >  > >   SYSGEN> AUTOCONFIGURE ALL  > H > >I've done this many times in the past with no problem.  Now, it frozeJ > >the process doing it, caused members of shadow sets served by that nodeD > >to be dismounted (after throwing the whole shadow sets into mountE > >verification for a while first) and put a single disk (a CD in the 9 > >internal CD drive) into permanent mount verification.   > J > VMS only supports certain configurations for "hotswapping".  The reason,F > as you found out, is it doesn't always work.  The AUTOCONFIG may put/ > devices into states the drivers don't expect.   E Is an RZ28 in a BA353 a supported configuration for this?  Note that  + help warns about some other configurations:   F           If you use the AUTOCONFIGURE ALL command on a running systemA           with active UNIBUS or Q-bus devices, it could result in !           unpredictable behavior.   " I have no UNIBUS or Q-bus devices.  B > In the future, you may try to configure only the specific drive.F > AUTOCONFIGURE /SELECT=DKB300 or whatever, to configure that specificC > drive (only).  Even then, you may  put the SCSI bus driver into a @ > funky state, but it should be OK.  Wildcards work (/SEL=DKB*).   Thought of that, but HELP says:   F        You can specify a device-type code as shown in the table listed@        under the /SELECT qualifier. You can include a controller*        designation but not a unit number.    Is HELP wrong here?   I I used /LOG, and only the new device was mentioned, not the ones already   up and running.    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:01:20 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)2 Subject: Re: adding a disk and putting it "online"$ Message-ID: <efh9mf$tb5$4@online.de>  7 In article <451be0c4@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, Hoff Hoffman " <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:   1 > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: K > > Since I have had no responses to my long post under a different title,  * > > I'll try a short post with this title. > > K > > If I physically add an SBB (an RZ28 disk) disk to a running VAX system, J > > in order to be able to use it, is the best (only) thing to do to issue > > the command  > >   > >    SYSGEN> AUTOCONFIGURE ALL > > I > > I've done this many times in the past with no problem.  Now, it froze K > > the process doing it, caused members of shadow sets served by that node E > > to be dismounted (after throwing the whole shadow sets into mount F > > verification for a while first) and put a single disk (a CD in the: > > internal CD drive) into permanent mount verification.  > Q >    Bummer.  Most OpenVMS systems around don't have local hot-swap SCSI, and if  P > the SCSI bus traffic should get interrupted when the brick arrives or departs A > the enclosure (and the SCSI bus itself), bad things can happen.  > S >    I've seen what you report on occasion -- yes, I've also hot-swapped bricks as  R > an expediency (on boxes that can be rebooted; non-production systems), but once Q > in a while something gets nailed/wedged/locked and the process or the bus gets  P > into an odd state.  And once in a while, SYSMAN can get itself snarled when a 6 > (local, non-hot-swap) disk arrives or departs "hot". > S >    There are SCSI controllers around which can selectively and transparently and  Q > temporarily quiesce the bus and can allow for disk hot-swaps, and SAS and SATA  L > devices avoid the whole daisy-chain bus design.  SAS and SATA devices and S > controllers use a star topology, not a daisy-chain -- the host controller or the  P > host drivers might still get befuddled on occasion, but it's rather easier to + > quiesce a bus with just one widget on it.  > M >    But most SCSI controllers (and the SCSI host driver stack, too) can get  O > befuddled when a signal transient nails whatever packet was in flight on the  S > bus.  I've never dug around to see if it was the driver that was snarled, or the  Q > SCSI controller, or even something with the firmware in the brick having "gone  P > insane" and locked up -- I knew I was being "bad" and I knew I "got caught"...  F That sounds like a good explanation.  Maybe I should make sure that I ( shove the SBB back in very quickly.  :-)  F Another approach would be to dismount as many disks as possible, i.e. G everything but the system disk.  I could do a DISMOUNT/POLICY=MINICOPY  C from an ALPHA for shadow-set members, so they can be added back in  I quickly.  As it turns out, tonight I plan to do the other VAX (also with  A BA353 and RZ28), so I can try this safer approach.  (Even safer,  H presumably, would be to set VAXCLUSTER to 0, but standalone, add in the I device, wait for the shadow copy to complete, then reboot, but that does  F take more time.  I could reboot, add the SBB then let the shadow copy I take place when the machine boots, but I like to do MOUNT/CONFIRM when I  # am physically moving disks around.)    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:51:44 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)2 Subject: Re: adding a disk and putting it "online"$ Message-ID: <efh94g$tb5$1@online.de>  5 In article <451B6872.5375C21B@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei ' <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:    1 > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: K > > If I physically add an SBB (an RZ28 disk) disk to a running VAX system,  > I > > I've done this many times in the past with no problem.  Now, it froze K > > the process doing it, caused members of shadow sets served by that node  > > to be dismounted   >  > D > Does adding the disk cause SCSI conflicts ? Is the Disk gettin theJ > proper SCSI ID which doesn't conflict with other devides (especially the > SCSI controller) ? > ? > Also, is your adding of the disk disrupting bus termination ?    No, no and no.  I I tried the same thing again and it worked as expected.  I was logged in  G via LAT from a DECterm on an another node in a different (but suitably  C priviledged) account, rather than from the console with the SYSTEM  * account, but I'm sure that doesn't matter.  F Scanning the archives, I found a few posts which said stuff along the H lines of "it usually works, but don't be surprised if XXX occurs if you H try it on a machine which is up and ruunning", where XXX is one or more  of the symptoms I mentioned.  C Maybe it depends on what traffic is on the bus when the command is   issued.    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:55:47 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)2 Subject: Re: adding a disk and putting it "online"$ Message-ID: <efh9c2$tb5$3@online.de>  E In article <St-dnRf2vpMvT4bYnZ2dnUVZ_vWdnZ2d@libcom.com>, Dave Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:   1 > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: K > > Since I have had no responses to my long post under a different title,  * > > I'll try a short post with this title. > > K > > If I physically add an SBB (an RZ28 disk) disk to a running VAX system, J > > in order to be able to use it, is the best (only) thing to do to issue > > the command  > >   > >    SYSGEN> AUTOCONFIGURE ALL > G > The proper procedure would be to configure just the new disk.  Don't  G > ask, I've never had to perform this procedure, so I cannot help with   > actually doing it.  + Help specifically says this isn't possible:   F        You can specify a device-type code as shown in the table listed@        under the /SELECT qualifier. You can include a controller*        designation but not a unit number.   H > The AUTOCONFIGURE ALL causes probing of all devices to see if they're ; > present.  That could cause problems with working devices.  > B > Some serious study of the HELP in SYSGEN should get you started.   See above.  :-|    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 01:56:09 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) 2 Subject: Re: adding a disk and putting it "online"( Message-ID: <efhufp$qfg$1@pcls4.std.com>  R helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:  I >In article <efgh3u$3ae$1@pcls6.std.com>, moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com  >(Michael Moroney) writes:    K >> VMS only supports certain configurations for "hotswapping".  The reason, G >> as you found out, is it doesn't always work.  The AUTOCONFIG may put 0 >> devices into states the drivers don't expect.  F >Is an RZ28 in a BA353 a supported configuration for this?  Note that , >help warns about some other configurations:   I don't think so.   C >> In the future, you may try to configure only the specific drive. G >> AUTOCONFIGURE /SELECT=DKB300 or whatever, to configure that specific D >> drive (only).  Even then, you may  put the SCSI bus driver into aA >> funky state, but it should be OK.  Wildcards work (/SEL=DKB*).     >Thought of that, but HELP says:  G >       You can specify a device-type code as shown in the table listed A >       under the /SELECT qualifier. You can include a controller + >       designation but not a unit number.     >Is HELP wrong here?  @ No, it's been a while since I've tried configuring only a single? drive like that, so you'll have to do /SELECT=DKB (or whatever) I which will poke other things on that bus but leave everything else alone.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:29:17 -0400 " From: "mebos" <mebos@casitron.com>/ Subject: Anyone still using Wordperfect VMS 7.3 8 Message-ID: <tKWdnQw118Bbx4HYnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@aci.on.ca>   Need some help with printing   Alec     ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:36:37 +0200 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> C Subject: Re: Can a satellite survive the reboot of its boot server? J Message-ID: <paul.sture.nospam-FE1E9E.20363728092006@mac.sture.homeip.net>  G In article <8764f8ks4f.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, prep@prep.synonet.com   wrote:  3 > Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> writes:  > C > > As in "I'll just issue the boot command and we'll go to lunch".  > 9 > Hah! That is the only way I've ever got a TU-58 INITed.    :-)   I My standard installation kit for customers in those days alwqys included  D some good reading matter and a good cryptic crossword puzzle or two.   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2006 16:11:38 -04003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> C Subject: Re: Can a satellite survive the reboot of its boot server? . Message-ID: <mdd7izn92f9.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  . Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:   > Paul Sture wrote: 6 >> In article <odq1eivLtXa+@eisner.encompasserve.org>,2 >>  Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:  I >>> Not being the original poster, I cannot answer authoritatively, but I < >>> would _guess_ that what you win is a TU-56 cartridge :-)  B >> As in "I'll just issue the boot command and we'll go to lunch".  H > IIRC, that would be the TU58.  The DECtape-II, a cartridge tape drive.F > The VAX-11/725 and VAX-11/730 had a brace of these drives, while the8 > VAX-11/750 and VAX-11/751 series had but one of these.  D I learned to know and hate them on the HSC50's connected to my 20's.  N > I haven't seen a VAX that booted from a TU56.  That was a DECtape-I, a spoolM > tape drive, and comparatively dated by the time VAX systems were available.   K Just "DECtape".  Calling the TU58 "DECtape-II" was pretty much an insult to K the original, which was a high-reliability medium.  TU58 cassettes could be I made nonfunctional simply by staring at them, it often seemed; TU56 tapes J could have holes punched in them and the data survived thanks to redundant recording techniques.   O VAX was the first architecture from DEC^WDigital that did *not* support DECtape O (which originated--in the form that was used on DEC equipment--on the PDP-1) on $ at least some members of the family.   --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 01:30:22 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) C Subject: Re: Can a satellite survive the reboot of its boot server? ( Message-ID: <efhsve$t9l$1@pcls6.std.com>  . Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:  Q >   I haven't seen a VAX that booted from a TU56.  That was a DECtape-I, a spool  L >tape drive, and comparatively dated by the time VAX systems were available.    H I don't know about booting from it, but there was a TU56 drive connectedH to a 780 with a custom-written driver running VMS V1 at one of the showsH several years ago.  As far as I know, the TU56 is still hidden in the ZKF lab, beside an air conditioner, with a note from Andy Goldstein sayingI 'don't scrap me'.  (the 780, which was lovingly restored by VMS engineers  was accidently sent to scrap)    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2006 12:02:54 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com 7 Subject: Re: hobbyist licensing site down / helping out B Message-ID: <1159470174.824137.223910@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>   JF Mezei wrote: H > I figured My Cathay was doing some heavy duty compiles and had lowered$ > the priority of the web server :-)  C Actually it was some page-thrashing - too many Apache subprocesses! ! I'm configuring more page file...    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:50:37 +0200 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> 7 Subject: Re: hobbyist licensing site down / helping out J Message-ID: <paul.sture.nospam-13A9DB.20503728092006@mac.sture.homeip.net>  B In article <1159458738.705242.24880@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,=  "William.W.Webb@gmail.com" <William.W.Webb@gmail.com> wrote:    > I > I shall make a couple of emails, followed by phone calls if they should 	 > bounce.  >   A ISTR that at one point (several years ago?) they were asking for  I volunteers to spread the workload. Due to other commitments at that time  H (not forgetting the dodgy ISP I was stuck with), I couldn't help, but I C would be only too happy to do so now. As I am sure other would too.    --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2006 12:32:50 -0700; From: "William.W.Webb@gmail.com" <William.W.Webb@gmail.com> 7 Subject: Re: hobbyist licensing site down / helping out C Message-ID: <1159471969.965560.245340@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Tom Garcia wrote:  > > 	 > > Hiya,  > > 9 > > In the past few days I've been browsing the forums at N > > http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/ , and noticed the site only intermittently  > > responding to page fetches.. > A > Yesterday, when I asked for my ALpha VMS licences, the site was F > extremely slow. (like click on "SUBMIT" and go take a snack). But itG > worked. And interestingly as soon as I did click on the final page, I I > got the email with the lincece within a couple of seconds. (faster than 2 > the time to display each step in the process :-) > H > I figured My Cathay was doing some heavy duty compiles and had lowered$ > the priority of the web server :-)  > It's Cathey, I emailed him, and both montagar.com/hobbyist and) openvmshobbyist.com are back in business.   1 And the root cause was not what you hypothesized.    WWWebb   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:08:00 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 7 Subject: Re: hobbyist licensing site down / helping out + Message-ID: <451C47B7.350972E@teksavvy.com>    Paul Sture wrote: B > ISTR that at one point (several years ago?) they were asking for% > volunteers to spread the workload.    E One possible issue here is "distributing" the software that generates F the PAK. I have to assume that Mr Cathay has signed papers garanteeingF proper use and controls of that software. Distributing this may not be> so simple (as well as synchronizing the membership databases).   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 00:45:13 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ) Subject: Hub vs Switch : SCS, LAT, DECNET , Message-ID: <451CA4CF.FEF0EDE3@teksavvy.com>  J [VELO]   [WHEEL]  [BIKE1]                       [BIKE]    [MAC]  [PRINTER]E   +          +       +       +++++++++++++++       +        +       + E   +          +       +       +             +       +        +       + J [**********HUB********************]   [**********SWITCH/ROUTER***********]     BIKE is the new DS10L alpha.    C BIKE was able to boot from [VELO] via MOP, but not without problems 	 later on  K (for instance, when VAXCLUSTER=2 it would jam or crash during system boot).   ; I configured DECNET and LAT on BIKE. But could not connect.   G I never though the switch could be the problem. But when I plugged BIKE H in the HUB, all of a sudden, MC LATCP SHOW SERVICES on BIKE revealed theP existance of the other nodes, and from VELO, LATCP saw BIKE. DECNET also worked.  F And low and behold, when connected to the HUB, the new Alpha now joinsH the cluster without problem too ! I didn't think that could be the case.  F But I guess a residential switch/router just doesn't have the logic in it to handle these protocols.   B (this is a Netgear RT314 with the Zyxel firmware in it. The switch portion is unmanaged.)  C So, when buying a switch, is there anything one needs to look at to G ensure that the protocols used by VMS will be passed through properly ?    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:58:45 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)- Subject: Re: Hub vs Switch : SCS, LAT, DECNET 2 Message-ID: <06092823584584_2020028F@antinode.org>  - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   I > I never though the switch could be the problem. But when I plugged BIKE J > in the HUB, all of a sudden, MC LATCP SHOW SERVICES on BIKE revealed theR > existance of the other nodes, and from VELO, LATCP saw BIKE. DECNET also worked.      "thought"?  "existence".   H > And low and behold, when connected to the HUB, the new Alpha now joinsJ > the cluster without problem too ! I didn't think that could be the case.      That's "Lo, and behold!".  H > But I guess a residential switch/router just doesn't have the logic in > it to handle these protocols.  > D > (this is a Netgear RT314 with the Zyxel firmware in it. The switch > portion is unmanaged.)  H    I have the cheapest thing I could find, a GigaFast EZ1600-S (16-port,E 10/100MHz, unmanaged), and I never had any such trouble.  It's been a G while, but I'm pretty sure that I had a similar 8-port unit before this ; one, and has no more trouble with it.  I don't know if it's G "residential", but it was cheap.  It's also separate from my (Cisco 678  DSL) IP router.   H    A switch should not be thinking about any of the protocols.  That's aE job for a router.  (Which is a good thing, as some of those protocols  are not routable.)  -    Perhaps you just buy the wrong cheap junk.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 04:32:28 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) 1 Subject: Re: Huge XFC bug (<lf><cr> in messages ! [ Message-ID: <rdeininger-2909060032290001@dialup-4.233.173.204.dial1.manchester1.level3.net>   F In article <Z7OdnSSjU9ERVobYnZ2dnUVZ_vWdnZ2d@comcast.com>, "Richard B.( Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:   >Ian Miller wrote: >  >> JF Mezei wrote: >>  E >>>Yeah, and it is already fixed. But it is exactly because this is a K >>>sporadic message that is not often seen that I felt it worthy of mention I >>>since it then allows the code maintainers to fix it the next time they ( >>>get around to working on that module. >>   >>  H >> Reporting it here helps the parts of the VMS community that read this
 >> newsgroup.  >>  J >> Reporting it via official channels gives the hp bean counters something9 >> to count and helps keep the code maintainers employed.  >>   > G >Reporting a bug via "official channels" requires that you pay for the  K >privilege!  Some of us are not fortunate enough to have service contracts.   H These messages are constructed by hand and sent directly to OPA0:.  TheyI come out very early, long before goodies like the message facility or any ! run-time libraries are available.   J A fix is expected.  Not high priority.  An XFC patch is in the pipeine; itJ will NOT have a fix.  There's a good chance the next release vehicle after that will have it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 01:01:01 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Huge XFC bug (<lf><cr> in messages ! , Message-ID: <451CA881.EDEA4549@teksavvy.com>   Robert Deininger wrote: J > These messages are constructed by hand and sent directly to OPA0:.  TheyK > come out very early, long before goodies like the message facility or any # > run-time libraries are available.   G You might also wish to look at the CNXMGR messages earlier in the boot.  I have seen <LF><CR> there too.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:48:40 -0600 6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam>2 Subject: Re: Intel to add new instructions to 80866 Message-ID: <451c0af5$0$25782$815e3792@news.qwest.net>  F The x86, and by extension x64, instruction set has always been a CISC J instruction set.  Internally, Pentium and later chips have been RISC with C the CISC instructions implemented in microcode.  As for adding new  E instructions, Intel has done this with every new version of the 8086   processor's descendents.  
 Mike Ober.    6 "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos-remove.com> wrote in message # news:op.tgleskcgtte90l@hyrrokkin... B On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 21:01:01 -0700, John Doe <jdoe@doe.org> wrote:  D I rather doubt that, 8086 hasn't been produced for at least 15 years   > from: ] > http://news.com.com/Intel+to+extend+x86+for+new+tasks/2100-1006_3-6120335.html?tag=nefd.top  >  > ##H > The new instructions are scheduled to debut in the "Penryn" generation@ > of processors, due to start arriving in 2008 and built using a3 > manufacturing process with 45-nanometer features,  > <...> E > The instructions fall into two broad categories. First is SSE4, the I > fourth generation of Streaming SIMD (single instruction, multiple data) F > Extensions. SIMD lets a chip take the same action with more than oneJ > data element, instead of requiring an instruction to be paired with eachC > element--an approach that economizes many operations dealing with D > graphics, video and audio. SSE4 also will improve high-performance > computing, Intel said. > C > The second category accelerates two specific applications. One is F > searching and pattern-matching, useful for tasks such as handwritingJ > recognition and genetic research. The other is cyclical redundancy checkH > (CRC) technology, which monitors the integrity of data transfer to and+ > from storage systems and other computers.  >  > ## >  > I > Question: is it my imagination or is Intel moving in the exact opposite ; > direction of RISC by adding fairly complex instructions ?  >  > G > Let say, for the sake of my question, that VMS was already running on I > that architecture. Is there much work involved in making VMS run on the H > new version of the chip that supports new instructions ? For instance,I > it is very cumbersome to have a version of VMS run on both a version of F > the chip that doesn't have the instruction and a version of the chip
 > that does ?  > F > Or would it just mandate that starting with version X, you must have@ > generation Y of the chip with support for those instructions ? > H > or would VMS simply not be changed but allow the standard compilers to4 > generate binary code that uses those instructions?       --  F Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:15:33 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>2 Subject: Re: Intel to add new instructions to 8086* Message-ID: <451be719@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  O Somebody posting from the same configuration and using the same terminology as   JF :-)  wrote:  I > Question: is it my imagination or is Intel moving in the exact opposite < > direction of RISC by adding fairly complex instructions ?   K    RISC or CISC or EPIC/VLIW or is a debate of architectural purity and of   competing design theories.  P    'Can you sell "it" at a profit?' is the question that centrally matters in a  commercial enterprise.    G > Let say, for the sake of my question, that VMS was already running on I > that architecture. Is there much work involved in making VMS run on the ; > new version of the chip that supports new instructions ?    P    That depends on how the instructions are added.  If the new instructions are - a superset, no, there's no additional effort.    > For instance, I > it is very cumbersome to have a version of VMS run on both a version of F > the chip that doesn't have the instruction and a version of the chip
 > that does ?   Q    OpenVMS largely sticks to the core Alpha instruction subset.   Code generated  L by various compilers can and does use the AMASK/IMPLVER mechanisms and code N generation to select the path, and can dynamically select shareable images or O other loadable code.  (There's an example of AMASK/IMPLVER on the Freeware and  J at the Ask The Wizard site.)  The existing compilers can be asked to more K aggressively generate code for a particular instruction set generation (or  P later), or to more aggressively generate parallel code sections -- there exists ( a related discussion in the OpenVMS FAQ.  O    OpenVMS provides emulation, meaning that code containing newer instructions  N can be executed on older Alpha microprocessors.  The application continues to ? operate on the older Alpha microprocessors, albeit more slowly.   F > Or would it just mandate that starting with version X, you must have@ > generation Y of the chip with support for those instructions ?  P    There are specific cases within OpenVMS where this was done for reasons like Q the I/O bus interface for the device -- various graphics controllers have device  N drivers which expect a flat address space and the flat address space requires H specific instruction-set support.  Swizzled addressing is somewhat more  difficult and somewhat slower.  H > or would VMS simply not be changed but allow the standard compilers to4 > generate binary code that uses those instructions?  O    Most new generations of Alpha microprocessors have added instructions, with  M the biggest additions (in terms of widespread use and performance) being the  ' byte-word instructions added with EV56.   O    VAX systems have had instruction set changes, but the biggest change was to  ? move a pile of instructions out of the core and into emulation.    --  O    If there is a sufficient market predicted for a hypothetical port to 64-bit  O IA-32e or for a massive back-port to 16-bit 8086 to justify the effort, then a  O port might (will?) happen.  But until there's a business case, it's all just a  O continued and interesting discussion -- and I am aware of no plans for porting   OpenVMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:03:29 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 2 Subject: Re: Intel to add new instructions to 8086, Message-ID: <451C46A9.390E9B14@teksavvy.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote: P >    If there is a sufficient market predicted for a hypothetical port to 64-bitP > IA-32e or for a massive back-port to 16-bit 8086 to justify the effort, then aP > port might (will?) happen.  But until there's a business case, it's all just aP > continued and interesting discussion -- and I am aware of no plans for porting
 > OpenVMS.  C Come on ! Everyone knowns that you are going to take the wadload of E "amicable parting" money from HP and then devote lots of time to help F complete the FreeVMS project that will run on 64 bit 8086s. (since you@ know the VMS code by heart, it will probably take you just a few$ afternoons to complete the project).  E After that, your company will merge with Bruden and Process and offer E support services ( la Red Hat) for freeVMS on the 8086 platform. And H FreeVMS will grow faster than OpenVMS and you'll do an IPO on the NASDAQE and before long, your company will have greater net worth than HP :-)  ;-) :-)    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2006 14:31:01 -0700' From: "benitos" <benitos@stcc.cc.tx.us>  Subject: Java Error C Message-ID: <1159479061.884188.325300@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>    Hello,E The dev team is having problems running a new SCT provided .com file. A It uses Java. We basically get a "java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: 9 com/sct/messaging/bif/banner/BannerBatchProcessor" error.    Running  GONZO|BANNER  >java -version java version "1.3.1"0 Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard EditionA Classic VM (build 1.3.1-7, 12/15/2003-21:59, native threads, jit)     GONZO|BANNER  >sho log classpath    "CLASSPATH" =@ ".:/jdbc_lib/classes12.zip:/jdbc_lib/jta.zip:/jdbc_lib/jndi.zip" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)  GONZO|BANNER  >   , GONZO|SYSTEM  >dir sys$common:[java$131.com]  # Directory SYS$COMMON:[JAVA$131.COM]    JAVA$118_CANCEL_SETUP.COM;1 =                            3/69       29-MAY-2003 15:11:19.11  (RWED,RWED,RE,RE)  JAVA$122_CANCEL_SETUP.COM;1 =                            6/69       29-MAY-2003 15:11:19.35  (RWED,RWED,RE,RE)  JAVA$130_CANCEL_SETUP.COM;1 =                            7/69       29-MAY-2003 15:11:19.54  (RWED,RWED,RE,RE)  JAVA$131_CANCEL_SETUP.COM;1 =                            8/69       29-MAY-2003 15:11:19.74  (RWED,RWED,RE,RE)   JAVA$131_RUN_CONTROL_PANEL.COM;1=                            1/69       29-MAY-2003 15:11:20.73  (RWED,RWED,RE,RE)  JAVA$131_SETUP.COM;1=                           29/69       29-MAY-2003 15:11:20.94  (RWED,RWED,RE,RE)  JAVA$CHECK_ENVIRONMENT.COM;1=                            9/69       29-MAY-2003 15:11:21.16  (RWED,RWED,RE,RE)  JAVA$CONFIG_WIZARD.COM;1=                           33/69       29-MAY-2003 15:11:21.44  (RWED,RWED,RE,RE)  JAVA$FILENAME_CONTROLS.COM;1=                            7/69       29-MAY-2003 15:11:21.66  (RWED,RWED,RE,RE) = STREAM_LF.FDL;1            1/69       29-MAY-2003 15:11:25.25  (RWED,RWED,RE,RE)   " Total of 10 files, 104/690 blocks. GONZO|SYSTEM  >     B .JAR file is located in another disk and other jar files are beingD used. Do I need to move these sys$common files over there?? Redefine
 classpatch?        Any help would be appreciated.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2006 13:54:27 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ; Subject: Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering 3 Message-ID: <ejWQJ1GL3Pes@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <1159451895.040566.233710@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes:   E > Thus the population of OpenVMS service and development engineers is : > actually INCREASING, and the average age is coming down.  D    Age discrimination against workers over 40 is illegal.  A patternB    of such actions might get HP into more trouble than last week's    investigation techniques.  H    (Discrimination on the basis of salary, often coincidental with age,     is not illegal).    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2006 18:59:52 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon); Subject: Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering + Message-ID: <4o2kd8FcfmitU1@individual.net>   3 In article <ejWQJ1GL3Pes@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <1159451895.040566.233710@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes:  > F >> Thus the population of OpenVMS service and development engineers is; >> actually INCREASING, and the average age is coming down.  > F >    Age discrimination against workers over 40 is illegal.  A patternD >    of such actions might get HP into more trouble than last week's >    investigation techniques.  C Discrimination based on age may be illegal in the letter of the law E and evil in principal, but it is also alive and well, even within the  government itself.   bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2006 13:01:05 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com ; Subject: Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering B Message-ID: <1159473665.818825.95060@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>   johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: G > The corporation sees that they get more "bang for the buck" by hiring I > several new graduates than retaining one of us old guys. The last thing G > you, as customers want to see is for OpenVMS engineering to stagnate, F > and 5-10 years from now be completely vacated when everyone retires.H > This way it's far more likely there will be engineers into the future.  % Just for fun, the original VMS group: I http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/openvms_history/timeline/photos/vmsgrp.jpg    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:29:56 -0600 # From: Jim Mehlhop <jim@mehlhop.org> ; Subject: Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering 5 Message-ID: <451c3ed6$0$3572$815e3792@news.qwest.net>    davidc@montagar.com wrote:  ! > johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:  > G >>The corporation sees that they get more "bang for the buck" by hiring I >>several new graduates than retaining one of us old guys. The last thing G >>you, as customers want to see is for OpenVMS engineering to stagnate, F >>and 5-10 years from now be completely vacated when everyone retires.H >>This way it's far more likely there will be engineers into the future. >  > ' > Just for fun, the original VMS group: K > http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/openvms_history/timeline/photos/vmsgrp.jpg  > " Sure wish that picture was bigger. Jim    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:40:25 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ; Subject: Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering + Message-ID: <451C4142.DFDE88B@teksavvy.com>   ! "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" wrote:  > E > There is a parallel (although shorter) thread on ITRC about Hoff's    A Replacing an engineer with multiple young people at a call centre E doesn't result in more frequent/extensive VMS system releases or does A not result in maintaining/increasing VMS system software quality.   F A corportation,s real assets are its people. Grunts who are programmedH to read scripts at a call centre provide no value. Everyone has them. ItB is those exceptional people who come out with ideas that make yourC products better than you competitor's that give you the most value.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:50:23 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ; Subject: Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering 9 Message-ID: <h9Gdnayfpt4E3IHYnZ2dnUVZ_rqdnZ2d@libcom.com>    johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: H > There is a parallel (although shorter) thread on ITRC about Hoff's andF > others leaving OpenVMS Engineering.  For those that don't visit overF > there I'm cross-posting one particularly interesting part (hopefullyE > the OP will forgive me) which puts an positive spin on events.  The H > clip follows, it is in answer to the question if the particular person+ > was still at OVE (OpenVMS Engineering)...  > I >  "Well, since you asked... yes and no. For now, yes, but I've also been H > selected in the latest round of Work Force Reduction (WFR). <..snip..> > E > I am also "parting amicably" from HP, and that's NOT intended to be A > sarcastic. Mr Hurd is following a strategy of reducing costs by H > restructuring the workforce. I'm not sure how or why management selectG > particular individuals, that's not really relevant. The same thing is I > happening in most large corporations, and there's not a lot of point in A > complaining about it. Just accept what's happening and move on.  > A > In the long term this should really be seen as a GOOD thing for C > OpenVMS. Consider that most of us in engineering and services are F > getting fairly old! Where are the young replacements for the future?H > Although it's called "WFR" it really isn't, as every person who leavesG > from Nashua or Sydney is replaced by *several* people in the new call F > centres and engineering hubs. These are young, keen graduates, readyG > and able to take on the maintenance and development OpenVMS products.  > E > Thus the population of OpenVMS service and development engineers is F > actually INCREASING, and the average age is coming down. This is theD > future. Granted they don't (yet) have the experience that Hoff andI > myself have gathered over the decades, but they won't take very long to E > get up to speed. Look at Guy Peleg! He was only with HP for what, 6 H > years? He's younger than my oldest child, and look what he's achieved.E > In effect, he's been replaced by maybe SEVEN people just like him 6 E > years ago. Even if each of them is only HALF as good as Guy, that's ! > still a huge long term benefit.  > G > The corporation sees that they get more "bang for the buck" by hiring I > several new graduates than retaining one of us old guys. The last thing G > you, as customers want to see is for OpenVMS engineering to stagnate, F > and 5-10 years from now be completely vacated when everyone retires.H > This way it's far more likely there will be engineers into the future. > C > What YOU can do as customers is support the product by purchasing D > service contracts. Without revenue, the product WILL die. That's aF > simple economic fact. So, USE your contract. Log cases to ask adviceD > and report issues. More cases mean more engineers needed to handleE > them. You should also feed back any complaints or criticisms of the I > quality of products or service you receive, but, MORE IMPORTANTLY, also A > feed back any positives or praise for individuals who give good 
 > service. > D > The biggest threat to OpenVMS is silence from customers. Make your > voices and opinions heard."  >  > H > There are some good points made, especially about breaking the silenceF > and making yourself heard.  At lot of us here are just hobbyists nowG > though so I'm not sure how much we can do.  Those of you lucky enough E > still to be using VMS in your job and that do have contract support C > should follow the above advice to the fullest.  Make your support F > calls, ask your questions, be heard, be the squeaky wheel.  Don't be > part of the silence. >  >  >   John H. Reinhardt  >   F You don't want silence?  Ok, I can go along with that.  But you might  not like it.  . What a collection of bullshit rationalization!  @ I guess I wasn't looking when experience stopped being a virtue.  E I guess I wasn't looking when moral integrity stopped being a virtue.   G There are two (2) issues here.  One is shitting on the very people who  G produced an excellent product.  Not a problem for upper management who  C is screwing everyone else to insure their super inflated salaries,  G bonuses, and such.  A real problem for the people who gave the company  H their best years and are now being dumped.  Makes me real sorry to be a C Republican, a Capitalist, and having a low opinion of labor unions.   D The second issue is VMS itself, and the past excellence it has had. I Hire a bunch of people raised on Unix and Windows, and then take bets on  E how long before VMS is infested with such as null terminated strings.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:42:55 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ; Subject: Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering , Message-ID: <451C41D9.E3E3D384@teksavvy.com>   Guy Peleg wrote:@ > When I joined engineering I had 7 years of experience with VMS  E So, instead of giving you a nintendo, your parents gave you a VMS box  when you were 11 ?  # :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:27:19 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> ; Subject: Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering : Message-ID: <1qSdnZpgOvnGx4HYnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@comcast.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: D > In article <4o2kd8FcfmitU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill > Gunshannon) writes:  >  > E >>Discrimination based on age may be illegal in the letter of the law G >>and evil in principal, but it is also alive and well, even within the  >>government itself. >  > I > And there is the law which says the President of the United States must @ > be a) at least 40 years old and b) born in the United States.   - I believe that the constitution say 35 years.  > Shouldn't H > this law be repealed because it contains two cases of discrimination?   D The constitution trumps laws; e.g. anti discrimination, made by the  legislature.  J > (On the other hand, it would keep Schwarzenegger out of the Oval Office,  A I don't think the rest of the US is quite as crazy as California.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:55:12 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>; Subject: Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering G Message-ID: <iO2dnYme0519_YHYnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    Dave Froble wrote:! > johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: I >> There is a parallel (although shorter) thread on ITRC about Hoff's and G >> others leaving OpenVMS Engineering.  For those that don't visit over G >> there I'm cross-posting one particularly interesting part (hopefully F >> the OP will forgive me) which puts an positive spin on events.  TheI >> clip follows, it is in answer to the question if the particular person , >> was still at OVE (OpenVMS Engineering)... >>J >>  "Well, since you asked... yes and no. For now, yes, but I've also beenI >> selected in the latest round of Work Force Reduction (WFR). <..snip..>  >>F >> I am also "parting amicably" from HP, and that's NOT intended to beB >> sarcastic. Mr Hurd is following a strategy of reducing costs byI >> restructuring the workforce. I'm not sure how or why management select H >> particular individuals, that's not really relevant. The same thing isJ >> happening in most large corporations, and there's not a lot of point inB >> complaining about it. Just accept what's happening and move on. >>B >> In the long term this should really be seen as a GOOD thing forD >> OpenVMS. Consider that most of us in engineering and services areG >> getting fairly old! Where are the young replacements for the future? I >> Although it's called "WFR" it really isn't, as every person who leaves H >> from Nashua or Sydney is replaced by *several* people in the new callG >> centres and engineering hubs. These are young, keen graduates, ready H >> and able to take on the maintenance and development OpenVMS products. >>F >> Thus the population of OpenVMS service and development engineers isG >> actually INCREASING, and the average age is coming down. This is the E >> future. Granted they don't (yet) have the experience that Hoff and J >> myself have gathered over the decades, but they won't take very long toF >> get up to speed. Look at Guy Peleg! He was only with HP for what, 6I >> years? He's younger than my oldest child, and look what he's achieved. F >> In effect, he's been replaced by maybe SEVEN people just like him 6F >> years ago. Even if each of them is only HALF as good as Guy, that's" >> still a huge long term benefit. >>H >> The corporation sees that they get more "bang for the buck" by hiringJ >> several new graduates than retaining one of us old guys. The last thingH >> you, as customers want to see is for OpenVMS engineering to stagnate,G >> and 5-10 years from now be completely vacated when everyone retires. I >> This way it's far more likely there will be engineers into the future.  >>D >> What YOU can do as customers is support the product by purchasingE >> service contracts. Without revenue, the product WILL die. That's a G >> simple economic fact. So, USE your contract. Log cases to ask advice E >> and report issues. More cases mean more engineers needed to handle F >> them. You should also feed back any complaints or criticisms of theJ >> quality of products or service you receive, but, MORE IMPORTANTLY, alsoB >> feed back any positives or praise for individuals who give good >> service.  >>E >> The biggest threat to OpenVMS is silence from customers. Make your  >> voices and opinions heard." >> >>I >> There are some good points made, especially about breaking the silence G >> and making yourself heard.  At lot of us here are just hobbyists now H >> though so I'm not sure how much we can do.  Those of you lucky enoughF >> still to be using VMS in your job and that do have contract supportD >> should follow the above advice to the fullest.  Make your supportG >> calls, ask your questions, be heard, be the squeaky wheel.  Don't be  >> part of the silence.  >> >> >>   John H. Reinhardt >> > H > You don't want silence?  Ok, I can go along with that.  But you might  > not like it. > 0 > What a collection of bullshit rationalization! > B > I guess I wasn't looking when experience stopped being a virtue. > G > I guess I wasn't looking when moral integrity stopped being a virtue.  > I > There are two (2) issues here.  One is shitting on the very people who  I > produced an excellent product.  Not a problem for upper management who  E > is screwing everyone else to insure their super inflated salaries,  I > bonuses, and such.  A real problem for the people who gave the company  J > their best years and are now being dumped.  Makes me real sorry to be a E > Republican, a Capitalist, and having a low opinion of labor unions.  > K > The second issue is VMS itself, and the past excellence it has had. Hire  J > a bunch of people raised on Unix and Windows, and then take bets on how C > long before VMS is infested with such as null terminated strings.   I Saying that those are the only two 'issues' with that Pollyanna bullshit  D is being unduly charitable.  If there's anyone out there who really B believes that VMS's dedicated head-count it actually *increasing* H significantly as a result of the Purge of the Ancients (it really would F take someone as gullible as those who unquestioningly bought the 2001 H full-back-flip describing how Alpha really couldn't have kept pace with H Itanic after all), I've got a fantastic deal on a beautiful bridge in a G major Northeastern city (that shares its name with its state) to offer  G them:  believing that HP is actually increasing the long-neglected VMS  H head count while down-sizing the entire corporation by well over 10% is  utterly laughable.  G Aside from the fact that one call-center flunky does not exactly equal  D one core VMS developer anyway, there's clearly some double-counting H going on here:  if it is actually true at all that the call centers are F hiring 6 people for every VMS developer who gets the boot, it is very F likely also true that the call centers are themselves firing around a I half-dozen senior people in order to bring in those inexpensive newbies,  I so the math that says the fired senior VMS developer is being 'replaced'  H by 6 newbies conveniently ignores the other fired senior people who are 0 *also* being 'replaced' by those same 6 newbies.  B Not to mention the questions of exactly where those 6 newbies are F located, or whether they're wholly dedicated to VMS or shared among a  whole bunch of HP products.   H But some people will believe anything, I guess, as long as it lets them 1 ignore painful reality for a little while longer.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:25:54 -0700 * From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos-remove.com>; Subject: Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering ) Message-ID: <op.tgl8xgj9tte90l@hyrrokkin>   H On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:59:52 -0700, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>   wrote:  E > Discrimination based on age may be illegal in the letter of the law G > and evil in principal, but it is also alive and well, even within the  > government itself.  G Well, one good thing about the government is, they don't discriminate    against  stupid and incompetent people.     --  E Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:26:57 -0700 * From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos-remove.com>; Subject: Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering ) Message-ID: <op.tgl8y7j9tte90l@hyrrokkin>   H On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 13:14:23 -0700, Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to  . reply <helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de> wrote:  D > In article <4o2kd8FcfmitU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill > Gunshannon) writes:  > F >> Discrimination based on age may be illegal in the letter of the lawH >> and evil in principal, but it is also alive and well, even within the >> government itself.  > I > And there is the law which says the President of the United States must J > be a) at least 40 years old and b) born in the United States.  Shouldn'tG > this law be repealed because it contains two cases of discrimination? J > (On the other hand, it would keep Schwarzenegger out of the Oval Office,I > but I read somewhere where some member of Congress was drawing up a law H > to change the native-born requirement to at least 20 years' residence,D > which would open the door for Arnie.  Yes, I think Arnie is a realG > contender.  Remember that when Archie Bunker, in an episode of All in C > the Family from around the time of the 1972 election, said (after F > chastising Meathead for having given money to the McGovern campaign)H > that his vote was a write-in vote for Ronald Reagan, it was a joke and) > greeted with the appropriate laughter.)  > 5 Could you imagine the summer White House in Kufstein?      --  E Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 00:25:05 -0400  From: "Ray" <no@spam.me>; Subject: Re: More on the transitions at OpenVMS Engineering * Message-ID: <xe1Tg.53$nB1.30@newsfe03.lga>   The mind boggles!   ( > which puts an positive spin on events.   "Spin" is an understatement!  6 > Mr Hurd is following a strategy of reducing costs by > restructuring the workforce.   So far, so good...  A > In the long term this should really be seen as a GOOD thing for C > OpenVMS. Consider that most of us in engineering and services are F > getting fairly old! Where are the young replacements for the future?H > Although it's called "WFR" it really isn't, as every person who leavesG > from Nashua or Sydney is replaced by *several* people in the new call F > centres and engineering hubs. These are young, keen graduates, readyG > and able to take on the maintenance and development OpenVMS products.   + There is so much wrong with this statement.   I If these "young, keen graduates" were actually "ready and able to take on B the maintenance and development of OpenVMS products", why would it5 take "*several*" of them to replace one VMS engineer?   F "young replacements for the future" is another crock. These people areG being hired in those outsourcing centers in India. Perhaps you've heard H about their staff turnover problems? With typical attrition rates of 30%D per year? What kind of knowledge base would you realistically expect to be able to grow out there?   3 > but they won't take very long to get up to speed.   A Never happen. Although it probably won't take very long for those . scripts to get written for your support calls.   > Look at Guy Peleg   A Yes, look at Guy; who has already told us that he had substantial 1 VMS experience before he came to VMS engineering.   H > This way it's far more likely there will be engineers into the future.  G It is "far more likely" that the VMS cash cow is being, not milked, but D gutted, to provide investment resources for things HP considers moreH strategic. Like blades, or virtualization. Gee, where is the engineering for these being done?   ( > Without revenue, the product WILL die.  H The product will die with or without revenue going to HP. Although thereB may be new releases to support new hardware and fix bugs, Nemo wasK the last release that will have any substantial new software functionality. H VMS revenues have been subsidizing other activities for quite some time.C If you want your support dollars to support VMS, you are better off  contracting with Guy or Hoff.   H VMS lost a *substantial* number of people in this last round. I've heardE numbers like 25% overall, with some subgroups being hit 50%. And it's  not going to stop there.  I I've been considering a posting for some time, asking people here if they E would finally believe that HP had no intentions of keeping VMS around 8 when Hoff and Sue got laid off. (Sue still has her job.)  J I would *love* to be proved wrong. I would *love* it if this person's takeF were to be true. But the wholesale firing of these talented, dedicated@ people breaks my heart. VMS just went below critical mass. ThereC aren't the people left to do a real knowledge transfer to those new ) rookies even if HP were serious about it.   D But I guess we can take comfort in the fact that VMS would have died anyway when Itanium dies.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:42:38 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Normal temperature for DS10L ? , Message-ID: <451C4FD3.96315F70@teksavvy.com>  H When powered off, my new DS10L is about 25  (STATUS at the RMC> prompt, or SHOW POWER at >>> prompt)  G When powered on, it quickly rises to 44 and then slowly rises to about  49 in a couple of hours.   6 An alert is set to be made at 55 and shutdown at 60.    & Are there temperatures pretty normal ?  G All fans seems to be operating. And the air coming out the back is hot.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:46:42 -0400 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> + Subject: Re: Normal temperature for DS10L ? I Message-ID: <8660a3a10609282046g459c8866pcd132733905243db@mail.gmail.com>   ( ------=_Part_1939_26727203.1159501602493; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  Content-Disposition: inline   : On 9/28/06, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote: > L > When powered off, my new DS10L is about 25=B0  (STATUS at the RMC> prompt= ,  > or SHOW POWER at >>> prompt) > K > When powered on, it quickly rises to 44=B0 and then slowly rises to about  > 49=B0 in a couple of hours.  > < > An alert is set to be made at 55=B0 and shutdown at 60=B0. >  > ( > Are there temperatures pretty normal ? > I > All fans seems to be operating. And the air coming out the back is hot.  >   K Those tiny-ass fans sure DO push a lot of heat out the back of that sucker. 4 (Of course the squirrel-cage fan inside helps a lot)  K I can only imagine what it would be like to stand behind a rack of 35 or so  DS10Ls.   , You could probably bake cookies back there..  G Oh- are those temperature measurements Fahrenheit, Celsius or Canadian?   L And did you RTFM?  I believe ambient and operating temp ranges are in there= .    : - )    WWWebb --=20  Ajilon Consulting  Site resident at Quest Diagnostics = first.x.last@f$edit(contents of previous line,"COMPRESS").com   ( ------=_Part_1939_26727203.1159501602493+ Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  Content-Disposition: inline   L On 9/28/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">JF Mezei</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=L o:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com">jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com</a>&gt; wrote:=L <div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=L tyle=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e= x; padding-left: 1ex;"> L When powered off, my new DS10L is about 25=B0&nbsp;&nbsp;(STATUS at the RMC=L &gt; prompt,<br>or SHOW POWER at &gt;&gt;&gt; prompt)<br><br>When powered o=L n, it quickly rises to 44=B0 and then slowly rises to about<br>49=B0 in a c= ouple of hours. L <br><br>An alert is set to be made at 55=B0 and shutdown at 60=B0.<br><br><=L br>Are there temperatures pretty normal ?<br><br>All fans seems to be opera=L ting. And the air coming out the back is hot.<br></blockquote></div><br>Tho=H se tiny-ass fans sure DO push a lot of heat out the back of that sucker.L <br>(Of course the squirrel-cage fan inside helps a lot)<br><br>I can only =L imagine what it would be like to stand behind a rack of 35 or so DS10Ls.<br=L ><br>You could probably bake cookies back there..<br><br>Oh- are those temp=5 erature measurements Fahrenheit, Celsius or Canadian? L <br><br>And did you RTFM?&nbsp; I believe ambient and operating temp ranges=L  are in there.<br><br>: - )<br><br clear=3D"all">WWWebb<br>-- <br>Ajilon Co=L nsulting<br>Site resident at <br>Quest Diagnostics<br>first.x.last@f$edit(c=2 ontents of previous line,&quot;COMPRESS&quot;).com  * ------=_Part_1939_26727203.1159501602493--   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:54:53 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> + Subject: Re: Normal temperature for DS10L ? , Message-ID: <451C9905.83444187@teksavvy.com>   William Webb wrote: E > Those tiny-ass fans sure DO push a lot of heat out the back of that 	 > sucker.   @ Yeah, but the fact that the air is allowed to get THAT hot is an6 indication that perhaps the cooling is not sufficient.  H Furthermore, the fact that my temperature slowlty rises is pretty scary.? I have let it get to 49 so far, and the warnings start at 55.   G > I can only imagine what it would be like to stand behind a rack of 35  > or so DS10Ls.   C A mixture of extremely cold compureer room "wind" and extremely hot 
 "DS10L" wind.   . > You could probably bake cookies back there..  - I was going to mention heating croissants :-)   ? > Oh- are those temperature measurements Fahrenheit, Celsius or  > Canadian?   F They' canadian temperaturtes. The machine's hardware has a buit-in GPSG and world geopolitical maps and when you power it on, it determines its 4 location and reports temperatures in local units :-)  G BTW, VMS 8.2 still thinks there is a "Yukon" time zone in Canada. There H is no such thing. Yukon operates in Pacific Time Zone (Like Vancouver or
 Los Angeles).   G > And did you RTFM?  I believe ambient and operating temp ranges are in  > there.  H I just found the manual you sent me. But generally ambinat/operating areC the the same temps that are deep inside the box. (BTW, where is the ) thermometre in the DS10L ? Near the CPU ?    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2006 16:02:12 -04003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> < Subject: OpenVMS support contracts for hobbyists: A scenario. Message-ID: <mddac4j92uz.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  2 Just blue-skying here for a moment.  Bear with me.  G The point has been made any number of times that continuing support for J (Open)VMS relies on revenue from support contracts, which are probably tooI expensive for the average hobbyist.[1]  On the other hand, a hobbyist may H be the one to find a corner-case error before someone running a businessB on the OS, because she has the time to play with all the features.  L Does anyone think that HP would be amenable to a group, such as a DECUS LUG,K purchasing a cover contract under which SPRs could be submitted.  I envison J the members of such a group pooling resources to pay for the contract, and& everyone's system being named therein.  C Would such a scheme have a prayer of succeeding with HP management?   M                                                                 Rich Alderson   M [1] Extrapolating from contract costs for Tops-20 and Ultrix in their heyday.  --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2006 16:32:26 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) @ Subject: Re: OpenVMS support contracts for hobbyists: A scenario3 Message-ID: <SFIb0F3gIQhj@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <mddac4j92uz.fsf@panix5.panix.com>, Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:4 > Just blue-skying here for a moment.  Bear with me. > I > The point has been made any number of times that continuing support for L > (Open)VMS relies on revenue from support contracts, which are probably tooK > expensive for the average hobbyist.[1]  On the other hand, a hobbyist may J > be the one to find a corner-case error before someone running a businessD > on the OS, because she has the time to play with all the features. > N > Does anyone think that HP would be amenable to a group, such as a DECUS LUG,M > purchasing a cover contract under which SPRs could be submitted.  I envison L > the members of such a group pooling resources to pay for the contract, and( > everyone's system being named therein.   No.   E > Would such a scheme have a prayer of succeeding with HP management?   H I don't see any benefit from HP spending effort setting such a thing up.D The same thing happens currently unofficially anyway, with supportedD sites submitting (important) shortcomings they first hear about fromC unsupported sites.  The parenthetical serves as a filter - you have @ to convince someone from a supported site it is worthwhile for a particular problem.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:58:51 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> @ Subject: Re: OpenVMS support contracts for hobbyists: A scenario9 Message-ID: <NPKdnfc94qcJ3oHYnZ2dnUVZ_oOdnZ2d@libcom.com>    Rich Alderson wrote:4 > Just blue-skying here for a moment.  Bear with me. > I > The point has been made any number of times that continuing support for L > (Open)VMS relies on revenue from support contracts, which are probably tooK > expensive for the average hobbyist.[1]  On the other hand, a hobbyist may J > be the one to find a corner-case error before someone running a businessD > on the OS, because she has the time to play with all the features. > N > Does anyone think that HP would be amenable to a group, such as a DECUS LUG,M > purchasing a cover contract under which SPRs could be submitted.  I envison L > the members of such a group pooling resources to pay for the contract, and( > everyone's system being named therein. > E > Would such a scheme have a prayer of succeeding with HP management?  > O >                                                                 Rich Alderson  > O > [1] Extrapolating from contract costs for Tops-20 and Ultrix in their heyday.   H I wasn't aware that there was a requirement to have a support agreement D in order to file an SPR.  I'm willing to be corrected on this point.  F What I would agree with is that without a support contract you cannot I expect to get a 'fix' from HP.  Even if they fix the problem, they would  5 not have any obligation to provide you with that fix.   H I'm going to expect that if a bug is reported, regardless of the source E of the report, that VMS engineering is going to want to do something  E about the problem.  It could always affect a customer with a support  4 contract, and a proactive stance should be expected.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2006 16:11:29 -0500. From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks)@ Subject: Re: OpenVMS support contracts for hobbyists: A scenario, Message-ID: <f8QAJGF9eJM1@cuebid.zko.hp.com>  N > Does anyone think that HP would be amenable to a group, such as a DECUS LUG,M > purchasing a cover contract under which SPRs could be submitted.  I envison L > the members of such a group pooling resources to pay for the contract, and( > everyone's system being named therein.  E What's the benefit to the average hobbyist?  There are already enough F informal mechanisms for folks without support contracts to report bugs5 to us, and when that happens, they tend to get fixed.   E Also, back when I was a customer, a software support contract covered B specific systems by serial number.  In other works, there's not a L "pay one price" mechanism, whereby there'd be no added cost for more systems added above a certain number.   H There is also the issue of what versions are supported.  V7.3-2 is goingI off "standard" support at the end of the calendar year.  Support will be  J available under the "prior version support" scheme, which is an added cost above "standard" support.   M From an engineering standpoint, when we fix a bug (for example, in V8.3), the J fix will generally be "backported" as far back as the oldest version underJ "standard support".  In other words, there will likely be a limited numberJ of fixes for V7.3-2 after the new year begins.  That's not always the caseJ (it varies from engineer to engineer and component to component), but it's usually the case.    --    H Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2006 11:28:32 -0700' From: "tadamsmar" <tadamsmar@yahoo.com> D Subject: Options for the future of VMS systems after last order dateB Message-ID: <1159468112.322493.66880@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  ; I see that the last alphaserver order date is Oct 27, 2006.   D We have VMS systems running on DS10s and few older model Alphas.  We are running 7.3-2 VMS,: our own applications, and using some third party software.  5 What are our options for replacing systems that fail?   E I guess we can always get service calls to replace boards to keep the + current systems going for up to five years.   9 What does the after market/used systems market look like?   C Are there other options to avoid some of the headaches of portation ? with some third parties that may not be support VMS on Itanium?    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2006 13:58:24 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) H Subject: Re: Options for the future of VMS systems after last order date3 Message-ID: <3xSGHhP$DKgz@eisner.encompasserve.org>   l In article <1159468112.322493.66880@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "tadamsmar" <tadamsmar@yahoo.com> writes:  = > I see that the last alphaserver order date is Oct 27, 2006.   H    We have a VAX 11/785 that we can still get service for.  We're hopingD    to replace it with a VAX 4000 series that we know we can also get    service for.   H    I'm not in the least bit worried about getting service for my 14 year3    old DEC 3000 (a turbochannel model with an EV4).    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:45:15 -0400 < From: "Island Computers, D B Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com>H Subject: Re: Options for the future of VMS systems after last order date0 Message-ID: <12ho9iirppaoef2@news.supernews.com>  F We are the largest seller of DS10 systems in the USA outside (or maybe inclusive of) HP.   J We have brand new power supplies and fans, switches motherboards disks etc for them! Even down to the scsi led cable !     H As long as we are in business we will support the Alphaserver DS10 466 & 617Mhz. J We have about 100+ systems under next day parts replacement contract right< now, and after you read this the numbers will hopefully grow   David    --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X251  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@islandco.com Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html   2 "tadamsmar" <tadamsmar@yahoo.com> wrote in message< news:1159468112.322493.66880@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...= > I see that the last alphaserver order date is Oct 27, 2006.  > F > We have VMS systems running on DS10s and few older model Alphas.  We > are running 7.3-2 VMS,< > our own applications, and using some third party software. > 7 > What are our options for replacing systems that fail?  > G > I guess we can always get service calls to replace boards to keep the - > current systems going for up to five years.  > ; > What does the after market/used systems market look like?  > E > Are there other options to avoid some of the headaches of portation A > with some third parties that may not be support VMS on Itanium?  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:02:51 -0400 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>H Subject: Re: Options for the future of VMS systems after last order date: Message-ID: <451BF22B.8874.1CFFFFF@squayle.insight.rr.com>  ) On 28 Sep 2006 at 11:28, tadamsmar wrote: 7 > What are our options for replacing systems that fail?  > E > Are there other options to avoid some of the headaches of portation A > with some third parties that may not be support VMS on Itanium?   4 You can move to CHARON-AXP, which emulates an Alpha:  (   http://www.stanq.com/charon-alpha.html  D [Shameless Plug Alert (tm) -- I am a CHARON-AXP reseller.  And I do 
 VAX, too!]
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------8 Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA < stan-at-stanq-dot-com   http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html) "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:04:39 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> H Subject: Re: Options for the future of VMS systems after last order date, Message-ID: <451C46EF.713671E2@teksavvy.com>  C Another option is to get modern 8086 servers and emulate Alpha with  Charron Alpha product.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:36:26 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: VMS 8.2 complaint: screen cleared at login., Message-ID: <451C4054.D1A91F94@teksavvy.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:G > I do not use SYS$SYLOGIN, but I do not get (or want) welcome messages ; > for every DECterm window when I log into the workstation.   ! Sorry, I didn't specify my setup.   G DECTERM on node1 gives me $, from which I SET HOST/DTE TTA2 which plugs 0 me via a serial cable to a serial port on node2.  H So on node2, it appears as a very conventional terminal connecting via aB serial port. And the DECTERm is simply processing escape sequences5 coming through the SET HOST/DTE image to the display.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:50:40 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: VMS 8.2 complaint: screen cleared at login., Message-ID: <451C43A9.3BEFA55C@teksavvy.com>   FredK wrote:L > Under the SET TERM/INQ=OLD (the old behavior) - the screen would be forcedA > to 80 x 24 unless you provided the /WIDTH and /PAGE qualifiers.   E On VAX VMS  7.2 (and I think this chenced sometimes between 5.5-2 and E 7.2, I think it sent an escape sequence to position the cursor at the A bottom right of the screen and then another escape to ask for the B cursor's position, allowing set term/inq to determine screen size.  ? I know because one of the PSION's I have has a non-compliant VT > emulator, and VMS would determine its screen width was line 126 characters wide ! (and that didn't happen under 5.5-2)    H This is interesting because this installation of 8.2 on an alpha was theE first "truly new" install I did in many many many moons so getting to F see what the default files are like is interesting. Took me a while toD figure out what was causing the screen to clear (thought it was some; default sys$welcome which isn't actually setup by default).   C Interesting to see some references to Microvax IIs still present in  SYLOGIN on an Alpha :-)     G This isn't a show stopper because I will bring my existing sylogin from F my VAXes over to the alpha. But for new customers, this feature may beD quite difficult to understand/debug, so their first contact with VMS7 after having installed it would be somewhat unpleasant.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 00:22:28 -0400 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> 8 Subject: Re: VMS 8.2 complaint: screen cleared at login.I Message-ID: <8660a3a10609282122y12989bc3o2fa1317264f574e1@mail.gmail.com>   ( ------=_Part_2203_12052297.1159503748996; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  Content-Disposition: inline   : On 9/28/06, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote: >  > FredK wrote:G > > Under the SET TERM/INQ=OLD (the old behavior) - the screen would be  > forcedC > > to 80 x 24 unless you provided the /WIDTH and /PAGE qualifiers.  > G > On VAX VMS  7.2 (and I think this chenced sometimes between 5.5-2 and G > 7.2, I think it sent an escape sequence to position the cursor at the C > bottom right of the screen and then another escape to ask for the D > cursor's position, allowing set term/inq to determine screen size. > A > I know because one of the PSION's I have has a non-compliant VT @ > emulator, and VMS would determine its screen width was line 128 > characters wide ! (and that didn't happen under 5.5-2) >  > J > This is interesting because this installation of 8.2 on an alpha was theG > first "truly new" install I did in many many many moons so getting to H > see what the default files are like is interesting. Took me a while toF > figure out what was causing the screen to clear (thought it was some= > default sys$welcome which isn't actually setup by default).       
 Truly new! ROTFL! Duh!   F We know too well the profound antiquity of your other hardware, jf !!!   WWWebb    C Interesting to see some references to Microvax IIs still present in  > SYLOGIN on an Alpha :-)  >  > I > This isn't a show stopper because I will bring my existing sylogin from H > my VAXes over to the alpha. But for new customers, this feature may beF > quite difficult to understand/debug, so their first contact with VMS9 > after having installed it would be somewhat unpleasant.  >        --   Ajilon Consulting  Site resident at Quest Diagnostics = first.x.last@f$edit(contents of previous line,"COMPRESS").com   ( ------=_Part_2203_12052297.1159503748996+ Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  Content-Disposition: inline   A<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/28/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">JF Mezei</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com">jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">  FredK wrote:<br>&gt; Under the SET TERM/INQ=OLD (the old behavior) - the screen would be forced<br>&gt; to 80 x 24 unless you provided the /WIDTH and /PAGE qualifiers.<br><br>On VAX VMS&nbsp;&nbsp;7.2 (and I think this chenced sometimes between   5.5-2 and<br>7.2, I think it sent an escape sequence to position the cursor at the<br>bottom right of the screen and then another escape to ask for the<br>cursor's position, allowing set term/inq to determine screen size.  <br><br>I know because one of the PSION's I have has a non-compliant VT<br>emulator, and VMS would determine its screen width was line 12<br>characters wide ! (and that didn't happen under 5.5-2)<br><br><br>This is interesting because this installation of  8.2 on an alpha was the<br>first &quot;truly new&quot; install I did in many many many moons so getting to<br>see what the default files are like is interesting. Took me a while to<br>figure out what was causing the screen to clear (thought it was some <br>default sys$welcome which isn't actually setup by default).</blockquote><div><br><br>Truly new!&nbsp; <br>ROTFL! Duh!&nbsp; <br><br>We know too well the profound antiquity of your other hardware, jf !!!<br><br>WWWebb<br>&nbsp;</div> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Interesting to see some references to Microvax IIs still present in<br>SYLOGIN on an Alpha :-)  <br><br><br>This isn't a show stopper because I will bring my existing sylogin from<br>my VAXes over to the alpha. But for new customers, this feature may be<br>quite difficult to understand/debug, so their first contact with VMS  <br>after having installed it would be somewhat unpleasant.<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Ajilon Consulting<br>Site resident at <br>Quest Diagnostics<br>first.x.last@f$edit(contents of previous line,&quot;COMPRESS&quot;).com   * ------=_Part_2203_12052297.1159503748996--   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 00:32:59 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: VMS 8.2 complaint: screen cleared at login., Message-ID: <451CA1F1.B40012A3@teksavvy.com>   William Webb wrote:  > Truly new!
 > ROTFL! Duh!  > H > We know too well the profound antiquity of your other hardware, jf !!!    D Well, the system disk for a VAX 4000-600 dates back from 1987 in theE microvms 4.6 days. It has moved from system to system. And since only F VMS upgrades were applied, the original files in sys$manager (sylogin,+ systartup_v5/vms  etc) survived since then.   E This alpha is an install on a blank disk from the actual installation A script. So now I have to perform all the customisations on it and P install software one by one since, obviously, I can't just move VAX executables.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 10:29:57 -0400 , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>K Subject: Re: [OVMS-Alert] OSU HTTP Server System Info Disclosure Weaknesses , Message-ID: <451bdc66$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: + > Does anyone here want to comment on this?  > K > A quick test with my server couldn't reproduce either problem, but maybe   > I'm missing something.  B    I commented on the general report in one of the cross-postings.P    Over on Eisner or Deathrow, I've forgotten which it was I saw this posted on.0    (My take: Yawn.  :-)   Details in the reply.)N    As for whether or not it could be duplicated, I don't know.  Haven't tried.8    I'd take it to the OSU mailing list, as a suggestion.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:03:48 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)K Subject: Re: [OVMS-Alert] OSU HTTP Server System Info Disclosure Weaknesses $ Message-ID: <efh9r4$tb5$5@online.de>  F In article <dT4otTCDC0oS@vms.mppmu.mpg.de>, huber@NIRWANA-mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber) writes:    j > In article <effvav$ef1$1@news.BelWue.DE>, gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) writes:{ > > In article <efeqau$vf7$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: - > >>Does anyone here want to comment on this? M > >>A quick test with my server couldn't reproduce either problem, but maybe   > >>I'm missing something. > > G > > It looks as if it is due to a misconfiguration. What I get here is:  >   5 > I second that (try http://wwwvms.mppmu.mpg.de/*) ,  I > and the only OSU HTTPD default configuration which reveals directories  E > is the one allowing directory browsing when there is no index page.   H And the reason to do this is that one WANTS to allow directory browsing.  ? > But this can be changed easyly, and is well documented in the  > http_directory.conf template. ? > Using the OSU server since years, I have no reason to change.   ! I second (or is that third) that!    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.534 ************************